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Underground > Comic Books >

Wonder Woman: A Discussion

  
  

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panthergod
21:09 / 28.02.07
I think it's a crime what's happened to Wonder Woman.

She's the character with the most wasted potential in the entire DCU, IMO.

Here's the first major female superheroine, a socio-political/spiritual-mystical proto feminst crusader with a strong undercurrent of psycho-sexual BDSM fantasy due to her creators's hangups.

How the heck could DC go wrong with this for so long when they have the type of material they have over at Vertigo? And Why didn't Grant ever do anything substantial with her? Rucka was doing really good, but at the same time, His charcters tend to have everything go wrong on every level. he tends to want to completely destroy them so that they can emergy at the end 'stronger'.

That's a problem with Diana to an extent IMO as she's intended to be an inherently optimistic figure. She's the champion for women's right sand equality, really. so she can't exactly ever truly FAIL in her mission, as she has in the mainstream DCU due to the events of OMAC/Infinite Crisis.

My Diana would be a Greco/Roman Shaolin Monk, as it where. a Teacher/Philosopher/Mystic/Warrior superheroine. She's also an social and poltical activist here to make the world a better place for the weak and oppressed. Phil Jimenez during his WW and Joe Kelly in his JLA run both briefly showed that there where Themysciran-run centers around the world to help deal with issues of povery,disease abuse and rape of women, etc. I'd get into that a bit more. Her staus as Spirit of Truth could be played with as well, She speaks truth to Power, and I'd like to explore the rarely seen and define abilties of the Lasso of Truth to boot. She'd be one of the toughest heroes in the DCU, with top of the line strength, speed, and combat skill. Think of the movies Troy+Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon


I'd bring back Steve Trevor as a Love interest, sure. I like how Adam Hughes described him in his interview on the up coming All Star Wonder woman: Hal Jordan, 'only better'. I'd have him and Hal be old Air Force buddies and rivals.

I'd expand the concept of her Mission on Man's World. Man's World isn't just 'the rest of Earth'. Man's World is WHEREVER gender discrimination and male patriarchy exist, which judging by DC's history, seems to be the whole blamed universe. They have some hard work ahead of them.

The Amazon Nation could have sub-ambassadors and embassies across the GALAXY. I'd like to see Artemis, the Bana-Migdalian(The Amazons who didn't get to live on Paradise island for 5,000 years, and survived in Africa and the middle east) who once stood in for Wonder Woman, I'd have her be the point for a sort of, well, inter-stellar movement. That could be a long running sub plot and evolve into a miniseries/ongoing title of it's own, really. I'd like to see the politics of the DCU and how all the reowned dictators and empires like it when a gand of rowdy *women* brew discontent and anarchy among the masses, and how'd they react. The Guardians of the Universe, for example, are the (mainly male) self imposed guardians of Order who allow despots and empires to brutally oppress thier populaces in teh name of greater stabililty in the cosmos. How'd they react to see a renegade movement foment instabililty and chaos, offsetting the relative order they worked for so long to maintain with thier Green Lantern Corps?--guest appearances by the resident chauvanist Guy Gardner and fearless ladies man Hal Jordan brewing, of course.

Darkseid, the New God of Totalitarianism, deserves a mention as he has history with the Amazons, having slaughtered a number of them during Byrne's run. He represents everything Wonder Woman was created to fight against, to a large extent. Interesting contrasts between the modern context of the New God and the Classical Gods, who they inter act and relate to one another, and there could also be a continuation of the scene where diana implants a piece of her soul with Darkseid(as portrayed in the Our Worlds at war crossover, where the Amazons had to reinvigorate Darksied's power by worshipping him). Tons of potential there.

The Omega Men are self style freedom fighters/'terrorists' who spent years commiting themselves to fighting the totalitatrian Citadel. Potential allies for fellow anti-status quo Amazons. they also worshipped a Goddess figure in X'Hal, and her son Auron was a member of the group.

Then, of course, there's the Mythological Angle. The Olympians. We could see how the Gods interact with both each other and the resulting effects on human kind, we could also see how the Olympians interact with other pantheons acorss the Earth and even the Universe, which I believe Eric Luke touched upon in his run but it was sort of too much like Marvel's system of 'magical aliens' to be. I'd like to see a bit mroe of the complexity and multiplicity among godly manifestations and aspects. Other mythological and mystical charcters, such as Captain Marvel Dr. Fate can be.

