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The Kids Are United. In Despair.

 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
17:37 / 14.02.07
BBC Report here and the full PDF here (which, obviously, opens as a .pdf file).

When reading something like this you're supposed to begin your commentary with a phrase like 'sobering stuff' or 'A shocking report reveals'. In this case however, I could have guessed every result. If I could have put money on it then I'd be trying to work out the most concise summary of my pimpin' abilities that can be written on my teeth in diamonds instead of writing this post. You see, I live across from a primary school; the primary school is across from a burnt-out pub, which is next door to me, and currently being used as a crack-den. The council comes along occasionally to put up new security fences, but by the following morning they'll be scattered over the street again. The council hasn't been back for a few months now. Somebody has spray-painted 'All Hope Atrophies' on one of the boarded-up windows facing the school's playground. Then there were the two fifteen-year-old shoplifters who killed a security guard and seriously wounded another in HMV in front of at least a hundred Christmas shoppers, at least a dozen cameras and several friends of mine who worked there because they'd rather take somebody's father away days before Christmas and spend several years in jail than go to the manager's office to get a telling off. And there was the kids, none of them more than fourteen, on my University campus who were setting a pitbull on anyone who didn't want to pay them to use the bridge to the medical college. I'm hardly innocent myself: drinking and getting high by thirteen, depression and therapy by fifteen, and I lived one of those fluffy middle-class lives that people like to pretend makes you grow up right.
So, I think we know things are fucked up right now. Questions: was it always this bad? Why are things so bad here? Most importantly: what can be done to make things better?
 
 
Spaniel
12:00 / 15.02.07
I went to school with the security guard that died. We used to take the piss out of him. Everyone used to take th piss out of him. I feel pretty terrible about it.

Just a fun aside.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:53 / 21.02.07
It's so bad because of Thatcherism, most likely - Thatcherism and/or selfish conservative politics in general. Except that's a generalisation. I'd like to go into more detail, but my ideas here are very floaty - you will probably want to correct me at some stage:

I also think it has something to do with the breakdown, not of "traditional family values" - utter bollocks - but with the breakdown of terraced working class communities (where community is forced by close proximity, this being one good thing amongst a host of hardships) in the age where everyone is encouraged to aspire to being middle class - most disadvantaged people now live in semi-detatched houses or tower blocks, which isolates people and families.

Now this may not be a problem if you have money, books and education, because you can interact with other people in those other ways, but if you don't have those things you'll not only have the obvious problems - of how the kids are supposed to do well at school - but any problems you do have will be compounded by the fact that your neighbour is no longer your neighbour. I mean, it's easier to illustrate with pictures:



A typical group of terraces presented in stylised fashion. You can see how people were in eachother's faces - privacy was not an option, diseases spread like wildfire - but, whatever it's faults, this community is communal. People there are forced into social behaviour. As opposed to:



A Wythenshaw towerblock, which is distinctly less so. This is a way of life invented for the moneyed middle classes, this is not worler's accomodation. Yet the people who live here are not the moneyed middle classes - they would be the working classes, if there was any work around any more, which there isn't, because the conservatives destroyed industry.

As well as the changes in the places - and thus the ways - that people live, I think another effect of this ruthless money-grabbing ideology has been to convert schools and universities from places of learning and debate into places where you can find out how to win money. This is isn't just my subjective experience of my current education: it's a symptom you find in every prospectus, every television adverts. Likewise, books "and all that" are no longer seen as important. We're told that the grand aim of life is to get to a place where you can afford a house in the suburbs, a big car, and membership of a golf club. If something doesn't help you up the money ladder it's worthless. We're made to know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

And I think kids are clever enough to realize that this, as a priority, is bullshit - there just isn't any other option: conformity, or the violent apathy and stasis of gangs and religious organisations. Because there's so much emphasis on business and things that contribute to business, and not enough on the liberal arts, if you aren't the sort of kid who wants to get very rich or who has skills in that direction no-one wants to know about you. If you can't succeed in the overworld the underworld awaits.
 
 
Lagrange's Nightmare
10:40 / 22.02.07
I don't know, is the UK that bad? or perhaps is it that much worse than other countries?

For one the study doesn't mention underage crime rates, so maybe the UK could come out even worse. However looking at the unicef study, the UK has done particularly badly (although not good in any of them overall) in three categories. These are: Family and Peer relationships, Behaviours and Risks and Subjective Well-Being.

