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Blood Bowl

 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
21:20 / 09.04.07
I know that 99% of the talk in this forum is either hu-man sports or video games, but I just spent a pleasant Easter Monday afternoon reacquainting myself with the joys of, er, Blood Bowl.

Which I thought I would hate when introduced to, but it turns out I like rather quite a lot indeed.

For those of you not familiar with the darker corners of Games Workshop, far from the bright lights of WFB and Warhammer 40K, Blood Bowl could be best described as "Warhammer Ultra-Lite" for those in the know re. miniatures gaming; those totally unfamiliar with war games, well, imagine a cross between American football and Lord of the Rings, but with more lowbrow humour and loads of violence.

In Blood Bowl, you're a coach fielding a team from a variety of fantasy races and a couple of "theme" teams. Orcs and Humans are the two fundamental teams, but all the WFB races put in an appearance, with a few other specialty teams beside. Skaven, three flavours of elf, dwarves, Nurgle, Chaos dwarves, Chaos warriors... all of them put on helmets and grab the pigskin under your watchful eye.

The game mechanic is remarkably simple (compared to most GW games) -- two halves of eight rounds each, each round composed of a turn for both players. You play a turn until all your players (you field 11, but you rarely finish a game with 11 on the field -- injuries are frequent) have played or until you screw something up. If one of your players enters the opposing endzone carrying the ball, he scores a touchdown. The winner is the player with the most touchdowns at the end of the second half.

It's goofy, but it's also got ludicrous strategic depth. The point of playing isn't to play one-off games but to get three or four (or more) people and coach a full season; players get "skill points" for things like touching down, catching or throwing the ball, and injuring opposing players. There's a list of about forty skills players can acquire that affect what they're capable of doing.

All the action is governed by six-sided dice: regular six-siders, used for all ball-related actions, and "blocking dice," used for when players collide.

Ultimately, it's a dice game -- but one with a remarkable array of strategic options and depth, especially once your team starts picking up a few skills. It's hard not to get attached to certain players, but unfortunately death is common, as are injuries, and the team awards benefits to lower-rated teams in matches to keep the more experienced teams from overdogging the newer teams consistently.

So, yeah. Blood Bowl. I've spent a couple years away from it -- since my local league dissolved -- but I've been feeling the itch again. If anyone else is inclined to revisit the game, or give it a whirl, there's a handy (and massive, massive, massive) Web site that supports an online play application: FUMBBL. I'll probably be dusting off my account and running a few matches (it works using a Java client) this week. Username Shepherd, if anyone's looking.
 
 
Quantum
00:08 / 10.04.07
Oh yes, Blood Bowl was brilliant. Dwarves vs. Elves was always my fave, or Chaos vs Goblins.
 
 
Blake Head
00:45 / 10.04.07
I only remember playing it once or twice. As I recall Skaven were fairly tasty. Eh, competitively I mean. Going through the online rulebook's been about the only thing keeping me sane tonight, which is a sad state of affairs and no mistake.

Has anyone played that Chaos League spin-off game?
 
 
Feverfew
07:35 / 10.04.07
I want to try this online, but, as per usual, I'm having trouble with the Java client, as in I can't even work the installation process. Any advice appreciated.

I have Chaos League, but unfortunately the computer doesn't run it - which is annoying, but will be remedied in the fullness of time.

Blood Bowl is, in fact, one of the few Citadel Miniatures games I would have liked to get into, but unfortunately when I was 12-14 Warhammer and WH40k were just so more shiny, and my young mind was drawn to them, even though I couldn't afford the miniatures. Bloodbowl (and to a lesser extent, Necromunda) were, I think, created to widen the addiction range to those who would only want to buy a more limited number of miniatures.

Just when you think you're out, you get sucked back in...

For information, Chaos League is apparently a great deal of fun, but not the easiest to find - it pops up in 3 for £15 sales here in the UK, but not that often.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
08:05 / 10.04.07
Feverfew, if you click on the Help link on the top right of the FUMBBL site, they do a very good job of walking you through the whole process. It takes a bit of fiddling sometimes, but it generally always works. Once you're in, you should start a team in the Academy division -- a place where more experienced coaches help newer coaches with the basics of both game strategy and the Java client. You're expected to know how the game works, but they're generally pretty helpful and tolerant (although English is often not their first language). If you like, we can work out a time to play a couple of Academy matches.

And yeah about the "limited figures" thing -- the main reason I really dig BB is that it has most of the depth of GW games but without the "infinitely deep pockets" phenomenon that can keep you buying figs till doomsday. A $50 team is all you need to play BB forever, if you like the race. It is, of course, never enough to own just one team (plus the two teams in the base set), but you never feel like you HAVE to buy more teams to be competitive.
 
 
Feverfew
08:18 / 10.04.07
Thanks, Matt. I'm working through the User Guide now. Will let you know if/when I'm up and running!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:01 / 10.04.07
I recently found my Blood Bowl set at my mum's house, but haven't found anyone to play it with yet. Hmm, maybe I should threaten Django... or buy him beer.
 
