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Art is the enemy

 
 
No star here laces
21:10 / 26.06.01
Um, that's art in the broad sense, not as in visual arts really, but this poor little forum is neglected somewhat, so I thought I'd put this here.

quote:From Stewart Home's 'The Assault on Culture'
Art has taken over the function of religion, not simply as the ultimate - and ultimately unknowable - form of knowledge, but also as a legitimated form of male emotionality. The 'male' artist is treated as a 'genius' for expressing feelings that are 'traditionally' considered 'feminine'. 'He' constructs a world in which the male is heroicised by displaying 'female' traits; and the female is reduced to an insipid subordinate role. (ed: this point also made by Valerie Solanas in 'SCUM Manifesto') 'Bohemia' is colonised by bourgeois men - a few of whom are 'poessessed by genius', the majority of whom are 'eccentric'. Bourgeois wimmin whose behaviour resembles that of the 'male genius' are dismissed as being 'hysterical' - while proletarians of either sex who behave in such a manner are simply branded as 'mental'. Art, in both practice and content is class and gender specific. Although its apologists claim 'art' is a 'universal category', this simply isn't true. Every survey of attendances at art galleries and museums demonstrates that an 'appreciation' of 'art' is something restricted almost exclusively to individuals belonging to higher income groups.


Fuckin' A, say I, this expresses very eloquently my main problem with art. So come all ye apologists and give me all ya got.

[ 27-06-2001: Message edited by: Mecca the Soul Brother ]
 
 
Saveloy
21:33 / 26.06.01
Your fighting stance makes me want to disagree, but my only criticism of that post is the title you gave it. As a criticism of the dominant culture that has built up arround art, yeah, mostly spot on. Most bloody artists themselves have a problem with that. But that doesn't make art itself the enemy.

But yeah, I've always been annoyed by the concept of genius in particular as this kind of 'mystical' thing which certain blessed individuals are born with.
 
 
Jason 08
18:46 / 28.06.01
quote:I've always been annoyed by the concept of genius in particular as this kind of 'mystical' thing which certain blessed individuals are born with.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT! Being an artist myself (although I preffer to be called a Dadaist Witch) I know I am not possed of genius in anyway. Anyone can make art! And I'm not mystical!
 
 
SMS
07:15 / 01.07.01
Art and religion don't necessarily separate into two entities. There can be much mixing and ambiguity between the two. Also, deep religious experience can inspire art. I have never had a deeply religious experience, and could easily look upon someone who has as having a different insight for having had one (or several).

The ability to create great art that can really move a lot of people is not something just anybody can do. Anyone who can do this, I would consider to be an artistic genius. This seems to be wholly rational and justified.

I don't follow the art community, and so I have not noticed a lack of appreciation for female artists. I would have guessed that some art appealed more to women, and some more to men, and many equally to both genders. I would not have thought that the sex of the artist, however, would even be considered before passing judgement on the pieces themselves. If this is not the case, it's pretty damned stupid of them. What an excuse to dismiss something you may love!

The class business makes sense to me. Different classes have different concerns, and therefore different forms of art ought to appeal to each of them. Of course, this would only be a tendency, and never an absolute. Information on this might tell us what a particular culture values, but never an individual. I would have thought that people of lower income might have less time than people of higher income, and would not be able to spend the remaining time on art. Upon consideration, however, this may very well not be the case. The rich often work long hours of the day, and a low income family might work a 40 hr or so week.

But. I have a question. How much does the prospect of owning the art play into appreciation of it? I mean, if you plan to collect art, you would probably be more likely to pay attention to all the trends, the history of it, very particular artists, and so on. If you don't make very much money, though, you can't collect. Artists can't simply lower their prices, considering the time they put into their work combined with the cost of materials.

So, it would make sense, if you make less money, to look for expressions of art that appeal to you, and are affordable. This could be found in any of the various forms of entertainment.

Now, is this wrong? I personally don't think so. But then again, the charges laid against the art community are very vague, so it may be that I'm missing the point entirely.
 
 
deletia
18:46 / 01.07.01
Hey, Matthew, big love for you, but I think you're slightly off-key (although, you know, wholly valid) in your perceptions of what you are responding to.

