BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Transhuman Technologies.

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
Evil Scientist
08:46 / 12.04.07
Transhumanism is defined by Wikipedia as: an international intellectual and cultural movement supporting the use of new sciences and technologies to enhance human mental and physical abilities and aptitudes, and ameliorate what it regards as undesirable and unnecessary aspects of the human condition, such as stupidity, suffering, disease, ageing and involuntary death. It's a subject that I have a great interest in and have been an armchair supporter of for quite some time now.

The term "transhumanism" covers a great many schools of thought, but all of them tend to focus on the use of a distinct set of technologies which could be utilised to achieve the goal stated above. The umbrella term for these technologies is NBIC - Nanotechnology, Biotechnology, Information Technology, and Cognitive Science (Robotics and Artificial Intelligence are also sometimes included).

This thread is intended to be a discussion forum for all aspects of transhumanism. But I think that the primary focus of it should be to discuss the NBIC technologies and how they could be applied in society.

An intended secondary function of this thread is to act in a similar role to the New Developments in... threads. New developments in technologies relevant to this thread can be posted here. But, as with the New Developments threads I suggest that we don't just drop a link and a single sentance. Explain why you think it's relevant and what your views are on it's possible applications.

For instance: Woman with bionic arm regains sense of touch.

This represents a massive step forward in the development of cybernetic implants. Although we're unlikely to all rush out and get a bionic arm tomorrow, it's the advance in neural control of implanted technology that I'm most impressed with (as well as tactile sensors that are, subjectively, nearly as good as the real thing). Whilst there is always going to be a "Big Brother" vibe to the thought of people with implanted information technologies, I for one find the thought of having the ability to interface directly with technology to be an intriguing prospect. An implant that combined the functions of a personal computer and mobile phone would be handy indeed.

A few links for you:

Various wiki pages on transhumanism and related technologies.

World Transhumanist Association.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
10:18 / 12.04.07
Ayay for Evil Scientist!

Great topic - one that I also has been eyeing for a decade or so now..

Before I retire to gather some cogent thoughts, a question: Should we have place here for a debate on the feasibility of say mind uploading, along the lines of a philosophical old-skool AI debate, or would that derail things? I'm sure there's an AI thread lurking around here somewhere in any case. If not, Headshop could accomodate one.

Ooreet! Back later.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:51 / 12.04.07
Should we have place here for a debate on the feasibility of say mind uploading, along the lines of a philosophical old-skool AI debate, or would that derail things?

I think that Mind Downloading can be discussed here certainly. It's one of the technologies that Transhumanists tend to talk about when postulating how transhumanity is going to develop.

In my view the most likely method of downloading a human conciousness would be serial sectioning. Essentially the brain is taken apart a slice at a time and subjected to high resolution scanning, the end result would be a computer simulation of the brain running on appropriate software. Obviously the system would need to be able to emulate a human brain down to the molecular level (and perhaps beyond).

The problem with this form of downloading is, obviously, the necessary destruction of the donor brain. It creates a copy run on the computer system (I would argue that's not a big deal, to me all that would be lost is continuity). So it'd be a one-shot deal rather than the (more preferable in my view) storing regular "snapshots" of one's mind.

It's a tough area to research though. Finding someone to volunteer for the first live trials would be an ethical nightmare.
 
 
Spaniel
14:41 / 12.04.07
What about mapping the brain using nanobots? Would that work as an alternative to slicing and dicing? And if it could work in theory would it be feasible in practice?
 
 
astrojax69
02:02 / 13.04.07
until recently, i worked with a centre that was exploring the concepts underlying enhancing creativity and success in the mind's structure, and the centre fed into a company developing - in part from the centre's research - ways to incorporate neural feedback into software, so brains could directly and non-consciously affect the operation of programs. they're making software that runs on thoughts and emotions.

and the centre i worked for used magnetic pulse stimulation (rTMS) to disinhibit areas of the brain so as to allow non-conscious processes to the fore, such as inhibiting concepts to allow access to details. this facilitated novel ways of seeing the world, which is a critical component of creativity (they also published a first quantifiable measure/assessment of creativity.


these sort of interventions, to me, signal a future that will have all sorts of devices that enhance our natural capacities. can't wait!

look forward to more discussion - and yep, second that it is a great idea for a thread, evil. you bad!
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:02 / 13.04.07
What about mapping the brain using nanobots?

