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Genderqueer and neck deep in magic

 
  

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Disco is My Class War
04:43 / 10.04.07
Over in the Ultraculture thread, Imaginary Mongoose Solutions posted a question asking about writing on magic to do with genderqueerness. Several folks, including myself, wrote back saying, "Yes! That sounds interesting!" So I thought I'd start a thread. Unfortunately I don't have time now to do more than start the ball rolling in a tiny way, but I'll be back later to add more, because this is something I'm really interested in. I'd also add, as a suggestion for how things might proceed, that this thread should totally not be limited to talking about 'official' queerness or transness per se; ie, don't think that you must identify as queer or trans to write here. It might be useful to start with the assumption that everyone bends gender, somehow, at some point. There is no right way to do that; just like there is no right way to do 'magic'. (I'm not that comfortable with using 'magic' as the keyword for all things to do with ritual, sacredness, spirituality, etc etc etc here, so please note that it's more of an ironic use. I can't think of a better word right now.)

Some quick pointers:
Raven Kaldera springs to mind here as an intersting exmaple of someone doing trans stuff and magical stuff, and I think he's written on the intersections between gender and spirituality. I can't find the link right now.

A lot of transpeople talk about transness as some form of divinity or shamanic power. Sometimes that's talked about in the context of indigemous cultures and their beliefs; I think it can be a bit appropriative, at timesl; and there are lots of political questions to flesh out there.

Mostly, though, I'm interested in hearing people's experiences with watching gender when they're engaged in rituals or doing magickal stuff of whatever kind. I'll try to come back later and post some of mine.... In the meantime, Princess? Mordant? Imaginary Mongoose?
 
 
*
06:05 / 10.04.07
I actually don't have an awful lot to report in the way of personal experience. My magic, and my relationship with the deities I tend to work with, hasn't been profoundly affected by my gender shift that I've noticed up to this point. When I was trying to figure out what to do around transition, I asked my patrons (with a small p) and got responses that amounted to "We don't care, and you're not getting an easy answer from us, kiddo." But I did write a thesis about ritual transsexuality in ancient Greece, so I'll mention some of the historical religious and magical gender-bending I've encountered.

First up, here's Raven with an article about Ergi, the Way of the Third, Norse tradition.

Here's an ancient Hebrew prayer that may reflect the author's transgender identity, courtesy of S. Bear Bergman.

A short wikipedia article about the gallae.

A section of one of the Inanna praise-poems written by Enheduanna, circa 2300 BCE, translation Betty DeShong Meador:

Inanna
dressing a maiden
within the women's rooms
embraces with full heart
the young girl's handsome bearing
the maid a woman evilly spurned
taunted to her face
sways beneath the wrath
thrown on her everywhere
her only path a wanderer
in dim and lonely streets
her only rest a narrow spot
in the jostling marketplace
where from a nearby window
a mother holds her child
and stares
this dreadful state
the Lady would undo
take this scourge
from her burdened flesh
over the maiden's head
she makes a sign of prayer
hands then folded at her nose
she declares her manly/woman
in sacred rite
she takes the broach
which pins a woman's robe
breaks the needle, silver thin
consecrates the maiden's heart as male
gives to her a mace
for this one dear to her
she shifts a god's curse
a blight reversed
out of nothing shapes
what has never been
her sharp wit
splits the door
where cleverness resides
and there reveals
what lives inside
the unafraid
who shun her outstretched net
will slip and snag in its fine-eyed mesh
a man
one who spurned her
she calls by name
makes him join
woman
breaks his mace
gives to him the broach
which pins a woman's robe
these two SHE changed
renamed
reed-marsh woman reed-marsh man
ordained sacred attendants
of ecstasy and trance
the head-overturned pili-pili
the chief hero kurgarra
enter ecstatic trance...

Inanna, Lady of Largest Heart, Meador 2000 123-124

I note that the gallae (originally from Phrygia) and the GALA of Sumer share similar phonemes, and Patrick Taylor suggests they may be linguistically connected, an argument I find persuasive (scroll down a lot to get to the abstract).

I hope some of this historical background is of some use, boring as it may be compared to Genesis P-Orridge style genderqueer willworking, and dull as it may be to read references instead of on-the-ground personal accounts. I also look forward to hearing more about people's experiences around gender and magic.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
06:54 / 10.04.07
Not boring or dull at all! Really educational, actually, because I know very little about historical stuff!
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
14:16 / 10.04.07
Disco: Thanks for starting this up!

