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the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction

 
 
sleazenation
10:10 / 18.07.01
Running out of the Tate modern thread…

Walter Benjamin. Do people actually believe That orginal art objects are invested with some kind of 'aura of authenticity'?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:34 / 18.07.01
I guess I must, because my first thought upon seeing that the "Large Glass" in the Tate Modern was a reproduction was " oh shit, this isnt' the real thing."

By the same token, for whatever inchoate reason, photography (and I guess digital art) have seemed to me to be "lesser" arts than painting or drawing precisely because there can be hundreds of different prints made from a single negative, none of them being better or worse or different from each other in any significant way.

Perhaps this is bound up in notions of ownership and property. There is more prestige in owning an original, one-of-a-kind painting than there is in owning a print of a photograph from a limited edition of say 200. You can't own the entire edition. So perhaps the "original" is a function of the marketplace, rather than being an intrinsic quality. "Authenticity fetishism," to coin a phrase, was quite rampant throughout the 90s.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:36 / 18.07.01
I'll again pose the question I posed in the Tate Modern thread: Would going to a museum like the Tate Modern, but where every single art work in it was a replica, be a different experience than going to the Tate Modern? If so, why? Try to explain that without belief in an "aura of authenticity".
 
 
deletia
11:18 / 18.07.01
Interesting.

John Berger, in "Ways of Seeing", talks about the fierce competition between The National Gallery and the Louvre (I think) about which of their cartoons of "Madonna and Child) is the "original". Both are, it seems, *authentic*, but enormous effort was expended on attempting to establish that their own version was the "original", and tus the more valuable or worthwhile.

Is this just about capital?
 
 
Saveloy
11:30 / 18.07.01
It annoys me, but I think that knowledge of the origins of an object cannot fail to affect ones appreciation of it. For instance, as objects in their own right, most fossils are pretty dull and uninteresting. It's only the fact that you know that it is millions of years old and was part of some big fuck-off monster that makes you want to touch it. Similarly, there was a documentary on recently where the presenter had placed into his hand a lump of black rock, which became fascinating and special only once the geologist present revealed that it was part of a meteorite and was quite possibly one of the oldest objects in the universe. (Well, something like that, anyway).

Is it fair to suggest that something similar might affect artworks?
 
 
sleazenation
11:36 / 18.07.01
Just moving the stuff i wrote in the tate modern thread over to here

quote: What Benjamin sees as the politicisation of the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction misses the point a bit and is very much tied up in notions of the author that date back to the enlightenment.
The work of art has *always* been politicised and the age of mechanical reproduction (in itself a prejudicial term that implies machinery re-producing an art object that pre-existed it rather than producing an original art object) is not as much the end of 'authenticity' than proof that it never really existed in the first place.


-- comments?

[ 18-07-2001: Message edited by: sleazenation ]
 
 
Saveloy
11:50 / 18.07.01
"The work of art has *always* been politicised and the age
of mechanical reproduction (in itself a prejudicial term that
implies machinery re-producing an art object that
pre-existed it rather than producing an original art object)
is not as much the end of 'authenticity' than proof that it
never really existed in the first place."


I'd like to see a further explanation of that. In what way is it proof? Not necc. disagreeing, just interested.
 
 
Cavatina
11:51 / 18.07.01
Establishing the difference between an 'original' and an exact replica is an old conundrum. But the objects are not identical, and I would prefer to see the authentic versions of, say, historical paintings because of their persistence through time and the stories attached to this. So I'd be doing 'the investing with a special aura' as a result of whatever knowledge and romantic notions I brought to my observations.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
11:57 / 18.07.01
todd: a question - does the dislike of replicated artworks also preclude the appreciation of things like woodcuts, or silkscreens, or works produced by other such methods? Would the gallery have to hang a negative on the wall in order for a photographic work to have the same talismanic quality that an oil painting might? Just curious.

Also: for things like The Large Glass, is it the fact that it's a copy that shits you? Or the fact that you mightn't be able to be sure that Breton (it was him, wasn't it?) had anything to do with it? I recall that Picasso used to make multiples of some of his sculptures, and give them as gifts. If this copy of The Large Glass were the only one available to the public out of that limited edition, would it - in a sense - become the artwork?

For me, though, there is something - and I can't put my finger on it - important in going to a museum and seeing a "real" work. A geniune Magritte, or Bacon, or whatever. That's kinda the point, though I can't pinpoint why. If facsimile was what I was interested in (facsimile of one-offs, as opposed to artist-instigated runs), why would I need to look somewhere other than any of the online galleries? Mark Harden's Artchive could suffice if looking at a copy were your only only reasons for visiting. I tend to agree with Saveloy that there's something about the human involved in the artworks - corny as connection, if you want to term it that - that draws me to the original. I guess that the answer is yes; there is an aura about original artworks. The connection with the artist; knowing that they had a hand in it, they designed/prefigured/whatever the work - that means something. Though what, I'm not sure.

