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H&SBR: Incest

 
  

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Evil Scientist
13:31 / 08.03.07
I think Mordant's point earlier on is a good reason, beyond the physical aspects , as to why incestuous relationships are considered (by societies) to be unhealthy. That it: can also remove a powerful drive to leave the family unit and explore the world outside.

In a sense some of the social aspects of society would become irrelevant. Why go looking for friends and a mate amongst strangers when both can be found within the safety and comfort of the family group?
 
 
Spaniel
14:09 / 08.03.07
As an identical twin I generally find discussions of twincest pretty icky and uncomfortable, that's partially due to personal and subjective factors (hey, and maybe hard-wired stuff like the Westermarck Effect), but there is also a social component that really sticks in my craw. Twins, as a rule, are treated like freaks or highly exotic oddities in the popular press - I can't count the number of times that I've been forced to throw my shoe at the telly when confronted by yet another bout of circus music, and talk of psychic powers - and the popular imagination doesn't seem to be much better: It is horribly tiresome, not to mention disconcerting, having to explain that there isn't in fact "two of me" and that my life isn't one merry practical joke, and that my partner hasn't ever accidentally slept with my brother, and, no, my son doesn't think he has two daddies. The notion that twins secretly lust after each other is just a particularly extreme example of that kind of thing, but unfortunately (for me) its extremity doesn't make it uncommon. People, for whatever reason, really seem to have a lot invested in the idea.

I imagine some of the thoughts in this thread could point to some of the underlying factors.

Fucking your clone
 
 
Princess
14:25 / 08.03.07
First usage of the secret-post option:

"Let's see if this secret account works. I'd like to post in the incest thread anonymously to say that I've found popular fictional depictions of brother/sister romance and sex (eg. in Brookside, Iain Banks' Walking on Glass, Gideon Stargrave in The Invisibles) quite kinkily titillating, and couplings like this have fuelled my sexual fantasies. I've also had fantasies independent of these fictions, ie. from my own head, about attractive male-female and female-female twins getting together; and if reading erotic fiction online I often look for sibling-incest stories. I think the thrill of it is mostly the taboo and the forbidenness of it. But I'm also an only child, and I think this is probably a major factor - I don't have any unsexy, unromantic reality of siblings to dampen that fantasy. "
 
 
Quantum
14:30 / 08.03.07
It's not a matter of being "taught" that it is wrong, Quants. There appears to be a powerful revulsion against fucking your immediate family hardwired into the brain.

Ah- I stand corrected.
 
 
Spaniel
14:31 / 08.03.07
(That really is quite an interesting utility Princess has set up there. Good example of working around the board's limitations)
 
 
alas
14:31 / 08.03.07
And, since it's such a powerful taboo in Western culture--and I'd also say for good reasons that, as Mordant has demonstrated, almost certainly go beyond authoritarian conditioning and don't require a knowledge of genetics, it can play a powerful part in sexual fantasy, and has long played a part in Western story telling for that reason.

There's a long, long tradition of sex between gods and early humans who are siblings--Greek and Roman traditions as well as non-Western stories. I remember asking my grandma when I was a kid "Ok, so if Adam and Eve are the only people (and lets face it, aren't they basically bro and sis or even closer?), who did their children marry?" and she explained that, just for that time, they would have had to marry each other. Freaked me out, and I don't have any brothers.

Most societies are, therefore, grounded in stories of basically incestuous relationships, and then have to engage in some kind of veiling of that as they also establish a tabu against incest.

And then there's also a long tradition of stories about "unconscious incest" between family members separated by adoptive relaitonships--e.g., the Oedipus story. He married and had sex with his mother because his adoptive status made him not recognize her as his mother. When adoption laws were first being passed in the late 19th century--and not until 1926 in England--concerns about separated children unknowingly marrying their siblings were again raised.

So, to answer miss wonderstarr's question--
I don't doubt there have always been people who thought sibling incest between attractive brothers or sisters was a big turn-on ~ I wrote some Luke and Leia slash years ago, which wasn't meant to be sexy so much as exploratory, and I almost thought I'd coined the term twincest in '02 ~ but it surprised me to see this tendency "coming out" so visibly and not being met by ick, but by other people joining in.

People explore lots of stuff in fantasy, and may especially create a little distance by imagining others--here especially fictional others, even cartoon others--doing things that are transgressive. In fact, I am sure that many of us here have had sexual fantasies that involve ourselves with a "brother" or "sister" or "parent," but probably many of us have to create a different person to occupy that fantasy role than the actual people we grew up with. (Which also makes me sympathetic to the attraction that these two felt for each other.)