 
Feverfew
17:25 / 10.04.07
Can't it be both?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
17:28 / 10.04.07
Used to love this game. There was a chap at my school who would paint his Eleven cheerleaders so it looked as though they were wearing crotchless panties. Odd chap. Wish I had a funny anecdote about him getting lead poisoning, but I don't. Ho hum.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
21:14 / 10.04.07
Fable, Stoats, get ye over to FUMBBL and we'll start a little Barbeleague.
 
 
Supaglue
13:02 / 11.04.07
Ah Bloodbowl, now them were the days, right back to the first edition where the players were card counters.

Actually the best version was the one that had the fake astrogranite pitch. The two compendiums allowed you to make rules for pitch invasions (so your players could notch up supporter fatalities) and buy dirty tricks and the like. That was fantastic fun. Chainsaws, see-saws o' death, killing the ref.


This one is the newer rules aint it? I didn't like them as much - No teams of different races, simpler mechanics and stuff, but I've bitten the bullet and made a team anyway. Look out for the Sewer Spiders in the Amateur league smashing you in the teeth whilst tying your bootlaces together.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
13:46 / 11.04.07
I stopped playing BB IRL just before the fifth ruleset was introduced. The game as a whole has evolved a lot since the earliest days; it's very geared now towards a ruleset that encourages league play (and some long-term coaches dislike the 5th edition vehemently, arguing that it helps underdogs too much).

FUMBBL is still working off the 4th edition, because the 5th edition introduced a very complex team-balancing mechanic that lets the underdog select various "inducements" that are fascinating in terms of play but hellish in terms of programming a simple Java utility.

My main complaint with 4th edition is that it was very rewarding to fouling players -- fouling is a "legal illegal" tactic in Blood Bowl, in that the game rules incorporate (and to a degree encourage) it, but in-game your player can be sent off for doing it. But the risk/reward ratio is a bit out of whack, so it's not impossible to find entire teams of cheap positional players just fouling like crazy because they have a deep resource of players to replace the ones being sent off. This in turn has had a long-term effect of kind of making BB a game of "fouling brinksmanship" if you play with a foul-crazy group of coaches. I went on a little rant about it once that is now apparently part of the FUMBBL user guide or something.

If you're around later tonight (6 p.m. my time, 23h Greenwich time), I just made an Academy team yesterday to reacquaint myself with the client.
 
 
phoresy
11:15 / 23.04.07
Hello. This is my first post (and I'm probably going to revert back to lurk mode after this); but I just had to say thanks for bringing this up. I haven't played Blood Bowl for about ten years (when it tended to take a backseat to 40k anyway) but from what I remember I really enjoyed it; and would probably still be playing it if it wasn't fopr a lack of people.

Now I know about the Java client and online leagues, I can get back into it when I've got the time. If a Barbeleague does pop up I'd like to join if possible (losing to a wider variety of people is character building, apparently). My coach name is 'phoresy' is anyone is interested. Thanks.
 
 
Gaixo
14:48 / 24.04.07
I love Blood Bowl. Played in real life as a kid and more recently online. The online leagues are too small to enjoy, though, as one ends up playing the same people repeatedly.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:22 / 24.04.07
Really? FUMBBL's got a bazillion coaches -- not all active, but a heck of a lot more than you'd ever play in a "real" league.
 
 
Supaglue
09:40 / 25.04.07
Played a few games now and am really enjoying it (we've still gotta get it on Matt!), but I have one or two crticisms of the game mechanics:

1) The game favours high AV teams - throwing is hard to do, which tends be the specialty of lightly armoured squads. It is also likely that an elven/skaven coach will lose players right from the start. Even with a high Fan Factor, new players are expensive.

2) This is also reflected in the SPP skills - a skaven with a skill is not going to last as long with AV 7 as a dwarf with the same skill as AV 9 - so the dwarf's skill is more valuable. Also passing SPP is harder to get than casualties (I suppose Touchdowns give more SPP though).

3) Winning or losing has very little bearing on gate money - of course you win you get more, but the split is never that much/random. I've been playing as a skaven team and have beaten friends who are chaos or dwarfs but have received only 10k more winnings (I appreciate I foolishly started with a low fan factor). After I've replaced dead players, I'm usually left with less.

4) there's not a huge mount of things to buy - so High AV teams tend to have full teams and loads of cash

5) fan factor is not calculated very well - It's random with bonuses for winning, but it should take into account your win-lose tally or your touchdown rate to encourage people to actually try and win, rather than just demolish a team.

6) There's no provision to encourage people to score when they have superior numbers, except perhaps with gaining SPP for the touchdown. With casualties only being a few SPPs less it makes just trying to wipe out a team an equally attractive option. I've had a couple of games where I've started the second half with 7 men (lack of rerolls didn't help!) against Dwarfs, who have just kept the ball away and surrounded my men. So I spent 8 turns just standing them up to be knocked down again (or would have done were it not for the sportsmanship of the person I was playing). Not much fun that.