Oh certainly possible, and theoretically there would be no loss of continuity if the process was performed on an active brain replacing tissue with technology gradually. But nanotechnological methods of downloading would be require much more of an advance in technology.

That said, ethically speaking, it'd probably be better to wait for a method of downloading that didn't automatically kill the person participating in the process.

ways to incorporate neural feedback into software, so brains could directly and non-consciously affect the operation of programs. they're making software that runs on thoughts and emotions.

Sounds pretty funky. I'm very interested in developments of technologies that would allow a person to "re-program" themselves. Obviously there would be a ton of risks introducing what would, effectively, be a form of mind control at our species current level of development. But in an ideal future society people would be able to have more control over their mental states (ie setting yourself to "work" on the days you really didn't fancy getting out of bed).
 
 
jentacular dreams
09:52 / 13.04.07
What about artificial neural networks? Surely with a long period of observation, a sufficiently (i.e. very very very etc.) powerful computer program could predict how a person would behave (both interms of decisions and how different areas of the brain 'light up') in any given scenario. The model wouldn't be the person in question (any more than the sliced brain would), but it might be impossible to tell the difference between the behaviour of the program and the brain.
 
 
Red Concrete
11:02 / 13.04.07
I don't think we'll manage to reproduce the brain's function electronically in the forseeable future. And by that I mean many hundreds of years from now. I don't think the technology (if it comes) will be recognisable to us.

A simple electronic representation of neuronal tracts can't be enough (which no one here has claimed, of course!). You would probably have to include full chemical make-up (and it has been speculated that sub-atomic make-up is important for consciousness, imagine modelling that...), cerebral CSF and blood flow, chemical exchange with the exterior with feedback mechanisms at all sorts of levels, which leads to the need for a full metabolic model, which leads to the need for a proteome model, which leads to the full transcriptome and genome, dynamically modelled...

The senses, and therefore a representation of one's own body as sensed by the brain, and of a reasonable environment (remembering that brains are pretty good at spotting fake environments). You might have to tie gravity into movement of the model body, for sleep or for other unknown reasons. And probably a host of things that I can't think of, and even more that we know nothing about.

Also, we would never know if we have got it right - it's unfalsifiable. If you put someone in a computer, and ask them "How does that feel?" And they say "Fine", what does that tell you?

Well, I didn't mean to veer the discussion into the philosophical... sorry!
 
 
Closed for Business Time
11:09 / 13.04.07
Just a quickie - gotta meet the missus for lunch.

As regards mind-uploading -

I believe one facet that has been overlooked here is that research into the role of hormonal activity as well as extra-cerebral neurology (especially gastroenterology and psychoneuroimmunology) suggests that critical parts of reasoning, emoting and perception take place in sites outside the brain, especially the gut.

Sorry about the from-on-high tone here, I promise to dig up some refs and links asap (I think Damasio's somatic marker hypothesis could fit into here.. more later!). However, what becomes of mind-uploading if the mind is not = the brain? Whole-body uploading?

In haste...
 
 
Closed for Business Time
11:10 / 13.04.07
Or just what Red Concrete said! Damned x-post...
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:34 / 13.04.07
A simple electronic representation of neuronal tracts can't be enough (which no one here has claimed, of course!). You would probably have to include full chemical make-up (and it has been speculated that sub-atomic make-up is important for consciousness, imagine modelling that...), cerebral CSF and blood flow, chemical exchange with the exterior with feedback mechanisms at all sorts of levels, which leads to the need for a full metabolic model, which leads to the need for a proteome model, which leads to the full transcriptome and genome, dynamically modelled...

Essentially, running emulation software would require a computer with processing power much greater than we currently possess. But yes, a lot of the people who advocate the development of mind downloading have a very mechanistic view of the brain, along the lines that sentience is a program being run on the brain. So if conciousness is an effect of sub-atomic interactions then that would certainly be hard to model in simulation.