Sure, read that as a confession. I admit can fantasize about engaging in "incest," but only if I re-imagine myself and my family; I myself cannot fantasize about anyone I actually grew up with--I have to imagine myself in a different family, having sex with a fictional brother or fictional sister or fictional step bro/sis. The ick is too strong as it comes closer to my real life, and I find I really don't want/need to cross that mental boundary in that way, even in my mind.

Fantasy and storytelling are quite different, for most people, than actually having sex with a real sibling of one's own in real life. I actually do think that mythological stories of incest functioned in a similar way for ancient cultures, we just always imagine that we're the "daring" generation, exploring things our ancestors, inevitably fuddy-duddies in our minds, never would have dreamed of. The transgressiveness of the behavior is a turn on because a taboo is being violated. It requires the taboo to be intact and strong.
 
 
Spaniel
14:34 / 08.03.07
Fantasy and storytelling are quite different, for most people, than actually having sex with a real sibling of one's own in real life.

I think that in the popular imagination the boundaries blur when it comes to twins
 
 
Ex
14:41 / 08.03.07
I find the Westermarck effect interesting in that it specifically isn't always a biological thing, and therefore may not hook up precisely with the fears of genetic problems which are often cited as the root of this revulsion. I'm interested in the ideas both Mordant and Evil Scientist mooted, that perhaps it is as much about a need to go out from your social group and interract with other families culturally - that it may be the link between individual family cohesion, and wider social cohesion. There's a bit in a Gayle Rubin article where she's looking at the incest taboo in some non-industrial societies, and how people explained it in fairly practically: If I marry my sister, we'd become entirely insular - who's going to come to these events which usually involve two families, who's going to have my back if these situations occur, how will I make links to a wider circle of people who will make sure my family does OK?

(Not that I think any of those things should support the legal ban - I think drawing direct links between social functions and individual behaviours can lead to some dodgy conclusions.)
 
 
alas
14:50 / 08.03.07
I think that in the popular imagination the boundaries blur when it comes to twins

Maybe...or maybe it just becomes closer to masturbation/sex with yourself? in the popular imagination. Because most of us specifically aren't twins, and don't have to imagine a "real" brother/sister, which a much greater percentage of the population does have. So I'd kind of argue the opposite, I think.
 
 
Spaniel
15:03 / 08.03.07
Sorry, lack of clarity.

I mean that people are more likely to buy the idea of consensual incest and/or incestuous desire between twins. As a twin this weirds me out significantly.
 
 
Spaniel
15:04 / 08.03.07
And by "buy" I mean they think it actually happens
 
 
Smoothly
15:11 / 08.03.07
I wonder whether incest porn (eg. the Bartok twins) feeds this idea; porn being a powerful way for these ideas to be made ‘real’, and identical twins being preferred for incest porn because it’s the only way to make it undeniably incesty.
 
 
Spaniel
15:14 / 08.03.07
I think, for whatever reason - probably to do with all the exoticisation that goes on, and possibly the self identity/masturbation angle - it feels more permissable (rather than preferred, although I appreciate that may well be a factor) when it comes to identical twins.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:16 / 08.03.07
I think there are some female triplets who pose together in soft-porn, too. There's also, on a far softer level, the female Olsen twins, who continually (used to) pose cuddling up or arm in arm, arguably going beyond "normal" sisterly affection into very mild fantasy-fulfillment. by which I mean, though they were never marketed as an erotic twin spectacle (unlike those triplets), the fact that they always appeared together rather than separately, and the touchy-feely nature of their modelling, did seem implicitly to play on the twincest idea.
 
 
Spaniel
15:19 / 08.03.07
Of course women are always presented as just one step away from getting it on in those photoshoots.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:20 / 08.03.07
Further to Boboss' point, I imagined the sexual appeal of twins was often related to the idea of a threesome with those twins ~ which maybe appeals not just because of the taboo, but because of... I don't know, fumbling for it here... some idea of consistent "quality", the guarantee that you would find both participants exactly and equally attractive, rather than there being one you fancied more than the other. Perhaps there is some kind of SF notion about sex with beautiful clones or identical robots there; or perhaps that SF notion plays off the twin fantasy, the other way around.
 
 
Princess
15:52 / 08.03.07
There are a couple of twincest scenes in gay porn. I'll see if I can dig up the references from wiki tonight.

miss wonderstar, sorry, you're right. My homonormativity is showing, apologies. Twincest can apply to differently gendered peeps shacking up as well.