With dynamics of sexual/gender politics, counter cultural movements, terrorism, revoultion, alternative spirituality/polytheism and much more--Why the hell isn't Wonder woman one of the best written characters in comics?



Thinking about her potential gets me psyched. Anthing you guys have?
 
 
Mario
22:33 / 28.02.07
Here's the first thing I'd do...

Lose the Ambassador of Peace angle... it simply can't work as a mission in an open-ended universe. And every time she fails, the idea looks sillier.

However, the ambassador idea does have merit. We're talking about an advanced culture based on ancient principles of freedom and independence. One that, due to it's isolation, has flourished without the disruptions of history.

Look at Leonidas in 300 (dialed down a notch or two). We are talking about a man who led a dramatically outnumbered force into battle, all for this principle:

”A NEW age is begun. An age of GREAT DEEDS, an age of REASON. An age of JUSTICE. An age of LAW.”

That's the new mission. Aided by Themysciran science, and her god-granted powers, Diana will show the world that there's a better way, a nobler way. Even if she has to crack some heads together to do it.

More details to follow.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:29 / 28.02.07
I don't know what you'd do with her, to he honest; on the one hand Wonder Woman's a character everyone remembers, but only because of the (frankly ridiculous) costume - that'd be the first thing to go, but then what what you be left with?

Steve Trevor, the invisible plane and the ancient Greek mythology would be about it, but as with the mighty Thor, this sort of character doesn't seem to work out too well at the moment.

So, I'd have a drugged and hypnotised Diana, who'd begin much as usual, getting married to someone inappropriate early in the series, the god of death, or war, say, as reimagined as a version of Donald Trump, and then gradually having to fight her way out from under the guy's spell. She'd still have her adventures as Wonder Woman, but they'd be short, and she wouldn't be able to remember them the next day. After about a year or so, she'd finally begin to reclaim her heritage, as in 'Miracleman' if that had been played out slowly.

Ideally, when Diana was back, properly, as a fully reintegrated Wonder Woman, in a more sensible costume, even the most depraved members of Byrnerobotics would be cheering along.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:30 / 28.02.07
this thread reminds me of the ALL-STAR make-over threads a few pages down. . . .


. . . just saying.
 
 
Quantum
23:54 / 28.02.07
How would you portray Diana of Themyscira?

In a golden apron and oven gloves with a glass of gin, like Alex's Grandma with magic powers.
 
 
Billuccho!
01:56 / 01.03.07
I'm really interested in seeing everyone's takes on this, as I think Wonder Woman is the hardest superhero character to write. The most interesting era of WW is probably the one where she was powerless and dressed like Emma Peel, and that was eventually killed because it was so un-WW. Naturally, you've got the mythological elements to work with, but that's more suited for Thor.

I would, as always, being back some of the sillier aspects of her past, take them apart, and put them back together again, keeping the good stuff and excising the bad. I love the Invisible Jet, and Egg Fu, and Dr. Domino. I'd bring back Steve Trevor and I-Ching and Nubia (ugh, that name needs changing). I'd play with the super-feminism elements and maybe give an askew glance to the weird s&m/bondage Golden Age Marston era.

It took years of off and on thought, but I came up with a vague plot idea for Wonder Woman a couple weeks back. Playing off the themes of "bondage" and "dominion" and looking at the myth of Persephone, I'd have Diana sacrifice her freedom to save the world or perhaps a loved one, and become the wife of Hades (or maybe one of his wives-- perhaps he has multiple). So, for a short while, she'll be Queen of Hell, and have to use her gifts of peace and empathy to bring light to the underworld of ruin. It's a key part of the monomyth, and Diana's been there before, but this time she's got to fight it from the inside.

It's a plot that would only last a year or so max, but I think it'd be an interesting take. The WW mythos is so bogged down by Donna Troy and Hippolyta as the Golden Age WW and all sorts of huge gaps in the continuity that one really has to just toss them all out and streamline everything. Nubia, Diana's sister, leader of the island of cast-off Amazons, the "black Wonder Woman" if one really wants to get down to it, would be an interesting ally/enemy of sorts, with varying allegiances and a claim for the title of 'Wonder Woman.'

