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Lester bangs

 
 
Char Aina
15:22 / 26.01.07
i was going to start thread over in the music about music writing, hoping to find out about folks' favourites. i wanted to talk about the difficulties encountered when writing about music, the ways some of the greats got past them, and the way they managed to sing us the songs of their age with a page of prose.

i was going to use lester bangs as the jump-off for that, what with him being the most namechecked journalist of the genre and all.

but hey, then in my research i read this, and i broke my rose tinted aviators.

i don't know about you, but i had always thought he was a fairly right on geezer. i have read a little of his stuff and, while i found it a bit self indulgent, i always quite liked it. maybe i havent read enough.

but hey.

I ramble because I don't want to get to the point. Why I don't want to get to the point is that I am moving to this city and I don't wanna cross the (at least rock – although I'm sure and you KNOW it extends even more strongly through theatre, the art world, etc.) rock culture FAGGOT MAFIA which exists in this town, N.Y.C., right now, and makes its presence known every day in so many thousand ways that upon reading this article they may not even bother to say no but may smile and sit back and say, "Sure it's true, dumbo, what're you gonna do about it?"

has anyone else got any lester views to share? was he as much of a drug-addled arse as that article makes him seem?

does anyone have any music writers to recommend who arent so gonzo they end up bozo?
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
15:48 / 26.01.07
Lester Bang`s merits or otherwise aside for a moment, shouldn`t this thread still go in Music? It is obviously about someone who is connected intimately with writing about music, and the secondary request for recommendations of other music writers of note is also concerned with music too.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:03 / 26.01.07
has anyone else got any lester views to share?

yeah.

but maybe my answers would only lead to more questions, i don't know
who was lester bangs really?

it seems as if he was a writer of music journalism who aspired to be one of the greats, like allen ginsberg

but, oh no! his vocation was addled by lager, maybe.

is lester bangs one of those people about which it's possible to say that if he hadn't existed, god wouldn't have felt the need to invent him?

but then again maybe there isn't a god.

maybe there isn't a god

in which case lester should have written a novel, I guess.

oh well.
 
 
Char Aina
16:13 / 26.01.07
lager addled, yeah?
i thought it was cough syrup
and drug addiction.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:20 / 26.01.07
i gather it was the booze that filled him in, in the end.

but it is a drug though, alcohol.
'socially acceptable' etc,

but

Why?
 
 
Jack Fear
16:44 / 26.01.07
IDOL IN "FEET OF CLAY" SHOCKER!

I mean, Jesus. You lionize a man whose entire critical style is built around hate, contempt, and withering disdain—and then you are shocked, shocked to find him being disdainful, contemptuous, and hateful.

Who, exactly, is the idiot in this scenario?
 
 
Char Aina
17:04 / 26.01.07
jack, dude.
i havent lionize[d] anyone, nor am i shocked, shocked about anything.

i picked lester because of his iconic status, his being the most namechecked journalist of the genre.
i did quite like what i knew of his work, but i knew very little until yesterday.

why do you think that makes me an idiot?
i'm curious. how should i have approached discussing my disappointment if i were as clever as you think i should be about it?

as for his style... do you think his entire critical style [being] built around hate, contempt, and withering disdain necessarily lead to his making the Crucial distinction that the people currently calling the rock scene shots in NYC are not gay, they are faggots,[...] like black people and niggers?

is that what i should expect?
if so, how should i discuss my disapointment that this is the case?
i'm eager to learn, and worried about continuing my idiocy.

help a brother out?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:19 / 26.01.07
Lester Bang`s merits or otherwise aside for a moment, shouldn`t this thread still go in Music? It is obviously about someone who is connected intimately with writing about music, and the secondary request for recommendations of other music writers of note is also concerned with music too.

It's a tricky one... as it's about the writing, it would also be equally at home in Books, Criticism & Writing. Music journalism as a subset of "writing", rather than an offshoot of "music". Hmm.
 
 
Char Aina
17:33 / 26.01.07
do you have any particular favourites, stoats? are there any music critics that you rate?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:46 / 26.01.07
i had always thought he was a fairly right on geezer

Should've done your homework, then. Caveat lector.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:23 / 27.01.07
And now he is. The problem being?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:23 / 27.01.07
Which is to say, toksik wanted to do some writing about writing about music. In the course of his research for this, he read about Lester Bangs. In the course of reading about Lester Bangs, he found Lester Bangs making statements that his pre-research vision of Lester Bangs did not contain.

