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Sufism

 
 
kanaris
09:31 / 13.03.07
I haven't seen a thread on this yet, apart from the Tales of the Mullah one, so I thought I'd start one.

From what I understand of Sufism (wikipedia link) (from Idries Shah, and other westernised teachers), it claims to be a pre-Mohammed religion/philosophy that attached itself to Islam as it seemed the best way to get themselves better heard. I've also read that they seem to identify/ally themselves with early christian gnosticism - in the sense that they teach the hidden secrets of both religions. There is also the sense that Sufism is only barely tolerated by mainstream Islam, as they're somehow seen to be muslim in name only.

I find the concept and basic philosophy extremely interesting, yet I feel somewhat hampered by studying a 'taught' or master-disciple based philosophy by myself.

Is anyone on the board a practising Sufi or have any experience of it? any comments - whether from Muslims or Gnostics etc. would be greatly appreciated.
 
 
Earlier than I thought
17:54 / 13.03.07
I just happen to be re-reading Shah's Subleties of Mulla Nasrudin at present and I can't recommend it enough. I know next to nothing about Sufism, but these stories are amusing and reminiscent of Zen koans. The Wikipedia entry has more.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
05:34 / 14.03.07
Most, if not all, of what I know of Sufism comes from Rumi. Someone once described Sufism to me as "Zen Islam". Reading Rumi I can sort of see the connection, but I wonder how much of the flavor I'm getting is Rumi and how much is Sufism.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
05:47 / 14.03.07
Further research has revealed that Sufism does indeed have several things in common with Zen schools of thought (annihilation of the self, for instance). Still having trouble seperating Rumi from Sufism, but maybe that's not really important.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:24 / 21.03.07
Speaking purely from a non-practicing and academically interested pov, I'd recommend reading stuff by and about Muhammad Ibn' Arabi, one of the greatest Sufis, poet, philosopher, known as al-Shaykh al-Akbar, the Great Master. A grand synthesiser of ideas that integrated many strands of Islamic mysticism into a monist, possibly pantheist framework that was later summarised in the phrase Wahdat al-Wujud, rougly translated as "unity of being".

Links:
Wikipedia
The Ibn' Arabi Society
An introductory article by William Chittick, one of the foremost Ibn' Arabi scholars

I especially recommend Chittick's book The self-disclosure of God: Principles of Ibn Al-'Arabi's Cosmology as a great introduction (tough reading tho).

Happy reading!
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
22:29 / 07.06.07
Tired of my ignorance, I recently started The Sufis by Idries Shah. I'm only two chapters in, and although it's a little dry so far, I'm enjoying it.

The first chapter resolves the dilemma of why, although Sufism is "universal in source, scope and relevance", it has a reputation of being an esoteric branch of Islam. The second is primarily concerned with the tales of Mulla Nasrudin and the deeper levels of each of the seemingly lighthearted stories. It reads like several books on Zen that I've read.

Can't wait to finish. Too bad I don't actually own the book (I'm reading the copy in Borders. Normally I'd take it home and finish it, replacing the book on the shelf when I'm through with it, but the nebulous morality of this sort of thing has me just reading it when I'm in the store).
 
 
*
23:15 / 07.06.07
Some Sufis regard Shah's books as misleading.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
00:43 / 08.06.07
In academic circles not so much misleading as perhaps idiosyncratic. Not an orthodox sufi for sure. One big reason being that, although himself a member of the Naqshbandi order, he believed that Sufism predated the founding of Islam. He's sometimes lumped in with Gurdjieff/4th wayers/perennialists as a sort of Neo-sufi. In any case, start with the medieval Shayks and masters, like Jilani, Rabia, Kabir, al-Ghazali and Rumi. Get a feel for the background of these people and the broader Islamic context which this branch we call Sufism grew from. Idries Shah has from what I've read and can remember some good points, but old skool soofi he ain't.
 
