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Nurse! This medium needs more genres, or it's finished!

 
  

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Janean Patience
07:49 / 14.02.07
Why aren't there any pirate comics? Pirates are huge right now. Kids love pirates. Look in any toy store, and you'll see more pirate-themed stuff than could comfortably fit on a dead man's chest. All sparked by the enormous success of Pirates of the Caribbean, of course, and no doubt there are other pirate movies and cartoons coming out, but these things take time.

Comics, in comparison, take a lot less time. Any comics publisher could decide to do a pirate comic now, today, and have it on the shelves before the final Caribbean movie comes out. The perception that comics are for kids would help no end. And it's not just kids who watched the movie. They might find the same difficulties reaching out to adults as ever, but couldn't a pirate comic sell to comics readers? Wouldn't it be worth a try?

Superheroes, the genre that have dominated comics since their inception as a mass medium, have crossed over. The superhero genre now exists in TV and film. Comics have begun, though I'd argue only seriously within the last decade, to expand into other genres. You can now find crime comics, Western comics, fantasy comics. There's a decent amount of sci-fi on the shelves, especially now everything goes to trade and doesn't just vanish. Sandman shows that there's an audience out there, a mainstream audience, waiting for good fantasy comics. And they're a lot cheaper to produce than fantasy films.

But while there are crime comics, they're all of the hard-boiled variety. There's no Inspector Morse or Wexford or Rebis. The fantasy comics are mainly small scale, when if there's any genre that demands sprawl and length it's fantasy. Horror comics are more visceral than psychological. And there's precious little romance on the shelves.

What genres could comics do? What genres could comics do better? How could the medium's unique qualities be exploited for genre fiction?
 
 
Earlier than I thought
08:00 / 14.02.07
Pirates - good. However, I really can't imagine anyone paying for a Morse (style) comic. That's just a personal opinion, I couldn't get through a full episode on the TV. Mind you, Columbo would be a different matter. In fact, now I come to think of it, I NEED to read Columbo as a comic book RIGHT NOW.

Other genres...I can't help but wonder how many other genres are seen in 'mainstream' media. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to rise above. How about something Lynchian? All the other attempts have actually been slotted in to a comic standard (it's David Lynch! With superheroes! Set in the Wild West!) so why not just try and do the comic book equivalent of Mulholland Drive? Psychodrama?

Or we could just improvise a comic that takes three hours to read...
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
09:30 / 14.02.07
dude, ONE PIECE manga! sells like crack, i've heard.

there are some other pirate comics around today, scattered among indie publishers. ever heard of PIRATES OF CONEY ISLAND, SEA OF RED or VAMPIRATES? all different twists on the gene. or try things like EL CAZADOR for a traditional take.

other genres not mentioned in the subject bit: war, romance, porn, abstract, historical, political thriller, espionage etc. all of which are more or less covered in comics - not the ones we're reading...
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
10:31 / 14.02.07
By GOD, I need to get around to starting a BD thread. The non-English Eurocomics tradition has such amazing breadth...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:55 / 14.02.07
I really can't imagine anyone paying for a Morse (style) comic.

'That, Detective Constable Earlier Than I Thought, is the trouble with young people nowadays. Why, when I was a younger man, starting out, a pint of bitter was enough. There was none of all this bloody ecstasy or whatever it's called, and people coming back from the dead and assaulting each other with telephone poles and so on. I feel uncomfortable just thinking about it, Earlier Than I Thought. Back in my day, it was enough to just be a bobby on the beat, you know? But nowadays everyone wants blood'

'Well it's not what I signed up for personally, Inspector. What they do to the kiddies, and so on ...

'Do not get me started on that DC Earlier Than I Thought ... I'm liable to drive the jag into a f***ing pond if you do!'

'Mm. Can I get you another drink, Inspector?'

'Why thank you, Earlier Than I Thought ... Why not?'

'Well I suppose your liver might pack up ... and there is a maniac on the loose'

'Oh f*** off, Earlier Than I Thought. Plenty of time for all that later. Still, you're a good lad. You're. A. Fine. Boy. Big things ahead of you, and so on ... We can kick in some students later, if you like. They think they've got a better car than me, the students ... but no they haven't ... no they definitely do not ... And they don't have a gun ... I have a gun ... One man bloody solution to this town's crimewaves, that's what I am, Earlier Than I Thought ... bloody marvelous ... '

Would be one way of sexing up Morse for the Twenty First century, I guess.
 
 
sleazenation
11:16 / 14.02.07
THe simple answer is that today comics actually do have bredth of genres, but are perhaps still lacking in depth of genres - as has been demonstrated above, there ARE pirate comics, but there are perhaps not that many of them.

