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grant
20:01 / 15.03.07
Ah, I got confused with Gehenna (garbage pit outside town) and Sheol (pit, earth) up there, apparently.

I don't think either of these turn up in Genesis, by the way.
 
 
EvskiG
15:57 / 16.03.07
On to Eden!

Here's the New JPS version:

4 Such is the story of heaven and earth when they were created. When the LORD God made earth and heaven --

5 when no shrub of the field was yet on earth and no grasses of the field had yet sprouted, because the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth and there was no man to till the soil,

6 but a flow would well up from the ground and water the whole surface of the earth --

7 the LORD God formed man from the dust of the earth. He blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.

New author, new creation story, new God.

We're in one of the oldest parts of the Bible now. It uses the term "YHVH Elohim" (Lord God) instead of Elohim.

(Rashi says that "יהוה [YHVH] is His name. אלהים [Elohim] [means] that He is the Ruler and Judge over the entire world, and so is this defined everywhere according to its simple meaning: the Lord (אלהים), Who is Ruler and Judge (יהוה).")

This God is a lot more anthropomorphic. He blows into Adam's nostrils, walks in the Garden when it's cool, and doesn't always seem to know where Adam is. He seems frightened that Adam will eat of the Tree of Life and become "like one of us."

And in this creation story Man is created before plants or animals.
 
 
Princess
16:08 / 16.03.07
And, he seems a lot more unreasonable and aggresive too. I mean, from a strictly Biblical interpretation, it sort of reads like God's being a n00b doesn't it?

The snake doesn't lie to Eve, it tells her the truth. The fruit doesn't kill her, and it does make her clever. I don't get why he's punished for that.

And I don't know why the humans where punished. If they didn't have the knowledge of right and wrong then how can they truly ahve been said to "sin" at all. They where incapable of doing wrong until after they disobeyed. Yet God punishes them for it anyway.

Also, why does God automatically assume the right to command his children? I'd hope that most parents didn't make the same assumption.
 
 
grant
18:15 / 16.03.07
Well, considering He made the place, it seems pretty reasonable.

"You can make yourself at home, just don't mess with that one thing in the corner -- it's breakable, and might hurt you."

Things get a little hairier by the end of Exodus, I will say, but God in the Garden doesn't really seem that rough. Until the end of the story.
 
 
EvskiG
18:31 / 16.03.07
Well, considering He made the place, it seems pretty reasonable.

"You can make yourself at home, just don't mess with that one thing in the corner -- it's breakable, and might hurt you."


I think it's outrageously unreasonable.

It's more like: "I made both of you, and I made that thing in the corner, and I made the serpent, and I put all of you in the same place (even though there was no reason the serpent or the Tree of Knowledge had to be in the Garden with you, or that the Tree of Knowledge had to exist at all), and I gave you a warning (which was a temptation in itself), and then I got mad and punished you and banished you from the Garden when the serpent tempted you, at least partially because of my fear that you'd gain eternal life and become as a god."

It's even worse if you consider that God is supposedly omniscient, and therefore knew all of this would happen before he ever created humans.
 
 
EvskiG
18:39 / 16.03.07
"You can make yourself at home, just don't mess with that one thing in the corner -- it's breakable, and might hurt you."

Or it's more like "thanks for accepting my invite. You'll be sleeping in this room. Make sure you don't touch the ten-foot high stack of crystal goblets I put right next to your bed. It's breakable, and if it breaks, I'LL hurt you."

"Oh, and watch out for my poodle -- he's jumpy."
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:48 / 16.03.07
The snake doesn't lie to Eve, it tells her the truth. The fruit doesn't kill her, and it does make her clever. I don't get why he's punished for that.

Well, like I said in the genesis thread, the fruit does sort of kill them because God tells them "In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return". Maybe that had been part of the deal of having knowledge of good and evil all along and God was just angrily stating that fact and not actively cursing them.

Still seems a little irresponsible of him, though.
 
 
EvskiG
19:06 / 16.03.07
The snake doesn't lie to Eve, it tells her the truth. The fruit doesn't kill her, and it does make her clever. I don't get why he's punished for that.

It's a bit tricky.

God tells Adam: "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

It's not clear who relays this to Eve, or exactly what was said. (It's not in the narrative.)

Later, Eve tells the serpent "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

That's not what God said to Adam. (He never mentioned being forbidden to TOUCH it.)

