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petunia
21:47 / 28.03.07
What do people know about mortgages?

I and my housemates are tempted to buy the house we currently rent. Apparently a morgtgage repayment would only be about the amount we pay in rent anyways, and the area is soon to be getting a lot of new development, so we stand to make a tidy profit once we move on.

So:

- Is it possible to get a mortgage between four people who have no legal ties (nobody married/related) to one-another?

- Is there any 'minimum stay' period to a mortgage? Could we move whenever we wanted, or would we have to stay here for X years?

- Is it a stupid idea for friends in their early twenties to get a mortgage together?

Basically, i'm seeing a mortgage as: 'The bank loans £X to buy a house, you repay this money. When you sell the house, you use the money to repay the mortgage and get to keep any extra value the house has accrued in the meantime.' Am i being silly naïve here? What factors am i skipping in my excitement?
 
 
Red Concrete
22:58 / 28.03.07
I think that as long as you go about it right, it's probably a good idea, and certainly it's feasible.

Going about it right means deciding who owns what - will you all contribute equally to the payments? what if one of you can't pay all their share one month? Also, what will happen if one of you wants to move out? Will the others be forced to buy them out, or will you all be forced to sell? Mortgages last decades, so it is very likely that this will happen.

There are probably lots of websites that can help you, depending on where you are, of course. But seeing a lawyer and getting those sort of details set in writing would be really important, I think.
 
 
Smoothly
23:01 / 28.03.07
What factors am i skipping in my excitement?

The interest?

It also might be a mistake to assume that the house will accrue extra value. It might lose value dramatically, particularly in the short to medium term.
 
 
ghadis
23:12 / 28.03.07
I've recently bought a place with my wife and whilst this was relativly painless (although it took about 4 months to go through) this was mainly down to her already being a property owner and having a fair amount of capital from the sale of her previous flat. You do need quite a large chunk of money at your disposal to go into it. The legal fees are huge. And it's very complicated. But apart from that i don't see why not. We're paying a lot less for a very large 3bed flat with huge garden than we would on a much smaller place if we were renting. And we get to emotionally invest in the place as it's ours and we're planning on being here a while. I would never think of putting as much fantasy thoughts into making a pond and trying to raise newts if i was renting.
 
 
ibis the being
00:49 / 29.03.07
Oy, I've been listening to a ton of NPR podcasts lately about the housing market downturn, exploding numbers of foreclosures, and folding mortgages companies. Mortgages are a lot more complicated than you are making them sound. Just for starters, there are a lot of different kinds, some much more wise than others, some outright paths to self-destruction. The smartest way to go about buying a house is not to assume that your home's value is going to go up and you are going to be able to sell at a profit (or even break even, in some markets)... that exact mindset is behind the soaring foreclosure rate in the US right now. I don't know where you're located, but in most areas of the US housing prices are heading down, and probably will continue to do so for a while... even in "hot" markets the prices are stagnant now.

The right way to buy a house for most people is to plan on taking 20-30 years to pay off that mortgage and to plan on keeping that house long term, as a residence, not a money-maker or some kind of credit account. Steer clear of adjustable rate mortgages, interest-only mortgages, balloon payment mortgages, and any kind of deal that allows you to not put a lot of money down, and not pay much now, but some time in the future when you are suddenly rich you'll start paying a lot more. Be aware that the biggest problem with foreclosures is happening in the subprime market, which means essentially people with not very great credit who would normally have to pay higher interest rates on any kind of loan.

Do your research... a lot of it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:37 / 29.03.07
Property is theft.

That may just be me, though. Good luck with whatever.
 
 
petunia
06:08 / 29.03.07
Property is theft.

I take it you squat then, stoats?
Never really appealed to me, and it seems to make more sense to become a thief, rather than pay one.

I don't know where you're located

Should've said; i'm in the uk.
But what is the market looking like? All the news, tv shows etc would have us believe it's better to get into property before prices rise eve further and we're forever left in the slums, but i've always kinda suspected that the market would 'do a dot com' sometime. A clever friend assures me that this isnt true of house prices. What's the deal there?