It wouldn't be necessary to simulate every aspect of the body's function though. All you would have to do is trick the simulated brain into believing these things were happening. It wouldn't need to be anywhere near as complicated as constructing an entire virtual physiology. Things such as breathing and heartbeat could be included to ensure the brain didn't experience drowning sensations.

There's a possibility that initial infomorphic humans wouldn't have access to emotion experience because, as Red and Mos rightly point out a lot of that is tied into hormonal activity. However, as the initial stimulus that provokes an emotional response is registered in the brain and the end result is due to chemicals affecting the brain I don't see that it would be that big of a stumbling block.
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
12:40 / 13.04.07
A friend of mine works for a company which does very similar things, Astro, re: emotional feedback to machines. I wonder if it's the same one (Emotiv Systems)?

I am terribly interested in transhuman stuff, because it fits in with what I currently feel is my eventual area of work, which is interface design for people with disabilities. All the advances in mental control of machinery/cybernetics/AI etc which will enable able-bodied people to do more cool stuff will let people who have previously only been able to move a mouse with their tongue do all sorts of things which were previously impossible.

That's my soft, squishy non-science feelings on the issue, anyway.

I have no links on the issue right now, but I think Augmented Reality is going to be a large part of future technological development, and good AR is something that features pretty heavily in any kind of vaguely transhuman literature or thinking (i.e. built-in HUDs, data overlays on vision and extrasensory (from the usual human set) perception, like being aware visually or through a tactile sense of magnetic fields/data pathways/what have you.

AR is also a really easy field to get into, because a huge amount of cutting-edge academic resources are open to use by anyone with a computer and a webcam (I lied about having no links: ARToolKit)
 
 
Red Concrete
13:38 / 13.04.07
It wouldn't be necessary to simulate every aspect of the body's function though. All you would have to do is trick the simulated brain into believing these things were happening. It wouldn't need to be anywhere near as complicated as constructing an entire virtual physiology.

Can I take one small part of what I mentioned as an example? Vascularisation is an important part of neuronal function - essentially for oxygen and glucose supply, though maybe other nutrients, and endocrine/paracrine receptors probably are important too. That's easily modelled in space. But something like blood pressure also now becomes important to the model, as it will affect delivery of these substances. And it is possible that daily rhythms in activity and food consumption affecting blood pressure have an important role in brain activity. Add in a few more factors by which blood pressure affects the brain, and suddenly the most parsimonious model might be one that models the entire physiology.

It's easy to model blood vessels in the brain, and probably "easy" (theoretically, assuming lots of computing power) to model blood pressure in each vessel. But the problem becomes exponentially more complex (and computationally intensive) when you try to model the interactions. Especially given that internal processing in the brain usually affects behaviour, which in turn affects physiology and brain function via the senses.

Complex models are very hard to calibrate, and if you want them to really mimic real life you should include every relevant parameter. How much should daily rhythms in blood pressure affect neuronal glucose consumption, and how does this impact thought processes? It depends on nuclear and mitochondrial genetics as well as a "snapshot" state of a person's metabolism in the three dimensions of space, plus movement/energy vectors.

Which leads to another point - what if a "computerised" person has a never-before encountered experience? One that in real life would lead to a never-before activated gene being expressed, and consequent changes to the proteome and to neuronal wiring. I suspect that you kind of have to model everything...
 
 
abraxas223
14:23 / 13.04.07
Another scenario for consideration regarding the uploading of consciousness:

What if it is a slow process? First we will have an interface for the brain; probably at first it will be a download only process (i.e. capturing, in real-time, what a person “sees” and storing it on a digital medium), then a simple two way interface (the digital version of what one person saw can be uploaded directly to another person optical cortex), and then quickly increasing the interface complexity, allowing to store and retrieve “memories”, and even re-routing whole process to external devices (math co-processors, for one).

