Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Conversation >

Misanthropy

Page: (1)2

07:00 / 11.04.07

Okay, this isn't about discussing the Sheeple, or the Unawakened or the Wuzzles, this is about how you deal with your misanthropic feelings. How you manage not to condemn a world where the Daily Mail and the Sun are by far the most popular newpapers, where the great mass of western culture does its level best to ignore the threat of climate change, and where murder, torture, abuse, ethnic cleansing and genocide are actual facts of realitay.

Last year I found myself working at Legal and General and, I shit you not, everyday it was a bloody struggle not to mentally consign the entire department I was working with to the pits of Hell. How did I cope? I spent a great deal of time reading Barbelith, and struggling to look beyond the horrid opinions so so casually and freely expressed by my well educated, well kept, super privileged colleagues to the people that lay beneath. You know what? Both tactics often failed to make me feel any better.

I think I've still yet to entirely recover, but looking at my son, how he wouldn't know prejudice if it walked up and bit him on the nose, I can feel my compassion slowly creeping back.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:30 / 11.04.07

I spent a great deal of time reading Barbelith, and struggling to look beyond the horrid opinions so so casually and freely expressed

I can certainly sympathise with this problem!

(Oh come on, someone had to...)

It's fairly simple, really: I'm lucky enough to know some fantastic people, and spending time in their company or even just talking to them online is enough to make me feel good about the human race. Same basic principle as with your kid, I guess, although I'd be a little suspicious of attaching too much value to the idea of childhood innocence - yes, a very young child is free from all kinds of bad adult tendencies, but they're also free from many of the good ones, as well...

07:46 / 11.04.07

Absolutely, but it's the idea that he is a space to be filled, that people don't have to hold horrid opinions because they don't start with them. It's not about innocence it's about undermining my feelings that humans inevitably will turn out to be shit - about possibility opening up.

Friends and, I've found recently, work colleagues who are good people also help, but they can also lead to a kind of enclave mentality that I want to avoid.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

07:51 / 11.04.07

Dude, I hear you completely. Right now I'm seriously doubting that there's any place for me in the entire world.

I think I'll become a hermit.

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:05 / 11.04.07

I still don't really get it, Boboss - a very small child arguably doesn't hold any horrid opinions, but to what extent does a very small child hold any opinions? To be honest, the idea that a child is a space to be filled is one the things I find most off-putting about the prospect of having kids, because it could so easily go either way. Put like that, a child is just neutral, not a score in the 'pro' human race column.

08:13 / 11.04.07

I'm lucky enough to know some fantastic people, and spending time in their company or even just talking to them online is enough to make me feel good about the human race.
Yeah, I was thinking a similar thought. Not trying to think about the entire human race, and focusing more on the few people you actually interact with who you really like. Then you just figure there's gotta be more of them out there, and human beings can't be quite that bad.

08:47 / 11.04.07

Fly, it's the fact that he could go either way that does it for me. I was starting to feel for a minute there, somewhat irrationally I might add, that there is some kind of biological predisposition towards rubbishness in people. Something about watching a baby learn and come into the world, something to do with the uncertainty of it has disabused me of that notion, which is nice.

I'm having difficulty articulating this stuff, I know.

08:48 / 11.04.07

(This thread really wasn't intended as a space for me to go on about being a Dad again. Honest)

08:59 / 11.04.07

If you repress your misanthropic feelings, you run the danger of becoming paranoid, according to the book I've been reading about psychoanalysis. Dunno if that's true.

09:02 / 11.04.07

It's not about repressing them. It's about countering them and learning to live with them without accepting that they equal the reality of the human race.

09:27 / 11.04.07

without accepting that they equal the reality of the human race.

But what if they do?

09:34 / 11.04.07

Then we jump off the cliff.

It's the only way...

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:39 / 11.04.07

But they don't. I'm sure everyone knows people who they can think of, who demonstrate that not all human beings are assholes*. So think on them. That way, there's no need to repress.

*And if you don't know anyone like that, get out more!

09:40 / 11.04.07

Or we all go and live on a little island and hide. I favour that one, not because I am a misanthrope but because I like the idea of a small community only incorporating people I like!

I think there are lots of lovely people in the world everywhere, and it's the world itself, the corporations and the obsession with money that makes things seem bad and people seem so self concerned. That's on the sunny days. Then on other days, I just think fuck it, we should all be shot because we're all selfish arseholes.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:46 / 11.04.07

But running and hiding and living on a small island wouldn't be any less selfish than what (admittedly even the most likeable) people do on a day to day basis in late western capitalism to get by, is it? I mean, I'm a wasteful consumer, but I also pay taxes, which I wouldn't do on a sustainable island paradise...

09:57 / 11.04.07

That's a whole different thing though, isn't it? Presumably by opting out of society and going and living on an island with each other we are pointing out our rejection of the current status quo, and therefore our need or desire to pay taxes to support that status quo.

We'd be fucked for healthcare though. Unless Doctor Jack came with us.