And I'd try to use the more obscure Greek deities, for variety and flavor's sake. Aphaea, the invisible goddess, could perhaps be the crafter of the Invisible Jet. And I'd have to use Agdistis, the strangest of all gods: havoc-wreaking hermaphrodite daemon.

But a boiled-down premise/subgenre/solid take on the WW mythos? It's a hard thing to come up with. For a fun story, sure, let's go with Wonder Woman: Queen of Hades. I just need to figure out how to fit Dr. Domino in...
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
11:00 / 01.03.07
Are we talking about how to reposition Wonder Woman within the DCU, or a sort of "Ultimate Wonder Woman" type thing? Cos, since reading a few threads like this one at CBR, i was thinking about how to do an Ultimate-style version of WW, and reinterpret her in such a way that she isn't just a character for straight-male-fanboy titillation...

Firstly, i think i'd kind of divorce the character/concept a bit from the Classical Greek mythology setting. Make the Themyscirans a group of humans on an island somewhere who were, in the past, "manipulated" by some "gods" or powerful alien beings, some of whom had names vaguely similar to those of various mythological gods, who, for reasons unknown (but perhaps part of the plot) made them extremely long-lived (rather than immortal per se), able to reproduce without the input of males, and otherwise superhuman in stuff like strength, healing, endurance, etc. Rather than the whole "baby made out of clay" thing, make Diana (would she still be called Diana? not sure) an "ordinary" young Themysciran who was given additional powers and/or power-giving artefacts in preparation for her role as emissary to "Man's World".

I'd make her... "non-European" looking, but in such a way that she doesn't look like any easily-stereotyped ethnicity either (after all, the Themyscirans are a hitherto-unknown human ethnic group, "modified" at some past stage of human evolution). Also make her normally-proportioned for a woman, ie 5'5" or so, a comfortable size 14-16, etc. (In fact, i see her looking a lot like Jenny Everywhere). Get rid of the star spangled bikini crap, her "costume" would be whatever Themyscirans consider casual wear.

The big thing about her would be the culture-shock angle of her moving from a one-gendered (hence, effectively genderless), egalitarian and essentially pretty utopian (if overly insular, stuck-in-its-ways and isolationist... think LOTR Elves a bit) society, to a two-gendered, fucked-up, patriarchal one. Give her an outsider's-eye-view of just how irrational and unjust our gender roles and other social norms really are (drawing a bit on Le Guin perhaps). Themyscira would have not encountered males in many centuries, and only in the form of accidental contacts (castaways, perhaps) or invaders who bit off more than they could chew. A Themysciran of D's generation would never have seen one, and they would effectively be tall tales or legends (on the other side of the world, there are monster people with huge hands and feet, hairy faces and no breasts...). She would be as freaked out by encountering them as we would be by encountering, say, HG Wells's Martians or something, and certainly wouldn't find them attractive (she would probably never have heard of such a thing as a penis). Gendered pronouns, clothing, etc would all be a serious "WTF" to her. Politically, she'd probably find herself close to radical feminism, of the Dworkin/MacKinnon variety (there could be stuff in there about conflicts between different models of feminism)...

Of course, she'd have to have some flaws, and not just be the perfect fully-realised Utopian Woman, as if she was she'd probably be pretty boring to write. Her freaked-out-ness with regard to men and tendency to "Other" them as alien monsters could become one of them, perhaps a certain level of social conservatism due to the insularity of her home society another. Possibly she'd look down on "ordinary" humans due to their comparative physical weakness and short lifespan.

There would still be scope, IMO, to rework aspects of the DC mythology. Steve Trevor could be a fanboy-type who falls in love with her, tries, albeit unsuccessfully, to get her not to be repulsed by him, but perhaps eventually wins her grudging friendship. (Or not, in which case he could become a villain.) The bracelets and lassoo could become Themysciran tech retooled to remove their gender-stereotype associations (maybe the lassoo could make non-Themyscirans see the world from a Themysciran perspective?). There could be a conspiracy-style plot linking the origins of the Themyscirans (and the mysterious god-like beings who "created" them) to the origins of other metahumans (i'm maybe thinking of something a bit Earth X-ish here).