7) Dwarfs are too good a starting team - they cost roughly the same as elves, have AV 9, and most have thick skull, block AND Tackle as starting skills.

8) more than 2 rerolls per half is too many and takes away some of the random fun.

9) there's a fouling imbalance (that Matt picked up on in an earlier post).
 
 
Supaglue
09:41 / 25.04.07
I think some of this is improved upon in the 5th edition of the game from what i can see, but it's not in the Java game (too difficult to implement?).


Anyway, get making teams and give me a game!
 
 
Supaglue
10:16 / 25.04.07
Played in real life as a kid

I hope you mean the boardgame, Gaixo.....
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
10:39 / 25.04.07
Re. the "Dwarf Effect" -- that's an often-heard complaint, that high-AV teams (Dwarves, Orcs) do better in the long run than high-AG teams (Skaven, Elves) through simple attrition. Stats-wise, however, it doesn't really bear weight. You win games by scoring goals, and a well-run Skaven squad can still score with four or five Skaven on the field even against a full complement of Dwarves. So if you look at overall win percentages, especially for tournaments, even the highest-level tourneys don't weigh too much in favour of the bashy teams.

That's cold comfort when your team is getting kicked all over the pitch, though.

LRB 5 is far better than LRB 4, in my opinion, especially when it comes to the mechanic for balancing weaker teams that play stronger teams. But as you said, it would be a programming nightmare to code this new system (called Inducements) into the Java client, so FUMBBL is sticking with LRB 4.

I've been too busy to play since that initial post! It's ridiculous...
 
 
Quantum
11:03 / 25.04.07
The "Dwarf Effect" is well known, the answer is to run rings around their little chubby beards. In the board version some star players could nip past without getting tackled (sprinting through the zone around a character) so your elves could just get a touchdown and thus restart before the dwarves can start grinding them into paste.
Alternatively, a pair of skaven or elven blitzers will crush a dwarf if they act together. I used to use catchers to distract the rest of the team (cheap to replace, run fast!) then blitzers to pick off stragglers. If you can force the dwarves to bunch up for safety, it's easy to run past them and score.

Chaos dwarves are fun though.
 
 
Supaglue
12:22 / 25.04.07
the answer is to run rings around their little chubby beards.

Easier said than done old bean. The one weakness of dwarfs is their AG, but as most of them get tackle, nipping in and out of their zones is alot harder. And if you do score, getting the ball off them when they set into a cage phalanx and charge forward is impossible - with block for every linesman, a skaven equivalent has no chance. By the time it's my attack again, I've usually got very little left to do anything (5 or 6 skaven can't score against a full compliment of 11 dwarfs, especially from the kickoff when 3 have to set up on the line of scrimmage).

And even if I do win, in a 'campaign' team the lack of disparity between winning and losing means I've usually gotta buy replacement players, whereas they don't and can get another reroll or whatever.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
14:19 / 25.04.07
A Dwarf cage is a terrible thing to break, especially if you're playing with a fragile team like Skaven. The general strategy is (a) hope for them to win the coin toss and receive (or if you win the coin toss, kick) and force them into a quickish score (4-5 turns); (b) score fast with the rats, and (c) since you're receiving the next turn, score a second TD for the win, then try not to die for the rest of the game.

If you're finding dwarves frustrating to play against, make a dwarf team and seek out some high-rated coaches in Ranked to see what happens when an exceptional Skaven or Elf coach meets a dwarf squad. Or watch some replays, which are readily available and faster than playing a real game.
 
 
Supaglue
14:20 / 25.04.07
Good plan, I'll have a go and let yer know how I get on. Cheers.
 
 
Quantum
14:25 / 25.04.07
A Dwarf cage is a terrible thing to break

Good advice from Matt there. I let them charge forward unopposed and gang up on the stragglers in a pincer, then you get control after their TD and run around.
Is throwing/catching that hard in FUMBBL? With an elf thrower & catcher I thought it was about 90% success rate and it is their main advantage. If it's more difficult, is that to encourage kicking?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
14:35 / 25.04.07
A regular pass with an Elf thrower and catcher, if the TZs of both are entirely clear, should be 3+ pass and 2+ catch, with rerolls on both (Pass and Catch skills); a 1 always fails. So the pass has a 1/6 chance of failing (1/3, halved for re-roll) and the catch a 1/12. Which makes 3/12, or 25% chance of a fail.

I think. Math isn't my strong point.

Although leaving an Elf receiver wide open within regular pass range is a crime.
 
 
Quantum
15:26 / 25.04.07
Argh, I can't get java to work so my FUMBBL skaven team won't go!
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
12:11 / 11.06.07
jsut signed up to fumbbl, as a dwarf team. cannae wait to get started.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
14:26 / 12.06.07
This will not work on my work computer for love nor money. Back to the board I suppose. Must say the new human team is quite sexcellent.
 
 
phoresy
16:47 / 23.02.09
I don't know if this is new news, but.....
http://www.bloodbowl-game.com/videos/
 
  
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