 
l gyre
07:31 / 08.06.07
this is hard to talk about both because my understanding is not very good and because sufism, like zen, seems to focus a lot on concepts which are difficult to express in simple expository terms, as well as on spreading confusing "false" information. however, it's something i've struggled a lot to learn a little about, so in case it helps, here are my impressions:

there are basically two types of people/organizations who self-identify as sufi. one actually is a somewhat unorthodox mystical branch of islam. the other is the idries shah-sufism is an ancient philosophy-even less possible to pin down-no one religious tradition type. these types may have once been more unified, or they may still be secretly unified in the upper echelons-- i have no idea, but in terms of the philosophy they openly espouse, there does seem to be this divide. personally, it's the shah type that i'm mostly interested in, because the way i got interested was by reading "the sufis" and having an "i want some of what he's got" moment. "the sufis" is the most in-depth and explanatory text i've encountered. it's interesting because it explains a lot, but it also uses sufic writing techniques to teach you things in ways besides logical explanation, so it jumps around a lot and is peppered with stories, poems, word play, etc. i've read less of "the way of the sufi", and what i have read was somewhat less compelling to me, but it claims to be a sort of manual for practicing sufism.

a frustrating thing about sufism is the suggestion that when you're ready for a teacher one will find you, and until then your efforts will be for nothing. but if you want to make those efforts anyway, you should know that most of the active groups you will find most easily will be of the islamic variety. there seem to be a number of those available by doing some web searches. as far as i can tell, the institute for the study of human knowledge (ishkbooks.com) is an extension of the groups shah worked with. it does seem to have publications and events, so you might be able to meet some knowledgeable people through it, however, it doesn't publicly call itself sufi. which might or might not mean anything, because it seems to focus on many of the same topics, and part of the philosophy seems to be that the name doesn't mean much, especially the more well-known it becomes. i am a little frustrated by certain aspects of this group, particularly that some of their modern publications strike me as pretty sexist, but it's hard to say for sure what that is all about. and of course, even if they are a direct descendant of shah's groups, that doesn't necessarily mean that that particular branch of the tradition is still "alive".

and yeah, rumi. coleman barks does nice translations, but as far as i know only of individual "poems" (cut, i think, from larger texts). rumi's original works (most famously the mathnawi) were his own far-ranging compilations of instruction, stories, poetry, etc, so if you want to study sufism by way of rumi you might want to check out something unabridged if you can find it.

i hope some of that is helpful...
 
 
kamals
03:20 / 26.09.07
Concerning the Dervishes and Sufis: This is my perspective on a matter that is highly nuanced. Understanding often requires our questioning certain assumptions and pushing certain comfort zones of what we think to be, or would like to be, true.
I welcome those interested to read further, and those who aren't interested quite simply aren't.

This can't be easily articulated. Sufism is a path requiring GREAT courage and great self questioning, painful at times. The Sufi begins by extensively questioning the conditioned aspects of the self, those conditioned by psychic wounds and damaging experiences, and in particular those conditioned by our dominant cultures. The point isn't questioning for questionings sake, but to get to the root of what's essential in the Self.

- Why do you and I believe what we believe?
- How do you and I know what we know to be true?
- How do we know who and what we are?
- How do you know what you know? Why do you know what you know?
- Our cultural, religious, spiritual, political, and social views - how did we develop them?

The Sufis seeks through rigorous self-examination experiential knowledge of this and more. The great Sufi, al-Ghazzali writes his account of his "conversion" to Sufism through a rigorous Kant-like systematic questioning of every form of epistemology he was aware of in his book "Munqidh Min al-Dalal" (available in English as "The Confessions of Ghazzali") I recommend this book, as does Idries Shah.

This is a bit of what I understand based on what little I have learned - My father himself was initiated into a Sufi Tariqa (path or brotherhoods) in India, and I was formally introduced to practice of two Sufi Tariqas as an adult - the Naqshbandi and the Shattari - and have befriended a great number of members of the Darqawi / Shadhli Tariqa over the years. In all I have spent the last 16 years studying the matter from the exterior as well as the interior.

I have my biases, I am a western, black, Muslim raised with an intellectual and practical appreciation of Sufism (or Tasawwuf properly speaking) as well as formal exoteric Islam. My biases color what i write, I leave it as an exercise to the reader to not sift the convenient from this, but to sift the truly useful and use it as an occasion to acquire a wider knowledge of the world and of a school of thought that has produced some of the most profound art, poetry, architecture, and thought the world has known.

The issues are nuanced, not given to simplifications. Anyone reading the source books Shah himself refers to would quickly see that his view was a simplification, and indeed a useful one. Think of an "Invisible College" bearing teachings that directly confront the mental conditioning of the audience that would best profit from their understanding, what is needed is a semantic slipping under cognitive filters not with a purpose to deceive but to get the self to be able to honestly weight a matter on its own merits, stripped of filters set in place to limit one's perception of reality.