Near as this humble footsoldier of hope can tell, my brother Mecca is drawing attention in his quote to three separate threads of debate.

1) Art and gender
2) Art and class
3) The concept of genius

The first point is that men are traditionally indulged in behaving in eccentric ways and still held up as artists - Richard Dadd might be a good example of this one, or indeed William Blake, whose belief that he was in constant spiritual communion with the spirit of his dead brother, his tendency to hang around naked and his complex, unchristian theology might well have been considered signs of simple madness in a woman of the time are instead taken as proofs of his remarkable vision. A contemporary example (and, hey, so many of you cats know far more about modern art than I do) might be Tracey Emin, who is often decried as an emotionally unstable, dangerous lunatic for her art and her behaviour when, say, Marc Quinn (who freezes his own bodily fluids) or Damien Hirst (who actively seeks out the company of Alex James and Keith Allen) are just held up as either fraudsters or visionaries, depending on what you think of their art, but never dangerous lunatics. I mean, Gilbert and George? Two elderly men who never leave each other's sides and are into shit, piss and dystopian buttocks? Pretty crazy scene, but people talk about presentation or self-creation as art rather than being an insane pair of frustrated smallholders with a lunatic fixation on bodily functions.

2) Is basically the same argument - that ideas of art favour the middle classes. This may partly be because they exist in a peer group which indulges them (and should the working class become more tolerant, or the middle class less so?), but also, I guess Home is arguing, because the allowances for abnormal behaviour are broader among the bourgeois. So it's OK to paint your arse blue as long as you have been to art college first. It might be interesting to compare and contrast middle-class and working-class artists (if one is allowed to remain middle-class when being an artist), to see whether the latter are more hard-nosed and non-eccentric. Hmmmm...

3) I think the question here revolves around the nature of artistic creation. IIRC, Byron and the English romantics often spoke of creation as something which moved through them, "genius" as a transcendent quality which they acted as a lightning rod for - the classic example being Coleridge maintaining against all the odds that he knocked down Kublai Khan in a trice after being visited by inspiration in a dream, and would have written more at the same clip if he had not been interrupted.

Goethe, conversely (and stop me if I'm getting all confused), spoke of creation as a process of gestation. But in a sense this is a similarly individualistic view - alone among males, artists are able to hold the seed of inspiration in their bellies and "bring it to term" - a response to their inability to produce children? Hey, children - aren't they just the coolest little people? And so wise...

Sorry, got distracted. Anyhow, these ideas of genius, of an operating spirit unique to certain individuals, can be seen as elitist in the extreme, allowing those who are decided to have it to pull up the ladder under them, and also allowing them to behave badly or madly or dangerously to know and then claim that their possession of genius demands that they be judged differently to others, say women and members of the working classes, who cannot be seen as having access to this quality.

Another way to look at it might be that art is a skill or craft like many others. Some people are diposed by nature or nurture to be better at it just as some are better at maths or football, and some of those will, with time and practise, produce really good stuff. There could be child prodigies, just as Michael Owen became a top footballer earlier in his career than Bobby Charlton, but they may just be showing their aptitude much earlier. But there is nothing intrinsically magical about this, or anything intrinsically male or intrinsically middle-class, except that as a class, middle-class men have traditionally had more time and been more indulged than many other groups.

Oh, and it's a fairly major assumption to assume that the purpose of art, and thus the quality of artistic genius, lies in its ability to move people. And, when you assume, you make an ASS of U and ME...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:05 / 09.01.05
So "male eccentric middle class" artists are seen as geniuses, where as the female/poor equivalent are not, and this is bad. My question is *who*, exactly, goes around saying that, for example, Tracey Emin is fucked up whilst Gilbert and George are transcendant? *Who* is making these generalisations?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:11 / 10.01.05
Oh God. I feel dirty.