Many ravishing: I'd never heard of the modern followers of Cybele until you posted this, so thanks.

Me? I hit a wall a few years back in my magical practice where it seemed like I couldn't progress anywhere without dealing with some of the "gender issues" that have followed me around since I was a kid.

It's strange... I used to consider myself mostly straight. I certainly never considered myself to be a "real" transvestite or a transsexual. ("Women like it when I crossdress", I said.) But in recent years, that's changed... in large part because it's an issue I've had to confront more and more in my magical practice.

I still don't know if I consider myself any flavour of queer (although I have many friends who are bemusedly waiting for me to embrace the label) but my magical practice has forced me to confront notions of gender, performativity, the ontological landscape of the body and more issues... and like most magic does... those are not revelations and lesions that I can just leave at the door to my "daily life".

Some of my first workings with another magician, nigh on 10 years ago, involved massive amounts of crossdressing and the swapping of ritual roles. She was vastly more comfortable in "masculine" roles... invoking and evoking male figures and I was the inverse. (In the light of day and in public, we often passed as a gay couple. Also, the "she" I'm referring to here, is now a "he" full time.)

See, on this topic, I'll freely admit that I don't have any answers, I'm just trying to nail down the right questions. I also think I should return to this thread when I have a bit more time.
 
 
Ticker
16:27 / 10.04.07
Gender shifting in my work is something that's really difficult for me to present clearly probably because I don't take it out and discuss it often. So put up with me if this sounds a bit rough around the edges. I'm always sort of hesitant to trot this out because while I identify as female in my public life my magical practice encompasses a quite a few separate identities one of the most often expressed is distinctly male.

There's a big chunk of my magical work that is powered by a combination of gender transgression and just straight up transgression. I use sets of persona to interact with each other and different aspects of reality. For ease of functionality I call them 'skins' but it's a bit misleading as a surface presentation when in fact the transformation is more like layers, onion skin not just animal skin. So the collective 'me' is made up of many distinct skins. Some of them happen to male and a few other combinations of gender.

While I'm very comfortable in the magical work I do, I recognize that I'm not shifting my gender out in public on a daily basis. The people who I interact with on a close level may see some of the shifts happen but I'm pretty good at and happy with presenting a matching female gender to my physical representation. The only exception is private BDSM related activities where I sometimes shift. Almost always this is because the activity has crossed over into the domain of one of the other personas and it becomes triggered. I should add each one of the major persona also has an associated level of consciousness and distinct ways of speaking/dressing/moving.
 
 
Quantum
18:41 / 10.04.07
This is looking to be a fantastic thread. I am eagerly reading but have nothing to add yet, except w00t! That bit of Inanna poem was great, thanks id.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
05:27 / 11.04.07
Enjoying this as well. I'm curious if others are more likely to invoke established queer powers or generate their own servitors when working in this area?
 
 
*
06:28 / 11.04.07
Well, Raven's book Hermaphrodeities is basically a handbook for honoring Gods (and other powers) who violate the gender binary system. These are mostly Not Made Up (as much as that distinction is meaningful; obviously someone thought of or discovered them at some point and there is some gnostic license). I know it's been helpful to a few friends.

The first "pantheon" I encountered that spoke to me about gender was a made-up trinary: Goddess, God, and Holy Fool (here it is for the terminally curious). Each of the three was composed of three: Maiden, Mother, and Crone (of course), Child, Youth, and Sacred King (sounds familiar), and Prometheus, Trickster, and Chaos. Pretty simplistic. This must have been in 1996 or so, and I see it's still out there on the 'net.
 
 
penitentvandal
06:42 / 11.04.07
'Hermaphrodeities.'

See, I was unsure about reading any Kaldera stuff (not for any prejudiced reasons, more Oh noes! More book-learnin'!), but now you've mentioned ze wrote something with that title I am there. That's class.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:17 / 11.04.07
Well, exploring the relationships between sexuality, magic & gender has been a strong element of my magical work - ever since a wiccan high priestess told me that anyone who is gay or bisexual cannot advance spiritually - which, as a rather confused and sensitive young man, wasn't exactly what I needed to hear, y'know?