Perenialist philosophers, like Rene Guenon, Julius Evola, Frithjof Schuon, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Huston Smith, etc., have similar more explicitly stated positions. I've heard from Nasr's own mouth his grave misgivings of Shah, though he also expressed a real respect for Shah.

Many Sufi teachers do regard Shah's writings with suspicion. I grew up on his writings literally since the age of 10, and I understand the suspicion of non-Western Sufi teachers towards shah.

I myself disagree with him on some points but overall his project was to present a specific set of potentially highly empowering teachings to a specific audience with specific cultural conditioning in a specific time frame.

His writing career had a specific direction, his earliest writings followed the writings of his Father, Sidar Ikbal Shah, and were educational works on Islam for British readers.

- Next his writings focused on Magic and non-Islamic esoteric streams.
- Next he wrote extensively on Sufism first as surveys of the field, and then increasingly using traditional Afghan Sufi teaching stories ending with his popular mullah Nasrudin tales...

- Next he wrote a bunch of Childern's books and finally a novel about the Afghani / soviet jihad (Kara Kush) - check it out, its a great read.. really.

There is a thread that winds through his writings, from his travel account of his "Hajj" to Mecca and his travels in Saudi Arabia, to his accounts of the "Hadiths (teachings) of Muhammad, to his books on Western and Eastern ceremonial Magic, to Sufism, to Kid's stories and novels. The reader's challenge is to discover it. It can not be pointed out. it must be discovered.

I submit, with humility, that there is misunderstanding of what Shah wrote. His argument wasn't that Sufism was some sort of pre-Islamic philosophy that grafted itself onto Islam - a popular misunderstanding and some of Shah's later writings support this ambiguity on purpose, mainly as a draw to Western readers who seem to have some real antipathy towards anything associated with Islam.

I submit that what he actually argued, correctly, is that Sufism, and the Sufis, predated the establishment of present day Islam as a formal religion. There is a vast difference between these two notions.

The essence of what people call Sufism is the essence of every esoterism, many Sufis believe, and part of an unbroken chain of teaching through the ages, at times.

The Sufi teacher and Islamic prophet, Khidr, is the symbolic representative of this - a universal wandering teacher initiating individuals through the ages into specific esoteric teachings. There are stories of Khidr in Shah's writings, and a cryptic painting resembling the Tarot trump "The Hermit" on the cover of his book "Caravan of Dreams"

If you can find that book, contemplate the painting, then read the book back and forth, then read the story in the Arabian nights (Burton's translation) of Maruf the Cobbler. There is a key in this.

- Exoteric Islam itself is typified by the Sharia. Esoteric Islam is typified by the "Tariqa" though there are non Sufi expressions of Esotericism in Islam (particularly in the Iranian world).

This is similar to the split between Taoism and Confucianism in the Chinese world. Both were absolutely necessary and both formed a dynamic tension throughout the history of the Chinese tradition. The I-Ching is the root from which both Taoism and Confucianism stream.

Islam is similar and itself has the notion that it is simply the latest expression of a continual chain of exoteric religious traditions. Sufism states the same thing, that esotericism predates present day Islam but Sufism is a uniquely Islamic expression of a timeless and universal truth, just as exoteric Islam is a unique expression of other related timeless and universal truths.

The Sufi teacher sees in himself a task of awakening people in specific times and places to the fullness of their human potentiality through the understanding certain esoteric principles, and through the practice of specific exercises, which may vary due to cultural conditioning of the people being taught, to dissolve the subject/object split and cause a realization of the essential oneness of the cosmos, and disciplining and then dissolving the conditioned aspects of the Ego.

People often have manufacture red ideas regurgitating views and notions handed to them by their culture and unable to directly perceive reality – the dominant culture's basic assumptions are unquestioned. The practices of Sufism
Some practices are often similar to those of Zen Buddhism, whilst others are similar to other esoteric streams. The notion in some Western Ceremonial Magicians of "knowing thy Holy Guardian Angel" is similar to what I write below.

The Sufi's seek an end state that isn't a blissed out state of nirvana, which is a stage of the Sufi path called Fana - or extinction. The Sufi seeks to move beyond this.

In Fana the ego is de-conditioned to the point that the individuality of the subject appears to dissolve and the subject feels himself in a state of union with the cosmos itself.. or he experiences utter extinction, utter emptiness of all phenomena and of the self itself and experiences the sensation of being drowned in an ocean of being.

The final stage is called "Baqa" and it is the conditional return of the human individuality and the return to consciousness with a new understanding of, and identity with, what we believe to be the real self of the individual, which we believe has an essential identity to the Self itself (the Atman - see Ananda Coomerswamy's essay on Transmigration on this point).