Similarly detective/police comics - there ARE some - KANE being my personal favourite, but not hundreds of them.
 
 
Mario
11:18 / 14.02.07
Well, one of the longer-running manga series in Japan is "Detective Conan" (known stateside as Case Closed), which has been published weekly since 1994. So mysteries can sell.

The question isn't what genres comics can do... it's what they CAN'T.
 
 
Janean Patience
11:48 / 14.02.07
Hector: other genres not mentioned in the subject bit: war, romance, porn, abstract, historical, political thriller, espionage etc. all of which are more or less covered in comics - not the ones we're reading...

My opening post was full of inaccurate generalisations. Admitting that now to avoid trouble later. One of which is that I was referring to Anglophone comics more than European comics or manga, both of which are much less dominated by superheroics.

There are pirate comics, evidently. Vampire pirate comics even. I have, now you mention them, heard of a couple of them. They're a step in the right direction without doubt but they're still a fairly obscure few titles in the vastness of a comic shop. Which is kind of my point all around, I guess.

There's crime: Lapham's Stray Bullets or the new Brubaker and Phillips Criminal or Grist's Kane. There's fantasy: Mouse Guard or ElfQuest or that Phil Jiminez series the name of which currently escapes me, was it Otherworld? The Western's currently represented by Jonah Hex and Loveless, Age of Bronze and Berlin are different flavours of historical fiction, Queen & Country is doing espionage... all the genres are represented, near enough, but they're all represented as fringe interests. A couple of titles across twenty years or so.

War comics, horror comics, romance comics used to be mainstream and popular, racked alongside Superman and all the rest. Instead, all the different genres that take up their own sections in bookshops can be racked as non-superhero in Travelling Man. Why are genres that are so dominant in other media only of fringe interest in comics? Why didn't some visionary publisher follow up the huge success of Sandman?
 
 
Janean Patience
11:49 / 14.02.07
sleaze: The simple answer is that today comics actually do have breadth of genres, but are perhaps still lacking in depth of genres.

That's what I was trying to say. Why is this the case?
 
 
This Sunday
12:37 / 14.02.07
There are, as have been pointed out, actually examples of pretty much every genre/setting available in comics, somewhere at a booksellers or toy/card shop with comics lining the back wall near you. There are pirate comics in these shops, and 'One Piece' does do pretty fair business at that. There are also online comics with pirates, including gay pirates, cut-n-pasted sprite pirates, and and so on.

I couldn't give a shit where my comics were written or drawn, so long as I can understand them as they are now in a language I actually read. Why should it bother me that there aren't a lot of proper (genre tics and setting) wuxia novels and films being developed by Americans. Actually, there would be Ang Lee's 'Crouching...' adaptation (that he went to China to do) and that's it. So what? There are, in fact, translations for many films of this genre and they are readily available to many people in the States so that American filmmakers don't have to make them if they don't want to.

Every genre listed here, interestingly enough, has not only at least a handful of readily culled examples from comics the world over, but even American comics. Crime comics? 'Gunsmith Cats' or 'Sin City' or 'Banana Fish' or 'Down'. 'Fake' was romance and comedy and crime. Hell, Warren Ellis alone has got the espionage angle covered pretty decent. Comedy? Last time I checked, the lamest 'Garfield' can be packaged and sell a ton even if its on the Borders discount rack. There are a number of comedy strips that are collected to book form or run multi-panel, and thereby qualify under the McCloud Conventions. Action? 'Red' or 'Blade of the Immortal' would do. Romance? 'Marmalade Boy' or 'Victorian Romance Emma' or 'After School in Shubuya' (available scanlated online from/by Lilicious) or even those copies of 'Young Heroes in Love' of mid-eighties 'X-Men' or ninety-three percent of Peter Milligan's output. Doop could find romance in comics - so can we all. Porn? There's so much damned porn in... oh, wait, not the torntights and Greg Horn covers, but hardcore porn? Doesn't Avatar still make books about spider-demon-nymphos? And Chuck Austen had a junglefevertoplessspeedster comic.