In family and peer relationships - UK scored very badly for families having single parents and step parents. Is that a valid measure of a how worse off a child is? I always thought it was part of the conservative 'family values' scare campaign. The report says:

But at the statistical level there is evidence to associate growing up in single-parent families and stepfamilies with greater risk to well-being – including a greater risk of dropping out of school, of leaving home early, of poorer health, of low skills, and of low pay.

Any thoughts? (oh there is this thread here.)

Next section, UK is marked down because kids are drinking, taking drugs and having sex earlier then the other countries (for ages 11, 13, 15). I'm not sure what to say about this one, i imagine everyone would have a different age where they think it's ok etc. The alcohol question was on whether or not you had been drunk two times. I know when i was 13 it didn't take much alcohol to convince me i was drunk... boy did i learn.

And finally - subjective well-being. So children in the UK believe they are worse off. Hmm that is a just little worrying. Although one of the questions was whether they like school or not (Damn those norwegians really like school! oh wait that's still only 40%.) Heh i always thought it was a rule for kids to say they didn't like school even if they did.

Not being from the UK i can't really judge the results (It seems Australia couldn't be bothered to answer half the questions.) Overall some of the methodology seems to suck. Anyone got any better measures of well-being?
 
 
nighthawk
17:30 / 22.02.07

A Wythenshaw towerblock, which is distinctly less so. This is a way of life invented for the moneyed middle classes, this is not worler's accomodation.


What makes you say that? I'm not disagreeing necessarily, just wondering... This is from an article on housing from a Aufheben #13 - unfortunately they haven't put the full thing up on their website yet:

The 1960s saw the beginnings of the transformation of Britain's urban centres. Over the next two decades the old, predominantly Victorian, town centres were to be town down and replaced by highly profitable shopping centres and office blocks, replete with ring roads and multi-storey car parks. However, for such urban regeneration to take place the first step was the rehousing of largely working class populations that still lived in city centres. This required the continued expansion of council housing. In order to contain the costs of these major rehousing programmes, local and national government readily adopted a strategy of high-density high rise building, which was being vigorously promoted by large-scale construction firms and modernist architects. It was hoped that modern building techniques would contain building costs, while the high densities allowed by high rise housing would reduce the amount of land required by the rehousing programmes, thereby saving land costs. As a consequence, the 1960s became the decade of high-rise blocks of flats, which sprang up across Britain's towns and cities.

However it was not long before the adoption of the high-rise strategy proved to be a monumental economic and social disaster. The new, often untried, building techniques failed to contain the rise in construction costs. Instead, to remain within budget and under pressure from property developers pressing for an early start to the urban regeneration schemes, local authorities sanctioned crude cost cutting. Ther vertical communities, replete with communal facilities, which had been envisaged by the modernist architects of the 1950s, were reduced to little more than vertical dormitories. Cutting corners led to shoddy construction. In 1967 the high-rise boom was brought to a sudden halt by the collapse of the Roman Point tower block, which killed four people.


One thing explored in the rest of the article is the general increase in owner-occupancy among the middle-class over the past century, with all the implications that has for rented and council housing. By the 1960s, council housing of this sort wasn't really intended for the middle-classes, which is why I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here? Unless you're suggesting that this sort of housing would be better suited to the middle-classes, and was designed (though not built) with them in mind?

Also, I wonder if you could develop this a little:

And I think kids are clever enough to realize that this, as a priority, is bullshit - there just isn't any other option: conformity, or the violent apathy and stasis of gangs and religious organisations. Because there's so much emphasis on business and things that contribute to business, and not enough on the liberal arts, if you aren't the sort of kid who wants to get very rich or who has skills in that direction no-one wants to know about you.

I think I see where you're coming from, but what role do you think the 'liberal arts' have to play in all this? I mean, are you suggesting that disaffcted young people are all frustrated liberal arts scholars? If more school-time were devoted to the liberal arts, what results would you expect?
 
 
nighthawk
21:12 / 25.02.07
[Veering off-topic now, but libcom have put up that Aufheben article. Its worth a read.]
 
 
power vacuums & pure moments
20:01 / 28.02.07
And I think kids are clever enough to realize that this, as a priority, is bullshit - there just isn't any other option: conformity, or the violent apathy and stasis of gangs and religious organisations.