Well, who indeed? Consumers of art? Commentators on art? Brian Sewell? Emin, I think is interesting because of her relationship both to conceptual art and to _craft_ - it might be worth looking at Grayson Perry as a comparison point...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:36 / 10.01.05
S Home spends too much time in the boozer, IMHO.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:14 / 11.01.05
My question is *who*, exactly, goes around saying that, for example, Tracey Emin is fucked up whilst Gilbert and George are transcendant? *Who* is making these generalisations?

That's a complicated question because no one really knows where these culturally inherent ideas come from. We know to an extent that the tabloid media backs them up, that Emin's far likely to have an insulting article published about her in a magazine aimed at young men, or the conservative middle classes than anywhere else. Perhaps these claims, this type of character assassination has money as the driving force behind it, that and a need to belittle women who own something masculine- it's the same as the headlines in the broadsheets every time GCSE results come out: girls are doing better than boys, quick we have to find a way to make men win.

Who do you think is making these generalisations?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:51 / 11.01.05
Vaguely Margery We know to an extent that the tabloid media backs them up, that Emin's far likely to have an insulting article published about her in a magazine aimed at young men,

Because Loaded loves to do gatefold article on two middle-aged gay men who do portraits of themselves naked. I'm not so sure of a gender-bias when it comes to popular reaction to modern art, Hirst with the shark and and the brothers Chapman with their altered dummies of children got much the same response as Emin's tent, or bed or whatever. And the only work of art to be deliberately attacked was the Myra Hindley portrait, by a guy...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:26 / 13.01.05
Emin as a person is attacked by the media far more often than those other artists, however. She drinks, she sleeps around, she's a bit lippy: BURN TEH WICTH.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:34 / 13.01.05
"Emin as a person is attacked by the media far more often than those other artists, however."

This is definately true, especially in the tabloids. It's that old knee jerk reaction, firstly to "Artist Does Something We don't Understand" and probably equally importantly "Artist In Question Is A Woman". The reaction? Attack her personality.

This is certainly an interesting thread- you know I had never wondered about the fact that within modern art men get more respect than women. It's blatantly true when you think about it.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:52 / 13.01.05
Equally though, with the possible exception of Damien Hirst, Tracey Emin has, I'd say, what's far and away the most recognisable profile in modern British art, and I'm not all that sure if she'd have it any differently. She doesn't exactly play down her 'mad' public image, let's put it that way, any more than the likes of Salvador Dali ever did. No reason why she should do of course, but I think it would be a bit unreasonable to suggest that she doesn't know exactly what she's up to, in terms of baiting The Mail, etc, and raking the cash in as a result. And it's not as if she's in any real danger of being locked away anywhere, or in fact, of facing anything much more threatening than a heavy credit card bill from Harvey Nicks or related. Which is again fair enough, but hardly the lot of a victimised individual, who'd be very much happier if the bad press would just stop.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:47 / 21.06.05
To approach this thread from another angle and resurrect it I wanted to bring this up historically. I can't think of many modernist female artists, Barbara Hepworth perhaps but predominantly they're all men. In this country Russian avant garde art was considered primarily through male artists- Malevich and Rodchenko but a few years ago the Royal Academy and Guggenheim both ran the Amazons of the Avant Garde exhibition, finally giving female artists like Goncharova recognition that hadn't been prominent in western society. Probably because traditional forms of art have always been regarded as male.

Has anyone else got any thoughts on this from a historical or current perspective?
 
 
skolld
02:35 / 21.06.05
i can think of many female artists that have gained credibility on par with men, Sherman, Abromivich (sp?), Khalo, O'keefe, Nevelson, Shapiro, and Hesse.
But overall men have had more coverage. I think in part due to society, but i also think a lot of 'female' art got relegated to political during the rise of feminism in the 60's and 70's. I believe that diminished its appeal as high art.
I think today it's becoming more equal but we definitely aren't there yet. There's still a concept of 'women's' art. Textiles, jewelry and metals still don't hold the same weight in galleries as painting and sculpture.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:41 / 21.06.05
Reasons why the art world is dominated by men? Well, western art from about 300 AD onwards was concerned with the christian religion, catholic or orthodox, to the exclusion of pretty much all else. As religion was dominated by a male priesthood, and the crafts used in the visual arts were also the preserve of men, so the arts were dominated by men.