This is all right down there in black and pastel, Jack, and it's not really toksik's fault if you didn't read it.
 
 
rizla mission
23:47 / 27.01.07
OK;

1. How 'bout moving this to music and/or books soon as possible?

2. Funnily enough, I've been re-reading Lester Bang's 'Psychotic Reactions & Carburettor Dung' recently, appreciating a lot more than the first time round what a really, really vital writer / expresser / inspiring person he was. Did a 'net search for more of his work in a spare moment at work, found article linked to above, thought "gee, glad those guys over at Barbelith haven't got their hands on THIS one...", and otherwise appreciated it as a very fine and heartfelt piece of writing, the desperate universalist conclusion of which rather rises above the clumsy foot/mouth moments (by 2007 standards..) indulged in earlier.

3. Jack Fear; with all due respect, to claim that Lester Bangs worldview was based around "hate, contempt, and withering disdain" is bullshit. Get past the jive-talk and cheap laffs of some of his early work, and you'll find he was as passionate and humanitarian a writer as could be hoped for, throughout his career, with a unique understanding of the power music and culture can hold over people's lives be it positive or negative. His writing during/after the death of his friend Peter Laughner (the defining event in his transition to a positivist, anti-drug, anti-punk agenda in the last years of his life) has recently reduced me to tears on public transport several times. I would suggest (re)reading some of the man's work before making such unfair generalisations.

4. It's clear from reading stuff by Bangs, Richard Meltzer, Punk magazine etc. that to thoughtlessly chuck out stuff like "faggot", "nigger" etc was pretty much EXPECTED of a writer associated with the '70s proto-punk community. Not too applaudable, but that's life. Like I say, any significant exposure to Lester's work should reveal that he was certainly not a homophobe or racist, and in fact you'll find a very good piece within "Psychotic Reactions.." entitled 'White Noise Supremacists' wherein he engages in some pretty hefty self-loathing for having used such terms in his writing and forcibly disassociates himself from members of the New York 'scene' who use such hurtful terminology of a sneering/ironic kinda context.

5. I should probably wait till tomorrow before posting this, but fuck it, I think it's very much in the spirit of the guy we're talking about to go for it now, and god knows, I'm more together than he was when he write the Punk magazine ramble iinked to above. This sorta thing should be borne in mind - you gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater just cos a fucking life-changing, truth hollering writer/theorist throws around a few naughty words when he's out of his head on speed pounding out some nonsense no-one's even gonna print in his lifetime anyway? I don't wish to celebrate such behaviour, but let's not be so fucking uptight.
 
 
Triplets
08:23 / 28.01.07
Should've done your homework, then.

Pot swings at Kettle... and misses!
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:43 / 28.01.07
Who, exactly, is the idiot in this scenario?

I'll admit to having struggled a bit with my conscience with regard to the above.

Am I so cheap, is what I was asking myself. Am I so pathetic? Am I going to give in to the nebulous appeal of the obvious gag, again?

I'm still undecided.
 
 
at the scarwash
20:53 / 28.01.07
Not having a copy of Psychotic Reactions & Carburettor Dung at hand, I can't cite my defenses of him, but I would say that the basis of Bangs' criticism was more in adulation, in rock fanboy ecstasy than in Jack Fear's hate, contempt, and withering disdain. He celebrated the sheer joycore power of the most loveable things about pop music, while maintaining a respectful awareness of the heights it could reach as art.
 
 
Char Aina
21:10 / 28.01.07
is a thorough read of psychotic reactions & carburettor Dung my best bet if i want to learn more about the real lester bangs, then? you and rizla both mentioned it, and i'm getting that idea.

i am now curious why he is such a figure of fame, mainly.
he died young and he was around in the early days of the mass media explosion of the later half of this century, but was there also something magical in his writing, something unique?

people seem to talk about him as though there was, and nobody ever mentions other names to me with the same reverence or praise.

has he never been bettered, in your opinion?
what about you riz?

do you guys feel he was a product of the time, unique because where and when he lived will never be with us again, or do you feel it was more than that?
 
 
at the scarwash
02:22 / 29.01.07
With Nick Tosches and a very few others, Bangs was one of the first writers to come forward with the concept that pop culture criticism, in and of itself is implicitly an artistic endeavor. Although it may be a parasitic genre, it can be as personally expressive and rich as any other form of nonfiction writing. Nick Tosches is probably the wiser and better writer, Bangs has a unique and very passionate approach to his material, and definitely is worth reading.
 
 
rizla mission
11:20 / 30.01.07
is a thorough read of "psychotic reactions & carburettor Dung" my best bet if i want to learn more about the real lester bangs, then? you and rizla both mentioned it, and i'm getting that idea.

"Psychotic Reactions.." is the stanard text, in that unless quite recently it was the only collection of his writing available in book-form. It is edited/compiled by Greil Marcus, and as such it's worth keeping in mind that it's more Greil's-favourite-stuff-by-Lester than either a definitive collection or one that was in any way approved by LB himself (him being dead and all).

