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Topics of Concern - Admissions

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
09:52 / 24.01.07
I'm starting some fresh topics, hopefully to get some fresh thinking on a couple of issues. As daddy of this thread, I am putting down some ground rules. I think that we should be dealing only with the art of the possible, so suggestions which are entirely beyond the likely or possible scope of the technicals I think we have to discard. Tom is ultimately sole decider on what is or is not possible, of course, but I think we do have to clip our wings a little to avoid getting clogged up with explaining why we are not dedicating more attention to a beloved but utterly impractical option.

So. Applications. One of the big issues with Barbelith is that the admissions system has gone through a series of changes, and the coding and technology has not really kept up. It was open to all, then closed entirely, then open to people recommended by existing members, and now it is theoretically open to anyone who demonstrates that they actually exists - that is, who has a paid-for account, and institutional account or a long history on a blog or similar that they can demonstrate is theirs. In practice, this means.

1) Person submits their application to barbelith.apply
2) The application is reviewed. Institutional and paid-for email addresses are passed, and their names added to a list.
3) Periodically, this list is sent to Tom to send out invitations.
4) Those without institutional or paid-for email addresses are asked to provide better particulars.

Now, what's wrong with this picture? Well, first up, it is incredibly labour-intensive - for applicant and reviewer. It tilts the balance towards people with jobs. It forces people to give up personal information they may not wish to disclose. It also favours people who have the time and energy to pursue the process. It places tremendous responsibility on a very small group of people.

I would like to see the applications system fixed before anything else on Barbelith changes. I would like to discuss how people feel the applications system could be fixed. This thread is not for discussion of current applications, and any such discussion should be directed to the existing thread on joining Barbelith. I'll keep this thread open for a week, and then we can see where we are.

So. Admissions. New members - what was your experience of the admissions process? Old members - what do you want to get from the admissions process, and what would need to happen for it to be possible?
 
 
jentacular dreams
13:07 / 24.01.07
OK - new member's perspective.

I've been reading barbelith for a number of years now, and remember trying (i.e. finding out how) to join once way back when it was by member recommendation. Realising I didn't know anyone who was a member was slightly irking and I forgot about it, but kept coming back to read the various threads that interested me, mostly in head shoppe and switchboard. At some point or other I must have forgot it was by member recommendation, because I found myself applying by the new route late last year.

From an applicant perspective, I found it fairly painless - it certainly didn't seem like much more work than signing up for any other website anyway (though perhaps I was keen enough to look at the whole ordeal with a rose-tinted view). The 'month' wait ensured I was interested in being a member of the board itself (i.e. people who just want to make one post or join in a single thread would be put off with the knowledge that in all probability the thread in question would have moved on by the time they had access), so I can see the strengths in that respect.

As a point of interest, how many applications are there per month? How long does each one take to process on average? And exactly how small is the small group of people?

I presume that people without a named internet history can still join through member introductions? What about a lot of students, who often have institutional e-mail addresses which mean something to their university/college, but little to outsiders? When applying I considered whether to include my activity on other boards (with links to examples of my input) as evidence of my existence. How would something like that be viewed by the application reviewers?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:46 / 24.01.07
Thanks, KOTB - this is an interesting insight into how the applications process looks from the other side. I'll be back and try to answer your questions ASAP.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
08:57 / 25.01.07
Also a new member (though a long-time lurker), my experience of the applications process exactly mirrors Anticks'. Fairly painless for me but I recognise, not necessarily for those of you hip-deep in applications.

At the risk of adding to that workload and inspired by something in the "Should we rename Barbelith" thread, I wonder if it might be useful to ask new applicants; "Where did you hear about Barbelith?" or similar.

This is fairly standard practice for a lot of registration-based organisations so shouldn't get many backs up and it may be useful in assessing who new members are and whether Barbelith is sufficiently visible to people who are neither GM acolytes nor Chaos Magickians. Might be a starting point if you take up the idea of "agressively marketing" the forum as suggested in the other thread.

Might just add to the hassle, though.
 
 
Smoothly
09:29 / 25.01.07
It’s actually quite common for applicants to include that in their email voluntarily. The first line is often ‘I found Barbelith through…’ (and more often than not that sentence ends ‘…googling The Invisibles / Grant Morrison / Chaos Majick’).
So I guess our Google ranking on various search terms is pretty instrumental in shaping our demographic.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
09:54 / 25.01.07
Ah yes, makes sense.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:13 / 25.01.07
Could we tweak that in any way? Mess with the search terms a bit to draw a broader range of punters in?
 