As more and more storage and processing is moved outside of the skull, the importance of the organic brain decreases. And, in theory at least, there is no limits to what can be added “outside”, there will be a point where the dead of the organic brain would not matter much to the composite mind, in terms of change of external behaviour. And at no point the continuity would be lost.
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:27 / 13.04.07
I'd agree that if you want a 100% accurate model of X, you kind of have to build X, but low level innaccuracies are surely an accepted aspect of models? Obviously as the life of the copy would be ideally 'eternal' the chances of said event cropping up are quite high, surely this could be mitigated somewhat through environmental control or a system restore function?

I'd also like to invoke the observer effect. If you copied someone's mind, both the individual and the copy would thereafter be aware that they had been copied. This would mean that in some sense, both the orignal and the copy would probably be slightly different than before the copying event. Also I'd be surprised if the knowledge that one was in effect immortal, and also no longer unique didn't have quite an impact on the psyche (or at least, that's what pulp sci fi has led me to believe).

Of your scenario above - changes in bp and glucose content etc, put me in mind of slight changes in osmolarity also maybe performing a function in neural behavior? Hmm, a weekend of interesting musings lie ahead methinks.
 
 
astrojax69
21:38 / 13.04.07
sure, red frog, allan snyder fed his work into tan le's ideas (with her as a young australian of the year, they were ideally suited to a partnership!) and he is still very much a close consultant, cited in most of the press emotiv is getting, including in the wall street journal!

as to the thread more substantially, i don't know about 'up-loading' of consciousness. i agree that electronic consciousness is a long way off, if at all plausible, in the same sense we have consciousness. that said, down-loading aspects of the mind into software, affecting the result of the program's running, seems a logical next step, provided we can be sure the interface is transposing the ideas we impart in a way that retains their integrity. the fall back is that the integrity is [partly] lost and the result is something entirely unexpected - but this is a good thing! a novel outcome, with projected paths forward from that point to, well, who knows where!

exciting times.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
12:58 / 16.04.07
While in an abstract sense all the above sounds lovely, I'm a bit concerned as to how some of it would work out in a real world sense.

For example, say you have the technology to alter people's genetic code to make them immune to HIV. Now, if I could press a shiny button and everyone in the world would be genetically altered so that it was no longer, that'd be absolutely super, but I assume that isn't how it would work out. Rather, it would presumably be an expensive person-by-person change, and so in both a local and a global sense, it would make it to the rich first, and the poor possibly never at all.

So, what I'm worried about, really, is a kind of unintentional (for the most part, at least) eugenics. Those who are already badly weed on by the world due to their economic position could find themselves at a genetic disadvantage too - which would be a pretty horrible state of affairs, basically.

Am I missing something? Is there someone who could reassure me that the above isn't a possiblity?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:30 / 16.04.07
So, what I'm worried about, really, is a kind of unintentional (for the most part, at least) eugenics. Those who are already badly weed on by the world due to their economic position could find themselves at a genetic disadvantage too - which would be a pretty horrible state of affairs, basically.

Am I missing something? Is there someone who could reassure me that the above isn't a possiblity?


You're entirely right to be concerned by the possible abuses that could be committed via these technologies. It's hard to imagine that, within a capitalist society, anyone other than the super-rich is going to get first dibs to any kind of "immortality" (be it downloading, anti-aging treatments, or cloned organ replacements).

Part of the purpose of this thread is, in my view, to discuss how society could be changed to cope/allow these technologies to be freely available.

The New Scientist had a feature a while back that discussed the possible disparity that could develop if enhancement therapies (be they genetic or pharmaceutical) were available to buy. Well-off families could afford to give their child (for e.g.) concentration-enhancing drugs to improve their learning at school. However less well-off families would be unable to afford them.

How would society ensure that non-enhanced humans were not sidelined by enhanciles? Legislation seems to be one such way. Free enhancement therapies for people on benefits would be a nice thought (but possibly too expensive for current governments to consider).
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:35 / 16.04.07
The article was: Why not become superhuman? Published: 05 August 2006 by Henry T. Greely in magazine issue 2563.

Unfortunately you need to subscribe to get the full article and I am a cheap bar-steward.
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:04 / 16.04.07
It's hard to imagine that, within a capitalist society, anyone other than the super-rich is going to get first dibs to any kind of "immortality" (be it downloading, anti-aging treatments, or cloned organ replacements).