The Self being an aspect of the divine reality hence the Sufi saying "He who knows himself knows his Lord".

The Sufi no longer perceives the "Oneness of Being" she once again perceives duality but perceives the emptiness of duality and the underlying unity of all things is an experiential matter that is "tasted" (or dhawq).

THIS IS GNOSIS at its final point, "dhawqi knowledge" experiential knowledge of the reality of the phenomena, seeing all phenomena as the movement of divine energies and "acts"

"Allah is reality" the Sufi says, al-Haq. On the cover of some of Shah's books is the Arabic calligraphy of the word Haq, on others is the word "Huwa" or "Hoo" which means "He" here being a reference to God.

Strip away the chatter of the mind, strip away all conditioned habits and silence the thoughts for a moment and SOMETHING still watches, observes, and experiences. By de-conditioning the external individual, our grazing habits, our idiosyncrasies, we come to realize what and who we truly are.


"Dunya" is the illusory nature of the world, Dunya is mistranslated as "the world" - it is a specific misconception of the World and is an illusory element of the world that takes us away from the realization of the infinitude of the cosmos..

To reach out for grapes one can never grasp.. it always evades you, the money, the power, the sexual choice, the positions and fame: As Muhammad the Prophet stated: "If the son of Adam had a mountain of gold he will always want a second one.. his mouth will never be filled, except with the dust of his own grave.." this is the illusory nature of "Dunya", the Sufi seeks to "die" to it, hence the Sufi saying "Die before you die"

This is all gross simplification, Ibn Arabi and Rumi have similar teachings on this point, the divine reality, absolute and infinite at once (these two aspects, infinitude and absoluteness, are principial poles of manifestation, the absolute manifests in the world and nature in what the Sufis call "Jalal" or severity, the Infinite manifests in the world in what we call "Jamal" Jalaliyyat, and Jamaliyyat are two principles forming a dialectic and polarity.

The Chinese notions of Yin, and Yang, and the Tao best mirrors this outside of Islam. Masculinity and femininity are limited manifestations of these two principles in the animal world. Each principle in turn contains other principles which are, in a sense, archetypes, the human self manifests from specific archetypes, specific "names of Allah"..

The process of Sufism is to take us past the conditioned social aspects of our selves, our conditioned likes, dislikes, habits, customs, and persona - "the face", to "Our Lord" - our essential self.

Often in society we take the shells of other people, role models, and make ourselves like them. We experience wounds and slights and are taught specific social roles which are not bad in and of themselves, but they are highly relative.

When I was a punk I dressed like a punk, when I was a skater I dressed like a skater, when I was into Hip Hop I dressed the part. There is a specific type of materialism of specific ages and cultures. Our age has specific types that a Sufi like Shah wanted to deal with.

Shah's writings are tailored for readers with specific mindsets and mentalities - Western Anglo-phones who were culturally pre-disposed to be Islamophobic. He alludes to this sometimes explicitly and sometimes in a veiled way throughout his writings.

In every age in Sufism there is a Contextuality of messages, the messages of scholars of some ages were explicitly at times, and implicitly at other times, restricted to the mindsets of the people of the time. Their words would be meaningless to audiences of another time. The earliest Sufis were absolute ascetics, wore only coarse wool cloaks and were often celibates and vegetarian,

Sufis in another age were noted for their sensual enjoyment (Imam Junaid's famous statement about needing sex daily like he needs food, and Ibn Arabi's statements on sacred sexuality for example) and a stereotype of Sufis in many eastern culture revolves around their immense enjoyment of sweetmeats and candy ( I recall a Bangladeshi Naqshbandi Sufi who used to walk around my University campus randomly passing out candy every Friday )

Shah attempted, with some success, to present a limited conception of Sufism to specific groups of Westerners in accordance with their mindsets. Rene Guenon did the same in his way, both men tried to make specific subsets of the Sufi's teachings relevant to the immense problems of this age, this people.

On a "sexist" bias possibly found in some teachings or paths, it is useful to realize that we really aren't dealing with much different from that found in most traditional eastern practices, whether you are dealing with Hindu, Buddhist, or Islamic. Traditional and post-traditional Eastern societies, their gender roles, and social roles, are very different from our Western ones, and it may be useful to restrain our judgement and observe with an open mind to notice the nuances. I'm not saying that one way is better than the other, but empathy and an openness to observing the Other is necessary to understand certain things.