For the last four years or so, I've been attending the UK's Queer Pagan Camp, described as follows, by one of its founders, Lou Hart as:

"Open to all; lesbians, gay men, heterosexuals, bi sexuals, transexuals, transgendered people, and as many sexuals or genders as you care to mention, on the understanding that we respect each other i.e. that there is no 'norm' This is what enables it to be 'inclusive' rather than 'exclusive'. It is also a principle that we respect the land, its Spirits, the animals and creatures and ourselves (which often means taking responsibility) and that sex and gender are self-defined."

and from the e-group intro:
"Queer Pagan Camp grew out of the experiences of people being marginalised by wider society and other pagan or spiritual groups based on stereotypes of sexual identities and gender preferences The first principal of Queer Paganism is respect for each other, ourselves, the Spirits and the Land, and we work on the basis of self-identification."

"As Queer Pagans we communicate directly with spirits, nature, ancestors, Gods, Goddesses or other divinities. We do not need mediators. We work consensually to create rituals. We do not need hierarchies. We welcome spirits and work with them. We do not command them. We share knowledge of different traditions and we create new ways of working. Stirring the cauldron of gender we are not limited by gender-based magical working. We believe we can all work with spiritual power, that we all can be our own healers, celebrants and guides."

At QPC there is, how can I put it - a continuing conversation about what magic might be within a nexus of queer contexts - which includes challenging or just moving beyond existing notions of dieities, for example in terms of binary gendered categories, pagan notions of polarity which essentialise male & female stereotypes.

queer pagan tribe

Another thing which may be of interest - last year I was contacted by a guy in the States who was putting together an anthology of writings on Queermagical themes - I was going to contribute, but got hopelessly bogged down trying to juxtaposition my thoughts on magic with queer theory and queeruption. I don't know what the current state of the anthology project is, but if anyone's interested, PM me and I'll give you the guy's contact details.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
07:26 / 11.04.07
xk, I'm interested in how you relate the 'skins' you talk about to your everyday personality or gender presentation. And I'm also interested what you mean when you say there are specific personas or characters that come out -- could you tell us more? It reminds me, a little bit, of roleplay in BDSM (which is arguably a ritual or potentially magickal space, anyhow) where the 'role' takes over and kind of becomes its own autonomous entity. That's happened a couple of times for me. And it's interesting to note that gender-fucking happens despite my 'everyday' gender presentation being trans, already. One of the most powerful 'skins' I've worked with (and haven't played with for a long time, but want to explore more) is a fabulous diva with a dick. Not 'woman', but a queer guy taking on femmedomme. I related a lot to Lord Fanny; in fact, Grinch Mudpossum probably helped that thing come out of me, somewhere. (As embarrassing as it feels now to admit now that one got something important out of the Invisibles.)
 
 
Haloquin
13:40 / 11.04.07
Thank you for starting this thread, and to those that are contributing. The subject fascinates me in an *I-have-very-little-idea-about-it* kind of way.

I haven't looked at gender in relation to magical practises in any detail, but I'm starting to remember times when I've been visibly male in meditations/journeys and how, internally I don't feel one or the other, or both really. Externally I think I follow a fair number of female patterns, fitting with female body and identification. But I really can't tell how you could feel one or the other inside, as I really don't feel like I do. I am very sure that people do, please don't get me wrong.

I know I have problems with some things because I see them as 'girly', but I'm also aware that I see them that way because of cultural teachings and I'm uncomfortable with them mostly because I dislike doing what I'm supposed to be doing, with being easily labelled (i.e. someone turning round and saying; "you like that because you're a girl". This doesn't make sense to me, so it makes me uncomfortable, I guess.) (also, I suspect, I had trouble fitting in so I decided I like being different and things that detract from that and make it easy to put me in a box may threaten my sense of identity... but I'm working on that set of beliefs).

I also tend to gravitate towards outwardly female but inwardly (to me) more gender-neutral deities, which I hadn't noticed before.

The division of roles for in magic based on gender/sex has never made sense to me, I just don't feel it. I'm as happy taking on any role and they don't feel gendered, although I recognise that some follow cultural patterns of 'masculine' or 'feminine'.

I came to magical systems first through reading wicca as that was what I could get my hands on, so I'm used to a system that has 'male' and 'female' balancing each other, but when I use it it is out of habit rather than really feeling it. Which I've only just realised.
I guess thats one of the reasons Feri attracts me, the people I know in Feri tend to be gender-queer and work with queer versions of the Feri deities (which aren't particularly 'straight' to begin with!).

I'm sorry this is garbled, I realised these thoughts into words as I wrote them.
 
 
Quantum
14:09 / 11.04.07
Stirring the cauldron of gender is a brilliant phrase.
 