Hmmm, maybe. But as these technologies (be they cybernetic or genetic) become more personalised, the medical cost of maintenance and tailoring pharmaceuticals to specific genotypes will rise as well, meaning the medical costs for nontranshumans should fall in real terms. isn't it likely that such genetic tinkering or technological-hybridisation would probably have much higher long-term health risks in of themselves without regular monitoring and treatments?

I'm also wondering whether there's some cybernetic version of Moore's law, which might mean that such technologies would be more like today's computers and mobile phones etc - the rich always personalising and upgrading, the less well-off making do with more generic or aging technology* (I'd hope that at some point, everyone on the planet would at least be in a position for a basic upgrade should they choose it).

Obviously the current gap between rich and poor is far too large, and I'm not for a minute suggesting that distribution under a pure market forces system would do anything to slow the rate at which that gap widens. But I don't think it would speed up the disparity as quickly as a simple haves vs have-nots model would suggest. Ultimately the best solution to this gap (as with many others) might be a single global democracy, but that's probably another thread.

* I realise that annoying as it is when your phone stops working, it won't compare to how it feels when part of your brain breaks the depreciation barrier. And built in life-spans are a definite danger for cybernetics.
 
 
grant
15:31 / 16.04.07
I'm also wondering whether there's some cybernetic version of Moore's law, which might mean that such technologies would be more like today's computers and mobile phones etc - the rich always personalising and upgrading,

I'm far more curious about what the upper limits of this upgrading actually are. I have not too much faith in the ability of technology to *improve* human physicality (or mentality) as much as change it.

In other words, I can more easily picture wealthy people getting sensory network implants (oh, that tingle means my wife is hungry) than intelligence upgrades.
 
 
Red Concrete
16:12 / 16.04.07
Hmmm, maybe. But as these technologies (be they cybernetic or genetic) become more personalised, the medical cost of maintenance and tailoring pharmaceuticals to specific genotypes will rise as well, meaning the medical costs for nontranshumans should fall in real terms.

Medicine is currently, and slowly, moving towards customizing medication according to genotype. The most advanced area is probably in cancer genetics, for example using gene expression arrays to try to prognose or direct treatment (e.g. PubMed link, link, link) But pharmacogenomics is a big and very rapidly growing field, with in my opinion not much public debate about its ramifications. Anyway it is likely to be expensive to customise treatment to genotype, for at least the next decade or three.

If genetic alterations are made to people in order to enhance or pre-emptivly cure, you are either eliminating these costs for them, or reducing the costs since they're already worked up. And arguably increasing cost for the more genetically variable "rabble", who still need to be genotyped, and have the custom therapies made.
 
 
jentacular dreams
11:11 / 17.04.07
See now I'm not quite sure that's true totally true though. Whilst pharmacogenomics is slowly becoming a big thing, at the moment there are a very limited number of alleles present within the genome, and whilst things like splice variation and receptor di/tri(etc)merisation increases this variability a lot, we a lot less variable genetically than most species. With the advent of customisable genomes I would expect that to change quite a lot (indeed, if engineering genomes did become the norm for some section/strata of society, it would probably start with the blastocyst, so parents would no longer even need to be genetically compatible.

The reason personalised medicine is so crucial in oncology is largely due to the majority of cancers being produced by mutations in genes. As you introduce new genes, you encounter new possible problems. Increased lifespan = increased likelihood of mutations cropping up in a genome (all other thing being equal). And there tends to be trade-offs in biology*, which makes me think that overcoming these will take more treatment. Even though people will likely be altered so as to eliminate a lot of the (proto-)oncogenes, heart disease-risk alleles, etc., I think the introduction of new genes will probably balance this out somewhat. Of course, given that cost is likely to be related to how many genes you want altered (with different companies holding the patent** to each one) a genetic middle-class might arise, with none of the bad genes, but none of the new ones. Over time, as these new genes patents ran out, they would get cheaper, becoming more accessible, and the opportunity for GM would trickle down the price range. Companies might even start selling some genes, such as minimum breast cancer risk as loss leaders to draw people in.