Every time I go to a bookstore these days, it seems like there's a huge selection of comics. Are most of them badly translated and maybe several not that good anyway? Sure, but that last qualifier goes for most of the bookstore in general. There's always lots of crap.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:08 / 14.02.07
I'm still snickering over the idea that manga somehow doesn't "count" in this argument, given that manga's dominance of the comics market. If you're looking at total sales, you'll find that in fact it's superhero comics that are the fringe genre.
 
 
Billuccho!
14:21 / 14.02.07
The American comics industry is probably filled with books of varying genres. We'd just never know because the Big Two dominate the market with a superhero chokehold. They really need to branch out, and maybe overall readership can go up again.

I mean, I've got ideas for a historical crime series, a conspiracy procedural, a "Cannonball Run with houseboats" graphic novel, slice of life stuff, surreal stuff, pope stuff, sci-fi romance stuff... It's not hard to try different genres or ways of telling a story. You'd think it would be, though, from the product the Big Two give us.

Hurray for the little guy.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:00 / 14.02.07
Fear Agent's good as space opera-ish Sci-Fi comics. Actually more like Wally Wood EC Space-Horror, but it's got some solid characterization and examination of the "masculine" heroic ideal with substance abuse.
 
 
matthew.
15:25 / 14.02.07
I'm still snickering over the idea

I'm still snickting over one of the big two.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:09 / 14.02.07
HUGE MEDIA CONGLOMERATES IN "AESTHETICALLY CONSERVATIVE" SHOCKER
 
 
Janean Patience
16:35 / 14.02.07
Huge media conglomerates not chasing dollar shocker?

Sandman built up a huge audience fairly early on in its run. The comics were selling to comics fans and the trades were selling to people who didn't much read comics and didn't really care for comics. Neil Gaiman became "bestselling author Neil Gaiman" because of his comic and the unique blend of horror, fantasy, and self-consciously quirky modernity within. I can't offer proof, but I've always thought much of its audience must previously have been fans of fantasy fiction because the business model works for them. These are people used to buying multiple volumes of a rambling saga, as opposed to literary readers who want the whole thing over in one hit.

Anyway. Sandman finishes. The audience for a fantasy comic has been proven to exist. What's poised to replace it? The Dreaming. A follow-up within the same universe with different writers. Following the comics model, in other words, where a successful series continues with the same characters, ever-changing creative teams and diminishing returns. The business opportunity, the hundreds of thousands of fans who'd buy something like Sandman, has been spurned in favour of catering to the closed and small comics market.

Huge media conglomerates failing to take advantage of new market shocker? Comics publishers "set in ways" blasts internet critic?
 
 
This Sunday
19:31 / 14.02.07
But since the 'Sandman' characters are DC-owned, the company has released a host of spin-offs, sequels, retellings and companion merchandise. So, 'Sandman' isn't a great example... especially since, if it's fantasy you're after (buying for a moment that superheroes aren't fantasy) there would also be 'The Invisibles' and 'ElfQuest' and a variety of CLAMP series. 'Lady Death' even. Or, er... 'Tellos'! 'Moorcock's Multiverse' featuring a host of pretty cool artists.

If it's the meta-commentary and retelling angle: 'Planetary' and 'The World Exists for Me' (formerly, 'History of S&M') do that.

Sexy lanky pale dudes being mysterious and cutely inept? There is usually at least one to five of these per shoujo comic with a gay character. They have rock bands. They work as hosts at fetish clubs. They rescue Miaka every time she gets in trouble all throughout 'Fushigi Yugi'.

And, really, 'Sandman' isn't the marketing node that Gaiman is. People followed Neil Gaiman, not borrowed 'House of Mystery' characters.
 
 
sleazenation
22:55 / 14.02.07
Sandman built up a huge audience fairly early on in its run

At its height Sandman was only selling around 65,000 a month and was in the bottom half of the top 100 selling books.

That ain't saying that Sandman didn't build up a significant audience on the monthly title, particularly with a market was less diverse than it is today, but it was never 'huge' - The trade sales and the potential to grow new audiences were the main interest.

The Dreaming as a follow-up to the sandman - I believe it is a matter of record that Gaiman acknowledged that he didn't own Sandman, but he did say something along the lines that if DC used the sandman he created without consultation he would never work from them again.

The Dreaming was as close to a Sandman cash in as DC could get without severing their ties with the golden goose that laid the product that they are still making money off in trades. And the trades are the game as far as DC's longterm plan goes.

Comics are increasingly the loss-leader for the trades, just as DC is a loss leader for Time-Warner - the publishing schedule isn't anywhere near as important to Time Warner as the intellectual property that can be exploited in more lucrative media.