 
Ticker
15:06 / 11.04.07
xk, I'm interested in how you relate the 'skins' you talk about to your everyday personality or gender presentation.And I'm also interested what you mean when you say there are specific personas or characters that come out -- could you tell us more?

Weelll...

The person I present as a functional whole is actually often experienced as a shifting of multiple internal perspectives. Usually there's a few 'surface' aspects paying attention and interacting with the world. (I should go dig out the book Sacred Pain it has a kickass description of this sort of thing in it). Close companions of mine often label or name the different perspectives and yes, some of them sound different. I am prone to silly muppet like antics as readily as severe stern decrees. I don't identify as a multiple because I experience myself cohesively as a whole, a shifting vast ocean sometimes, but a whole undivided me-ness. Even the skins are part of that collective self. Self-pluralism maybe...

My primary perspective is gender neutral though it can shift very quickly into a sexualized viewpoint of either: female/lesbian (primary), female/hetero (secondary), male/hetero(often), male/gay(rare). When I unpack these pairings I sometimes experience cultural baggage noise, as if I've plopped traits or abilities into gendered jars and access that gender label when I access the trait or ability.

However, often it isn't a trait or ability it's an entire way of functioning and instead of just a momentary gender shift for a specific action an entire skin is activated to deal with a situation. As the state of consciousness with most of the fully formed ones is not normally used during every day interactions this rarely occurs. When it does occur the shift in body posture, language use, and general demeanor is very unsettling for other people and I'm not certain it has much to do with the gender of the skin as much as he/she/it is just unsettling by nature. Two of these skins are very similar in nature but are gendered opposite, and interestingly enough the male skin is less ruthless than the female. They both present as absolutely crazy people unless in appropriate settings.



It reminds me, a little bit, of roleplay in BDSM (which is arguably a ritual or potentially magickal space, anyhow) where the 'role' takes over and kind of becomes its own autonomous entity.


My Domme role doesn't function so much as a skin as so much as allowing free reign to some of my sadistic tendancies. It's like the difference between the fancy dinner self and the eating pizza on the couch self, more an issue of editing than being. That said during BDSM there are skins that can come online and the shifting back and forth can be instant. The key distinction I make between my Domme role and the skins is the state of consciousness. I use my Domme behavior all over the place when it is appropriate. It's way less of shift and more just permission to act a different way. The only difference I can think of between my Domme role and my Priest role for example is the editing of sadism, which obviously isn't true during Ordeal work when it can be a requirement.

Is this making any sense?

I should add I personally view my skins as an adaptive trait to some very specialized circumstances and they've been refitted to work with my magical and religious practices. There's some discussion as to if the circumstances surrounding their inital creation was just a means to end, the being wired to do this, or if it's truly a refitting job. Though hey, we are what we are.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:31 / 11.04.07
Yeah, this is really interesting, XK - and brings to mind some of the stuff that came up on the invited possessions thread - and brings to mind, for me, some of the postmodern reflections about multiple selves.
 
 
Ticker
17:17 / 11.04.07
I agree trouser. It's one of the reasons I tend to be a bit more critical of many modern claims of possesion by external entities. I do think it happens but IMO by not addressing the ability of the self to engage this way you're leaving one of the pieces off the board. All of the methods of inducing possession I've read about or experienced also lend themselves to this plural expression of self. When a person disassociates it leaves room for someone else to step in, and who that other is needs to be openly investigated.

In terms of gender and magic I especially find it interesting when the act of possesion justifies behavior not normally allowed.

BTW:

and from the e-group intro:
"Queer Pagan Camp grew out of the experiences of people being marginalised by wider society and other pagan or spiritual groups based on stereotypes of sexual identities and gender preferences The first principal of Queer Paganism is respect for each other, ourselves, the Spirits and the Land, and we work on the basis of self-identification."


WANNA GO! WANNA GO!

and from my sister-in-arms:

Tooting man becomes Hindu goddess
 
 
Make me Uncomfortable
20:36 / 11.04.07
Being bisexual, or at least totally unconcerned with gender when it comes to attraction (pansexual, multi-sexual, numisexual, greedy have all been bandied about), I take gender to be an entirely constructed notion, and that is how I work it into my magical practice.