Having slept on it, the whole idea seems a lot more silly. The house we currently live in is a three-storey affair in Salford Quays, which is soon to be the site for the BBC's relocation (thus my confidence at the house's value increasing.

However, it's currently valued at £250,000, which isn't quite the 'bargain' i had assumed. Seems that's still a large amount of money - especially when only two of the four of us are earning over 15 grand...

Some of our parental parties have shown an interest in investing in the house, but this might just add to the potential nightmare that resides in multiple members of the mortgage.

What can i say? I'm an optimist...

As you say, i need to research. A lot.
 
 
Olulabelle
07:21 / 29.03.07
There is a special friends mortgage you can get, especially for people in a situation like yours. It's increasingly common because of house prices in the UK.

There some info on it on the firstrungnow site.
 
 
Ex
08:37 / 29.03.07
i've always kinda suspected that the market would 'do a dot com' sometime. A clever friend assures me that this isnt true of house prices. What's the deal there?

It's already happened once in my lifetime - in the early 1990s, house prices crashed so badly that some people's properties are (apparently) still crawling back from negative equity.

I'd also have long, long talks with your chums about how you would consider the property 'usable' - can one person sell their share to another person without full agreement of you all? What about if one of them needs a fuckload of cash suddenly - can they take out loans with the house as collatoral? Could you all chip in to pay for repairs if necessary?

I'm considering buying and I'm feeling rather anxious at doing so with one other person. I really like the idea(l) of communal living, but possibly the weight of communal ownership would make the existing arguments about who ate the last of the Jarlsberg even more excruciating.
 
 
illmatic
08:49 / 29.03.07
house prices crashed so badly that some people's properties are (apparently) still crawling back from negative equity.

There are a lot of reasons being given as to why this won't happen now - interst rates are nowehre near as high for starters. But who can say in the long term?

Two friends of mine have brought a place in London for much the same reasons that you give. I've a feeling that it's going to become all the more common in the future. There was a piece in The Guardian recently about unusual mortgage arragnemnts (too lazy to look for link).
 
 
Spaniel
08:59 / 29.03.07
I've been grappling with this stuff for the last few years, and, now that I'm finally buying a house, I still don't have many answers.

Here's a very short and very, very incomplete list of things to bear in mind.

- Even with 4 of you on the mortgage (which, I might add, may or may not be possible or advisible for technical, financial and/or social reasons), £250k is a lot of money and may well be outside any income multiplier value you're likely to be offered. If you do manage to club together a combined wage of £50k+ however, it could well be doable. Bear in mind though that that figure may need to be made up less than 4 wages depending on how many of you are allowed to be signed up to the loan.

- Parents can help you get a mortgage: they can act as guarantors if they make a good income and/or possess valuable assets, like property. They can also sign up to the mortgage themselves, but rely on you guys to pay it. These strategies, of course, come with real risks for the parents, but can also open up whole new worlds of borrowing possibility that would otherwise remain closed.

- Assuming the value of your multiplied income isn't fabulous, unless you can come up with a sizable deposit you might well find yourself being offered nothing but interest only mortgages (or nothing at all). I'm about to take on an interest only mortgage in one of the UK's property hotspots and, even with prices rocketing up in recent years, I'm pretty nervous about it. Oh, and I have a £52k deposit!

- The not-so-hidden costs of moving are astronomical. At £250,001 you are looking at a whopping 3% stamp duty rate, meaning you'll have to find £7500 upfront - and, even at £250k your still talking about £2.5k (1%). Then you've got your solicitors fees, valuation fees, and a survey to worry about. We're spending around £3700 on this stuff alone, that's before we start to consider any of the other niggling little costs like, you know, hiring a removal van.

- Depending on what you agree upfront, you can normally get out of or renegotiate your mortgage at little cost (a few hundred quid) after two or three years. You need to bear in mind however that negotiating this stuff with your co-signees might be difficult, you also need to bear in mind that should you wish to up sticks early there may well be a large penalty fee. A good friend of mine has recently split up with his partner, she wants to sell, he doesn't as it's before the end of their term and will cost them £8K. Not nice. Luckily, they've made a substantial profit on their property (interest only mortgage), so can sell and still feel the benefit.