Meanwhile, post-Sandman, Vertigo diversified, comissioning a variety of different projects with an eye to growing a library of titles and intellectual properties that would gain critical acclaim and sell beyond the shelf-life of your standard comic book, or maybe even nurture talent that would eventually produce product that would sell big. And the graphic novel market is much larger now than back when Sandman was first collected. Graphic novels are medium that is still growing and maturing.

breadth is here, but it took at least 20-30 years to arrive, I think that while it's likely that we will have to wait a while for depth to arrive, it is something that will come with time...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:30 / 15.02.07
At its height Sandman was only selling around 65,000 a month and was in the bottom half of the top 100 selling books.

Well yes, but according to George Morrissey, Neil Gaiman did get the opportunity to 'knock boots' with Tori Amos during his salad years as a scribe for The Prince Of Stories.

There are probably two ways of looking at the alleged situation, in terms of artistes being rewarded for their work, by means other than sales.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:54 / 15.02.07
Decrescent: If it's fantasy you're after (buying for a moment that superheroes aren't fantasy) there would also be 'The Invisibles' and 'ElfQuest' and a variety of CLAMP series. 'Lady Death' even. Or, er... 'Tellos'! 'Moorcock's Multiverse' featuring a host of pretty cool artists.

'Sandman' isn't the marketing node that Gaiman is. People followed Neil Gaiman, not borrowed 'House of Mystery' characters.


When I refer to fantasy, I'm referring to dragons, quests, swords and sorcery, elves, pixies, fairies, giants from storybooks. Not just anything with fantastical elements. It's a well-established literary genre as seen in any bookshop, catering to a peculiar nostalgia for the days of kings and the myths and legends of that era. Sandman managed to update the common forms of the genre, giving us old gods working as travel agents or strippers and fairy servants with nothing to do. Fantasy with some sophistication. I actually thought the sales were higher than they apparently were in singles but it was a hit in trades whatever.

DC had a mainstream fantasy success on their hands. They knew it, which is why there have been so many statues and t-shirts and other merchandise. They had established there was a mainstream market for fantasy comics. The follow-up? Nothing, or nothing that was aimed at the mainstream. Any comics company could have tried to get an existing fantasy author with some marquee value to produce a comic, or to persuade a decent writer or writer/artist from comics to produce something in the genre that could be marketed to Sandman or Gaiman fans. Instead of any recognition that fantasy and comics could make money, and here was a genre that could sell comics in bookstores, DC created a new series using the same characters and other comics companies did... nothing much, as far as I'm aware. Fables is the only (again, Anglophone) comic I can think of that's by someone of skill that would go over with the same market. Lady Death caters to a very different kind of fantasy. And The Invisibles? Look around you, dude. That's about the real world.

By analogy, it reminds me of a section in William Goldman's Adventures In The Screen Trade where a movie producer, unable to explain the success of On Golden Pond through either big box-office names or it being a sequel to a hit or it being from a traditionally successful genre, labelled it a "non-recurring phenomenon." Which meant that he didn't have to think about who was going to see this movie that didn't fit any comfortable pigeonholes. It seems to me the situation is the same for comics; mainstream success is a "non-recurring phenomenon" and not to be thought about in any way. I'd also argue that genre fiction, which already has an audience in fiction, could be a key to the mainstream success of comics. Look at what's happening with The Dark Tower - fantasy - right now.

sleaze: Post-Sandman, Vertigo diversified, comissioning a variety of different projects with an eye to growing a library of titles and intellectual properties that would gain critical acclaim and sell beyond the shelf-life of your standard comic book, or maybe even nurture talent that would eventually produce product that would sell big.

I have nothing but admiration for Karen Berger's repositioning of Vertigo from an imprint that recycled old, abandoned DC characters to an imprint which publishes creator-owned series for mature readers, as they used to say. It was an incredibly intelligent move and was done with an eye on the bookstores, creating limited series (no matter how long) by motivated creative teams which would sell as trades in the long-term. Vertigo now contains genre fiction. It could launch an ongoing pirate title, no worries. But that still means genres which are incredibly popular in books or movies are on a fringe imprint or go to independent publishers in comics, while the biggest publishers focus on the superheroic medium almost exclusively.

Decrescent: There are, as have been pointed out, actually examples of pretty much every genre/setting available in comics, somewhere at a booksellers or toy/card shop with comics lining the back wall near you.