 
Ron Stoppable
10:40 / 25.01.07
It's very do-able but requires someone with a bit of Search Engine Optimisation experience and the time to do it. I understand there are also some schools of thought that suggest keeping a limit on the number of keywords in the meta-text of a page - three or four at most - to avoid 'keyword spam' and get better returns in the results, on Google at least. Less so for MSN and Yahoo. If you limit it to just a few keywords, it may mean replacing existing ones like "Morrison" or "Majick" and so losing out on reaching that potential audience.

I think.

The firm I work for provides SEO solutions but it's not really my side of the business.
 
 
Quantum
11:00 / 25.01.07
I'd lean toward opening the admissions process for a bit to see what happens. An automated admissions process would be nice, but obviously trolls (one in particular) make that a risky proposition.
I'd like to go for marketing if it were easy to join, but many people I've recommended found it too long and cumbersome to complete the process, or joined and then wandered off. Maybe a password system or something would be possible, but the problem is anything automated is hackable and we've got to balance ease of use with security. It's a tricky payoff.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:22 / 25.01.07
The 'month' wait ensured I was interested in being a member of the board itself (i.e. people who just want to make one post or join in a single thread would be put off with the knowledge that in all probability the thread in question would have moved on by the time they had access), so I can see the strengths in that respect.

Although it should be noted that this is not always the case. Even with the long waiting times before joining we still get the occasional person in who apparently hasn't read anything about the site and hasn't even looked at the code of conduct before posting.

Still, I'm sure it's less than we'd get by going back to the "free-for-all" joining process of yesteryear.

Moving onto the admission's question though.

One possible way that the admissions process could be shortened would be if, as there are on many other message boards, there was a code-of-conduct "form" that people had to tick before joining the site.

Effectively the whole admission process goes on automatic. You apply to join, you're asked to read the code-of-conduct, and if you don't agree then you can't join. If you do agree and then join and behave in a way which goes against the code then you're out on your ear.

I am aware that the code-of-conduct has been suggested before in various iterations. I'm also aware that not everyone would be in support of making the site more regulated in this way.

The trouble, as I see it, is that the easier it is made for people to join the greater the risk of trolls slipping in. That isn't necessarily a problem as long as there is a faster method of dealing with trolls/pookas/etc (currently there isn't).

I think this would be an important point to consider because even with the few dicks we get in now we tend to lose valuable members for months at a time who quit the site out of weariness at the relentless cycle of banning-discussion threads.

I would support a move that allowed people without work email accounts etc to join, but it's hard to see how that could be achieved without opening the door to Hotmail/Yahoo accounts with little or no history.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:23 / 25.01.07
hasn't even looked at the code of conduct before posting.

Sorry, by this I mean the wiki's page on posting ettiquete.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
13:28 / 25.01.07
New members - what was your experience of the admissions process?

I'll quote from my first post on Barbelith:

it's odd how the long time it takes to register on here affects feelings about Barbelith as a community - in fact i've actually developed something of an obsession with the place - i feel like i've gone thru all the stages from excitement at the possibility of finding somewhere on the internet that actually tied pretty much all of my strange and disparate interests together, to desperately wanting to post on dozens of threads, to bitter disillusionment at being (seemingly) forever an observer and never a member, to feigned disinterest and slightly wistful occasional checking while thinking "it wasn't to be", to "OMFG!!!1one!!"£$eleven! i actually got accepted!", to "hmmm... now i actually don't know what to post on on here"...

I think this is a problem, in that i think i would have started contributing to Barbelith far, far more easily if my application had been accepted when the threads that i desperately wanted to post on when i first discovered the site were still vaguely "current". The experience of lurking, unable to post, for several months set up a sort of routine in my head of reading threads, thinking about what i might like to post on them, but not actually posting it (and thus, once i was able to post, letting threads drop or move off-topic before posting on them, and ending up never posting what i wanted to because it no longer felt relevant). Other things contribute to this as well, such as the sometimes intimidating intellectual rigour of the community and the particularity about language (which can sometimes, IMO, make it feel like whatever you post on an issue, you'll get attacked for some phrasing or usage) (note that i think these are good things in general), but i think getting too resigned to lurker status is/was a very major factor.

Does Barbelith still have a route in by member invitation, in addition to the "normal" application process?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:31 / 25.01.07
Well, yes and no - people can PM me with their email address, and they get whacked up in the next batch. Basically, the recommendation counts as a validation.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
13:33 / 25.01.07
Also (just thought of this after pressing "post"), i think that knowing how long it may take to get membership of Barbelith, and that not all applications are accepted, has discouraged me to some extent from telling other people (even tho those other people would probably be far more productive and valuable members than i am) about Barbelith, in case they found themselves unable to get in... so i think it possibly encourages a rather secretive, "closed shop" mentality (other people who i have told about Barbelith's application process have said they thought it sounded a bit like an internet version of the Masons)...
 