So the serpent says "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

(According to the Genesis Rabbah, the serpent pushed Eve until she touched it, then said "Just as there is no death in touching, so is there no death in eating.")

Eve "took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

the fruit does sort of kill them because God tells them "In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return".

It's suggested that if they hadn't eaten the Fruit they would have had the chance to eat of the Tree of Life and lived forever. (Genesis 3:22-23.) So by eating the Fruit and getting kicked out of the Garden, they're doomed to eventually die.
 
 
grant
18:46 / 19.03.07
Here's Chapter 2 in the NAB.

Questions:

* Why is Eden "in the east"?

* I recognize two of the four rivers in vs 11-14. Are all four still around today? The notes say Eden was "near the head of the Persian Gulf" -- does that mean Kuwait?

* I like the bit in 22-24 where Eve is made:
22 The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man,
23 the man said: "This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called 'woman,' for out of 'her man' this one has been taken."
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.


According to the notes, there's a word game in 23 -- ishsha ("woman") and ishah ("her man, her husband") -- similar to the word play in 7 between adam ("man") and adama ("clay").

They also say "body" should really be translated as "flesh."

Anyway, I think these kinds of word games are important to Bible study in general -- the writers (and probably God His Own Self too) are often messing around with things like that, it seems like.
 
 
grant
18:55 / 19.03.07
Oh, and in 3:20, when Eve is actually named (after eating the apple and sewing the loincloths, and right after God's "to dirt you will return" utterance, which is interesting), the note here tell me The Hebrew name hawwa ("Eve") is related to the Hebrew word hay ("living").

I can't evaluate that on my own.


3:24 also ends the story:
When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.

And points out that this is based on the Greek text, and that the Hebrew says, When he expelled the man, he settled east of the garden of Eden, the cherubim, which I think implies that God settles east of Eden. But any way you read it, there's an unclear pronoun -- does Adam get shunted to the east of Eden, or does God and/or the cherubim (who I think is traditionally seen as Uriel, with the flaming sword, isn't it?)
 
 
EvskiG
20:14 / 19.03.07
I recognize two of the four rivers in vs 11-14. Are all four still around today? The notes say Eden was "near the head of the Persian Gulf" -- does that mean Kuwait?

According to one source:

Pishon: the Nile, the Ganges, or the Indus.

Gihon: the Nile, or Jerusalem's main water source.

[The Pishon and the Gihon may be the two tributaries of the Nile.]

Hiddekel: the Tigris

Perat: the Euphrates

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body. . . . They also say "body" should really be translated as "flesh."

As Rashi notes, husband and wife become "one flesh" when they have a child, whose body (or flesh) literally includes contributions from both parents.

in 3:20, when Eve is actually named (after eating the apple and sewing the loincloths, and right after God's "to dirt you will return" utterance, which is interesting), the note here tell me The Hebrew name hawwa ("Eve") is related to the Hebrew word hay ("living").

I'd translate "hawwa" (חוה) and "hay" (חי) as Chava (Eve in Hebrew) and chai ("living," and also a heavy duty good luck symbol). (That's "ch" as in loch, not "ch" as in cheese.)

Never thought of them as related before.
 
 
grant
00:08 / 20.03.07
If they are, that's a very interesting correspondence -- living (and luck)+clay = the origin of humankind.
 
 
EvskiG
00:19 / 20.03.07
Anyway, I think these kinds of word games are important to Bible study in general -- the writers (and probably God His Own Self too) are often messing around with things like that, it seems like.

There seems to be a ton of Hebrew wordplay in Genesis, including Adam and earth, Eve and living, woman and man, and craftier (referring to the serpent) and naked.

Too bad it doesn't translate.

By the way, some Jewish mystics believe Adam (אדם) is an acronym for afer, dam, and marah (dust, blood, and gall).
 
 
grant
02:02 / 20.03.07
Ha! I was just reading how some psalms were acrostics. Can't translate so well, yeah.
 
 
Princess
11:16 / 20.03.07
The one thing I'm still stuck on is the punishment. Before Eve ate the fruit she didn't know right from wrong, she didn't become culpable until after the act. The eating of the fruit happened whilst she really wasn't capable of understanding the choice anyway.

I don't understand why she was punished. It's like punishing the blind for walking into things they can't see.
 
 
grant
14:02 / 20.03.07
That is interesting -- Eve messed up, except she didn't know the rules, as far as we're told. So it's really Adam's fault. He's the one who was told.