You can seek and find every genre you want to in comics. Sometimes you have to do a lot of seeking. What happened to the genres that used to be big and now aren't? Why are genre comics a fringe interest within the medium?
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
10:35 / 15.02.07
understood, janean

damn, i miss warren ellis' artbomb recommendations site.
 
 
Janean Patience
10:48 / 15.02.07
Warren Ellis, for all his faults, is someone who has seriously tried to explore genre in comics...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:10 / 15.02.07
Absolutely. Superheroes or secret agents with superpowers.

I'm not sure how you're defining fantasy, Janean, if the Sandman (cars, guns, modern day setting) is - rereading the Sandman tends to reveal how surprisingly geeky a lot of it is, at least until Gaiman gets to calm down and stop using the Justice League. You can generally tell when he was late on a deadline, because that's when the one-shot about Element Girl apppears. In terms of picking up on the success of The Sandman, the Dreaming was clearly the first, unsuccessful attempt. The House of Secrets again sought to cover similar ground. Then there was Lucifer, again sharing an aesthetic and some characters with Sandman, and now the same profoundly irritating "but what if the Big Bad wolf was a down-at-heel gumshoe, protecting the little pigs from a serial killer? sort of conceit that Gaiman specialises in. There's a continuing campaign to get at the same audience, which is presumably seen to be big enough to support one running title, although Lucifer and Fables ran alongside each other. And there was that ill-fated dragonriders of the Western Front thing from Image, covering very similar territory. Oh, and Charm School, but that was a bit of a different beast.

Also, of course, Helix (a DC imprint) did pretty much exactly what you suggested above with the Michael Moorcock's Multiverse comic - I don't know how well that did, but the line collapsed fairly quickly. Perhaps because people who wanted to read fantasy were already being served by fantasy prose novels and by fantastic manga like the CLAMP studios output.

Sooo... Possibly the reason why mainstream comics from the larger publishers tend not to stray too far from certain genres is that you need to be in a comic shop to buy them in the first place. The Dark Tower comics might be a good example there - the people who will buy them will, I imagine, mainly be the subset of Steven King fans who regularly buy comics... is there a breakout market?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:05 / 15.02.07
Football would seem like an obvious choice.

and I beleive a 'fan' picked up the rights for roy of the rovers recently.

for about 170 quid.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:42 / 16.02.07
Haus: I'm not sure how you're defining fantasy, Janean, if the Sandman (cars, guns, modern day setting) is - rereading the Sandman tends to reveal how surprisingly geeky a lot of it is, at least until Gaiman gets to calm down and stop using the Justice League.

Yeah, the first ten issues or so are a) more a horror comic than anything else and b) beside themselves with excitement at the opportunity to play with the DC universe's toys, closely following in the footsteps of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. After the Element Girl issue IIRC we're dealing more with nods to the DC universe, stuff that you don't have to get but that's fun if you do. I'd call the comic fantasy then because of the many fantasy elements it includes. Fairies, castles, gryphons, werewolves, demons, immortals, angels, the machinations of various gods. Gaiman's trick, now much-repeated, is to mix all that in a with modern-day setting and cars and guns. It's not The Belgariad but I'd call it fantasy more than anything else, just like Moore's Swamp Thing included tropes from many other genres but remained a horror comic.

In terms of picking up on the success of The Sandman, the Dreaming was clearly the first, unsuccessful attempt. The House of Secrets again sought to cover similar ground. Then there was Lucifer, again sharing an aesthetic and some characters with Sandman, and now the same profoundly irritating "but what if the Big Bad wolf was a down-at-heel gumshoe, protecting the little pigs from a serial killer? sort of conceit that Gaiman specialises in. There's a continuing campaign to get at the same audience, which is presumably seen to be big enough to support one running title, although Lucifer and Fables ran alongside each other.

DC certainly continued making money from Sandman within the comics market, and the Gaiman-blessed spin-offs will no doubt continue. They're more like the various attempts to extract more cash from fans of Claremont's X-Men - new titles with the same characters, miniseries with the same characters. From what I know about sales figures, and I'm no expert, they've only been reasonably successful at milking more money from comics fans. In contrast when Gaiman comes back to do Endless Nights it makes the bestseller list of the New York Times. We could label Gaiman and Sandman as a non-recurring phenomenon, and say people who wanted to read fantasy were already being served by fantasy prose novels and by fantastic manga but it seems to me that if a fantasy audience is willing to read one comic, they'd be willing to read another.