That disclaimer aside though, yes, it is an excellent and indeed essential read and does a fine job of tracing the development of LB's writing and thought through his career.

There is now another Bangs collection available, "Mainlines, Bloodfeasts and Bad Taste", which makes for a good volume#2 if you enjoyed "Psychotic Reactions..", and Jim DeRogatis' "Let It Blurt: The Life of Lester Bangs" is a surprisingly vital and worthwhile biography if yr interested in the man himself - he certainly had an interesting enough time of things to DESERVE a biography, which is more than can be said of just about any other music journalist.

i am now curious why he is such a figure of fame, mainly. he died young and he was around in the early days of the mass media explosion of the later half of this century, but was there also something magical in his writing, something unique?

I would certainly say that there is, yes. But more of that later maybe.

I'd say Lester's influence/importance doesn't come from his being either the first or most definitive 'rock-writer' (as people often assume), because he wasn't, basically. If that's what you're looking for, you might be better off looking to Paul Williams or Richard Meltzer (tho his stuff is pretty whacked) and the aforementioned Mr. Marcus.

A far more convincing claim to fame comes from Lester's position as the first guy to go to print in the late-'60s / early-'70s who championed The Velvet Underground and the Stooges as the definitve bands of the period, expressed his love for dumb-ass rock n' roll, free jazz and "horrible noise" at every opportunity and rejected and mocked the reigning orthodoxy of Cream/'Dead/Zeppelin blue-rock and entropic post-hippie culture in general.

The fact he was getting this stuff down on paper during '68-'71 when it was seen as borderline madness understandably gained him a lot of kudos as the 2nd generation punk scene began to coalese around the exact same point of view in the mid/late '70s. He was/is often credited as the earliest exponent of the 'punk' aesthetic, and it is from this that his 'legendary' status largely derives.

And indeed this was the level on which I initially enjoyed "Psychotic Reactions.." when I first zoomed through it: Here's this guy who loved the music I love when everybody else hated it, wrote about it well, threw in a bunch of cool literary devices ripped from Burroughs, Kerouac and Hunter S. Thompson, and finished things off with some personal anecdotes and great gags. Good man! High fives all round.

do you guys feel he was a product of the time, unique because where and when he lived will never be with us again, or do you feel it was more than that?

I feel it was more than that. As I said above in this thread, I have just finished re-reading 'Psychotic Reactions..', and after a few more years of life-experience and continued music-obsession, I am floored by just what an incredible writer this guy was.

If 50% of the book is the fairly easy-going drug-punk wannabe gonzo stuff and general trash-evangelism that stood out for me the first time, the other, more serious half is... well... at this point it's hard to avoid unwrapping a lot of easily thrown out words like "passionate", "honest", "desperate", "articulate"; he CARES about music and needs it within his life in that guileless, devotional way that very few working music writers have the courage to admit to (Everett True & co aside), and when he encounters music he feels is genuinely coming from the heart (and it's usually something pretty out-of-bounds from his established punk-context, like Nico or Van Morrison or Mingus or Otis Rush), he responds in kind, spinning off for pages, getting DEEP inside particular songs and headspaces, relating the music's emotion/power back into his life, into other people's lives, into life in general with a skill for articulate expression that at his best takes him way beyond the music-writing sphere and elicits comparison to Brautigan or Bukowski or Vonnegut or, y'know, whoever.

On first reading, I didn't have much patience with the way he tries to drag entire moral frameworks out of a few scrappy lyrics - "oh for god's sake, who cares, they obviously just put that in to finish off the verse cos it sounded cool; tell me about the big guitar noises and whether the record's any good!" - but what can I say? Now I get it; now I see what he was laying down and why it matters. To those of us who engage with it to this degree and need it to get through the day, music is more than music: if you don't mean it, don't sing it, LB seems to be saying, cos we can't take it if the music starts to lie to us.

Towards the end of his life (especially in the unpublished notes and drafts for fiction included in "Psychotic Reactions.."), Lester forcibly removed himself from what he saw as the nihilism and lack of humanity in the punk / new wave world he'd helped to create, and his writing moves away from rock n' roll and more towards some extraordinary but sadly never fully realised meditations on the alienation and collapsing channels of communication between people, about loneliness and sexual neuroses and all the rest of it, part auto-biographical, part fictional, part random drunken typewriter spree, some of which is extremely moving, retaining the compassion and humour of the above-mentioned writerly comparisons and suggesting that he was making progress towards becoming a great novelist / essayist prior to his tragically premature death.