But in my head, and I'd venture the heads of others, twins are always identical. I'll admit here that the idea of twincest does have some attraction for me. But if I make those twin bodies differently gendered then suddenly it becomes an ick again. So does the idea of normal incest. A large part of the twincest concept relies on those people looking exactly the same. I actually think that minor deviation on identical twins might put me off too.

I've got some idea of why this might be. Give me a chance to word it properly and I'll be back to try and wrangle it out.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:56 / 08.03.07
Do you find the idea of (unrelated) men and women getting it on "ick" as well, Princess, or indifferent, or sexy? If you don't mind me asking.
 
 
Princess
16:26 / 08.03.07
Het sex doesn't ick me. It's just a flavour I haven't tried yet. Lady-parts do, with increasing frequency, haunt my naughty hanshakes.
 
 
Spaniel
16:28 / 08.03.07
Lol
 
 
alas
16:51 / 08.03.07
So is the viewer in twincest, ie., the one possibly also fantasizing a threesome with them, generally--always? virtually always?--framed as male?
 
 
Princess
17:37 / 08.03.07
Nope, all the twincest fiction I've come across has been in the slash community. The majority of slash fiction readers are, I'm reliably informed, female.

Also, when I was up in Edinburgh for the fringe I saw fliers for the Ceasar Twins. That act gives me a definite ick. Quite probably because I've seen interviews with them and seen both mouths operate independently and so I can be pretty sure that they are actually two closely related people rather than the beautiful (obviously imaginary and sorry Bobboss) anomaly of one soul with two bodies.

Anyway, despite the fact that these guys are gymnasts, most of their schpeile relied on being slightly spooky looking twins with strong incest undertones. People where going, afaict, due to a desire to see twincest-like contortions. I don't think that it was a male only audience.

In their leafleture the boys mention that there girlfriends are also sisters and also identical twins. The not so subtle implication was, if I remember it properly, that they occasionally swapped girlfriends. This sets up a sort of threesome type thing for the girls (and the boys as well I supose) where they are making love to both boys at the same time. I don't think that "lucky pierre" in the middle is always meant to be a guy.
 
 
alas
17:40 / 08.03.07
thanks for the clarification, princess. I'm woefully ignorant about many areas of pop culture, and this is one.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
17:44 / 08.03.07
I think there's a fucking huge, and for the most part unexamined, amount of disablism in this thread. I'm not entirely sure where or how to start critiquing/attacking it, tho... suffice to say, the "inbred children will be t3h cripp15z!!! OH NOES!!!11!" arguments don't wash with me, any more than if it was "... t3h geyz!!!" or "...t3h blakcz!!!".

(The exact same arguments get used against, say, older mothers having children, because of the "risk" (which i think is a totally inappropriate word in itseld, but dunno what to replace it with) of Down's etc, and i don't think they have any validity there either...)

With regard to the idea of incest itself, i don't really have any strong emotional reaction to it when it's brother/sister, sister/sister or brother/brother... in fact, my reaction to it is pretty much "meh, whatever". Can't see what all the fuss about it is tbh, apart from, i suppose, deep-rooted religious bollocks. Mother/son or father/daughter, on the other hand, do give me a serious "ick" reaction - i think, particularly in the case of the latter, because it's so tied up with rape in my mind - i find it extremely hard to imagine that kind of relationship actually being consensual (and a very significant percentage of the women i know were raped or otherwise abused by their fathers). Mother/daughter or father/son i'm not entirely sure what i think about.

Will attempt to flesh out those very quick thoughts/comments a bit later. Don't have full-time internet access at the mo...
 
 
Quantum
18:24 / 08.03.07
Mother/daughter or father/son i'm not entirely sure what i think about.

Exactly the same surely. Father/son abuse is terrifyingly common for example, and just as damaging.
 
 
JOY NO WRY
19:48 / 08.03.07
In terms of biology it strikes me that arguments about the expected health of any progeny, whilst that may well be one of the first things that comes to mind when we think about what I suppose might be considered the 'objective' (and I'm uncomfortable using that word) value of any reproductive sexual activity, surely don't carry that much weight. As nataraja has pointed out, it isn't really an acceptable argument when other kinds of sexual interaction are discussed, and I'm not sure it is here. It appears very difficult to condemn any kind of reproduction on the basis of health without giving approval to eugenics generally.

Biology aside, a lot of you seem to be worried by the potential for abuse - but then in cases where siblings meet later in life and get together surely that isn't an issue? And in cases where it could be, then surely it can be defended against as much as it is in other situations?