That is to say, I see Male and Femaleness as societal constructions or archetypes, that the majority of people happen to relate to thier physical bodies. IE, being a woman reminds you of the Divine Feminine, being a man reminds you of the Divine Male. But I don't think that those are at all the only gender archetypes out there- The Third, the Ungendered, the Mixed, and thousands of others all exist. They just don't get as much play as the big M and F.

I regard religion, race, etc the same way- an unbounded and continuous discourse, all post-structural and critical-theory-ness.

From a personal sexual standpoint, I pretty much respond to people as people, not as the gender they are / gender they want to be / gender they interact as, any more than I respond to the religious preference that someone has / wants to have / interacts as having / etc. I mean, I tend to think that self-awareness is the most important part of it all, and gravitate towards people who seem to have figured themselves out and are comfortable with whatever they end up wanting to be.

Magically, I tend to use gender the way I use invocation, ritual, and materials- whatever is at hand and most appropriate to the task is what gets used. 90% of the time, that is "I'm male, I was born with a male body and have mostly assoicated with the Divine Masculine" but the other 10% it might be the Third or the Feminine or "I am a Genderless Glowing Ball of Light Spirit Dragon Superceeding and Transcending All Notions of Binary/Trinary Opposition". Thats a fun one.

Yeah?
 
 
Ticker
21:41 / 11.04.07
Here's the quote I mentioned upthread. It may seem a bit threadjacky but I do think it's useful:

from Sacred Pain by Ariel Glucklich

Hilgard's Neodissociation

Earnest Hilgard claims that the aspects of neodissociation theory that place it beyond traditional (Janet's) dissociation theory include the following three:

1. The notion that we consist of totally unified consciousness is altogether atteactive but false. Instead, there are subordinate cognitive systems, each with some degree of unity, persistence, and autonomy of function.

2.The second assumption is that "some sort of hierarchical control exists that manages the interaction or competetion between and among these structures" --that is, functional systems.

3.There must be some executive, an "overarching monitoring and controlling structure." In the absence of such oranization the semi-autonomous systems would compete for attention and the most powerful or "noisy" would over shadow the others.

Hilgard leaves himself vulnerable to charges of promoting a homunculus when he says that the cental control structure "plans, monitors, and manages functions involving the whole person,so that he or she thinks at acts appropriately. But in fact, this executive must be regarded as one more system, a "master loop" of information input and output that regulates the other systems, and which has evolved due to adaptive --biological--factors.




How this ties into gender and magic for me lies in the way I experience selves or subsystems that have variations in gender. The most notable of these genderqueer selves manifest in my ritual and magical life. Though the reasons for that are a bit complex and probably have a great deal to do with how I edit and shift my sexuality except when in that space. It's like my very own magical hydroelectric dam.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:51 / 12.04.07
Wow, Hilgard - there's a name from my past - I read a lot of his work when I studied cognitive psychology at Huddersfield Poly and his neodissociation theory is, I think it's fair to say, a milestone in consciousness studies. Hilgard's contention that there is no "unitary self" (which comes from his work at Stanford on hypnosis) is a central theme in postmodern theories of Self & Identity.

Something Mongoose wrote on the Ultraculture Journal One thread has been on my mind since this thread kicked off:

To take things back to my comments on queer magic books - why are so many books that touch on that topic completely out of touch with queer theory in the academic sense? Seriously, back in the day, I used to tell people that the most important book on magic that I'd read recently was Judith Butler's "Undoing Gender"

It's a good question, which deserves some exploration. One train of thought I have is in relation to conflicting notions of selfhood. It strikes me that there's a great deal of essentialism in contemporary magical thought, much of it stemming from the Romantic tradition, central to which is the notion of a stable center of identity in the deep interior of one's being. Contrast that to say, Kenneth Gergen's postmodern/relational self, which is understood as a relational construction, continually developing within the dialogues that we have with others, with culture, and ourselves. This focus on relationality also occurs in Queer Theory. Here's a quote I found from Joseph Bristow in Effeminate England: Homoerotic Writing after 1885

..queerness requires an understanding of individual identity that remains alert and responsive to the endless variety of positions in which the very notion of identity might be articulated … queerness is constantly refiguring itself, open to provisional and postmodern self-reconstruction.

thoughts?

ps; Some experiential-based thoughts are on the way....
 
 
Ticker
13:57 / 12.04.07
It strikes me that there's a great deal of essentialism in contemporary magical thought, much of it stemming from the Romantic tradition, central to which is the notion of a stable center of identity in the deep interior of one's being. Contrast that to say, Kenneth Gergen's postmodern/relational self, which is understood as a relational construction, continually developing within the dialogues that we have with others, with culture, and ourselves.