The dumb cluck.
 
 
EvskiG
15:28 / 20.03.07
A lot of different things we could address now, if people are interested:

* A line-by-line parsing of the remainder of Genesis 2-3

* Whether the serpent should or shouldn't be considered Satan, and why (if at all) it matters

* Why many Christians interpret this story as the Fall of Man and the origin of Original Sin (and why Jews don't)

* Mystical interpretations of the story

* The moral lessons (if any) of the story, and whether we agree with that morality

Thoughts?
 
 
Princess
16:21 / 20.03.07
I'm sorry, I don't think I'm being clear, grant. What I mean is, even if it had been Adam who took the fruit, he can't really be held responsible. Knowledge of good and evil doesn't come until after eating, ergo they wouldn't have known it was wrong to disobey God until they already had.
 
 
Princess
16:22 / 20.03.07
Ev G, I'd be interested in the "fall of Man" aspect as it's the bit which really fries my noggin in relation to Christianity. Any info on a "Fall-less" interpretation would be great.
 
 
EvskiG
17:44 / 20.03.07
Okay, interesting stuff here.

In Judaism, there's no original sin.

As per the text, Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and got punished by God as a result. Women will feel pain in childbirth, and will feel sexual desire for their husbands but will be "ruled" by them. (Gen. 3:16) Men will have to toil for sustenance and will eventually die. (Gen. 3:17-19.) They also get the enmity of the serpent, and get booted from the Garden for fear that they'd eat of the Tree of Life and live forever.

So humans gain some knowledge, lose their innocence, and have to toil and make their way in the wider world. (Sounds like what happens to every person as he or she grows up and becomes an adult.)

But that's pretty much it.

As for Christianity . . .

Not all denominations agree, but many believe in Original Sin, which, as I understand it, means that every person is born into this world with the stain of Adam and Eve's sin, and will be eternally damned to Hell if he or she (1) is not baptized (at birth or later) and/or (2) does not personally and voluntarily accept the divinity of Jesus, who purportedly was sent to earth to redeem people from original sin (and all other sin).

Here's the Catholic Church on the subject. They've had a long time to think about the matter, and actually have a pretty sophisticated perspective (even if, personally, I think the whole thing is nonsense).

"Original sin is the privation of sanctifying grace in consequence of the sin of Adam."

"The absence of sanctifying grace in the new-born child is also an effect of the first sin, for Adam, having received holiness and justice from God, lost it not only for himself but also for us."

"It is unjust, says another objection, that from the sin of one man should result the decadence of the whole human race. . . . But . . . man has not lost his natural faculties: by the sin of Adam he has been deprived only of the Divine gifts to which his nature had no strict right, the complete mastery of his passions, exemption from death, sanctifying grace, the vision of God in the next life. The Creator, whose gifts were not due to the human race, had the right to bestow them on such conditions as He wished and to make their conservation depend on the fidelity of the head of the family. A prince can confer a hereditary dignity on condition that the recipient remains loyal, and that, in case of his rebelling, this dignity shall be taken from him and, in consequence, from his descendants."

Some denominations are much more hardcore on the subject than others, especially about the whole damnation thing.

We could write a book on the subject. Lots of people have.
 
 
grant
19:02 / 20.03.07
The simple form of Original Sin (the one taught me in CCD) is that God was something one could experience personally in Eden, but wasn't quite so accessible after the apple was eaten -- sin is a state of separation from God, and the Original Sin was the first step away.

The presence of God is one of the big puzzles of the Old Testament for me, actually.
 
 
EvskiG
19:28 / 20.03.07
Sounds like you had a liberal Catholic education.

Here's the Baltimore Catechism (learn 1960s U.S. Catholic dogma in 1400 easy lessons!) on Original Sin:

Q. 265. What is the sin called which we inherit from our first parents?

A. The sin which we inherit from our first parents is called original sin.

Q. 266. Why is this sin called original?

A. This sin is called original because it comes down to us from our first parents, and we are brought into the world with its guilt on our soul.

Q. 267. Does this corruption of our nature remain in us after original sin is forgiven?

A. This corruption of our nature and other punishments remain in us after original sin is forgiven.

Q. 274. How is sin divided?

A. (1) Sin is divided into the sin we inherit called original sin, and the sin we commit ourselves, called actual sin. (2) Actual sin is sub-divided into greater sins, called mortal, and lesser sins, called venial. . . .
 