I'm thinking about the laws about consent, specifically. One can sleep with a sixteen year old in England, assuming that one isn't that sixteen year old's doctor or somesuch. But I believe that anybody who has taught the teenager at any point (or maybe had legal responsibility for them at all?) isn't allowed to sleep with them until they are 18. Perhaps with older siblings/parents similar rules could be put in place to protect people without stepping on their sexual freedom too much? 25 or so, perhaps.

Personally, the idea freaks me out - but only in terms of my own family. I don't have an issue with it in others at all*. And I think that this is similar to a heterosexual person being a bit creeped out by the idea of sleeping with people of the same sex but not having any problem with people doing it in general.



* Indeed, should some pretty twins invite a man to their party he may well take them up on it.
 
 
Red Concrete
21:01 / 08.03.07
It appears very difficult to condemn any kind of reproduction on the basis of health without giving approval to eugenics generally.

Agreed. Furthermore, I think you could source at least some of the social or "learned" ick factor to inherited social traditions, and possibly religious influences (although being totally atheistic, I welcome correction..) both of which may have root in historic observation of disability in the progeny of incest... and therefore also owe something to a eugenic stance.

Evil Scientist: Well yes, but then technically allowing couples that are unable to have children to become pregnant via artificial means is also a eugenic technique

How so? My understanding of "eugenic" means the opposite.

...I do feel that they shouldn't have gone so far as having children.
This, I can agree with. But,

Okay, arguably, this is no different from two people who bear a dominant gene for an inheritable disease having children (although I personally would argue that shouldn't be exactly encouraged either)

Should it be discouraged? Because that would be eugenics. Would you argue that a person with Huntington's disease shouldn't be left to make their minds up with the full facts, and the facts alone? Does does the law (or absolutely anyone) have any business telling anyone how, or with whom, to reproduce?

Hopefully any problems would eventually be bred out

I trust my impression of you enough to believe that you say 'hopefully' from a compassionate point of view. Exact phrasing is very difficult to get right in this issue, and I sope you wouldn't for example, go as far as Watson?

Sorry to be off-topic, maybe a lab thread exists that can be bumped...
 
 
ibis the being
22:46 / 08.03.07
i believe there's often a strong sexual component to reunions between adult biological family members - I've heard it described in ways that make sense by someone who felt it (in a documentary, rather than first hand). You're suddenly trying to fit this person into your life who could be very, very important, but as an adult you don't really have any pre-existing model for doing that in a 'sibling' way (for example) so you often feel it as a sexual attraction.

Among siblings who grow up together, I think there is some sexual component to sibling relationships even when an ingrained ick/revulsion/Westermarck effect is firmly in place. One's siblings are (apart from one's parents) often the first & closest examples of opposite/same sex (picking your preference of course) that one has. I think there is a lot of opportunity for sexual imprinting with one's siblings, despite the firm conviction (learned or innate) that one's siblings are not for sex. Isn't it common for a younger sibling or (even more commonly) younger cousin to crush on and "want to marry" an older one as children? I'm an eldest child so I haven't had that experience, but I've had friends describe similar things to me, and I was the focus of a younger cousin's crush for a while. I tend to agree with the "psychoanalyst's view" described in the Westermarck article above that there would be no incest taboo if there weren't some naturally occurring sexual component to sibling relationships.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:20 / 09.03.07
Can someone put up some links for this 'Twincest' slash thing? Because there's a huge movement at the moment in the Supernatural fandom for Wincest, stories featuring the two siblings from SPN having sex, or being in love. And I know of no twin pairings in slash, apart from Heroes.

Wincest is interesting, though. It's bizarrely sexy, sometimes. But it is pornography about two fictional television characters, and I'm not sure how much the sexiness of that pairing relates to incestuousness perse, or just that the actors who play Sam and Dean in Supernatural are hott. I could be wrong, though.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:31 / 09.03.07

Niki/Jessica "Heroes" twincest

“You belong to me,” Niki said, and Jessica felt her orgasm rushing up to meet her. She reached down to touch herself and Niki slapped her hand away, overpowering her, forcing her arms behind her back. The hold forced their bodies even tighter against each other, so close their identical breasts smoshed together.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:43 / 09.03.07
How so? My understanding of "eugenic" means the opposite.

It's not eugenics in the traditional sense, however it is artificially ensuring that certain inherited characteristics are continued. Obviously this only applies to couples unable to procreate due to genetic conditions, and ensuring the continuation of the trait (weak sperm for example) isn't the actual goal. But the end result is the same as eugenic selection.