 
Ticker
18:28 / 25.01.07
The trouble, as I see it, is that the easier it is made for people to join the greater the risk of trolls slipping in. That isn't necessarily a problem as long as there is a faster method of dealing with trolls/pookas/etc (currently there isn't).

I think this would be an important point to consider because even with the few dicks we get in now we tend to lose valuable members for months at a time who quit the site out of weariness at the relentless cycle of banning-discussion threads.

Hausunfeffer,
Can we get a new Topics of Concern - Banning thread going along side these uns?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:42 / 25.01.07
Absolutely - I think we can't have the discussion about letting people in without the discussion about helping people out... will get onto it once my fingers and brain unfreeze.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:21 / 28.01.07
I think the problem is quite simple. The closed, lengthy, labour-intensive admissions process only began because of the troll problem. We still (often/sometimes) have a troll problem. The admissions process doesn't prevent idiots from joining up, as long as they have 'real' email addresses. It doesn't stop people going ballistic occasionally. Sometimes it doesn't even stop the Fuckwit Previously Known As Knownothing. The troll problem will only be solved by a very clear banning policy, and moderators who are given the power to carry out bans quickly, with a minimum of bureaucracy.

If we had a decent banning policy, we could free up admissions. Then those people who sit around watching threads for months on end, wanting to join in, would be able to do so.

Now, the banning policy is for another thread. But yeah, what Evil Scientist said. A code of conduct. If you don't follow it, you're out. End of story. Less drama all round.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
12:44 / 30.01.07
When I applied, I was freaked out. I wrote like a three-paragraph e-mail that I stared at and edited and reviewed and spellchecked. And eventually sent in and thought "Jesus, they're not gonna go for it."

Frankly, when I later found out that pretty much anyone with a paid-for e-mail address would get slotted in the queue and approved, it was a bit of a disappointment.

Springboarding from Haus' tongue-in-cheek statement over in the Banning thread:

I'd be happy to accept a revision to the admissions system where I can let people in or exclude them based entirely on whether or not I like their covering email. It will do as good a job in achieving the stated aims of the process - to prevent persistent trolls from registering multiple suits and attacking Barbelith - and it would be a lot quicker. However, I suspect that other people would _not_ be happy with that.

... I rather like the idea of a sort of Barbelith equivalent of those Java-enabled strings of jumbled static-y letters and numbers that you have to type in, but in our case it'd just be a random question from a list of 20 or so questions that the applicant has to reply to. Doesn't have to be a genius reply, but just a couple of sentences to show that they're thinking, and to give them the idea that we take quality conversation seriously.

As for what these questions might actually be, I have no idea, but it would certainly be an easy thing to review, weed out app-bots, and guarantee a minimum level of coherence/thoughtfulness off the bat.

Given that I am me, I have probably overlooked some very obvious thing that makes this a bad idea, but it hangs together decently in my head for the moment. I know there are some people that face extra challenges when it comes to such things -- maybe an option to tick a box and have somebody contact you in a different way if you're not comfortable/capable of working through that system?
 
 
Quantum
13:51 / 30.01.07
what these questions might actually be

"Do you love or hate Geoff Johns?"
"Do you grok the supercontext as Ragged Robin's narrative?"
"Deleuze- mad or bad?"

Or maybe, "Which of these statements best describes you;
1. I am here to smash your reality tunnels with my madjix and free you from technocracy control
2. I am here to discuss the impact of Bertieaux on the time travel theories of the Great Morrison
3. I am here to argue about which Transformeris coolest"

If it's 3 then they're in.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:58 / 30.01.07
If it's 3 _and they say Prowl_.
 
 
netbanshee
14:06 / 30.01.07
To continue on the admissions q&a idea above, I think we could build something out that could help make the process easier to manage and improve our visibility. I'd be happy to design and build the front-end of the page, if someone else can handle a little bit of the database work. I manage and build standards-compliant sites as my job, so I can offer some insight into SEO, building methods, etc. if anyone has any questions.

Why not build out a separate admissions page that contains information on joining Barbelith, links to pertinent threads and the wiki, and a form with specific fields that need to be filled out. We can come up with the specific questions and content together. Having an admissions page will help standardize the whole process.

The form could submit the entry into a database that we could check via an administration page or something. Depending on the resources we have, we might even be able to figure out a way to use the distributed moderation system or something like it. 3 agreed votes on the applicant can then push the name out to Tom for an invite.