Thoughts? Too radical, or too cliched a reinvention? Could it fit in with reinventions of other DC heroes (I don't think for a second it could fit into the presently existing DC Universe, hence it being an "Ultimate" idea)? Or have i missed the point entirely?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:41 / 07.03.07
All the gods, nobility, royal heritage and ambassadorship stuff leaves me cold in superhero comics. I can't help thinking that would just weigh her down with the kind of gravity that seems to keep anchoring Aquaman.

This is a pretty much thrown-in idea, but the only Wonder Woman I've ever truly enjoyed was the 1970s TV show. I wonder (hm) if you couldn't try to make a good fist of that somehow ~ a groovy, slightly retro action-thriller comic, reminiscent of the Lynda Carter model but by no means tied down to it ~ that is, it would be set broadly in the present but with a nostalgio-70s tone and air. It would be to the 1970s show what All-Star Superman is to the Silver Age: indebted to, but not imprisoned by it.

Here's the basic pitch: rather than Austin Powers Wonder Woman, it's Kill Bill Wonder Woman.
 
 
black mask
20:56 / 07.03.07
Make her fond of sex and indifferent to conventional sexual mores. Or a zombie. Or both.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:16 / 07.03.07
I appreciate you're being light-hearted, BM, but I think the careless use of "slut" like that is... problematic.
 
 
black mask
21:24 / 07.03.07
Sorry, you're right. I forgot myself. I've asked for it to be modded.

You know what I mean, though? She's been a paragon of virtue for a long, long time. Let her have some fun. You could string out some funny and interesting observations about prevailing sexual attitudes among the superhero community if WW was putting it about a bit. Have the male JLA members (ahem) comparing notes and then all whistling and looking out the window when the ladies arrive...

You know..?


Maybe skip the zombie thing? Maybe not. I'm just typing aloud here...
 
 
Aertho
23:27 / 07.03.07
WW = She-"Tom Strong"

yes to a new costume, yes to a big cast, yes to Diana Prince Agent of SHEILD, no to angsty "adult" themes, no to soapy drama, no to dead mom.

I think WW should be aimed at mathlete females aged 10.

Needs new villain though.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:28 / 08.03.07
All the gods, nobility, royal heritage and ambassadorship stuff leaves me cold in superhero comics.

Better make yours Marvel, miss w.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:48 / 08.03.07
There's none of that shit in Batman.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:52 / 08.03.07
There's a bourgeois technocrat capitalist hero whose very existence is enabled by old money and class privilege, but there aren't any ambassadors or gods or princes, I don't think.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:19 / 08.03.07
Well, this is one of many reasons why Batman is so interesting, innit? He's a DC icon, but he doesn't really fit in with the rest of them, which might be why he's often portrayed as barely tolerating some of them. Hnh.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:28 / 08.03.07
I've been meaning to start a thread about the difference between the two universes for a while, but it's interesting to think about how when gods and royalty show up in the Marvel universe, they're usually dicks. Or at least big dumb horndogs (Hercules), or kill-crazy psychos (Ares), or scary weirdoes who don't talk (Black Bolt). Thor is the exception, but I hardly feel like the Marvel universe misses him at the moment. The best example of this is of course Namor, who would clearly love to live in the DC Universe where he would be given the reverence he feels he deserves, the ocean is two-thirds of the planet's surface blah blah blah excuse me while I crack on to Wonder Woman. But instead he has to put up with all these impudent surface-dwellers - P.S. Richards, I totally had your wife.

I think Geofferson Johns realises this, which is why Black Adam has basically turned into Namor recently.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:44 / 08.03.07
The best example of this is of course Namor, who would clearly love to live in the DC Universe where he would be given the reverence he feels he deserves, the ocean is two-thirds of the planet's surface blah blah blah excuse me while I crack on to Wonder Woman

Has he ever met Aquaman? That would surely be so best, in a clash of boring bigheaded princes who want to reel off stats about the ocean sort of way.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:56 / 08.03.07
I was kinda riffing on that bit (perhaps one of many) in Morrison's JLA where Aquaman does that - generally I think Mozzer managed to make all that "they are gods!" stuff work, but even he couldn't help making Arthur (his name is ARTHUR and he is a KING and he has a BEARD, do you see?) a pompous, cor-look-at-the-size-of-my-ocean bore.
 