True enough, but you neglect to mention the many young people who realise that social priorities are bullshit, conformity is not in the interests of their personal well being, but manage to live in an alternative style without being sociopathic gangbangers. I live in a squatted house and havent worked [beyond sparodic guitar tutoring and organising psytrance parties] for years but i still manage to live a creative and fulfilling existience. Extreme negative views about society and your place in it do not necessarily translate into hurting your fellow humans, unless your a cunt that thinks grime is good music. I think the real problem is the nihlistic anti-society attitude prevalent in the inner cities that might possibly turn into some sort of radical class-conciousness were it not for the equal prevalence of gross consumerist desire.
 
 
Feverfew
20:15 / 28.02.07
I think what you've said there is interesting, and well-put, but;

unless your a cunt that thinks grime is good music.

- is possibly not a phrase that will win you particular joy around here, on several levels. Could you unpack why this particular genre of music makes people so undesireable in your eyes - because even if it seems totally obvious to you, it may not be to many of the rest of us?
 
 
nighthawk
20:37 / 28.02.07
Yes, it would be good if you could expand on that whole post metalayer. What do you mean by social priorities, and why are they bullshit? Does this include things like putting food on the table, paying the bills, having control over one's time and activity, feeling contented and succesful? Because these are some of the priorities of people I know, and they could all be described as 'social'. It confuses me when people act as though wanting material comfort, autonomy, and success were itself the root cause of all social ills. The means to realising these desires might be fairly shitty for a lot of people, but surely that's a very different point? On the same note, what is it about 'gross consumerist desire' that is restricting class-consciousness? I'm just interested in how you think this tension plays out in day to day life, what 'consumerist desire' is and how it is checking class-consciousness.
 
 
nighthawk
20:46 / 28.02.07
Oh, and what you think 'class-consciousness' is while we're at it. I mean, are you worried about the fact that kids would rather buy nike hats than leftist newspapers? That they like grime rather than psytrance? Or do you mean something else?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:59 / 28.02.07
And, perhaps most importantly of all, is your father a high court judge?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
21:46 / 28.02.07
In my book, liking psytrance, while in no way equalling cunthood, is a clear sign of too much squatting and too little exercise. Rots the brain, so.

On-topic, now. I really like Allecto's point about the shift in the organisation of housing and social space. While not a UK native, and not particularly well-read on modern UK social history, I tend to entertain the notion that the physical, geographical environment in significant ways structure a lot of the small actions that make up the daily grind. Richard Sennett has written a lot of good stuff on this mix of sociology and social geography - I particularly liked Flesh And Stone: The Body And The City In Western Civilisation.

Another notion that could be put to use is stigmergy, a phrase coined by the French biologist Pierre-Paul Grassé to describe "a method of indirect communication in a self-organising emergent system where its individual parts communicate with one another by modifying their local environment."

What I find appealing about this idea is that it speaks directly to the problem of how to analyse socially meaningful actions without attributing a socially meaningful intention, or even an actor in the sense of an intentional human agent. Houses, collections of houses, town planning, road constructions - besides their obvious functions as facilitating and coordinating entities and processes, also leave behind unintended denotations and connotations, signs whose meaning are other than intended, perhaps even opposite in meaning for particular "readers" than the original intent.
 
 
illmatic
08:10 / 01.03.07
I saw an interesting interview with Julia Margo from the Institute of Public Policy Research on BBC News 24 a month or two ago. She talked about comparative research they’d in other countries to find out the differences that might explain high rates of youth crime etc here.

She said they'd found that the longer working hours in the UK on behalf of adults was a factor. It led to a lack of time spent by adults with teens and a decline of opportunities for "mentoring" (for want of a better word). Another related thing was a lack of shared social spaces, where the different generations might come into contact with each other. If you do not have the income that employment eaffords, either due to age or lack of job opportunities, then where can you go? The car’s dominance in (sub)urban spaces also reduces the chances for social contact. She was saying that if teens were left to their own devices and have little or minimal encouragement from or contact with adults, the chances are higher they'll go off the rails. You can see these negative consequences as a direct result of the capitalist development that began in the eighties.