Whatever one's objections are to non-Western gender roles and teachings, it is a useful exercise to consider things from other standpoints and ask how and why do we know a specific way is true?

If you have any questions about the Sufis or Sufism feel free to message me.
 
 
*
04:25 / 26.09.07
Thanks for this, kamals. There are a few points here I find really interesting in light of some of what I've been exploring lately.

This is all gross simplification, Ibn Arabi and Rumi have similar teachings on this point, the divine reality, absolute and infinite at once (these two aspects, infinitude and absoluteness, are principial poles of manifestation, the absolute manifests in the world and nature in what the Sufis call "Jalal" or severity, the Infinite manifests in the world in what we call "Jamal" Jalaliyyat, and Jamaliyyat are two principles forming a dialectic and polarity.

Viewing what you are saying here through the lens of trying to understand something that I find puzzling about esoteric Judaism, I understand "absolute" to refer to the indivisible characteristic of the Divine while "infinite" refers to the Divine's immanence. On the one hand we have the absolute Divine which is only, wholly, entirely, and ineffably itself, and which if it were fully present would obliterate creation because there could be nothing other or outside of it. On the other, we have the infinite Divine which is everywhere and permeates all things, and outside of which there is nothing else. Am I thinking on the right track or had I better abandon this line?

Shah's writings are tailored for readers with specific mindsets and mentalities - Western Anglo-phones who were culturally pre-disposed to be Islamophobic. He alludes to this sometimes explicitly and sometimes in a veiled way throughout his writings.

In every age in Sufism there is a Contextuality of messages, the messages of scholars of some ages were explicitly at times, and implicitly at other times, restricted to the mindsets of the people of the time.


This leads me to wonder, not for the first time, what characterizes the approach of the Sufi teachers of today and how they tailor their message to reach "the people of the time"—who are also a diverse bunch, so presumably we're talking about a diversity of approaches.

On a "sexist" bias possibly found in some teachings or paths, it is useful to realize that we really aren't dealing with much different from that found in most traditional eastern practices, whether you are dealing with Hindu, Buddhist, or Islamic. Traditional and post-traditional Eastern societies, their gender roles, and social roles, are very different from our Western ones, and it may be useful to restrain our judgement and observe with an open mind to notice the nuances. I'm not saying that one way is better than the other, but empathy and an openness to observing the Other is necessary to understand certain things.

Whatever one's objections are to non-Western gender roles and teachings, it is a useful exercise to consider things from other standpoints and ask how and why do we know a specific way is true?


Yes... and I'm thinking that Sufism, being a uniquely Islamic vehicle for conveying an essential truth that predates formal Islam, is probably best understood from a position of sensitivity to cultural norms prevailing in the societies in which Sufism arose. Presumably, however, the core truth transcends cultural norms, and so should be accessible to all people, of whatever gender or sexuality or cultural background, provided they have a certain discipline in practicing whatever their tariqa is and that they can find a teacher who can frame the message in the right way. In your view, is it possible for a person who has neither the ability nor the desire to adhere to what are commonly understood today as Islamic gender roles and sexual mores* to look for this truth through Sufism, or is it necessary to use another vehicle?


*I am bearing in mind of course that Westerners tend to greatly inflate the prevalence of sexism and homophobia in Islam for reasons that suit certain Western governments, and certain groups of Muslims place more emphasis on submission of women and elimination of homosexuality than has historically been the mainstream in many other periods of Islamic history.
 
 
Char Aina
11:24 / 26.09.07
the best way to get themselves better heard

I was under the impression that there was an era of the caliphate during which any 'People of the Book' would be afforded the right to practice their religion fairly freely, and that survival of one's faith might depend on being tied in some way to the abrahamic faiths.

So maybe not just to be better heard, but also to be heard of ever again.
 
 
kamals
18:59 / 27.09.07
Re/ Tzimtzum - this is fascinating.. I am groking this now.

Re/ People of the Book. Tolerance towards the "People of the Book" was an ideal in Islamic law, not a relic of the old Caliphate that phased out.

Sifting legend from historical fact is always complicated. But the picture that sources paint is that tolerance of the "people of the book" is a general ideal in Islam, not an accident of the early period. The ideal played itself out in real human lives and tendencies, but it was always there.