 
Mario
12:16 / 08.03.07
Twice. This is the funnier one:

  
 
Hieronymus
15:57 / 08.03.07
How imperative is Steve Trevor's romantic relationship with Diana? Is he Lois Lane to her Superman?

Because I've always thought he was best used as a surrogate father character to Diana on the island. That Diana's biological bfather should be Herakles in the George Perez story of Herakles attacking Hippolyta (giving Diana that demi-god strength and negating that absurd story about her born as a clay golem) and that, following Hippolyta's freedom from slavery for herself and her people (the bonds being the bracelets Diana inherits), this American pilot crashlands on Themyscira and falls in love with Diana's mother... thus giving Diana a reason to wear a star-spangled costume when she ventures out to Man's World.
 
 
Mark Parsons
03:13 / 09.03.07
I'd lose the swimsuit look. The skirt is better, semi-armour best, IMO.

She never seems "Greek" to me at all, just a sort of nice American supermodel.

I always thought the whole Perez "bondage" and rape backstory for the Amazons was horrid and degrading and I don't care if it's actually part of mythology.

The ambassador who brings peace angle is problematic in the long run. She should be a warrior who tries to choose non-violence but will throw down if need be.

Having Themyscira a known state is maybe a mistake. Fair enough, the DCu is populated by all manner of mythic-alien-bizarro individuals, but somehow having DCU news cover the island makes it feel less mysterious.

Love the WW as TOM STRONG angle!

Eventually, somebody will do a defining run on the character. Perez was really fine for the time (despite my misgivings), Jiminez tried hard, Rucka did some solid stuff that got truncated early due to IC and heinberg/Dodson have made her FUN again.

There is so very much fantastic material lying about in WW's backyard: she'll get her time in the sun, sooner rather than later, I hope.

(Read MANHUNTER! Great book! Great Dames!)
 
 
Mark Parsons
03:17 / 09.03.07
Black Adam is SO COOL.

I'm a bit bummed that they...SPOILER...
















...did away with Isis and Osiris as I loved the Black Marvel Family concept. Plus, he's lost his family b4 and this felt like a repeat (a powerfully told one, natch).
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
18:23 / 09.03.07
That Diana's biological bfather should be Herakles in the George Perez story of Herakles attacking Hippolyta (giving Diana that demi-god strength and negating that absurd story about her born as a clay golem)

Ooh, i like that one as well. Ties in with aspects of Kali and feminist interpretations of Sofian Gnosticism, and creates a real Dark-Father villain (she can bond with Cassandra Cain, too). Anything that makes Herakles the bad guy is also kinda cool by me, given the use of Herakles-vs-Hydra symbolism by early modern colonialist patriarchy (see The Many-headed Hydra). Lots and lots of scope for anti-patriarchal, anti-Freudian, anti-colonial and generally anti-authoritarian subtext...
 
 
murphy
19:45 / 09.03.07
I saw this proosal on the DC webpage:

"She should tear people in half.

Respectfully submitted,
Mr. Geoff Johns"

Think it wil take?
 
 
Soldier of the Green
02:15 / 21.03.07
I feel like the costume is really at odds with almost everything else about the Wonder Woman character:

Royalty, Power, Ancient Culture and Magic...

But is a skirt and a cape enough to make us take the character seriously?
 
 
Aertho
13:45 / 21.03.07
Writers worry too much about Diana. We've talked before about how comics need to be for kids, and not fanbois, so let THAT drive the discussion, plz.

WW is the #1 female superhero, and I'd like her to actually be for females. And not just what guys or gays want her to about. So I'd like some XX input here.

But since I'm here and can't be arsed to check my own equipment...

LOSE "Peace", "Equality" or "Truth" as overall themes. Instead, make Diana accessible to little girls by making her simply about "Playing Fair".