I'd say that nails down why I personally I've always found certain traditions to be ill fitting with my own experience.

I also agree that tackling the constructs of gender is a great way to start unpacking and examining our entire world view as a series of constructs rather than objective absolutes.

When you start screwing around with your sexuality the entire top of your head is likely to come off. This, IMO, is a good thing.
 
 
Quantum
14:33 / 12.04.07
there's a great deal of essentialism in contemporary magical thought

Hell yeah.
I'm fascinated by this stuff because the philosophical and psychological perspectives on identity seem to be best expressed in queer theory. Weirdly* my take on identity is very like Hillgard's, the self as composite and modular. In My Mind, I'm composed of interdependent cognitive subsystems that are equivalent to my heart, arms, liver or hypothalamus. I am the sum of my parts (maybe more).


*weirdly because I'm a vanilla heteronormative guy and hadn't heard of Hillgard in my amateur consciousness studies research
 
 
Quantum
14:34 / 12.04.07
When you start screwing around with your sexuality the entire top of your head is likely to come off. This, IMO, is a good thing.

I'm going to go home and screw the top of my head off. Or screw my sexuality until the top of my head comes? Off? I'm an amateur, be gentle.
 
 
Ticker
15:06 / 12.04.07
Well to begin with Quants that vanilla heteronormative label you self applied, it may be a good way describe your sexual prefs but probably not your social interactions/views? If you start unpacking how you view people non sexually I bet you'll find it's not along a heteronormative world view (in fact I'll bet you 5 pounds).

So if certain sets of your behaviors outside of the bedroom might blur what is appropriate to a definable male straight gender how's that impact the overall construct of your perceived gender?
 
 
Ticker
15:12 / 12.04.07
here is a good overview of: Butler's "Undoing Gender"
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:35 / 12.04.07
Thanks for the explanations, xk.

My first experiences as an adult with magic stuff was a lot of new age type energy work -- healing, chakra work, yoga, tantra, a bit of wiccan stuff too. At around the same time I was doing gender studies, and reading Butlet for the first time. Going from one to the other was a total mindfuck (in a good way). Gender and sexuality in a lot of new age discourse is completely binary and heteronormative. Ie, 'female' energy is passive, receptive and connected to the earth; 'male' energy is creative, active and connected to the sky; the two must work in harmony, etc etc... So, the world works like a het couple? And women should be 'down to earth', while men can roam the stars? I wasn't really into that explanation, and I started looking around for ideas about healing and energywork which acknowledged my reality -- wihch was that everyone had a completely different energy, not necessarily related to gender at all. Or, that people's energy related to gender, but that everyone had a combination of multiplicities going on inside them, which could manifest as different genders, different roles.

Also, BDSM (and maybe the I Ching) taught me that yin/yang or active/receptive don't have to match up with masculine/feminine. Butch-femme is a beautiful example of this, I reckon.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:45 / 12.04.07
Just thought I'd stick up a link to Lou Hart's excellent Magic is a many gendered thing which features a critique of binary gender formulations in western neo-paganism and some thoughts on queer magic.
 
 
Ticker
16:15 / 12.04.07
A fun piece of personal genderfuckery with a dollop of magic in it....

When I attended the Fetish Flea in Jan I spent the day in my leather overalls bouncing around talking to people. Had a lovely chat with a particular lady and later that evening when she talked to me in my full bejeweled ballgown her jaw dropped and she said:

"I thought you were a different person entirely even with those tattoos! I had no idea someone could be that butch and this femme."

The dress in question had a bit of extra glamour layered into it but methinks people in general (even in the BDSM community) get pretty rigid about categorizing.
 
 
Quantum
18:30 / 12.04.07
I'll bet you 5 pounds

You're on. Come to Brighton to collect.

If you start unpacking how you view people non sexually I bet you'll find it's not along a heteronormative world view

Well I'm just about realising that gender's not the biological bits you were born with and that queer isn't an old fashioned insult for homosexuals, that who you shag doesn't define your identity and that there are more than two possible gender identities. Largely due to Barbelith.
I think I need to read a bit more Butler and get a bit more practice before I abandon my heteronormative self-ID though, I was about to say you couldn't fit a billfold and yourself into that dress so you couldn't have a fiver to bet me. Then I thought better of it.
 
