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Banning Booze

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20:43 / 23.03.07

Maybe it's me mellowing on the smoking ban, maybe it's the premium rate telephone lines 'scandals', but I'm beginning to warm to the idea of governments being more paternalistic. Coupled with this, I'm increasingly down on booze. It's horrible stuff that really does no one any good. According to the latest study into the relative harmfulness of recreational drugs, alcohol comes in 6th (after Heroin, coke, barbiturates, and methadone). Tobacco comes in 9th (just after the horse tranquilisers and amphetamines). So, you know, good company.

It might be impractical to police complete prohibition, but what if we ban drinking in public places, along the lines of the smoking model?

Personally I hate public drunkenness. Sure, I've been guilty of it myself, but I always regret it in the morning and would appreciate having temptation taken away from me. I'd miss having wine with a meal, or the odd pint after work, but I could live without it.

If I couldn't get drunk in pubs and restaurants I reckon I'd get drunk less, and that would be good for my liver and health generally. And for those times when I really fancy a drink I can always have drinks at home, so it wouldn't entirely lose its use as a social lubricant. Drinking at home is a lot cheaper so I would also save money. Not that this would stop me going out at all, I just wouldn't drink when I was out. It's not that hard. I stopped drinking for a month earlier this year and it was surprisingly easy once you (and the people you're out with) get used to it. In fact, seeing my drinking buddies through sober eyes was a pretty informative experience.

Obviously, I'd also be a lot safer. Not just from drink drivers, but it's estimated that around 70% of violent crimes are alcohol related.

So, let's ban drinking in public places. What are the pros and cons? Would it be practical?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:03 / 23.03.07

Socially it'd be a fucker for those of us who live in one-bedroom flats.

23:02 / 23.03.07

Pregnancy rates would plummet, you realise? With an aging population, decreasing fertility rates, etc.. you can't ignore these things. Not that I advocate drunken sex - keep it safe, kids!

23:08 / 23.03.07

and for those who enjoy being pissed like a twat on the tube on the way home from work of the evening...

I'm one of those. I usually work until 8 and we often have a few cans from 6ish, it being the sort of job where you are able to do that. So i'm regularly in the position, like tonight, of having 3 or 4 Red Stripes under my belt and taking the journey home. Not in a brown paper bag as i don't see that there is anything wrong with drinking in public.Although you do get a few looks, but fuck them. Alas, being drunken in public is also somthing that i have many, many times done and it's not really that nice. The 11am-4pm variety especially.

23:15 / 23.03.07

But saying that, i would be cool with a ban on drinking on public transport as much as i'd dislike it. In the same way as, as a smoker, i'm not looking forward to the smoking ban in pubs but i kind of think its a good idea.

As long as Ken gets together the idea of Smoking Drinking Pens, maybe somewhere out past Hanwell or something, where free busses are laid on from central London and back. It can be like Deadwood.

23:56 / 23.03.07

I see what you're doing, Mr Smoothly - 100 days to go till the smoking ban - where does the Nanny State stop?

I had a good debate with several addictions workers the other day at a workshop I ran where we tried to decide whether the Government would ever go for a similar booze ban. The overwhelming consensus was that this would be undesirable and unworkable but also that we would all have said the same about the upcoming smoking ban's chances a decade ago. And the Irish and the Scots have already shown us the smoking ban can work.

However, I think the failure of Prohibiton in the US has cast a long shadow. And, in terms of just banning public consumption, aren't there already laws governing public drunkenness? The Institute of Alcohol Studies tells me:

Drinking in Public Places
• Byelaws prohibiting consumption of intoxicating liquor in designated places
- Over 100 local authorities have now introduced such byelaws since Coventry achieved the first
• Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Act 1997
- Gave police the power to confiscate alcohol from under 18s drinking in public places (streets, parks, etc) who are creating disorder.

Drunkenness
The Licensing Act 1872 created two main kinds of drunkenness offence:
1) Simple drunkenness
- being drunk on any highway or other public place, or on any licensed premises. It also provided an offence of being drunk while in charge on a public highway of any carriage – which includes a bicycle, a horse, cattle (which includes pigs and sheep), a steam engine, or when in charge of a loaded firearm.
2) Drunkenness with aggravation, which includes being drunk and disorderly; refusing to leave licensed premises when requested; being drunk whilst in possession of any loaded firearms or while having charge of a child aged under seven.

None of the above tallies with the amount of drinking and drunkenness in public that I see all around me, more so as I near the centre of town. I don't see that being policed much. Which is just as well, since I'm often a bit unsteady on my feet as I zigzag home from a social event. Sometimes even a tiny wee bit belligerent, when in my cups.

I would clearly benefit from the Draconian measures you envisage.

00:26 / 24.03.07

Hate to be all Daily Mail about it but cant we just get more Bobbys on the beat? What happened to the short lived Guardian Angels on the tube? They were doing a fine job for about 2 weeks back in 98 i seem to remember. Bring them back! Great uniforms!

00:53 / 24.03.07

Please tell me they wore bright white suits and hats, with shiny white leather shoes and party-shop angel-wings. That would rock.