Just an idea, mind, but I think that it can smooth out some kinks in the process. Thoughts?
 
 
The Falcon
18:16 / 30.01.07
If it's 3 _and they say Prowl_.

Prowl is a little uptight; Soundwave or, indeed, any of his animal cassettes (not Blaster's) would be my preferred answer.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:20 / 30.01.07
Women tend to find Soundwave attractive because he has a cool voice and is a single parent. Now, back on topic.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:42 / 30.01.07
Banshee - has possibilities. Pros - might allow apps to be stored in a more efficient database than the original yahoogroup. Could provide simultaneous real-time evaluation. Could guide reviewers in deciding what criteria to apply. I think there's an issue, again, around what the process is actually for, and another one around who we trust to push that process, given those objectives. Also, it remains unautomated - applicants will have a better idea of how to present the information, but there's still going to be at least one and possibly two bottlenecks.

Hmmm. It's an interesting idea, though - will think further.
 
 
nighthawk
20:57 / 30.01.07
I'm not sure if the Q&A thing is a serious suggestion, but I think its a really bad idea...

- It will put people off joining. Seems almost like an entrance exam. Surely more effective moderator powers are a better solution - it would make it clear that certain behaviours not tolerated on Barbelith, but without giving the impression that you have to pass something to post here

-I can't imagine what suitable questions and acceptable answers would look like? Besides, the fact that someone responds thoughtfully to a particular question hardly rules out future misbehaviour. Trolling on Barbelith generally comes out of interaction with other board members in particular threads (when a person's point of view is challenged, etc.), and I doubt you can predict that on the basis of an isolated answer. Spamming is easily dealt with and not a major problem, and although what counts as suitable material for a Barbelith thread is a bit more vague and subjective, you can't determine a posters possible contribution to the board the basis of a few questions, surely?



I think we need to address the fact that only people with paid/institutional email addresses can join Barbelith at the moment. It seriously restricts our potential membership and excludes people on unfortunate grounds, which sort of undermines the idea of Barbelith as 'a new kind of community' (or makes the tagline fairly sinister!)...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:23 / 30.01.07
Agreed, definitely. Actually, you can join without and insitutional or paid-for email address, but the process of doing so is harder for you and the passer.
 
 
netbanshee
21:24 / 30.01.07
I was thinking the questions would sum up some of the general things we would want to know about potential new members... we don't break out ass-candles for the uninitiated. We could also express what the community is about, offer some feel for what the board is like for some of us, what it can be for new members and general policy.

While I was helping check applications in the yahoogroup for a bit, I noticed that it took some back-and-forth at times to get the information we were looking for from those who applied. Emails can be too wide open. By having these things in a form, we can get the required information we need and pose some optional questions to gather a bit more insight if the applicant wishes to provide it.

Likewise, we also have to agree upon what is reasonable to ask of new people. A byproduct of building websites is that it causes you to think ahead before you commit to putting something out there. Nothing makes web devs grumpier than not thinking things through.

Here are some things off the top of my head:

Name:
Email:
Desired Ficsuit Name:

Where did you hear about Barbelith?
What are your interests?
How long have you been aware of Barbelith?
Are there any threads that you find of particular interest?
Any comments?

A checkbox that states the person has read the wiki links and threads we linked to.

etc., etc.

Haus - I agree that this takes a bit of thinking and needs to be fleshed out. Sort of approaching it from an angle where I have some strengths.

I'm not expecting this to solve all of our problems, but it is something that will help visibility, streamline some parts of the process we can control, and offer a specific area to present to the public. These are areas of concern that have been brought up in the more recent policy threads.
 
 
netbanshee
21:31 / 30.01.07
An additional note...

I'm trying to think of a solution that can be implemented without causing strain on Tom and Cal... due to their limited time. This plays a big role in what we are able to do here. Any other suggestions are very welcome.

Beyond what we present on the front-end (visuals, text information, form questions), the difficult area will be on the back-end (database setup, administration, management, etc.). I can already see where there might be some of those bottlenecks Haus mentioned. I'm happy to talk about these too, but I need to finish up some work before I head home.

Cheers.
 
 
Char Aina
21:41 / 30.01.07
Name:
Email:
Desired Ficsuit Name:

Where did you hear about Barbelith?
What are your interests?
How long have you been aware of Barbelith?
Are there any threads that you find of particular interest?
Any comments?