Metalayer: I found your post preening and self-congratulatory and pretty irrelevant to the thread, unless you're suggesting "the kids" all collectively take up squatting. Interesting comment about grime. Obviously the fact that it’s dominant feature is working class kids from multi-ethnic backgrounds talking about their lives and concerns has nothing to do with your contempt. Keep sticking it to the man, man.
 
 
power vacuums & pure moments
20:12 / 01.03.07
unless your a cunt that thinks grime is good music.
- is possibly not a phrase that will win you particular joy around here, on several levels. Could you unpack why this particular genre of music makes people so undesireable in your eyes


Flippant comment elicted by enforced listening of K-sounds 'next up' on the bus on day of post. I stand by it though, it obviously doesnt make people undesirable by itself but it seems to strongly resonate with a lot of damaged and hostile people and is a genre native to inner city areas of the UK. I was using music to identify a particular demographic which you may or may not be aware of depending on your location.

What do you mean by social priorities, and why are they bullshit? Does this include things like putting food on the table, paying the bills, having control over one's time and activity, feeling contented and succesful?

I was responding to the thread starter. His definition/usage of [the prevailing] social priority was basically the pursuit of money and status, standard consumer capitalism. I concurred. What you have described are basic human needs that sometimes overlap with what we are socially conditioned to want. The complications come in when we fulfill these desires at the expense of others, which is somewhat inevitable given the inherently exploitative nature of capitalism. Skiming over huge deabtes here but i dont wish to derail this thread anymore than i supposedly have.

Oh, and what you think 'class-consciousness' is while we're at it. I mean, are you worried about the fact that kids would rather buy nike hats than leftist newspapers?

Awareness of being a member of a deprived social group and taking positive steps to remedy the situation, beyond individual self-realisation/aspiration to the bourgeois in compliance with the capitalist system. Essentially the answer to your question is yes, although framing it in terms of consumption is pretty pointless.

And, perhaps most importantly of all, is your father a high court judge?

No, he is a middle manager. Ooh his company car is a jaguar though...does that invalidate my views and lifestyle choices? Mean i havent experienced real hardship? Any other elements of this jibe i have missed?

Metalayer: I found your post preening and self-congratulatory and pretty irrelevant to the thread, unless you're suggesting "the kids" all collectively take up squatting. Interesting comment about grime. Obviously the fact that it’s dominant feature is working class kids from multi-ethnic backgrounds talking about their lives and concerns has nothing to do with your contempt. Keep sticking it to the man, man.

Maybe read the thread just a little bit, man. Thread starter suggested that the choice for 'the kids' is conformity or 'the violent apathy and stasis of gangs'. I decided to draw on my personal experience to present my optimistic view that there are more options than that available to us. If you consider that self-congratulatory then fair enough, regurgitate others opinions instead of engaging meaningfully with real problems. As to your comments on grime, just because its a genre created largely by 'working class kids from multi-ethnic backgrounds' doesnt mean im going to idolise it or excuse its near total nihilism. I see it as both a product and a signifyer of a decaying inner-city culture. Show me some grime lyrics with a non-violent or in anyway hopeful lyrical content and maybe ill change my mind.

'When i roll for the endz i put my hoodie up/you gotta know K-Sounds dont give a fuck'
 
 
nighthawk
20:48 / 01.03.07
This is going to end well isn't it.

If you must share your no doubt nuanced and informed insights into grime, I suggest you wander over to the Music Forum. As to the rest - for all your cod-Marxist rhetoric, does your analysis actually develop beyond moralising about the deluded (sorry, 'socially conditioned') masses? If that's all you have to offer, you might want to think twice before accusing other posters of 'reguritating others opinions'.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:49 / 01.03.07
But... that sounds really good.

No, he is a middle manager. Ooh his company car is a jaguar though...does that invalidate my views and lifestyle choices? Mean i havent experienced real hardship? Any other elements of this jibe i have missed?

No, that pretty much covers it, but I had no idea you were going to make it that easy. Dude. I actually feel a bit guilty now. I mean, I was making a bit of a point that people from middle-class, white-collar environments, good schools, that kind of thing, often get to hang around playing the didgeridoo and learning fire poi, whereas your struggle-to-survive, brutalised youth might be less poi-friendly, but I had no idea it was going to be that... zipless.

So guilty, in fact, do I feel that I will direct you to where I think you need to be to follow on from:

I was using music to identify a particular demographic which you may or may not be aware of depending on your location.