01:04 / 24.03.07

I think this thread and the 'For Those About To Drink' thread should get together and fight it out. Maybe in the style of a Tibetan firewater shot-glass competition, á la Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Seriously, I'm in favour of banning tobacco where it causes passive health problems (indoors smokey bars). But drunkenness and even drinking is already banned in the street. I don't have an alternative solution, but alcohol and drunkenness is so glorified here in Britain, and in such a casual manner. Well, the fact that even Barbelith has a LETS GET PISHED thread.....

01:16 / 24.03.07

I think prohibition's utter failure has proven that it's not very viable to completely ban the drinking of alcohol in public places. Somehow, it's so ingrained in western european culture, that I would find it very difficult to believe any such actions could be taken.

As for the glorification of alcohol-consumption in england, watching the entire series of black books today does hint at such a thing...

On a side-note, I'm worried that the upcoming smoking ban also proposed here in the netherlands could mean the end of our beloved coffee-shops, which would please the belgian, french and german governments to no end undoubtedly, but be a mighty blow to our status as one of the more drug-friendly states in europe.

01:28 / 24.03.07

'But drunkenness and even drinking is already banned in the street...'

Not from where i'm slumping. There is not, nor has there ever been, a bar on drinking in the streets. Select areas maybe but its not very enforced. I'm pretty sure that i can stagger past a policeman in many parts of London holding a half empty bottle and will seldom get called up on it. And quite right too. It's none of their business. If, however, i get a bit leary and start trying to start fights or try and harrass a beautful young lass who's just finished her first work experience day at the office and just wants to catch the 6.15 to Penge, then, of course i agree.

01:32 / 24.03.07

All the more reason for a few of us chipping in and invading the Isle of Wight and doing a Deadwood.

*

01:40 / 24.03.07

Where I live, there's a ban on drinking in public places (other than licensed establishments), and it causes problems with enforcement—if you're drinking out of an unmarked container, LEOs need probable cause to try to find out what's in it directly. And in my neighborhood it happens that it's usually the folks chugging mixed drinks out of unmarked cups who are causing problems, not the folks who just walked outside for a minute with a beer in hand.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

01:47 / 24.03.07

So if I go outside to have a cigarette I can't take my pint? That would suck.

02:00 / 24.03.07

That a very good point Stoatie. Like everywhere else the people who are making a killing are the outside heater companies. Fair enough to them. But what about the pubs who don't have beer gardens.

I LIKE MY SMOKEY BOOZER!!!!

02:04 / 24.03.07

We will have booze/fag pills soon anyway. Tomorrows World.

*

02:05 / 24.03.07

Mmm, fag pills.

02:08 / 24.03.07

I don't care anyway. I'm going swimming in the morning.

night all

15:29 / 24.03.07

Not that this would stop me going out at all, I just wouldn't drink when I was out.

Well yes, but there would, pretty quickly, be less places to go out to. And I suppose the ones that did manage to stay open would have to put up their prices fairly dramatically so as to off-set the loss of revenue from bar sales. I mean £20 to go and see an indie band, anyone?

Fairly clearly, there is a problem with alcohol consumption in this country (I used to be in the habit of listening to Radio 1 on Saturday morning, and it was always a bit alarming to the hear the DJs boasting about how bladdered they'd got the evening before,) but I'm not sure if driving the committed drinker back into his or her own home would do much to help resolve it, really. The guy who's out for six pints in the pub with his friends would seem to be in a better position than the same man sat at home on his own with a bottle of vodka, in front of the TV.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:52 / 24.03.07

Getting drunk before going out would also lead to hangovers at inopportune moments- ie just when the band comes on.

16:04 / 24.03.07

Well yes, but there would, pretty quickly, be less places to go out to. And I suppose the ones that did manage to stay open would have to put up their prices fairly dramatically so as to off-set the loss of revenue from bar sale

I wondered about the economic impact on the hospitality/entertainment industries, but I don't think it would be as severe as you're suggesting. I think there will always be a demand for places to gather and be entertained, fed and watered. I don't think the removal of alcohol from the menu would destroy the market.

I'd be interested to hear from any non-drinkers here.

The guy who's out for six pints in the pub with his friends would seem to be in a better position than the same man sat at home on his own with a bottle of vodka, in front of the TV.

He might be in a better position, but the other people in the pub or its environs probably aren't. Yes, it's not perfect that the hardened drinker would be confined behind closed doors with his wife and kids, but from a utilitarian point of view it's probably a win.

And I do think it would make it easier for people to address problem drinking. As several people have said, drinking is ingrained in our culture, and by removing the drinking culture at large I think drinkers and non drinkers would benefit.

16:52 / 24.03.07

He might be in a better position, but the other people in the pub or its environs probably aren't.

I don't know if the average six pint a night man is necessarily a problem though, at least in sort of way. It seems to me the trouble starts when people aggressively set out with the stated intention of getting as drunk as humanly possible on happy hour shots and so on, and then launching themselves on the town; it would seem a bit much for the general public to have their liberties curtailed because of a minority that could arguably be better policed in other ways, even assuming that policing it would be the right thing to do, given the long list of behaviours the police are already expected to cope with.