So yes, you're right modified people will be lost costly to genotype at the point of treatment as, barring mutation, it will have all been done as part of the engineering process. So that cost will have already been paid for (though it may have to be repeated if any disease is thought to have a genetic component), not eliminated entirely. But I believe that genotyping is a limited cost field. There is a maximum possible cost, which will slowly fall as technology advances. Treatment on the other hand has no nominal limit to possible cost, as it's ultimately a fight against death (which in my opinion is why the NHS could quite happily swallow global GDP and still have room for more) and entropy always wins through in the end.

Grant re the sensory network implants - surely its only a short step from there to something approaching gestalt consciousness. I'd suggest though that the primary limiting factor is how much humanity we want to retain.

* For example, species which grow quickly tend to be rather succeptible to damage/have trouble with repair, horses legs have trouble healing if broken, fir tree branches will not be replaced if removed.

** If a novel gene is designed, given that it is (represented by) a sequence of letters, could it arguably be filed under a copyright as opposed to a patent?
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:29 / 17.04.07
we a lot less variable genetically than most species.

I think you need to back that up with a little evidence Headmice. I see no evidence that we are any less variable than other mammalian species. Arguably, considering our spread across the planet we are much more diverse genetically than, for instance, the platypus.

I think you make a good point though about the risk of leaving companies to develop enhancement therapies. The advent of a transhuman species will be massively slowed if it is initially controlled and dispensed on a monetary basis. Companies certainly wouldn't want to provide genetic modifications that could be passed on to the enhanced human's offspring (after one generation you lose all of your clients).

Ethically speaking I would think that genetic augmentation that provided resistance to disease should be something that would be freely (or massively subsidised) available to those who wanted it. Governments, unlike companies, would prefer to have citizens who get sick less and, therefore, don't cost the government money to support.

re the sensory network implants - surely its only a short step from there to something approaching gestalt consciousness. I'd suggest though that the primary limiting factor is how much humanity we want to retain.

But our definition of what constitutes humanity grows, develops, and changes alongside our cultures. I imagine that a lot of people in our society might find the thought of becoming a gestalt conciousness to be quite unnerving, if not downright sinister. But, if we followed the path of augmenting and enhancing ourselves, we might very well develop into beings which would seem to 21st century humans to be quite alien.

One can't download oneself into a computer and not be profoundly changed by the experience (well, unless you've got an active biological version of yourself out boozing and aging, but you get my drift).
 
 
Red Concrete
13:31 / 17.04.07
See now I'm not quite sure that's true totally true though.

I don't think I expressed myself properly. I was assuming that eventually all medicine becomes perfectly tailored to the cause of the illness (genetic or environmental). If there is only one cause in the population, for a particular illness, the cost of treatment will be the same for all. If there are many causes, then tailored treatments are necessary, which will be more expensive, simply because economies of scale are less. Now assume there is a subgroup of the population (our transhumans) for which there is a single cause, while the rest of the population has 10 equifrequent different causes. As long as there is more then 1 transhuman for each 10 normal humans, the economy of scale for them will give them better value. A lot of assuming going on, natch!

there are a very limited number of alleles present within the genome

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean there are not enough functional alleles to make pharmacogenetics viable?

we a lot less variable genetically than most species

I have to agree with Evil, I can't bring to mind any evidence for this..? I'm not even sure if there are (presently) reliable ways to make the comparison. But if true, it only means that we'll have cheaper pharmacogenetic healthcare than other species!

With the advent of customisable genomes I would expect that to change quite a lot

Well, yes, we will become less variable relative to other species.

...it would probably start with the blastocyst, so parents would no longer even need to be genetically compatible

Do parents currently have to be "genetically compatible"?

Even though people will likely be altered so as to eliminate a lot of the (proto-)oncogenes

I know what you mean here, but "elimination" of a proto-oncogene is the usual way in which it causes cancer!

God, I'm such a pedant.. sorry Headmice. I agree with a lot of what you said. But I think my point of view is fundamentally different. I can't forsee being able to safely tinker with the human germline on any scale greater than maybe patching up a few mutations causing Mendelian diseases. Which is a big argument, probably not suited to a constructive discussion of Transhumanism...
 