The Avant-Garde movements challenged their society, but even so they weren't neccesarily pro-female. There was only one female Dada- Hannah Hoch- and a handful of female surrealists, although Meret Openheim created one of the most famous images in modern art, the fur covered tea-cup.

In fact much of the sexual "challenge" to orthodox bourgoise society presented by the Fururists, Dada and Surrealists was not in terms of criticising the male's sexual power but by making images that were blatantly and shockingly "crude"/sexual- and often showed women as a victim or fetish.

You could argue that these images showed the sexual violence and power differential that was hidden in society's mechanics (religion, marriage, politics etc), but for much of the Futurist, Dada and Surrealist ouvere you simply can't argue that they present an unambiguous feminist viewpoint, apart from rare examples such as Openheim mentioned above.

That's as far as I can get up to whilst being confident I'm not inadvertently bullshitting, hope it makes sense.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:45 / 21.06.05
Just to clarify, as revolutionaries, many of the actual artists (in Dada etc) who made these works shared simmilar views to us, and probably were against sexism. Of course we can't be sure without talking to them, but I don't want to give the impression that they were all dirty old men.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:59 / 21.06.05
It sho' is an interesting question. I seem to remember reading some article (possibly in the TLS) about how male poets are feted for expressing "feminine" emotions/responses, writing about love and loss and so on, because to demonstrate or admit such human weakness argues both strength and sensitivity in classic New Age Male fashion (and boy do they play it up).

If, however, a female poet writes about love or grief or joy or wistfulness, it's just typical girly drippiness and should be consigned to the same locker of Room 101 as Joyce Kilmer's "Trees". And if they write on "masculine" subjects (like, I dunno, war or violence or football) they don't know what they're talking about and should be led quietly away to the Ladies' Drawing Room and given a nice cup of tea until they calm down and remember their place.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:50 / 21.06.05
i can think of many female artists that have gained credibility on par with men, Sherman, Abromivich (sp?), Khalo, O'keefe, Nevelson, Shapiro, and Hesse.

Yes they have gained credibility but Kahlo is a classic example of someone who only really acheived proper recognition after she died. O'Keefe gained credibility through Steiglitz (a man)... I could go on.
 
 
skolld
14:57 / 21.06.05
A serious question, and not meant to bait.

Does the fact that the majority of 'famous' artists are men detract from their importance? Does it change the validity of the work they were (or are)doing?

I ask because Dada sought to break down the barriers constructed through language, and i think that we continue to stumble over words like masculine/feminine, sexist, male dominated, etc.
I'm not saying that there aren't issues that need addressed but is it possible to adress some of them by negating the language that creates the walls to constructive dialog?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:39 / 21.06.05
i think that we continue to stumble over words like masculine/feminine, sexist, male dominated, etc.

Well, I think we need to use words like "male dominated" and "sexist" to describe certain things. Otherwise we're stuck with a nameless enemy, the worst kind. Consider that a sexist most likely wouldn't ever say "I am a sexist"; they would see their attitudes as normal.

I do see though that "the establishment" has started to use these words against the progressives, so that now, by calling someone sexist or racist, you are being a "PC crusader", essentially turning "our" descriptive words into restrictive words, making "us" seem like the freedom-haters. I feel this is a matter for another thread though.

Does the fact that the majority of 'famous' artists are men detract from their importance? Does it change the validity of the work they were (or are)doing?

Belonging to a gender doesn't make an indivual artist's work less valid. However, I would say that yes, the canon of western art as a whole, by being largely male dominated, fails to fully represent women's views, and thus it's validity is compromised- that is, if we assume that the canon's validity is based on it's ability to express both the male and the female.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:17 / 21.06.05
I don't think that the question of the importance of men's work is in anyway effected by the supression of women's art, it's only the lauding of their work over that done by women that is a problem. The supression of the female artist has a lot of factors all cultural but is mostly emphasised by the lack of freedom that women had to make art and the inability to be noticed as artists. So no I don't think the validity of their work is effected.