 
Ticker
19:12 / 12.04.07
Well I think the odds are in my favor as I'm pretty sure you're supportive of nontraditonal households as loving environments to raise kiddos. That's not a heteronormative viewpoint. (I could be infering too much here, please pardon me if I am.)

It starts when you peel away what you like to do in sexy sex land from how you are allowed to express yourself in other ways. Just being a straight male who is comfortable crying in public will get you ticketed by the gender police in some districts.

My gender variation expresses itself outwardly in non sexy sex land when I cross the line of the approved female behavior line and into the male all the time. Some people, as in the example upthread, read it as butch transgression even when it has nothing to do with sex. I imagine those people might very well shit themselves in terror if they actually witnessed me doing it intentionally in a magical context. (though hey the freedom of art sometimes glosses over these things and sugar coats them.)

Though I-am-but-an-Egg in many respects to gender studies. Butler's work makes my brain go explody if I try and read it in large doses.

I remember mentioning to a guest after my last public ritual that I'm hoping the core story arch in the next few will be less heteronormative and my guest assuring me it wasn't at all. You see in my brain it was because I forgot I outwardly present female. I had been thinking it read totally as male/female forgetting that the audience is seeing a female/male/female. Or something like that anyway. The point is I thought I was staying in the lines of gender but to another person I wasn't.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
19:37 / 12.04.07
"It strikes me that there's a great deal of essentialism in contemporary magical thought, much of it stemming from the Romantic tradition, central to which is the notion of a stable center of identity in the deep interior of one's being."

I think you're dead on, which puzzles em a bit. Why is contemporary magical thought often so essentialist when the forerunners of contemporary magic seemed to be involved in the project of reconstructing many of the notions of personal identity?

Let's look at Crowley for a moment. Taking a glance at his work and workings, he seemed to be striving towards a really almost post-modern construction of his "self"... certainly he still essentialized gender and racial traits but was constructing a project of self where he possessed and encompassed many personae and traits from all genders within himself. (It could be argued that Crowley's conception of the Ipsissimus is a very pomo construction of self, but that's another thread.)

There was a lot of this sort of "X is like this and X is like this and I am both X and Y" thought in the Golden Dawn and its associated groups. Now while that's not the same thing as non-essentializing behavior, it's the precursor to it. At around the time of the begining of the 20th century, it could be argued that the rest of the world, was (slowly) learning how to play with concepts of selfhood from the magical communities of the time. Even those in the academy (it's not too hard, for example, to play connect the dots in one direction between the GD to the situationists to the post-structuralists... or to take a closer look at what concepts Freud seemed to take out of his short-lived association with the GD) seemed to be influenced by concepts that were being test-bedded by the magical communities of the turn of the century.

This seems to beggar the question: When did contemporary magical practice stop evolving in directions that continued to question contemporary notions of identity and identity politics? (Or, did it actually stop?)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:04 / 13.04.07
Mongoose
Could you say more about Freud's association with the Golden Dawn? I haven't come across this in any of the books I've read about the Golden Dawn or 19th Century Occultism.

Moving on though. Yes, I agree with you about Crowley and his various (and often public) personas. There's an interesting analysis of Crowley in this regard in Stan Cohen & Laurie Taylor's 1978 book Escape Attempts: The Theory and Practice of Resistance to Everyday Life - a book I'd highly reccomend, btw. And in regard to the Golden Dawn, there's Florence Farr and Shaw's "New Woman" - and Mather's self-fashioning of himself as a Scottish Nobleman are two examples that spring to mind (see also this post for some brief notes on 19th century women occultists and for those interested in looking at sexual politics and occultism in Edwardian England I'd recc. Alex Owen's The Place of Enchantment as a possible starting point). I'm not so sure though, that these "new concepts of selfhood" emerged out of the magical communities, although they were undeniably significant as cultural experimental spaces. I tend to think more in terms of the magical groups of the period articulating the social tensions & interplays within culture.

On to:

When did contemporary magical practice stop evolving in directions that continued to question contemporary notions of identity and identity politics? (Or, did it actually stop?)