For example, when the Spanish expelled the Jews the Ottoman Sultan invited them to settle in Turkey. This was almost 1000 years after the early Caliphate

There's much ado made about the historical intolerance of Islamdom but the real picture is fully of nuances. In recent centuries the ottoman turks were often more tolerant to jews than christian, though Eastern European chistians had the saying "better the turban of the turk than the tiara of the Pope."

In the lat Caliphate, but prior to the crusaides, Christians received much more tolerance than Jews in some areas, while in other areas the Jews were highly prized. In Spain Jews were highly regarded while the Christians were often seen as barbarians.

There were living realities based on Ideals that sometimes were lived up to, sometimes exceeded, sometimes fallen seriously short of.

In the first century of Islam Jews were banned from Jerusalam - the reason for this was that the Christian Romans insisted on it as a condition of Muslim occupation.

The Christian patriarch gave the 2nd Caliph, Umar, a list of conditions under which the city would be allowed to be placed under muslim rule - one condition was restrictions on Jews. The act was largely symbolic, Umar could have taken the city with a short siege but prefered peaceful capitulation under conditions drafted by the Christians themselves.

Later, note that Umar II, his descendant, threw out the rule and allowed Jewish immigration to Jerusalam for the first time since 70AD.

Here you had a case of intolerance (banning Jews) as an act of tolerance (putting up with a token Christian demand) as a symbolic act, then later a disregard of Christian wishes in favor of the Jews.

Umar could have imposed any conditions he wanted, he held the upper hand and a rather large army outside the gates - the behavior of Umar towards the Christians when taking Jerusalam, versus the behavior of the crusaiders centuries later when taking jerusalam back, should be contrasted.
Umar viewed it a religious obligation to honor his pact with the Christians. And he did.

Umar II is one of the most revered early Caliphs, one of the few that Sunnis and Shia alike actually agree was decent.

His was a reputation of sanctity and inner rigor. He was a precurser to some Sufis and publicly encouraged the people to elect someone else as Caliph if they were not satisfied with him, but the people remained overwhelmingly supportive of him. His reputation for rigorous fairness was legendary, and was noted for redistributing wealth, confiscating a number of estates seized by prior Ummayad officials for redistribution to the people.

Umar II was made aware of a city in Syria whose inhabitants were severely taxed and forced converted to Islam by a local governor. When he became aware of this he had the entire city made independent of the Caliphate, and their churches and religious offices restored.

The inhabitants were shocked by his tolerance and many later voluntarily converted to Islam and the city rejoined the Caliphate on its own terms.

The history is full of nuances, there was a basic ideal of tolerance that was sometimes lived up to, and sometimes not.
 
 
Ticker
19:21 / 27.09.07
I am really loving this thread. While I don't currently have anything useful to add to it I would just like to thank kamals and Zippid and all the other posters for the in depth and thoughtful presentation of such a complex tradition.
 
 
kamals
19:36 / 27.09.07

Tzimtzum...

this is very much the spirit of the "wahdat al-wujud" school of Sufism, mainly typified by Ibn Arabi, rumi, and others like them.

The absolute and infinite poles of manifest reality are the roots of sex/gender polarities. Much like Yin and Yang, an absolute pole that is inaccessible, represents transcendence, and is the archetypal root of severe traits, an infinite pole that represents immanence and is the archetypal root of traits typifying mercy, growth

Think of.. Shiva and Parvarti in hinduism

The idea is that Allah is the unmanifest source of reality, as Allah manifests itself along two poles, inacessibility and immanance


Viewing what you are saying here through the lens of trying to understand something that I find puzzling about esoteric Judaism, I understand "absolute" to refer to the indivisible characteristic of the Divine while "infinite" refers to the Divine's immanence. On the one hand we have the absolute Divine which is only, wholly, entirely, and ineffably itself, and which if it were fully present would obliterate creation because there could be nothing other or outside of it. On the other, we have the infinite Divine which is everywhere and permeates all things, and outside of which there is nothing else. Am I thinking on the right track or had I better abandon this line?
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:56 / 27.09.07
Is there a middle pole where the two qualities overlap, much like the tree of life, with what Israel Regardie called the middle way or path.

Or is it a case similar to yin and yang where these two qualities are apparent in all manifest and unmanifest as a kind of merciful severity or severe mercy depending on what you wish to see.

Or are these qualities in a sense unquantifiable but know in the sense with the eyes you look with or the eyes you look from.

Absolute relativity in a way? How do they interact in a sense.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:38 / 27.09.07
I guess what i am trying to say is what kind of relationship do they have and at what point do they become unified.
 
  
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