On music, he captures my own feelings and throws them back at me better than anyone else I've ever read... in retrospect, I think this may actually be BECAUSE rather than in spite of the fact that he so often goes beyond music.
 
 
doctorbeck
12:19 / 01.02.07
i think my favourit bit in psychotic reactions is the one on astral weeks, a truly sublime and elevating lp and somehow, this druggy shithead writer captures the rhythms and trancendental beauty of the music in a way that few other writers have managed to do when writing about another art form
there also seems to me to be something wholly admirable about his championing of outsider music, a deep respect for bleu collar values and the the deeply seditious in his work, tho appreciate that the two books are highly selective edits of a sprawling career that probably cpontained its fair share of boring, dumb, pointless and offensive stuff

it was a massive influence on my own way of getting into sounds in the ealry 90s, along with nick tosches, another writer who really gets under the skin of his subject matter (see the jerry lee lewis biog as the best example of this, it reads like Moby Dick, the book not the band that is)
 
 
Blake Head
14:00 / 26.02.07
Bit late, but reading the thread got me reading the copy of Let It Blurt I’d picked up a while back.

I’d agree with rizla and at the scarwash regarding ‘Psychotic Reactions & Carburettor Dung' being a vital, passionate collection of work. Patchy and overwrought at times, it’s still a good overview of the energy and humour and excess that his work is best known for. I think one of the most appealing qualities of his work is that he was one of the first writers to promote certain styles of music and certain attitudes to music, and to do so energetically and without artifice and with that crucial sense of “being there”. I think a lot of that might be quite individualised depending on whether you share his choices. Like rizla is saying, some of his contemporaries aside, he was one of the few writers championing the punk aesthetic and perhaps the one most successful at articulating the very personal effect it had on energising and disordering the listener’s sensibilities as a uniquely current phenomenon.

There’s certainly something unique in the intimacy of his writing voice, but in terms of why other writers haven’t achieved the same iconic status, I’d suspect it’s partly to do with the fact that music criticism as a field has fragmented to the point where we’re more familiar with writing styles that have a greater subjectivity and there’s a lot more less centralised music writing that covers various fields of interest. Bangs himself had fairly ambivalent views on his art, at once being an aspiring novelist who performed criticism as art and someone who thought that the freedom to write like he did, or to write passionately and without constraints, was open to everyone, which to some degree we have now, and probably all for the better.

Let It Blurt is a good look at his progression from his beginnings as a jazz fiend into his drug punk period, and also covers moments when as his writing career took off he would change his mind about issues, such as when he initially condoned the Stones involvement at Altamont. I think in general knowing more about his life helps you situate his writing as something emanating from someone who wasn’t terribly happy and didn’t want to have a static approach to life or music. A great deal of anger that he directed at himself was for his dependency on others and his religious upbringing, even when he rebelled against it, left him with a fairly heavy set of issues.

This quotation from a close friend is about as close as the book comes to addressing issues of Bangs’ personal prejudices:

“He was a man who was always going to struggle with demons, was always going to struggle with to put right for him emotionally these huge issues like family, having children, women, and ambivalent feelings almost bordering on hostility towards gays. He was always a guy grappling with huge issues and trying to understand.”

The article you linked to is presumably one of the more hostile examples of that sort of ambivalence. I think the article is fairly clear in showing that he doesn’t so much have a problem with men who sleep with men as he does specifically with inauthentic “faggots”, i.e. the sneaky, conspiratorial, emasculated homosexuals that are his target, which isn’t to excuse it, but to understand how his upbringing resulted in him framing an attack on inauthenticity in this way. I think (memory serving) variously in the biography Bangs uses the term descriptively, remarks on it being used at one point as a self-identifier “thin and faggy”, and while he accepts the rights of homosexuals it’s clearly something that made him uncomfortable, so I think it’s quite complex (in terms of what his personal views were). It’s most likely that the problems of contrivance and favouritism he felt he perceived in the music scene of the time and the attitudes of some of those who organised it, were for the reasons above folded into a crude pre-existing narrative about certain types of homosexuals. Which isn't to try to defend or obsfucate his failings, but to comprehend the conflict of values that his viewpoint originated from. It is, amongst other things, an extraordinarily poorly written article.

It’s also worth remembering that as rizla points out the comments were expected of Bangs and his contemporaries and were also acceptable in public; this was a writer whose career started forty years ago and there’s a fair amount of cultural transformation that has to be taken into account.

And, having realised I’m now writing a screed on a writer I’m not that invested in, I think the reason that I would expend additional energy on attempting to understand Bangs’ faults over others is that if there’s any one theme I took from the biography is that his propensity for self-destructive behaviour and self-limiting thinking eventually overtook, but never entirely defeated, his honesty or his desire in being honest to change his views where he had learned better, which in and of itself is commendable. And on a personal level, while I think that I wouldn’t necessarily pick him up if I wanted a more in-depth or academic look at a body of work, I remember the cracking review of Astral Weeks, which made me go back to the music and re-listen to it, which I suppose he would agree was the whole point.

Have you looked into it any further toksik?
 
  
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