Bring Hippolyta back. Make Paradise Island an isolationist state. Make the Amazons supertechnology/classical hybrids - like the Versus Planetary version.

Instead of Ambassador for Peace, make Diana an Activist for Fairness. Make her the superpowered Angelina Jolie with a hundred relevant causes to work on. For fun, she explores unknown areas of the world, and hangs out with the mad scientists of DCU.

Give her plenty of boyfriends and dates on the weekend. Make her frends with nearly every hero, celebrity and world leader, so she can easily have guest stars and stuff.

Ditch the costume. Model Diana on Barbie. Not in bodyshape or blondeness, but in Barbie's never ending fashion line. Diana should have a new costume with every new artist, and every new situation. And DC should sell action figures and accessory packs with clothes of each one.

Agent Diana Prince is great, but the Dodson's body suit doesn't need to be so spandexy. Diana should have fun in her secret identity, motivated to work with the agency because "playing human" is "playing fair".
 
 
Tom Coates
15:23 / 21.03.07
I have to say, I loved the George Perez reboot back in the day. I was fascinated by the idea of her not being a super hero, but being a combination of ambassador and alien. I think there's something interesting in the Amazon mythos about being forced to do things through obligation. I like the idea that she takes on a burden of being in man's world in some way, but I also like the empowered strong charismatic and equal of all men approach that she's manifested over the last ten years or so.
 
 
Spaniel
16:04 / 21.03.07
We've talked before about how comics need to be for kids, and not fanbois, so let THAT drive the discussion, plz.

I like some of your ideas, but I disagree pretty strongly with that statement for reasons which have also been discussed.

Briefly

- It's never been clear to me what exactly "for kids" means. Are we talking about what they want (how do we know?), are we talking about what we should be giving them (er?). I've talked before about how 2000AD muddies the waters for me considerably when thinking about this issue, in that bazillions of kids loved it back in the day, but in many ways you wouldn't have thought it was a kids comic.

- We also shouldn't forget that comics are, in the main, bought by people in their late teens and up. Whether kids can be re-engaged by comics is a big question, and one that perhaps Wonder Woman isn't the answer to.
 
 
Mario
16:47 / 21.03.07
There's a line that I read once that may apply:

"I was told by the producer that the guiding principle was to make the scripts complex enough to keep the Kids interested and simple enough for the Adults to understand!"

-Douglas Adams on Dr. Who
 
 
Spaniel
18:12 / 21.03.07
That's a goon 'un. Being worried about what's appropriate for kids is another, more concerning, matter.
 
 
Aertho
19:24 / 21.03.07
Meh. I prolly should have considered my words better for my dip back into the Comics forum pool. Hi all ;-)

Kids, meaning the adolescents that watched and enjoyed Justice League, and the young ladies that thought Diana and Shayera were the bees knees. I'm not suggesting adults, or grown kids, can't find the book entertaining, but that it might serve the character better to be drawn, and imagined, in the vein of somewhere inbetween Johnny DC and DCU as it is today. Madcap action mixed with aw hell no situations and a few mythological anecdotes.

I too thought the George Perez relaunch was phenomenal, but in retrospect is kind of All-Star Themyscira. Not necessarily Wonder Woman! ... Heinberg's new take kind of built a bridge to where I'd like to see her franchise end up.

I've taken to reading a lot of Ragnell the Foul and was hoping she might weigh in. The Barb's one of her top links.
 
 
Mario
22:06 / 21.03.07
You want to get kids to read comics? Forget about Johnny DC and "all-ages". Look at the books kids actually READ, like Harry Potter or Artemis Fowl.

Or, to save time, look at Shazam: MSOE.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:35 / 13.04.07
It's over! It's finally over! All those years of soulless, directionless Wonder Woman comics are over! Gail freakin' Simone has signed up to write it from issue thirteen onwards!
Everything is now great and always will be.
 
 
Mario
14:12 / 13.04.07
This quote gave me a happy feeling:

"When a giant robot attacks Metropolis, send Superman. An alien attack? Get Green Lantern. When a car is hijacked by an escaped loony, turn on the bat signal, by all means. But if an ARMY shows up on your doorstep, that’s when you call in Wonder Woman."
 
  

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