- In many parts of the UK buying is cheaper than renting. To give you a crude example, we pay £600 pcm in rent at the moment on a nice one bed flat. I should stress that we get a relatively good deal and that it would likely cost us around £700 pcm if our landlady wasn't quite so ace. That said, our mortgage - in an admittedly much less nice but very nearby and getting a lot nicer area - will only cost us £690 pcm. If we were to move to an equivalent rental property it would cost us unthinkable amounts, and even if we stuck with a 2 bed flat I reckon we'd be looking at at least £800 pcm, quite possibly £850, maybe more. Basically, choosing to stay in Brighton and rent would be financially impossible, having a mortgage won't be.

- You can make real profits. I know people who have done it. Sadly, profits are not guaranteed in the short to medium term.

- Leaseholds and freeholds: KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!
 
 
Psych Safeling
09:53 / 30.03.07
My word. The times they really are a-changing. I thought Barbelith was my last property-discussion-free haven. I am therefore being incredibly selfless in helping here to collapse my own myth.

OK: issues. As flagged, the numbers of parties is a serious issue and if you want to avoid huge potential headaches you can probably add on quite a bit to your legal fees over and above basic conveyancing. I'm not sure how a sharing contract should be constructed - I assume if you have legal knowhow or a friend with such you can draw it up yourselves but you'd probably still want to pay for a notary/lawyer to witness your signatures. Draw it up with the worst of times in mind - i.e. imagine you are all baying for each others' blood and all good will has evaporated. You also need to make sure you go for tenants-in-common ownership if you want any chance of reflecting varying investments in the property.

I am very conservative and would always go for a fixed- or capped-rate mortgage. This means that you will know an absolute maximum for your monthly outgoings for a certain period (max is usually five years). If rates go down in that time, you will have an opportunity cost, in that you could have been paying less. If rates go up, though, your mortgage stays the same. Fixed rates depend (basically) on market expectations of future rates, and are usually more expensive. Capped rates will be even more expensive in general as you would have cheaper monthly payments if rates go down, but not more expensive if they go up (you pay a bit for this option). The downside is these will often have prepayment penalties attached, which would mean you lose out if you want to repay the mortgage (i.e. sell the property) in the fixed period. This would be a big issue for you guys given the joint ownership, but there are fixed rate mortgages out there with no prepayment penalty.

The risks are, broadly, that house prices go down and you either lose your deposit or go into negative equity. Because you lose your money before the bank, if you put in a 10% deposit, and prices go down 5%, you lose 50% of your investment. Ouch. If you lose more than you put in, you are in negative equity, i.e. selling the house will not repay the mortgage and you are left with net debt. On the other side, if they go up 5%, you make 50% on your initial investment.

The housing market is sensitive to various issues. 1) Interest rates - the higher these are, the more expensive it is to pay your mortgage on a monthly basis. This can reduce demand at the first-time-buyer level and reduce volumes as people are less able to trade up. It can also increase supply as some people become forced sellers. Reduced demand + increased supply = slowing price inflation. 2) Unemployment - again, people can't make the payments and have to sell their houses. Rates are low now, but in a way this is a disadvantage, as the Bank of England raises rates in 0.25% increments; so each increment costs you a lot more when base rates are at 5% than when they are at 15%. Each rate rise will therefore cause buyers a lot more pressure than it would if base rates were higher, as low rates have enabled them to take on a lot more debt.