This is the importance of genre fiction to comics, IMHO. Compare: "Want to read a comic?" "No thanks, I don't read comics." with "Hey, you like sci-fi, don't you? Check this out, it's like William Gibson." "Heavy Liquid? Okay, but it better be good." People like to read things they're familiar with. If they like the crime genre, they'll be more likely to read a crime comic. If they worship George Romero they're more likely to try The Walking Dead. My gay aunties haven't ever read no comics but they were keen on Alison Bechdel's Fun Home last time I saw them.

Possibly the reason why mainstream comics from the larger publishers tend not to stray too far from certain genres is that you need to be in a comic shop to buy them in the first place. The Dark Tower comics might be a good example there - the people who will buy them will, I imagine, mainly be the subset of Steven King fans who regularly buy comics... is there a breakout market?

Right now the Dark Tower comic is primarily being bought by comics fans or at least people who've bought them before. The percentage who bought it and have never set foot in a comic shop before is, I'd guess, miniscule. When it's collected into a trade and appears in a bookstore, the likelihood is that Dark Tower readers who've never bought a comic before will be tempted to buy it because it's Dark Tower, and they like Dark Tower. That could be a breakout market. Of course, that depends on the comic in question being any good. It would help if the Stephen King element of it wasn't being so heavily diluted.
 
 
Mario
11:15 / 16.02.07
I don't think a comic based around traditional singles will ever really break the barrier, because it requires a totally different kind of investment from the reader.

How many prose readers do you know would be willing to check out a new author if the books were only released a chapter at a time, a month or so apart?

(And yes, I know this has been done as an experiment... but it seems to have fizzled)

If you want to expand the market into new genres, I'm pretty sure OGN is the best way to go.
 
 
Janean Patience
11:46 / 16.02.07
If you want to expand the market into new genres, I'm pretty sure OGN is the best way to go.

I can't see the difference to a casual buyer between a OGN and a collected trade myself...
 
 
Spaniel
11:55 / 16.02.07
Well, I suppose collected trades might put people who are aware of their serialized origins off, as a consequence of serialized comics conforming to particular modes of story-telling. Seems a bit implausible though.
 
 
Janean Patience
12:00 / 16.02.07
The hypothetical opposite of "written for the trade".

"Don't buy that All-Star Superman collection. It's totally written for the singles."
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
13:34 / 16.02.07
Gaiman's trick, now much-repeated, is to mix all that in a with modern-day setting and cars and guns. It's not The Belgariad but I'd call it fantasy more than anything else, just like Moore's Swamp Thing included tropes from many other genres but remained a horror comic.

I believe the term is Urban (or mundane?) Fantasy, and is the cornerstoned by Charles De Lint and his ilk. I'd argue that Sandman is only horror until the mythology has had time to set itself up and then it becomes urban fantasy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:59 / 16.02.07
Thinking of the initial issue - why there are so few pirate comics when pirates are huge... could lead times have something to do with it? I mean, if we're looking at the big two, they are always out of date - Chris Claremont's Dazzler was a long time after disco had had its floruit, and don't get me started on Vibe... which I can see as a combination of factors, but especially the long time it takes to go from concept to first solicitation, and also that there are so few people in charge of what gets done - how many senior editorial staff are there making decisions about the comics that take up maybe 90% of the shelf space of the average comic store (DC, Marvel, Image) and how does that compare with movies, TV or books? - so a degree of encrustation might occur. So, by the time something has gone from solicitation to commission to release, the cultural moment has passed and there isn't really anything to build on?

Just a thought... please gut it and fillet it.
 
 
Mario
15:40 / 16.02.07
I can't see the difference to a casual buyer between a OGN and a collected trade myself...

To the buyer? Assuming a self-contained story, there is none. But to the publisher... with an OGN, you don't have to waste time and money printing the individual issues first.
 
 
Mario
15:45 / 16.02.07
Sandman is a weird mix of urban horror and epic fantasy with some historical tales thrown in.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
17:19 / 16.02.07
what about the sandman genre? comics could embrace that.

hope not tho, cos

sand

man

is

shit.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:14 / 16.02.07
Yawn, dude, the point is that Sandman is a good example of a non-superhero genre book that did well, especially outside of traditionally comic-oriented demographics. Not its merits, in this particular discussion.

Weren't there some pirate comics out recently? I seem to remember something about that.
 
  

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