A checkbox that states the person has read the wiki links and threads we linked to.

etc., etc.


i don't get what this info will be good for. checkboxes are never anything other than a way to be able to say"well you agreed...". that may be of some use, i guess.
the questions about threads and what you think of the site, though...
i'd give up on the entry if it was me.
i think you'd lose alot of interesting posters and make people feel, like folks already have with our relatively hoop free and simple system, that we are difficult and exclusive.

wha do you see as the benefits and uses of the answers gained?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
21:49 / 30.01.07
Quick note to say that yes, I was serious, and also aware that the idea probably had flaws I wasn't seeing, which are well-summed-up above.

I think my concern wasn't as much to "judge" answers and deem worthiness, but to institute an initial feeling that we're pretty serious about quality of conversation; I guess the response to one concern above is if somebody isn't willing to toss off a two-sentence reply to a question about their general interests or what interests them about the community or ... whatnot... that this might not be a comfortable environment for them anyway. Again with the option of "would you prefer to speak to somebody via private e-mail in lieu of answering this question" or something similar, so as not to exclude people who don't feel comfortable with a "test question."

Maybe somebody could straw-poll more recent members to see if this would have put them off? I would have been game, but then again I like to ramble on at the drop of a hat.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
21:51 / 30.01.07
Addendum: the Q&A thing may be a good way to sidestep the institutional/paid e-mail thing too, possibly, as it establishes "genuineness" for people who don't have non-freemail addresses.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:13 / 30.01.07
Remember - the aim of the admissions process is not to weed out people who would not be interesting, or would not take Barbelith seriously - at least, not currently. It is to prevent hardcore trolls who will endanger the future of the board, in particular when banning is so difficult, from joining and from registering multiple suits. Some trolls will not be able to get through a few sentences without being spotted, but most will get past most potential examiners easily enough. It does make it slightly less convenient, but not massively so - in conjuction with other calming measures, it might dissuade the registration of multiple suits, which would be a benefit, but not a sufficient benefit.
 
 
netbanshee
23:19 / 30.01.07
Like I said before, an admissions page with a form, if that's a plausible direction, will take some thought. I just figured I would kick-start one idea and put some initial things out there to mull over. I'm interested in other ideas too... this is just one that I could probably offer a better hand in.

I agree with the need to gather more information from recent members and get a feel for what the process was like and where there can be improvements. This will be helpful regardless of the methods we intend to incorporate. Someone want me to hit up the convo pager to ask members if they would like to join in?

Beyond just addressing technical matters such as email addresses and such, a form is an opportunity to gather some more info from people who are interested in joining. As I mentioned above, there can be optional fields that an applicant could fill out if so inclined and it can give us some idea how and why people are coming here. This satisfies some of that "aggressive marketing" aspects of the conversation.

It's also par for the course when signing up for things like mailing lists, software and other things that are out there on the net and optional answers avoid the need for the feeling of being under a spotlight in a dark room.

Personally, I feel that if someone wants to join the board, they should have some idea of what's going on here and realize that the bar might be set a little higher here than at other places. It's an opportunity to say that the 'lith will take issue with language asserting that a particular type of lower body wear constitutes a certain non-normative sexual proclivity and so on. It's not an attempt to weed out particular types of individuals (beyond lazy spammers, multi-suit trolIs, and Jim Morrissey fans). I think that places like the headshop can be seen as far more intimidating than a application form. Just curious where a good line in the sand would be.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:10 / 31.01.07
I think perhaps rather than or as well as such a thing, what we need is a set of instructions: give us an insitutional address if you have one. We don't need to register you with it, but we will ask for a demonstration that it is yours. If you do not have an institutional address, do you have a website registered to this email address? If you do not have a website registered to this email address, do you have a website that has the email address you are using to apply here on it? If you do not have that, do you have a LiveJournal/myspace or similar? If you have a LiveJournal/myspace or similar, please post an entry mentioning Barbelith and send us the link.

If you have none of those things, then we enter into correspondence. This is, to be honest, rather fussy in itself, but we can't properly loosen up admissions unless we sort out the broken banning system.
 
 
el d.
15:15 / 31.01.07
All this still doesn´t evade sorting through the entries manually, though.
Which is a good thing. Having to apply via a valid email is a big hurdle to take ( by internet standards), and it does get people to take this seriously. (Mostly. Me, at least.)

I don´t think there´s a set of questions to certain topics which could determine the nature of a future poster. Perhaps there is some possibility to spread the process to more people?
I´m thinking of a "mafia" style system here. You get the guy in, you get the guy out. A bit patronizing perhaps, effective nonetheless. A bit like the invite system, but with the added ability of the user in question to kick his guests out again if they turn out to be malignant. Of course, the malignacy in question should be obvious and provable.
(Probably needs some kind of threshold to stop people from inviting right after they join.)

There are some technical problems too, I gather. Is the code of Barbelith open for contributions?
 
  

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