One particularly big issue is that there has been a massive rise in the number of buy-to-let investments over the last few years (probably as people lost faith in the stock markets). If people can cover their interest payments by renting out the property, this is a sensible thing to do. If, however, rates rise more quickly than rents, and they have an adjustable-rate-mortgage, the landlord is faced with either coming up with the difference themselves or selling the property. Rising rates could therefore be associated with a particularly large influx of supply in the current market. Perhaps the overriding issue in the UK at the moment, though, is the imbalance between immigration and new home supply. Planning regulations mean that the homebuilders cannot keep up with demand, and this, in tandem with increasing numbers of second homes as the wealth 'plutonomy' increases (i.e. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, or a bigger proportion of the national wealth is increasingly concentrated in a smaller number of wallets), and the additional demand from buy-to-let (although this is largely contingent on rental yields remaining higher than interest rates), has meant that house prices have rocketed over the past few years. The other positive argument is that it has been very fashionable for the super-wealthy to settle in London (particularly Kensington and Chelsea), causing massive price inflation in these areas, and a huge pool of displaced cash that will be looking to reinvest in other areas, causing a slow 'ripple effect' out of central London and eventually out of the capital.

The risk of interest only mortgages is that you haven't repaid any of the capital - this becomes more and more pressing as the end of the mortgage approaches and you need to repay it, either by selling the house or by having an 'endowment policy' (mention that and watch your parents shudder). For a shorter term investment, because in the early life of a mortgage you pay very little capital off (because the payments are structured to be fixed through the life of the mortgage), this isn't such a risk for you guys, as I assume you'd have a relatively short time horizon anyway, and your preferred mode of exit is to sell the property and take away a lump of cash.

I am interested to hear Boboss' input on rental yields in Brighton - i.e. it's cheaper to buy than to rent. In London, I'm pretty sure the opposite is the case, particularly if you take into account the interest you are NOT making on your deposit cash by having it tied up in a property. Owner occupiers will buy instead of rent even when it's a little bit more expensive, in order to have the foot on the property ladder as well as having autonomy over decoration etc. It is worth thinking about the additional costs and the need for a slush fund to cover e.g. broken boilers. SO and I had about two months with no hot water when we bought our flat because we just didn't have the cash to fix it (and had no idea who to call!).

So, in summary, there DEFINITELY are risks, and you need to be aware of them. The papers are aflood with articles on the dynamics affecting the housing market and it's worth reading up on them all to get different views. HTH, as they probably say on personal financial chatrooms.
 
 
Spaniel
10:10 / 30.03.07
That's a really interesting point about the interest we could be making. With 52k at our disposal it's potentially a large sum of money and when measured against the extra cost of renting (and make no mistake renting would cost us more on a monthly basis) we'd probably be a few hundred quid or so richer year on year than we will now that we're buying. That, of course, doesn't take into account the potential for the housing market to go up - and I'm pretty sure it will where we're going to be living, although, yeah, you can never know. It's a gamble basically, but a gamble with reasonable odds.

Also, while bunging our cash into an investment/saving scheme might mean that we see more money annually, it would also be pretty difficult from a practical point of view as we simply couldn't afford the upfront expense of renting the kind of property we need in this city.
 
 
Smoothly
10:53 / 30.03.07
I found a really good article summarising some of the pros and cons when I was mulling over the pros and cons of buying last year. Unfortunately the article doesn't seem to be online any more, so forgive me for pasting it in here:

Is buying a house the wrong move for you?
Thursday, June 15, 2006

By Chris Gilchrist


Are you rushing to get on the property ladder as soon as possible and stretching yourself financially to do it? Perhaps you would be better off renting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in residential property as a long-term investment. But I think it's very important to be realistic about the short-term outlook. I don't believe I will make any money out of owning my home for the next few years, or if I do, it will be quite marginal. 'So why own your home?' you may ask, and I'll come back to that later.

First, let's explore the financial consequences of a static property market over the next five years - and don't think this is unlikely, because after the huge rise we've seen over the past five years, it's certainly possible. Prices fell by 25% in the last property recession that started in 1989, and while I don't say that is likely over the next five years, the most important thing you can do to improve your wealth over the long term is not to project the recent past into the future - this consistently leads to the biggest losses.

Add up the costs
OK, so we imagine a flat property market over five years, and we assume you are buying a £300,000 house with a £250,000 mortgage, putting down £50,000 of your own money as a deposit.

Your initial costs of purchase will be about £12,000, of which £9,000 will go to the Treasury in Stamp Duty and the rest to the professional pirates (lawyers, valuers and surveyors). Over the next five years, you should expect to spend an average of £500 or so a year on repairs and maintenance, a total of £2,500.