 
Pingle!Pop
14:09 / 17.04.07
How would society ensure that non-enhanced humans were not sidelined by enhanciles? Legislation seems to be one such way... Governments, unlike companies, would prefer to have citizens who get sick less and, therefore, don't cost the government money to support.

Aww, that's sweet.

Sorry, that's not meant to be patronising, but is to say... well, that I can't see how this would actually work, for various reasons. For example:

- The government of the US, the country which presumably has the lead on most of this stuff, can't even see to ensuring that all its citizens have basic healthcare, let alone anything even vaguely resembling a system whereby more wealth != better health. This is also true of other "developed" nations, though to a less horrific degree.

- Even if the governments of the UK, US etc. passed the first perfectly equitable legislation any such government has ever passed, it would only affect those within their own borders. So, you're still talking genetically enhanced humans in the first world, unenhanced humans in the third.

I mean, what I'm concerned about isn't really things like anti-aging treatments or bionic arms - the fact that these would be the sole domain of the rich is a rubbish state of affairs, but not really any different to the current situation, whereby it's perfectly possible to buy better health and so forth. At the moment, a rich person can buy the beast healthcare and prevent their dying from cancer for a bit longer, but this won't affect their grandchildren's chances (other than through being able to afford the same treatment themselves through inherited wealth and privelege). It's the more permanent stuff that puts a worried frown on my face, the genetic alterations: presumably, if a rich person has their genetic structure altered, any changes made will pass on to any children they might have, and you end up with the permanent entrenchment of a new kind of privelege. Even if it is only the obscenely rich at first, presumably a few thousand years of breeding would be sufficient to produce a whole new class of sorts. I still can't see what's preventing this possibility.
 
 
jentacular dreams
17:12 / 17.04.07
The comparison of genetic diversity between humans and other was lifted from James Watson's DNA: the secret of life, but is repeated here with links to papers.

Ethically speaking I would think that genetic augmentation that provided resistance to disease should be something that would be freely (or massively subsidised) available to those who wanted it. Governments, unlike companies, would prefer to have citizens who get sick less and, therefore, don't cost the government money to support.

Those who want it - given that according to the meeja (and it would appear the house of Windsor), all GM food is inherently bad and can never be anything but, I'd imagine the initial queue would be limited to those suffering from mendelian conditions. But surely no government will offer such a thing unless they believe that the cost of doing so (currently massive) outweighs the current costs of the health system and knock on effects of illness on economic performance.

RC: I'd agree that in the case of a one size fits all approach to gene tailoring economies of scale would definitely weigh in on the side of transhumans, but under the capitalist model proposed I envisioned different companies competing (each holding patents on the different replacement genes). If these companies directly engineered transhumans you'd probably see a handful of essential transhuman variants, but if it was a retail/vendor scenario, where the different genes were combined to order, the potential for variation increases exponentially.

The former scenario is obviously far safer in terms of ensuring the different genes work together properly (I'm starting to think it likely that such companies would sell gene bundles for generic benefits, such as improved liver function etc - and there's always the possibility for someone to try pulling a microsoft*), but I can't rule out the latter.

there are a very limited number of alleles present within the genome
Sorry - by this I mean that right now, there might be say 3 alleles for gene X. But a potential transhuman might have the option of replacing this with one of any number of 'new' alleles.

Do parents currently have to be "genetically compatible"?
Well, they kind of are by default, but as variation increases, surely so does the risk of sterility / failed conception? Especially if new genes are being added as opposed to just changed. Such individuals might even have to go up by a couple of chromosomes.

* for example, making their record of your genetic information inaccessible to competing companies, so that if you want medical help from a competitor, they have to sequence you first.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
10:07 / 18.04.07
Without further ado - I propose that at this stage we introduce another central goal of transhumanism into the discussion, namely life extension.

Links here, here, here, and here.

Many of the biomedical procedures (uploading, GM, nanobiotech, cryonics) favoured by TH are geared towards the ultimate aim of extreme longevity and/or immortality.

I see at least two fruitful avenues for discussion (apart from the technical debates).