Should it be discouraged? Because that would be eugenics. Would you argue that a person with Huntington's disease shouldn't be left to make their minds up with the full facts, and the facts alone? Does does the law (or absolutely anyone) have any business telling anyone how, or with whom, to reproduce?

Well my personal opinion is that continuation of one's biological line should not necessarily be seen be as an automatic right, especially in a society where there are so many unwanted children. Just because anyone can do it, it doesn't (again IMO) mean that everyone should.

In the example above I would point out that the child is not getting a choice as to whether it gets born with Huntington's Disease or not is it? The parent is making the decision that they are prepared to risk their child having a painful and life-shortening condition simply in order that they continue their own familial line.

That seems, to me, to be an extremely selfish thing for any parent to do.

I personally feel that, in situations such as incest, where the risk of inheritable disease is such a high risk that there should be some consideration for the future offspring, who, after all, cannot have an opinion of their own until well after birth. If a child is to be brought to term and raised then should legislation not exist to protect it and ensure that it is healthy?

Red Concrete, you say that you agree that they shouldn't have had kids. Can you explain why, in your view, they're not being able to have kids it's different to someone with an inheritable disease having kids? Both know there is a good chance of the child being born with some form of ailment that is going to impact massively on their life.

I trust my impression of you enough to believe that you say 'hopefully' from a compassionate point of view. Exact phrasing is very difficult to get right in this issue, and I sope you wouldn't for example, go as far as Watson?

Sorry to be off-topic, maybe a lab thread exists that can be bumped...


I don't think this is off-topic, I think it cuts to the heart of what we're discussing here.

To be clear with my line on any inhertitable ailments "hopefully being bred out"; I meant that the offspring would hopefully breed with non-relation partners which would (after a few generations) diminish the expression of multiple negative recessive traits. However if mating with a relation is considered acceptable in society then there is no reason that the offspring cannot have the same right to breed with their closest relations as their parents did (which, obviously, compounds the problem).

I would like, at this point, to say that if my views are making anyone uncomfortable then please say and I'll piss off to the BSG thread in TV. I don't feel my views in this area are disablist, I'm not advocating forced sterilisations, I'm not suggesting that I would trust a government to decide who can and can't breed. All I am suggesting is that, in my view, people should take a hell of a lot more responsibility for their reproductive actions than, I feel, they do at the moment. However I do acknowledge that some of my views have the risk of making someone uncomfortable. In order to avoid that, and an attack of the Godwin's let me know if you want me to step back.
 
 
nixwilliams
09:01 / 09.03.07
Can someone put up some links for this 'Twincest' slash thing?

weasley twincest is a minor but significant pairing in hp fandom.
 
 
Red Concrete
09:11 / 09.03.07
Red Concrete, you say that you agree that they shouldn't have had kids. Can you explain why, in your view, they're not being able to have kids it's different to someone with an inheritable disease having kids? Both know there is a good chance of the child being born with some form of ailment that is going to impact massively on their life.

Don't have much time to post atm.. I don't think they should have kids. But I believe firmly that they should do as their conscience dictates. Similarly in any situation with known risk for genetic disease. If they want to bring a child with a very high (100% even) chance of being disabled in the world that is their prerogative. Even more so when the parents have personal experience of the disability. The moment that social values start to influence their decision, is the moment they will begin to ignore their own feelings, and common sense, and personal responsibility (which may sway them either way, mind you). I'll say no more, at the risk of invoking Godwin..

people should take a hell of a lot more responsibility for their reproductive actions than, I feel, they do at the moment

Having never been in the situation personally, I have no idea how true this is. Possibly the fact that we don't hear about brother-sister offspring every day is a sign that people probably are taking responsiblity.

Taking the Huntington's example, I can imagine it's very hard to be in a situation where you are going to die young, but not too young to have a family, and want to desperately enjoy the time you have left, and want to defy this disease which will kill you. Without being in those shoes, I can't say how much responsibility people are taking.
 
 
Quantum
13:58 / 09.03.07
(offtopic, "so close their identical breasts smoshed together" Smoshed? Is all slash written that badly?)
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:06 / 09.03.07
I know, "smoshed" was pretty bad. In my experience, slash writing ranges from ludicrously awful through mediocre-average to professional TV-tie-in-novel quality at the top end, with most of it falling in the middle. That is, even the slash that I find at all sexy in parts always manages to have jarring, awkward, boner-harshing (not literally) images or phrases scattered through it ~ like someone saying something really weird or offputting in the middle of sex.
 
  

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