Young man, there's a place you can go.
 
 
power vacuums & pure moments
20:52 / 01.03.07
At all points when i said i was responding to the the thread starter i actually meant Allecto Regina
 
 
power vacuums & pure moments
21:34 / 01.03.07
Nighthawk - Your trying to frame me as some kind of elitist for talking about social conditioning? I dont understand your response at all. Dismissing my analysis as 'cod-Marxism' without bothering to tell me why i am incorrect is total bullshit. Sure, its not original in the slightest as you pointed out, but my comments about regurgitation were directed at another poster in response to criticism of my speaking from personal experience.

No, that pretty much covers it, but I had no idea you were going to make it that easy. Dude. I actually feel a bit guilty now.

Blah blah. You havent answered my question Haus. Does the social position i was born into [which, despite my sharing of a single piece of information, you know fuck all about] invalidate my views and lifestyle choices? At least have the nuts to conclusively damn me and all my poi-twirling brethren.

Im slightly regretting bringing grime into this, but i honestly feel it is a signifier of some sort. If its not a point people wish to discuss then fine, such is barbelith's aversion to even nascent stereotyping. Go out into the real world and the correllation is less easy to dismiss.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
23:30 / 01.03.07
At all points when i said i was responding to the the thread starter i actually meant Allecto Regina

%Nice to know I'm appreciated...%

Anyway, for a case-study let's meet Ryan Florence:

Ryan's one of the young people the UNICEF report was talking about. Ryan was pictured in the Sun pretending to shoot Tory leader David Cameron, who was in Ryan's native Manchester to speak about teenage gun culture (Ryan apparently didn't know who his pretend target was, and has since realized that Mr. Cameron is in fact "An MP or the next President"). Ryan is a member of the 30-strong Benchill Mad Dogs (motto: 'You live to die'), and in a follow-up interview with the Sun his mother says that her son's problems stem from having nothing do and few prospects for employment since he has a criminal record (Mrs. Florence is quick to note that "people are coming from Poland doing jobs that lads like Ryan should do"). The article concurs on these two points: the problem for Ryan and people like him is that he has little to do and few opportunities.
Let's look at this for a minute. When have young people ever had had anything to do? Maybe some of the older 'lithers can chip in with tales of their childhoods playing pirates and solving mysteries, but I doubt it. Furthermore, what could inner-city kids like Ryan do that would be more exciting than being in a gang, carrying guns and doing drugs? Youth theater? Hiking? Volunteering at a retirement home? There was a youth center in my town when I was growing up with several football pitches, tennis and basketball courts, pool tables, a TV lounge and a bloody climbing wall: all went unused because teenagers, particularly teenage boys, like to prove how little of a fuck they give about everything, and always have (Rebel Without a Cause anyone?). Hence 'You live to die' I suppose.
In terms of jobs, while I am truly shocked that employers would hire hard working immigrants over a drug-addled, gang-affiliated repeat offender, I'm not at all surprised. Newsflash: finding work is really bloody hard. It's hard even if you've got a clean criminal record and a degree. Nobody ever said that the job market would be easy, or fair, or that one doesn't have to make sacrifices to get ahead. Ryan Florence must know how to increase his chances of finding gainful employment (he wants to be a mechanic): get out of the gang, stop getting high, hit the books, do unpaid work-experience, get a diploma and a million other really difficult things that, in the end, may gain him nothing. What's standing in the way is the sense of entitlement native Britons have (c.f Ryan's mum's comments about those darn immigrants taking stealing jobs that existed solely for her idiot son, not to whoever can do them best) coupled with virtually no understanding of how their actions might actually have an affect on their lives- because hey, you can not study in school, hang around with gangs, carry a 'strap', whatever, it's okay because there's a job and a great life automatically assigned to you on birth. Unless teh immigrants take it. When young people find out that this isn't the case their reaction isn't to double their efforts to succeed within the current system, they don't even take Metalayer's proposed route and try to change or work outside of the system. Their non-solution is violent apathy, stasis and nihilism.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
00:51 / 02.03.07
Do you have any idea how often some of us have heard the "well if you don't subscribe to my reactionary views about how some poor people are just scum then you don't live in teh real world?" argument, metalayer?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
04:57 / 02.03.07
Nobody ever said that the job market would be easy, or fair, or that one doesn't have to make sacrifices to get ahead.

I wonder. This is a bit off-topic, but surely if yu're expected to go into debt to the tune of about twenty grand to get your first degree, you're entitled to expect something at the end of it? The fact that there's often nothing much there is something the administration which initiated these policies in the first place should have to answer for, I'd have thought, rather than anyone else.