Sleaze: not too sure. Care to tease it out a little - how can it never have existed at all? I'm a little lost.
 
 
sleazenation
13:22 / 18.07.01
As i understand it, the enlightenment notion of authorship was bound up in all sorts of ideas of 'creativity'. The author as 'god' creating the art object out of nothing and granting unto it meaning. This idea priviliges the the moment of 'creation' as single act that of one person and fails to attribute all the other cultural input.

This is sometimes and i feel wrongly confused with historical/scientific authenticity- the history of a given object.

In the case of 'mechanically produced' art objects, the shaky notion of a 'single act of a single creator' falls apart as increasingly more and more people are required to produce a single art object. (this includes not just say the cast and crew of a film, but also all those involved in the production of the cameras, lights etc used to make it) increasingly more people are required to produce a single art object, whilst none of the ideas of this creator god figure occured in a vacuum.

basically I read the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction severely undermined by post structrialist notions posited by Barthes in places such as his essay 'the death of the author'


am i making sense of am i talking complete twaddle?
 
 
pantone 292
16:56 / 18.07.01
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What Benjamin sees as the politicisation of the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction misses the point a bit and is very much tied up in notions of the author that date back to the enlightenment.
The work of art has *always* been politicised and the age of mechanical reproduction (in itself a prejudicial term that implies machinery re-producing an art object that pre-existed it rather than producing an original art object) is not as much the end of 'authenticity' than proof that it never really existed in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- comments
hi Sleaze
I am struggling with WB right now [if anyone likes can recommend some fab stuff] and the thing to remember w/WB is everything is topsy turvy and back to front but not necessarily in that order. So - start linking mechanical reproduction with language and writing and you break the seeming reduction to machines like a camera. And if writing starts coming first...then everything is shaken. What he means when he's on about the politicisation of art is its capacity to represent the masses when 'art' is no longer the single, precious art objet being contemplated by a single individual but the mass-produced product consumed by the masses in a state of distraction [which he applauds, to his mate Teddy Adorno's horror]. WB implies that the advent of photographic repro changes the category of art forever and in retrospect too...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:52 / 19.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Rothkoid:
todd: a question - does the dislike of replicated artworks also preclude the appreciation of things like woodcuts, or silkscreens, or works produced by other such methods? Would the gallery have to hang a negative on the wall in order for a photographic work to have the same talismanic quality that an oil painting might? Just curious.


I don't know if this is precisely germane to your question, but while visiting the recent Blake exhibition at the Met in NYC (more or less the same show was at the Tate Britain last fall), the most interesting thing to me was not the books themselves but the "original" engraving plates used to print the books. I didn't know ~anything~ about printmaking or engraving before the exhibition, but the technical mastery and (if the exhibition tages are to be believed) innovation evident in Blake's engravings were the most interesting things about the exhibition at all.

Veering back a bit toward your question, I don't have an animus against woodcuts or prints, but I think antiquity of the item helps it in cultivating the same aura, say, a Van Eyck would have. Very weird, because I tend to gravitate towards non-linear theories of history and all that garbage.

quote:Originally posted by Rothkoid:
Also: for things like The Large Glass, is it the fact that it's a copy that shits you? Or the fact that you mightn't be able to be sure that Breton (it was him, wasn't it?) had anything to do with it? I recall that Picasso used to make multiples of some of his sculptures, and give them as gifts. If this copy of The Large Glass were the only one available to the public out of that limited edition, would it - in a sense - become the artwork?



The Large Glass (Also known as "The Bride stripped bare by her bachelors, even" or something close to that) was a sculpture by Duchamp that already has some sort of talismanic quality for me as (a) it's by Duchamp, probably the most important person in 20th century art and the closest to a personal hero I come (which parenthetically is why I am loath to read ~too~ much about him). (b) is a strange synthesis of modernist and occult-ish themes (c) the shattering of the original glass in transport 'completed' the artwork for Duchamp, who toyed with it for years. This random end is fraught with either significance or banal superstition. Either is a great object lesson for artists.

So, the glass as a concept holds great significance for me personally. Duchamp made replicas of a lot of his works (indeed, how hard is it to duplicate R. Mutt's "Fountain") , and perhaps this was made by him as well. I can't recall. So maybe the artist had direct involvement with the project. But why did I feel different about it? It is a similar feeling to me, to looking at reproductions in a book of artwork the Nazis destroyed. This quintessence is unavailable to me forevermore.