 
EvskiG
19:40 / 20.03.07
Oh -- and here's the modern Catechism on the subject:

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned." The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul". Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man". By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Lots more at the link . . .
 
 
grant
20:01 / 20.03.07
Eh, it's not particularly "liberal" as Catholicism goes, I don't think. I think it was St. Augustine who defined "sin" as distance from/absence of God.

I do remember Original Sin being explained as a recognition that -- hey, look around, things are kind of messed up, people don't get along, we have these problems with evil, how'd that happen -- and an attempt to rationalize this state of affairs. This explanation was probably from one of the priests in my high school....

If we get up to the Babel story, it'll be interesting to see any parallels. Something similar is going on there, I think, but not as similar as I'd expected.
 
 
jentacular dreams
15:21 / 22.03.07
Ev_G - sorry, it's a typo. It was supposed to be "the jews". Thanks for the link, though my original question/theory is was the entire concept of an afterlife foreign to judaism until midway in its history, given the lack of references (until the psalms) and that humankind had already been denied the option of eternal life when we were turfed out of eden on our ear?

Swashbuckling/Ev_G - re the it's his place. Most Christians side with Grant on this one, though it basically comes down to the debate about can god ever sin (or do wrong), or is sin/wrongness defined as whatever God isn't about*. I once had a chat with a lapsed catholic friend who interpreted the cause of being thrown out of eden not the eating of the fruit itself, but the effect it had on mankind. She thought it was more about the post-fruit nookie** than anything else. And that eden was only paradise as long as the human population was kept in check.

* Omniscience is a problem here, one which my christian friends have solved by shrugging their shoulders and making references to the sovereignty of god. Though I would normally have agreed with them that you can't apply human concepts of good and evil to an omni-deity, the tree of knowledge seems to undermine that, at least partially (the matter of perspective is I suppose still relevant).

** which is a little more understandable. If I invited a couple of friends over for a garden party and after going to get some refreshments found they were doing the dirty in the flowerbed I might chuck them out too.
 
 
EvskiG
16:25 / 22.03.07
it basically comes down to the debate about can god ever sin (or do wrong), or is sin/wrongness defined as whatever God isn't about*.

This always strikes me as just another way of debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. (In other words, pretending to discuss the merits of a purely religious matter despite the lack of any factual information or real-world evidence.)

Can God sin? How can anyone know, or even pretend to know (other than by reference to religious writings with no particular basis for their authority)? Is the question actually meaningful, or is it just another version of "colorless green ideas sleep furiously" -- a sentence that has meaningful grammar but no external referents?

Is sin/wrongness defined as whatever God isn't about? I suppose you or anyone else can define it that way, but is it actually meaningful to do so?

Omniscience is a problem here, one which my christian friends have solved by shrugging their shoulders and making references to the sovereignty of god.

When reviewing religious literature, I always keep an eye out for the word "Mystery." (For example, how the Trinity is one God and three beings at the same time is a Mystery. Or, as noted above, the transmission of Original Sin is a Mystery.) It almost always means: here's a tenet that makes no logical sense, but we believe it anyway. Might as well shrug your shoulders.

Though I would normally have agreed with them that you can't apply human concepts of good and evil to an omni-deity, the tree of knowledge seems to undermine that, at least partially (the matter of perspective is I suppose still relevant).

God does say that after eating the fruit of the Tree Adam and Eve will be "like God" (Gen 3:5) or "like one of us." (Gen 3:22).

I once had a chat with a lapsed catholic friend who interpreted the cause of being thrown out of eden not the eating of the fruit itself, but the effect it had on mankind. She thought it was more about the post-fruit nookie than anything else.

Strange how some people (going back to Augustine) seem to conflate Original Sin with sex, despite the fact that it certainly isn't in the text. (Genesis 1:28 even says "be fruitful and multiply," which suggests that God approved of nookie.)

If I invited a couple of friends over for a garden party and after going to get some refreshments found they were doing the dirty in the flowerbed I might chuck them out too.

Would you feel differently if instead of friends they were your son and (to avoid any incest issues) daughter-in-law? Would you throw them and their children out forever?
 
 
grant
16:43 / 22.03.07
an afterlife foreign to judaism until midway in its history, given the lack of references (until the psalms)

Important to note: although they start with the beginning of everything, the books of the Bible are not presented in chronological order. Not within the texts or, more importantly, by the dates in which the texts were written.