As far as the impact of loss of revenue to the nightlife industry goes, well it's difficult to call, but as a occasional viewer of 'Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares', I'm often struck by the amount of emphasis he puts on bar sales, when the restaurant in question's in danger of going under.

Mon Oncle Ignatius

16:57 / 24.03.07

You'd almost definitely see the end of small-scale clubs and gigs - the venue generally lives off the bar takings, while the promoter takes the door, which (in theory) goes to the bands/DJs/artists/promoter and sundry expenses. If the venue has no income from a gig, they'll start charging the promoter either a fee where none existed before, or even more than they already do.

17:07 / 24.03.07

I don't know if the average six pint a night man is necessarily a problem though, at least in sort of way.

I dunno, I often find 6-pint-a-night men to be a problem. And I know I can be a problem after 6 pints.
I agree that it's regrettable that moderate drinkers should lose some freedom, but I couldn't think of a way that could be policed. What other ways were you thinking?

As far as the impact of loss of revenue to the nightlife industry goes, well it's difficult to call, but as a occasional viewer of 'Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares', I'm often struck by the amount of emphasis he puts on bar sales, when the restaurant in question's in danger of going under.

True, but that's because it's an option. He'd put even more emphasis on the coke and blowjobs sales if that were an option. It wouldn't be as if they would have to compete with a restaurant across the road that did sell alcohol.
Also, bars have a much higher margin on soft drinks than they do alcoholic ones.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:12 / 24.03.07

Also, bars have a much higher margin on soft drinks than they do alcoholic ones.

So why would people got to bars at all? Cafes would do well, but there're a hell of a lot of pubs in this country which would go under.

17:13 / 24.03.07

They'd just turn into something else, wouldn't they?

Mon Oncle Ignatius

17:18 / 24.03.07

Not weed cafés, though. That won't be an option.

jentacular dreams

17:23 / 24.03.07

Cafes would do well, but there're a hell of a lot of pubs in this country which would go under.

They'd just turn into something else, wouldn't they?

Houses I'd imagine.

17:32 / 24.03.07

Sure. Or cafés or shops or all sorts of things. It's not like you have to have an alcohol license to have a profitable business. And without the big pub chains shouldering them out of the city centres, it might give some nice small businesses a chance.

18:13 / 24.03.07

It’s no doubt the joyless, bitter non-drinker-of-pints-of-bitter in me, but as above, I’d be less bothered about banning drinking in public spaces so much as banning drunk people from them. There’s a cost to inebriated souls staggering home (whether they’re in charge of various farm animals at the time or not) that’s borne by the rest of us that’s not entirely covered by what the police are able to enforce. The unpredictability of whether that drunk groups of lads is jovially making their way home or whether they’ll take it upon themselves to shout some abuse at whoever’s passing by, before we even get to whether they’ll do something that the police are slightly more likely to do something about.

Maybe there should just be a massive tax/price hike in alcohol sold on public premises. Enough to allow for a couple of drinks for most folk, but not for a public binge. Enforced moderation. If you feel the compulsion to get shitfaced then you can fuck off home with your carry-oot and leave the rest of us (responsible drinkers and non-drinkers alike) in peace. The slightly better off can get round this fairly easily of course, but then you’d hope that sloshed toffs have slightly more style than to have to walk home.

That or draconian enforcement by some sort of nocturnal, vigilante Sober Patrol.

Who’s with me?

[volunteers please supply your own nightsticks, shiny shiny boots and caffeine pills]

18:28 / 24.03.07

Maybe there should just be a massive tax/price hike in alcohol sold on public premises.

I'm not sure I want drunk rich people on the streets any more than I want drunk poor people.

There’s a cost to inebriated souls staggering home (whether they’re in charge of various farm animals at the time or not) that’s borne by the rest of us that’s not entirely covered by what the police are able to enforce. The unpredictability of whether that drunk groups of lads is jovially making their way home or whether they’ll take it upon themselves to shout some abuse at whoever’s passing by

Right. And I think this is the problem with the current law on public drunkenness. So to me it's a bit like the law against offensive weapons in public places. There are already laws against stabbing people but you're also not allowed to wield the means to do so, even if you want it for whittling and horses hooves.

18:35 / 24.03.07

I'm not sure I want drunk rich people on the streets any more than I want drunk poor people.

Oh I agree. I just think there's a far greater chance that they'll take taxis, rickshaws or personal limos home is all.

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:19 / 24.03.07

Why stop at banning alcohol? I'm often scared by the uncouth gangs who prowl our streets at night, being all intimidating - so why not simply introduce an 8 o'clock curfew?

20:39 / 24.03.07

I knew you’d agree Flyboy. Alcohol’s contribution to social disorder is clearly an illusory problem dreamed up by those damned liberals to confuse the real issue, the lack of proper discipline in our degenerate society.

An enforced curfew is probably the safest option you’re right.

Time to go polish my nightstick…

20:50 / 24.03.07

What the fuck!? no banning of drinking! bad idea.

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