09:59 / 11.04.07

Then on other days, I just think fuck it, we should all be shot because we're all selfish arseholes.
I feel that way most days, even though I still like people. All people are at least sometimes fucked-up and depressing, even the people you think are great. No one is immune to some kind of neuroses, hang-ups, tics, anger, depression, whatever. But, that's just the way it is, it's only extra bad because we've become so damn successful as a species that our universal bad traits have universally bad impacts. Makes someone's quote an appropriate double entendre: I'm world class.
I'm getting down, now. I do find solace in many people though, including many of you fine people.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:01 / 11.04.07

Well I'm a chick so arguably my going and living on a remote island is less selfish than my other options: being a parasite on a male partner or Taking A Job Away From A Man. On my island, I could also refrain from making Men think of sex (thus distracting them from writing great novels and symphonies and generally pursuing enlightenment) and, in later life, from subjecting them to having to look at an unattractive older woman which I'm lead to believe creates terrible terrible distress.

10:13 / 11.04.07

See now, what you are saying is not misanthropy but in fact sexism against men and everybody knows that is FAR, FAR worse than sexism against women. Sexism against women is fine because that's what the general consensus of opinion is and because it makes the baby Jesus piss himself laughing.

Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns

10:30 / 11.04.07

The baby jesus can't piss himslef, he has no 'privates' just a pair of plastic pants glued to him like Action Man. I just read it in the Bible, they have pictures and everything.

10:32 / 11.04.07

They have pictures of the baby Jesus's pants? That's rude.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:14 / 11.04.07

No one is immune to some kind of neuroses, hang-ups, tics, anger, depression, whatever.

True, but are these really necessarily bad things? I frequently find my friends' neuroses and hang-ups charming and reassuring (the latter because I have so many of my own), their individual tics endearing, their anger inspiring when it is righteous and entertaining when it is witty, their depression inspiring in terms of how they overcome it...

I'm feeling pretty positive today as you can tell. Even having my bankcard swallowed randomly by a cash machine hasn't dented my spirits too much, although the "not my problem, mate" attitude* of the guy inside the petrol station the machine was attached to did make me think a lot of the cold brutality of compartmentalised beuraucracy, and how we shape the institutions and structures we live and work in, and thereafter they shape us... but sheesh, I could also have got that from staying home and watching an episode of The Wire.

*I wasn't even asking for any help myself - I knew I had to just call my own bank for that - I was suggesting that maybe they might want to investigate whether the machine was working okay, put an 'out of order' sign up or something, for the sake of the next person to use it? But of course, it's not their machine. Compartmentalisation. Ringfencing.

12:36 / 11.04.07

I tend to deal with my own misanthropy by thinking of it as a condition that I'm saddled with - a by-product of being immature and, well, stupid - but which can be endured. It's something that I cannot get rid of but I can ride it out. As long as I am self-aware enough to recognise it as a stupid, lizard-brain reaction, rather than a justifiable, rational one - and of course I always try and rationalise it, but I think I can spot myself doing that - then I can at least contain it; let it froth away inside my head until I'm put right by something happier.

Mind you, that probably only works because my misanthropy *is* childish and is triggered by ridiculous, petty things observed or experienced en route from one place to another. I don't know how I would cope with an office full of genuinely nasty opinions every day, such as Boboss had at Legal & General. I suppose I'd have to keep reminding myself that one, small group of people does not represent the entire population, and maybe try and figure out where the nastiness came from.

13:21 / 11.04.07

I think I've probably mellowed a bit with age. Teenage Evil Scientist used to fancy himself as quite the misanthrope (probably too much Nietzsche, Transmetropolitan, and Bill Hicks on an impressionable young brane). These days my general view is less one of contempt and more one of exasperation.

People viewed as a mass, can be pretty dumb. We're the smartest creatures on the planet and it would be nice if we acted that way more often.

But I normally like to banish ill will towards everyone else by remembering that we've done some pretty darn wonderful things in amongst the rubbish. Dolphins never went to the moon. No tapeworm ever drew MODOK versions of The Avengers (that I know of).

Humans aren't all bad, we just need to give ourselves a slap upside of the head every now and then.

13:35 / 11.04.07

I suppose I'd have to keep reminding myself that one, small group of people does not represent the entire population

Whilst at the time I didn't think they represented the entire population, I did think they represented a significant proportion of the most powerful people in the country, in that they were on the whole middle class, articulate, educated, and white (or the acceptable face of ethnic diversity), and that their views - which seemed to have a reciprocal relationship with the opinions expressed in popular papers such as the Sun and the Mail - were commonly held. It was the kind of environment that seemed to bear out the old line about the UK being a country that leans towards the right, and seemed to consist almost entirely of the folk that good old Tony has tried so hard to court.

So, I suppose I wasn't thinking everyone ever in the world was arseholic, just that a significant majority in the UK were.

13:37 / 11.04.07

Out of interest, anyone else listen to the wonderfully optimistic Reith Lecture today?

That's what spurred this little train of thought.