As far as who-wrote-what-when, I think Ev G pointed out that Psalm 104 probably predates Genesis (although, again, not all the psalms are that old). I think most scholars agree that Job is the oldest book, anywhere from 200 to 800 years older than Genesis.

More on that here, although that article is specific to the Torah (the first five books) which do tell a story in chronological order, more or less (Deuteronomy and Numbers sort of cover the same ground, and Leviticus & Deut. explain in greater detail the laws Moses received in Exodus before reaching the Holy Land at the end of the book). Actually I guess they don't tell a story chronologically at all. Never mind.

The rest of the Tanakh sort of cycles through bits of history from different perspectives: Kings and Chronicles are both histories of the period when Israel and Judah were split into two different countries, and the books of the prophets that end the Tanakh start out with people who were propheting around the time of Kings Saul and David, the first kings of Kings. So there are big loops in time when reading the thing straight through.
 
 
grant
16:46 / 22.03.07
Strange how some people (going back to Augustine) seem to conflate Original Sin with sex, despite the fact that it certainly isn't in the text.

In fact, the text seems to have the problem with shame, which flies in the face of the sex-is-wrong view.
 
 
EvskiG
15:59 / 23.03.07
I don't think the text actually has a problem with shame -- I think it has a problem with disobedience. (Specifically, Adam and Eve's disobedience of God's "don't eat" rule.)

Adam and Eve feel shame at their nakedness after eating of the fruit, but while this tips God off that they ate it, and proves their knowledge of "good and evil," I don't think he expresses any particular displeasure at their shame itself.

(He even personally makes them clothes!)

Interesting question whether what Adam and Eve felt -- which clearly was the result of knowing Good and Evil -- was "shame" or merely "embarrassment."
 
 
SMS
17:50 / 23.03.07
John Paul II's interpretation is that the shame is indicative of a problem (namely Adam and Eve’s simultaneous lack of trust in each other and their lack of trust in God), but the shame is also an attempt to restore the possibility of communion by recognizing the importance of what would be shared in a full and mutual communion.
 
 
EvskiG
18:49 / 23.03.07
Here's the Oxford Bible Commentary's gloss on the story:

"It teaches that God's intention for human beings is wholly good, but that they can be led astray by subtle temptations; and that, while disobedience to God, which is self-assertion, may bring greater self-knowledge, it leads to disaster: the intimate relationship with God is broken. Life then becomes harsh and unpleasant; however, God does not entirely abandon his creatures but makes special provisions for their preservation."

A deity who highly values obedience, prohibits people from obtaining self-knowledge, and then punishes them when they do so is not my personal cup of tea.
 
 
jentacular dreams
19:09 / 24.03.07
always keep an eye out for the word "Mystery." (For example, how the Trinity is one God and three beings at the same time is a Mystery. Or, as noted above, the transmission of Original Sin is a Mystery.) It almost always means: here's a tenet that makes no logical sense, but we believe it anyway. Might as well shrug your shoulders.

I don't want to turn this into a debate, but surely without the concept of mystery, the notion of any deity pretty much crumbles. All God/desses are responsible for miracles (acts achieved through a mysterious manner) on some scale. If you take that away, what's left? And for a non-religious parallel - how about the 'mystery' that lies in reconciling special relativity and quantum mechanics? I'd also point out that the trinity is far from being the only deity to suffer from having a blurred single/multiple identity. Several schools of Hinduism believe that the polytheist pantheon obvious on the surface are simply manefestations of the ultimate God, who may or may not be personal (depending on who you talk to to).

Interestingly even the more recent looser translations include the "like one of us" line. But the amplified bible includes a parentheses indicating that this is the trinity). It also says that the plants were watered by fog or mist rather than undeerground streams. This is mirrored by Youngs' Literal Translation and the Bereishit Ev_G linked to.

Regarding the Eden-East thing. Ch2v7 says God planted a garden in Eden, in the East, whilst the different translations I've come across seem to indicate that mankind was thrown out of the Eastern gate. Interestingly, wikipedia's article on Uriel says that with regard to the occult he's associated with the North rather than the East.