I ask because Dada sought to break down the barriers constructed through language, and i think that we continue to stumble over words like masculine/feminine, sexist, male dominated, etc.
I'm not saying that there aren't issues that need addressed but is it possible to adress some of them by negating the language that creates the walls to constructive dialog?


In what way do you think those words are stumbled over?

I think the issues are beginning to be addressed by the acceptance of more female artists. Historically I think it needs to be examined more closely- I would like to see closer work on the issue of acceptance with regards to female artists from other cultures that were less inclined to exclude women from art. And particularly the reaction by countries like Britain towards their art and exhibitions.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:23 / 22.06.05
I would like to see closer work on the issue of acceptance with regards to female artists from other cultures that were less inclined to exclude women from art. And particularly the reaction by countries like Britain towards their art and exhibitions.

In a lot of other (non-european) cultures though, there isn't such a thing as an artist. This might take some explaining. In other (non-european) cultures, "art" and "crafts" are a lot less further away from eachother than we have them. This is a generalisation, I know, but there is less of an academy (And obviously this is historical: nearly every country now has an art scene simmilar to ours).

Example: for us, a painting by Bacon is something totally separate from a tea-cosy or jersey knitted by an elderly lady. One is labelled "art", the other "craft"; one is for the sheer purpose of looking at, the other is a tool or garment.

Whereas for example, within that huge, undefinable area that I will label "Traditional Pre-Colonial African Art", what we identify as a peice of artwork- say, for example, a statue- carries significance beyond "this is a work of art to be looked at"; it's a status symbol, a tool for ancestor contact, and generally has wide community importance and purpose. Within this framework, textiles, statuary, jewelery, weapons, and architecture all carry the same level of merit. They are all equally considered "art" and yet none of them are "art", they all exist for a purpose other than being experienced- though of course an immense amount of skill and consideration has gone into the aesthetics of their construction.

Which brings me on to say that in a lot of cultures there isn't an "artist", there's an "artisan" or "craftsperson", and thus there isn't really such a thing as a "female artist" or "male artist". If that makes sense.

What there tends to be is a divergence between the crafts run by men and the ones run by women (moving onto general statements here, not just Africa). Men: metals, weaponry; women: textiles, jewelery.

Does this make sense? I'm trying to find a point where the western "artist" meets the non-western "craftsperson" so we can make the comparison you talk about.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:32 / 22.06.05
I was really talking about Eastern cultures rather than that moment in non-European history when the artist stops existing.

Men: metals, weaponry; women: textiles, jewelery.

You know that in Britain all of these things have been traditionally made by men right? Silversmiths and tailors for example were always men. Only peasant's clothes were made by women and even then they always worked under a man's authority. Do you have evidence to suggest it was otherwise in other countries?
 
 
skolld
15:31 / 22.06.05
In what way do you think those words are stumbled over?

I mean that, critics, writers, politicians, and artists sometimes use these words and phrases as a form of rhetoric and never intend to create valid arguments. Not saying this is always the case but because of their widespread use, a term's meaning can become ambiguous or watered down.
Legba i think made a similar point in his response.
I believe we still need these terms, i just feel that they need to be used with more thought behind them.
 
 
mucho maas
16:14 / 22.06.05
I would say Sherman gets serious amounts of respect, actually. I'd say clearly there still in bias, but things may be slowly changing.

As for Emin, I think her art sometimes turns the question on its head by making fun of the "woman who drinks and sleeps around must be evil" idea. More power to her.

Incidentally, Gilbert and George were quoted in the Guardian recently as having made up with Emin (they're neighbours, apparently) - they clarified that they never called her a slag, only a "super slag".
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:25 / 22.06.05
Do you have evidence to suggest it was otherwise in other countries?

Not that I can cite or link to, sorry. Just general reading I've done which I can see doesn't support much, but it wasn't a spurious statement. If I wasn't as sure of it as I am I wouldn't have posted it. I'm convinced that women created a lot of African textiles, same in Russia.

Eastern countries, you say? That's an easier comparison because there's certainly a history of court artists in China and Japan which is almost contemporaneous with the western equivalent. That doesn't mean to say I know enough about this, so I will go and look things up.
 
  
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