15:00 / 11.04.07

I combat misanthropy by looking for instances of philanthropy. Look at all the good things people do, the unexpected acts of kindness, the work charities do, the support people lend each other for no other reason than it feels good to help someone else.
Even those horrid bigots are nice to their mums I bet.

jentacular dreams

15:32 / 11.04.07

Along with philanthropy, I usually try to remember stupid things I've done or said* and the patience others have shown me, which always reminds me that the world deserves as good as it's given. And for some reason I always have the impression that if the world became a better place, that would lead to there being fewer arseholes. Obviously the reverse is probably also true, but for some reason I rarely seem to look at it that way.

* for example, I opposed the iraq war, but since it was happening anyway for a long time I held what was at first a firm belief, but later became a tattered shred of hope (and then died) that it was the right thing done for the wrong reasons. These days however it just makes me want to cry.

*

16:57 / 11.04.07

Story, some details changed for anonymity and to make it better:

I live in a house full of queers in the middle of a lot of fraternities. Last night we had a workshop on sexual harassment and abuse, and how to prevent it. It was a decent workshop but not shockingly good. There were a handful of attendees, mostly queer and from our house... and one straight guy from a neighboring fraternity. That made the rest of us pretty edgy, because of our history with the local fraternities, but as the workshop went on we found that he was consistently pro-queer, consistently pro-women, totally respectful, participated and took risks, didn't monopolize the space, and didn't expect cookies for being special.

We made him cookies anyway.

Gives me hope. Where there's one, there might be more. One person interested in learning how to overturn sexist and heteronormative violence and oppression, even though he directly benefits from it, and willing to overcome the pressures of his peer group to publicly acknowledge that desire... and where there's one, there will be more.

People are learning. It's just slow. Misanthropy is easier, but that doesn't mean the perspective spawned by it is true.

(I apologize if this post distresses anyone by revealing my prejudices about young straight white male college students.)

17:08 / 11.04.07

See, that's a heartening story right there.

lord henry strikes back

18:06 / 11.04.07

I'm not saying that this is a perfect cure for the Misanthropy Blues, but it tend to work for me:

Being wrong (by which I mean inaccurate and/or exclusionary) means that you lose. Not on an individual level I admit, some of the nastiest bigots out there get everything that they want, but on a long-term cultural level.

I don't believe that people are born bigots or have innate false beliefs. They pick up these things from the society that they inhabit and so we need to look for a society which does not harbour these beliefs.

I think cultures, just like species, evolve. The most successful (scientifically, economically, etc.) prevail, and the others fade away. A culture or society advances due to the efforts and abilities of its individuals. Every individual who is excluded (be they women, homosexuals, ethnic minorities) from participation, is a lost asset. The more assets a society loses the slower it develops and so the weaker it becomes. Inclusion of everyone makes for the most progressive culture and so these cultures, ultimately, will win out. Furthermore, external pressures will force cultures to move in this direction.

Equally, development can only be made by engaging with the world as it is. Accepting a premise which is artificial (creationism or denying climate change) means that everything that you build on this foundation is prone to fall. By starting with real facts (taughtology I know) real progress can be made and again this is the society, and with it its values, which will survive.

I do not dispute that this all falls apart if we wipe ourselves out (climate change and mass war seeming the most likely ways that we could do this) but I don't think it will happen (though I admit that I can't base this in anything more than a faith that, when all is said and done, we're very resourceful and not, quite, that stupid).

I hope this makes sense, and brings a little solace to others. It works for me.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:14 / 11.04.07

Personally, I tend towards misanthropy on principle- humans are bastards, and that's how they got where they are today.

This all falls down and stops making any sense whatsoever whenever I meet any, however. In actuality, I LOVE people. I love meeting them, I love talking to them, I love being nice to them- they're just great.

Compare this to one of my best friends, who hates everybody. I mean, actually DESPISES humanity, whenever he comes into contact with the rest of it (I don't think he even likes me much, and I'm one of his best mates). He, in principle, LOVES the human race. He truly believes that we are capable of the most AMAZING shit. What I see in him as hatred, he sees as disappointment.

I dunno. I like my way better.

I am the world's crappest misanthrope. And that in itself gives me some sort of grudging hope for humanity. Or at least for myself.

18:15 / 11.04.07

I really like this thread. It's everything I hoped it would be.

Now go and listen to those lectures

23:41 / 11.04.07

How do I combat misanthropy?

Bach. Beethoven. Shakespeare. Miles Davis. John Coltrane. Tori Amos. Thom Gunn. Caravaggio. Tchaikovsky. Shostakovich. Auden. Hendrix. Basho. Saul Williams. Blake. Van Gogh. Hokusai. Jean-Pierre Jeunet. Billy Wilder. Gilbert and George. Jarman. Greenaway. Nick Cave. Nina Simone. Bowie. Camus. Ginsberg. William Carlos Williams. Linda France. Alan Moore. Grant Morrison. Art Spiegelman. Will Eisner. Neal Stephenson. Charlie Parker. Burroughs. Kerouac. And, when all else fails, Sidney Bechet.

Any species that can produce people like that can't be all bad.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:12 / 12.04.07

You missed out Oliver Postgate.

Some days his oeuvre can actually prove the existence of God for me.

Page: (1)2