Short-term buying soon adds up
You will also pay about £300 a year for buildings insurance, another £1,500 over five years. Add all these costs and they amount to £16,000. Now suppose you want to sell: it will set you back about £6,000 in estate agents and lawyers' fees. So your total costs of buying, selling and ownership over 5 years are £22,000.

Now if you have a 25-year repayment mortgage and pay 5% interest you will pay off £29,000 of a £250,000 mortgage in the first five years and only owe £221,000. So, setting these two figures against each other, you are theoretically £7,000 ahead.

And the invisible costs too
But wait a minute. In many areas, especially London, renting is cheaper than owning. You might well be able to rent that £300,000 home for £1,260 per month instead of the £1,460 the mortgage repayments will set you back- so there is another cost, this time adding up to £2,400 a year or £12,000 over the five-year term.

Finally, suppose you hadn't bought - you could have invested your £50,0000 at a fixed return of 5% and earned £14,000 on it over five years. Add back these last two 'costs' and instead of being in profit you are now £19,000 worse off from buying rather than renting.

Small changes in prices can make a big difference
The reason many people don't think about the costs like this is that they are borrowing such a big proportion of the value of their property that a small percentage change in its value outweighs all these costs. If the value of the property rises by just 5% over five years, that's £15,000 and you are almost back in the black again. A 10% rise - less than 2% a year over five years - and you are in profit.

Of course there will be big regional variations in these figures, and the costs of ownership are lower for less valuable properties, partly because of lower stamp duty and smaller gaps between the costs of ownership and renting. Still, if you're contemplating a move from renting to ownership, I believe you should run your own figures to work out your own potential profits or losses using different assumptions for property price trends.

The least likely scenario is the past
Of course it's possible that homeowners will make a nice profit over the next five years - I don't know for sure what will happen any more than you do. Except that the only way you can reasonably expect a repeat of the past five years with a 100% rise in property prices is for us to suffer a wave of inflation almost certainly accompanied by economic disaster. Today, the least likely scenario is a continuation of the boom (again, think about how easy it is just to project the past into the future without considering the implications).

So the possibility of a flat property market isn't something you should ignore, though don't expect any estate agent in the land to give it more than a microsecond's thought. Like any bandwagon, residential property has so many people cheering it on (including the vast majority of journalists who write about it) that the positive case is bound to get most coverage.

Why I still favour ownership
By now you may be asking why I bother owning a house at all. I seem to have made out a good case for renting rather than owning. So here are the reasons why I still expect to own my home in five years' time:

Control: I value being able to do what I want with my property, to make it my home rather than somewhere I live, and am prepared to pay for that.
Flexibility: I am confident that if I wanted to move, I could rent my property and get enough to cover my mortgage.
Improvement: over a five-year period, I believe I can add more to the resale value of my home than what I spend on it.
Value: in the long run, I believe property values will rise at a somewhat faster rate than inflation, so for me, with an intended ownership term of 10 years or more, a period of stable prices is not a problem.
Diversification: I have a bigger chunk of my personal wealth in financial assets (pension funds, shares, ISAs etc) than in property, so my financial exposure to a fall in property prices is limited.

Safety first
The most important thing you can do to reduce risk in property ownership is to think about rentability. If it all goes wrong, the best-located properties (shops, schools, transport) are always the easiest to let.

Worst bets are residential areas where many people work for one local employer or set of employers (the Thames Valley in general suffered after 2000 because of the number of technology-related businesses that fired people). And sadly, a bog-standard design property is always going to sell or rent more easily than an interesting one-off.

Only hindsight ever provides clarity about financial decisions. We make most of them in fog and the only issue is how thick it is. At least if you weigh up all the factors I've outlined here before making a decision you'll have less cause for regret, whatever the outcome - which just about sums up my definition of grown-up financial planning.
 
 
Quantum
15:33 / 31.03.07
Leaseholds and freeholds: KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!

I echo Boboss with great emphasis.
 
  
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