More on topic though; if you happen to live under a government that routinely spunks billions on foreign military adventures it can't really afford, and which then turns round and tries to blame single parents/the poor/ the permissive society and so on for the consequent fuck-ups that are going to inevitably result from the implied, chronic neglect of public services a given society's got used to, over the years, it's surely no surprise if said society starts to look a bit frayed round the edges, after a while.

In any sort of democracy, it seems a mistake to propose a critique that doesn't start at the top, admin-wise.
 
 
nighthawk
05:48 / 02.03.07
Your trying to frame me as some kind of elitist for talking about social conditioning? I dont understand your response at all. Dismissing my analysis as 'cod-Marxism' without bothering to tell me why i am incorrect is total bullshit.

I'm not trying to 'frame' you as anything, your posts speak for themselves. So far in this thread the only analysis you've offered is to make sneering unpleasant comments about inner-city kids and to offer yourself as a positive role model. Haus doesn't indulge in ad hominem attacks - I imagine he brought up your background because its very relevant if you're going to claim to be today's alternative in the flesh(the way the truth and the light, as it were). Anyone involved in any sort of vaguely leftist politics comes across people who bandy around words like 'class consciousness', 'bourgoisie', 'social conditioning' and who, when pushed, don't seem to have anything to say beyond accusing the working class of failing to be just like them. Its not just unpleasant and patronising, it demonstrates a complete lack of critical reflection, and shows how distant they are from the lives and concerns of most people. These people are completely irrelevant, yet think they are our ideal future embodied. Also they make it very difficult for those of us trying to develop a decent Marxian analysis. Now I'm not yet saying that you fit this type - that's why I asked you to expand on your first post - but based on what you've said so far and your general attitude in this thread you're coming pretty close.

Phex: Newsflash: finding work is really bloody hard. It's hard even if you've got a clean criminal record and a degree. Nobody ever said that the job market would be easy, or fair, or that one doesn't have to make sacrifices to get ahead.

No, of course not, but there are degrees and kinds of difficulty. Its all very well saying that its difficult to find a good job with a good degree, but in the long term your prospects are markedly better than someone living on an inner-city estate. I'll try to post properly later today.
 
 
Spaniel
07:39 / 02.03.07
The fact that there's often nothing much there is something the administration which initiated these policies in the first place should have to answer for, I'd have thought, rather than anyone else

Alex, isn't the point (that would be made by people who know a lot more about economics than me) that people with degrees generate opportunities and wealth by starting business and/or improving old ones, as well as simply filling wholes in the employment market?
 
 
illmatic
08:10 / 02.03.07
Metalayer: I don't have time to reply properly, 'cos I'm teaching in a couple of hours and am still not properly prepared. Most of the guys in my class listen to grime, and I find your characterisation of them as "damaged and hostile" a bit, well, insane. I prefer to think of them as "adolescent and full of hormones".

Show me some grime lyrics with a non-violent or in anyway hopeful lyrical content and maybe ill change my mind.

You seriously think it's all about violence? Christ. To say that is hugely misinformed is a massive understatement.

Well, if I must - I've just been listening to the myspace page of Afrikan Boy. "Letters and Words" has a number of positive social messages and "The Day I Went to Lidl" is interesting in it's narration of day to day life and small scale grief. I don't think it's the most brilliant piece of music I've ever heard but it's interesting to hear music from someone of his background.

More later.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:41 / 02.03.07
It's very revealing, is it not, that the lyrics metalayer chooses to post to illustrate how nihilistic and violent and harmful grime is are:

'When i roll for the endz i put my hoodie up/you gotta know K-Sounds dont give a fuck'

OH NOES he wears a HOODIE! What the fuck is it with these supposed lefties who fall so squarely into line with the Daily Mail view on young people?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:35 / 02.03.07
Alex, isn't the point (that would be made by people who know a lot more about economics than me) that people with degrees generate opportunities and wealth by starting business and/or improving old ones, as well as simply filling holes in the employment market?