That's a hugely complicated question, so it'll have to wait until my brain recovers from work. However, I don't think magical practice "evolves" in a nicely linear fashion. So for example, at QPC, there are those of us who're heartily sick of the kind of polarity-based framing of gender and sexuality that Disco mentioned above and have consequently moved away from it - it's no longer valid for us as an explanatory model and certainly not as a cosmological 'truth' (which is how it tends to get presented). Yet, equally there are people who've accomodated themselves within these frameworks and seem quite happy within them. A couple of years ago, I met a gay guy from one of the local covens in my area. As far as I've been able to make out, the coven has a quite rigid collective view of polarity, to the extent that at an outdoor party they insisted that the circle follow male-female pairings just so's everyone could share some wine. I was talking to this one guy later about how he felt about polarity within Wicca, and he said that when he went into circle he felt that he became "straight" (his phrasing). Which kind of left me a bit gobsmacked.
 
 
illmatic
11:28 / 15.04.07
Fascinating thread, this.

XK: Could you expand a little bit about what you mean by "heteronormative"? For instance, I can see that being supportive of non-traditonal households as loving environments to raise kiddos b c"normative" but what specifically makes it "heteronormative"? Isn't there a slight danger there that anything unorthodox becomes suborned under that label?

When did contemporary magical practice stop evolving in directions that continued to question contemporary notions of identity and identity politics?

This is a great question, and not one that I really have any answers for but the first thing that popped into my head was the kind of deconstruction of identities you can see in Pete Carroll's work and that of NLP - both use the idea of "multiple selves" quite freely (Carroll refers to himself as "we" in his last book). However, for some reasons I can't quite articulate, the use of this concept makes me a little uneasy, particular within NLP. Not sure why, as I haven't really thought this through yet. Possibly because it seems more like a "cool idea" that people throw around, rather than something that resonates really deeply with the way we are, I don't now. I'd welcome critques of the concept.

To tie this into the thread, a possible reason for distrust is that I've never encountered this concept being used in a way that could challenge and /or liberate the user in the same way that a queer identity can. Thoughts?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
11:47 / 15.04.07
When did contemporary magical practice stop evolving

I don't think the majority of magical practice has stopped evolving, though the ones that have stopped or hit plateaus have done so largely because of dogma.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:26 / 15.04.07
I think perhaps there is a long traditional tendency to reduce everything to one, one king, one prime minister, one queen, one god, one energy. I think that tendency of hierarchy has passed over into modern psychology and notions of identity.

Its as if one categorical label or identity becomes authority and gives a sense of certainty and perhaps faith that one knows what there dealing with and can quantify and qualify that thing/person in some way.

When something or someone becomes uncertain in there identity is existing in a state of transition or transmutation it is much harder to quantify and qualify that person/thing from the view point of somebody trying to measure what exists in there environment that is used to the notion of identity being about a series of singular identities that don't cause a sense of paradox in binary measuring systems.

Yet it is in that very state of transition/transmutation that in my own experience real change/magic can happen especially with regards to personal identity, i used to liken such a state to death/impermanence but now i am not so sure. Perhaps it is the attachments to identities that we create that are the hardest things to transmute.

For example today i started writing my feelings down in a journal about different parts of my life, i started to use identifiers to create that picture, more out of habit than anything else, but i noted something about early childhood that had me wondering, i described it more in terms of qualities, expressions as if i didn't really have a fully formed identity at that point in my development, which i doubt i did have. That appears to be a very useful jumping point for me to look at other areas of my life.

Rather than describing in identity or the signifiers of personalities, clothing, music, relationships, etc. Looking at the expressions, processes and qualities behind the assumed identities. The energy (for want of better terms) that creates the movement of the characteristics of identity in consciousness, emotional ranges, feelings, the feeling of consciousness itself as different from the conscious associations within consciousness.

Looking at the structure of many magical/spiritual/mythological systems has me wondering as well about how they express relationships between the one and the many, kabbalah for example still gives a sense that everything emanates from one point and is the expression of that one, so thou they maybe expressions they still are attachments of that one point. That in a sense is a closed system.It exists from a very narrow stand point of expression, everything must return to one preceptor , a prime beginning which is characterized by its relationship only to different parts of itself. rather than say its relationship to another.

Its something that is a part of many creation myths that get mapped into spiritual structures, even systems that employ the uniting of two factors to create union then focus on that union, rather than the involvement of two or many. Its a definite way to create and maintain a numerical hierarchy and a perception of oneness.

The perception of oneness giving a sense of security, unity and faith that there is something to identify/believe in.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
16:35 / 15.04.07
I think perhaps there is a long traditional tendency to reduce everything to one, one king, one prime minister, one queen, one god, one energy.

Though don't they represent and remind us of the many forces behind the figurehead, whose symbolism is needed because we can't grasp the immensity of their natures?
 
  

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