Before I dive too deep into myticism, I'd like to mention that the most probing treatise on issues of authenticity and capital I've ever read is PK Dick's "Ubik". For those unfamiliar with the book, in it, the main character is trapped inside a world where the technological accoutrements of the day are slowly regressing to more primitive forms. The only thing that saves the characters from dissolving into nothingness is Ubik,the only authentic substance, which appears variably as an aerosol spray, salve, etc.
 
 
sleazenation
11:20 / 19.07.01
Hey if we are going to bring PK Dick into authenticity (and one of the central themes of Dicks work was the question of the 'authentic' human) you have to read 'the man in the high castle'- especially the sections pertaining to (in)authentic antiques
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:38 / 19.07.01
Duchamp. Duh. I'm an idiot. On the tip of my tongue...

I do agree about the Blake exhibition, too, though. I saw it when it was at the Tate, and found that the majority of it - while not denying Blake's brilliance - tended to wear a bit. It was only the larger works and the printing/etching plates that I found to have real meaning there. Don't know why -maybe because the process was visible?
 
 
gentleman loser
16:43 / 20.07.01
I think that what will really be interesting is if we get to the Nanotech Age without destroying ourselves (which I very much doubt) what will happen to the art market.

If I can produce, for example, an exact copy of the "Mona Lisa", right down to the molecule, will the original work have any value whatsoever? Of course, if we reach the era of widespread nanotechnology, that will be the least of our worries!
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:27 / 11.08.01
I'm not sure it will. We're rushing into an era of confused identity without the slightest idea what that means. This question is a symptom, but it's a telling one. If we can't answer this question about an object, how can we hope to do the same for ourselves?
 
 
ynh
03:19 / 12.08.01
Oh dear, Nick. Perhaps we need several new threads. This discussion seems (coddle me) to ignore the cultural value of the Mona Lisa, the resonance one gets by employing it as a metaphor or deploying it in variable contexts: an ad, a movie, or your living room.

Gysin once remarked that the Louvre is half-full of replicas. Yet we the people go and accept that we are looking at originals, and feel this "aura;" the experience is false.

Care to flesh out the identity thoughts?
 
 
Cavatina
10:23 / 12.08.01
gentleman loser
quote:If I can reproduce ... will the original work have any value whatsoever?

Only if we believe that standing before it can offer us nothing more than the 'repro down to the last molecule' does. The following passage in the first essay in Berger's Ways of Seeing is pertinent here:

quote:We are not saying there is nothing left to experience before original works of art except a sense of awe because they have survived. ... We are not saying that original works of art are now useless. Original paintings are silent and still in a sense that information never is. Even a reproduction hung on a wall is not comparable in this respect for in the original the silence and stillness permeate the actual material, the paint, which follows the traces of the painter's immediate gestures. This has the effect of closing the distance in time between the painting of the picture and one's own act of looking at it. In this special sense all paintings are contemporary. Hence the immediacy of their testimony. Their historical moment is literally there before our eyes. (p. 31)
 
 
Molly Shortcake
02:21 / 13.08.01
Some museum curators and 'cultural elite' are begining to recognize digital media and video games as art. Since these consist entirely of code, every single 'copy' is an 'original'. I'm surprised no one's delved into Baudrillards simulacra/simulation theories.

[paraphrase] When something is an exzact copy, it is not a fake, it is a bit more exzact.[/paraphrase]

[ 13-08-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey ]
 
 
Vitamin-C
07:07 / 06.09.01
okay, so walter benjamins theory on the aura of art being destroyed by the age of mechanical reproduction was wrong. he wanted to believe it would be destroyed, and at the time it must have have seemed like a safe bet. however, it all went kinda pear shaped. and mechanical reproduction not only didn't destroy the aura of an art work, but added to it. the countless reproductions of artworks such as the mona lisa on table clothes, t-shirts, coffee mugs, whatever. they all served to promote the mona lisa as a cultural commodity and reinforce its so called 'aura'. an 'aura' which exists, not only because of the fact that daVinci painted it. but because of it's history, who has previously owned it(and more importantly, how much they were willing to pay for it), where it has been exhibited, what has been wrote about it, and so on. basically, everything that surrounds it. even us talking about it right now adds to it's aura. it's endless. and yes, the aura of a work of art essentially only exists in the head of the person viewing it. it's what that person brings to it(their knowledge etc) that creates the 'aura'.

oh...and another thing about the large glass. the replica was actually made by another fantastic artist called richard hamilton. and duchamp did make 'r.mutts' fountain in 1917. it was first time he defined the concept of the 'ready-made'. something which surely undermines the idea of the 'aura' as being solely linked to the 'artists touch'.
 
  
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