1. The ethics of it. Who, why, how and when.
2. The ramifications of it. What psychological changes and challenges could one expect if one had an expected lifespan of 200+ years? What are the possible impacts on psychological constructs such as personality and personal biography? Will we remember ourselves as kids at 543 years of age? Will memory cope and adapt to extended lifespans?

I'll have a look and see if there's any HS/Switchboard threads that can be used for reference/resurrection if we want go into more political or philosophical directions. Or how strict are we, Lab-wise?

More, later. Now, work.
 
 
Red Concrete
12:07 / 18.04.07
Have to be brief, I should be working. Point granted on the cost scenarios, I think your model is more likely than mine! (in the absence of massive gov funding)

The comparison of genetic diversity between humans and other was lifted from James Watson's DNA: the secret of life, but is repeated here with links to papers.

I'd be wary of data that's more than a year old, and I wouldn't trust Wikipedia (there's at least one contradiction in the relevant section you linked). And it's not relevant to the present discussion, but James Watson's a wanker and has no authority on anything as far as I'm concerned.

...but as variation increases, surely so does the risk of sterility / failed conception?

Well africans are considerable more genetically variable than the rest of us, emmigrants, but they're not more sterile, etc. So that's not true as a general principle.

You've lost me on the rest of your argument, will try to follow better tonight.
 
 
jentacular dreams
12:38 / 18.04.07
as variation increases, surely so does the risk of sterility / failed conception

Sorry, I'm not being clear. I mean that as different individuals share less and less genes in common, I'm envisoning an increase in genetic incompatibility akin to sympatric speciation.
 
 
Rayvern
11:14 / 26.04.07
It's the more permanent stuff that puts a worried frown on my face, the genetic alterations: presumably, if a rich person has their genetic structure altered, any changes made will pass on to any children they might have, and you end up with the permanent entrenchment of a new kind of privelege. Even if it is only the obscenely rich at first, presumably a few thousand years of breeding would be sufficient to produce a whole new class of sorts. I still can't see what's preventing this possibility.

Sounds like Gattaca.

To be honest, I can't see the business model in offering permanent genetic alterations that can be inherited - or the advantage in opting for a permanent alteration only to find it is obsolete by the time you want to have kids.

I can see it becoming more of a pre-natal shopping experience - "What do you want for your new child - Standard IQ pack, Athletics pack, or we're running a special deal on the Bio-Pro All-Rounder option".
 
 
grant
14:54 / 26.04.07
I still can't see what's preventing this possibility.

The anarchic nature of the human libido, to quote, umm, some historian writing about apartheid. Genetic boundaries are constantly being crossed, have always been and (as far as I can see) always will be. I don't think there's a gene for "only ever attracted to people who look just like me," and if there is, I'm not sure people would be that eager to make it the default setting for courting.
 
 
Red Concrete
08:32 / 28.04.07
The BBC News website (amongst others, probably) is reporting on a paper on mouse cortical simulations performed on the BlueGene L supercomputer, and written up on the researchers' blog. Their current model runs 10 times slower than an actual brain. It would be very interesting if they can wire this up to a body simulator, and get reasonable behaviour patterns emerging; I'd be happy to retract a lot of what I said above.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
10:32 / 30.04.07
I don't think there's a gene for "only ever attracted to people who look just like me," and if there is, I'm not sure people would be that eager to make it the default setting for courting.

Well, yes on an individual level, but in terms of larger trends, I think it's fairly safe to say that the rich disproportionately breed with the rich, white-looking people with other white-looking people, etc. Breeding across (for e.g.) race and class lines may not be rare, but I'm pretty sure it's not the norm either. I think that in order for this to control for any potential of what I'm talking about above, the mating process would have to be entirely random - which it clearly isn't.

Gattaca?
 
 
Rayvern
07:27 / 04.05.07
Gattaca was a film in the late 90s about a world where genetic manipulation had created an upper class. Essentially a natural born guy wants into space, and to do that he needs to fool people into believing he is one of the upper class.

Gattaca on IMDB.
 
  

Page: (1)23

 
  
Add Your Reply