The knowledge of good and evil = sex belief may well predate Augustine. In the Apocaylpse of Moses (a 1st century AD working of the apocryphal hebrew writing The Life of Adam and Eve ) the tree is identified as a fig tree. Figs have numerous other references through the bible, many negative (the cursing by Jesus being the most memorable). Mind you I might be retrofitting the modern symbolism of the fig onto the story.
 
 
SMS
20:25 / 24.03.07
Another point on mystery: it is important to pay attention to what is being claimed as the mystery. It tends not to be a mystery "[i]that[/i] …" but a mystery "[i]how[/i] …" and any good theological interpretation will include, at least, an argument in defense of the internal consistency and the possibility [i]that[/i] … as well as any appeal to revelation. In other words, if it can be proven that God’s being One in the category of substance and Three in the category of relation is an actual contradiction, then the Trinity wouldn’t rightly be called a mystery at all but a falsehood.
 
 
EvskiG
00:59 / 25.03.07
surely without the concept of mystery, the notion of any deity pretty much crumbles. All God/desses are responsible for miracles (acts achieved through a mysterious manner) on some scale. If you take that away, what's left?

"Mystery" is a term of art in Christian theology. It's somewhat different from the concept of a miracle.

Here's the Catholic Encyclopedia on the issue:

"In conformity with the usage of the inspired writers of the New Testament, theologians give the name mystery to revealed truths that surpass the powers of natural reason. Mystery, therefore, in its strict theological sense is not synonymous with the incomprehensible, since all that we know is incomprehensible, i.e., not adequately comprehensible as to its inner being; nor with the unknowable, since many things merely natural are accidentally unknowable, on account of their inaccessibility, e.g., things that are future, remote, or hidden. In its strict sense a mystery is a supernatural truth, one that of its very nature lies above the finite intelligence."

In other words, a mystery is something that is simply deemed true -- a theological fact -- by a given religious system, although it cannot under any circumstances be proven as true by either logic or evidence.

And for a non-religious parallel - how about the 'mystery' that lies in reconciling special relativity and quantum mechanics?

Not the same thing. The fact that modern science hasn't yet reconciled special relativity and quantum mechanics doesn't mean it can't be done, or that it's inherently unknowable.

I'd also point out that the trinity is far from being the only deity to suffer from having a blurred single/multiple identity. Several schools of Hinduism believe that the polytheist pantheon obvious on the surface are simply manefestations of the ultimate God, who may or may not be personal (depending on who you talk to to).

True, both Christianity and Hinduism have systems in which deity can in some sense be understood as both single and multiple. But I don't believe Hinduism considers this relationship to be by definition incapable of being understood.

Here's the Catholic Encyclopedia again:

"The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. . . . It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation. . . . Indeed, of all revealed truths this is the most impenetrable to reason."

Interestingly even the more recent looser translations include the "like one of us" line. But the amplified bible includes a parentheses indicating that this is the trinity).

A common interpretation, but I can guarantee you it's not in any Jewish translations.

The knowledge of good and evil = sex belief may well predate Augustine. In the Apocaylpse of Moses (a 1st century AD working of the apocryphal hebrew writing The Life of Adam and Eve ) the tree is identified as a fig tree. Figs have numerous other references through the bible, many negative (the cursing by Jesus being the most memorable). Mind you I might be retrofitting the modern symbolism of the fig onto the story.

It's generally understood in Jewish theology that the Tree of Knowledge was a fig tree. Here's Rashi:

"That is the tree of which they had eaten [the fig tree]. With that which they had sinned, they were rectified, but the other trees prevented them from taking their leaves. . . . Now why was the tree not identified? Because the Holy One, blessed be He, does not wish to grieve any creature, so that [others] should not put it to shame and say, 'This is [the tree] because of which the world suffered.'"

In other words, the fig tree wasn't actually named in the Bible so it wouldn't be embarrassed. I love that.

But I don't see the fig=sex connection.

(Other than the use of fig leaves to hide Adam and Eve's nudity in Genesis 3:7.)
 
 
SMS
01:52 / 25.03.07
I know make for the beeline mentioned these passages, but I think it's worth reading them in the context of the unnamed fig tree in Genesis.

Luke 13:6-9
"A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?'

"'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'"


Matthew 21:18-22
Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.

When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."


The Matthew text seems more plausibly to be a reference to the fall in the Garden. That would explain why we want the damned tree to wither and die.
 
  

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