Well in theory yes, but I imagine it's fairly hard to muster the requisite, freewheeling, entrepreneurial spirit if you already owe the bank thousands, ie, if you weren't lucky enough to have parents who were prepared to pick up the tab for college. It's a separate topic really, but the bright young things of today's economy who get lionised by the Sunday supplements every now and again are almost always already from priviledged backgrounds
 
 
nighthawk
12:46 / 02.03.07
Yes. I can't remember where I read this, but isn't social mobility at its lowest for the past 50 years? I'll see if I can find a source for that...
 
 
nighthawk
12:51 / 02.03.07
Ok, if this is what I was thinking of its from a year or two ago. I doubt much has changed though.
 
 
Spaniel
15:13 / 02.03.07
They were saying something about that the other week on the Today programme, Nighthawk.

Sorry if folks thought I was suggesting that having a degree helps with social mobility - I wouldn't claim to know much about that - my point was more that graduates are key to any (healthy) capitalist economy in that they help create jobs and wealth - the more enterprising graduates in effect create more places for the less enterprising graduates to fill.

As, and this is crucial, I understand it, which isn't very much.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
17:40 / 02.03.07
No, he is a middle manager. Ooh his company car is a jaguar though...does that invalidate my views and lifestyle choices? Mean i havent experienced real hardship? Any other elements of this jibe i have missed?

Oh, obviously not. It simply means that your poverty is, as you rightly state, a lifestyle choice. So while it may be an achievement for you (and well done on that!), for most people it's actually an accident of birth rather than something they actively aspire to. I'm tempted to start quoting Saint Jarvis of Cocker here, but I should probably resist. As well as the thread linked to by Haus, can also also suggest you might want to peruse this (excellent) article from the Independent Working Class Association.

You may also want to look at what effect your socio-economic background has had on your outlook. All of us are going to be, at least to some extent, socially conditioned by our background. (Though as a heroic countercultural warrior its effects on you will obviously be minimal). And it is the case that, at least going on what you've said, you are from a background who's relation to the working class in industrial capitalism is largely that of controllers and managers. Which might, just possibly, have something to do with your division of people into the deserving and undeserving poor. Which is hardly a new categorisation when all's said and done.
 
 
jentacular dreams
07:56 / 03.03.07
Well in theory yes, but I imagine it's fairly hard to muster the requisite, freewheeling, entrepreneurial spirit if you already owe the bank thousands, ie, if you weren't lucky enough to have parents who were prepared to pick up the tab for college.

AG, you know that the vast majority of students' debts are to the student loans company, with interest pegged to inflation (i.e. 0% in real terms)? And they don't have to start paying them back until they are earning over £15,000 (at which point they normally pay 9% of their income)? Of course top up fees are a different matter and may place additional strain, I'm unsure if the maximum loans offered by the LEAs has been raised to meet the higher fees.
 
 
Feverfew
19:58 / 05.03.07
Flippant comment elicted by enforced listening of K-sounds 'next up' on the bus on day of post. I stand by it though, it obviously doesnt make people undesirable by itself but it seems to strongly resonate with a lot of damaged and hostile people and is a genre native to inner city areas of the UK. I was using music to identify a particular demographic which you may or may not be aware of depending on your location.

I've been away from this thread but I thought I should reply to this particular part - It's not that it's particularly your point of view that I disagree with, metalayer, although I tend to, having read some of the replies here.

It's just that you think that a flippant comment using the c-word - usage of which and the offensiveness of which has been covered in good detail here on Barbelith already - and unashamedly 'othering' an entire subsector of the population because of their musical choice or the fact that their musical choice apparently defines their life, lifestyle and everything in between - and the extrapolation that therefore they must be a c-word - that I took issue with. However, other people have addressed this much better than I would like to, so I'll leave it here.
 
 
Fraser C
14:15 / 19.03.07
This one seems to have veered a bit off track.

What are we doing wrong? Parents have to spend more time with their kids. It's really that simple.

And of course, not that simple. We (those of us in the UK at least) live in a country where most of us are paid poor wages. Long hours are the only way to make ends meet, sometimes 2 jobs.

A lot of the time we spend working is time we should be spending with our children, making them feel loved and protected, introducing them to new experiences and developing their socialising skills.

Some wilfully neglect their children, but a great many thousands do it simply to put food on the table.

I know it’s a daft buzz-phrase, but we’ve failed to achieve an adequate work/life balance in this country and the chickens are coming home to roost.

The sad thing about it is that it’s all in aid of your boss being able to drive around in a slightly fancier tin box. Pretty daft really.
 
  
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