BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Adoption Warning By British Catholics

 
 
Quantum
10:57 / 23.01.07
The Catholic Church in England and Wales would be forced to close down its adoption agencies if new laws required them to place children with gay couples, the church's leader has warned.
Guardian Article

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor said "We believe it would be unreasonable, unnecessary and unjust discrimination against Catholics for the Government to insist that if they wish to continue to work with local authorities, Catholic adoption agencies must act against the teaching of the Church and their own consciences by being obliged in law to provide such a service."

Do Catholics have a right to discriminate based on sexual orientation? What will happen to the children they help if the Sexual Orientation Regulations mean the closure of their adoption agencies? Is Ruth Kelly's Opus Dei connection relevant?
 
 
Not in the Face
12:11 / 23.01.07
I would hope that its a not untypical if still unpleasant case of predicting that the sky will fall in order to stave off change or gain some form of exemption. The Independent
article
says that the seven agencies handled about 4% of the adoption cases last year so not only do they not have the clout of numbers but the likelihood of encountering the situation is small. Given that I doubt they would close the agencies especially with the bad PR that would generate.

Kelly's comments that these children that would suffer if Catholic couples were no longer encouraged to adopt by church-run agencies seem a good example of this kind of grand standing. I think that the less politically minded within the services would resist the idea that their organisations should be shut down (and they would lose their jobs). Many if not all of those seven have probably declared themselves non-denominational for a long time now and so the Archbishop's comments might not be welcomed inside the services themselves
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:32 / 23.01.07
It's nice to know that some Catholics feel they don't have a moral responsibility to look after abandoned kids or that that responsibility is outweighed by their interest in where I park my manparts.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:38 / 23.01.07
I don't think Opus Dei has any real relevence here, they may be the freemasons for people hooked on the smell of incense but only a fool or Dan Brown would believe that they are a threat to world order. It is troubling that we have someone who doesn't seem to believe in equality as the Equalities Minister.

Any church that has such a problem with their members noncing the kids has no right to tell law-abiding families that want to help that they aren't fit to be parents. The way to deal with this is to call the Church's bluff. I think the story that Catholic adoption agencies closed down will be more damaging to the church than it will be to the Government.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:52 / 24.01.07
(As a slight off-topic, Anglicans have backed Catholics right to prejudice)
 
 
jentacular dreams
09:59 / 24.01.07
A couple of lines from the guardian article that didn't quite sit right with me....

(following on from the 4% thing)...But they found homes for around a third of the "difficult-to-place" children. Ms Kelly argues it is these children that would suffer if Catholic couples were no longer encouraged to adopt by church-run agencies.

Is it just me, or does the change in the law have no direct bearing on whether catholic couples are urged to adopt? Or does this implicitly imply that catholic agencies encourage catholic couples more than they do non-catholics?

Then one from the Williams/Sentamu letter in the times:

The rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation, however well meaning.” They draw a comparison with doctors working for the NHS, who are entitled to opt out of performing abortions if it goes against their conscience.

Yes, but the doctors who opt out aren't a good comparison are they? In adoption it's the interest of the children that is at stake, not that of the parent. If the agency was allowed to opt-out by handing control of the child in question to another secular agency this might be a better comparison. But as far as I'm aware that is hardly the case.

I can sort of understand the basis behind the churches' fears, each has their doctrines after all. However doctrines have changed over the years, scripture has been interpreted and reinterpreted. And I suspect that even if these churches were proved right, and that heterosexual couples did make statistically 'better' parents (something that is obviously as yet untested), then a loving same sex couple would surely still be a pretty good deal compared to remaining in care?

Gay campaigners argue, however, that gay parents are themselves more likely to adopt the most vulnerable children and nothing should be done to bar them from the system.

I found this point slightly galling, suggesting as it does that 'gay couples just care more'. Surely it depends on the individuals in question, no? Does anyone know where i can see some actual figures? I haven't been able to find any hard facts on the matter, but I have found plenty of claims from both sides of the debate on matters such as athe longevity and stability of heterosexual vs homosexual couples etc.

Some interesting/interestingly-outdated points in the adoption debate from 2002.

[Lady O'Cathain] claimed the pool of parents will widen due to other reforms in the adoption bill. She said at present: "Over 90% of would-be adopters gave up or were turned down as the process lasted too long. Adopters were told you are too poor, too fat, you live in too big a house or go to the church.[...]

[...]She also opposed co-habiting opposite sex couples from adopting. She said: "If a cohabiting couple wish to adopt and make a permanent long standing commitment to the child, why not make a long term permanent commitment to one another?" Lord Elton, from the Conservative front bench said: "The average length of a cohabiting relationship is two years. Cohabiting couples are six more times likely to split up than married couples". He added: "If we think unmarried hetrosexual couples are a poor bet, then gay relationships are even less stable. Why should parliament consciously and deliberately allow some of our most vulnerable children to be adopted by couples whose relationships are more likely to fall apart than married couples?"

The Bishop of Winchester, the Rt Rev Michael Scott-Joynt, said that to leave the bill as it was amended by MPs would be to undermine marriage. He said he opposed "the committing of children to a relationship for life to couples who have not committed themselves in public and law until death us do part".


Funny how civil partnerships failed to change anyone's mind....
 
 
Axolotl
16:37 / 24.01.07
*Warning - less than well thought out rant ahead*
I wish I could opt out of laws I don't like for "reasons of conscience". I can't believe they're even trying this on. I wish other groups that only made up 17.5% of the population (that's up here in Scotland) got pandered to us much when it came to the government making a decision on policy.
I wish I had something more constructive/ intelligent to say but this entire issue fills me with rage.
 
 
Ganesh
17:54 / 24.01.07
Yes, but the doctors who opt out aren't a good comparison are they? In adoption it's the interest of the children that is at stake, not that of the parent.

It's a bit of a crappo example, yes. Where abortion is concerned, doctors who have particularly strong feelings on the subject have the option of not going into Obs & Gynae. I think that anyone who specialised as an obstetrician and refused to perform terminations would be frowned upon by the GMC. A general practitioner who refused to refer an individual seeking termination to a colleague and simply said 'no' would be viewed equally dimly.

As an NHS psychiatrist, I cannot refuse to treat homophobic Catholic or Christian patients on the grounds that I find their 'lifestyles' repugnant. I don't see why Catholic or Christian adoption agencies (or, for that matter, other businesses) should be able to turn me down for similar reasons.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
18:21 / 24.01.07
I suspect that even if these churches were proved right, and that heterosexual couples did make statistically 'better' parents (something that is obviously as yet untested)

It's not untested. It's been tested over and over again. Basically, the only metric on which kids adopted by gayers are substantially negatively affected is that they're more likely to be the target of homophobic bullying - which if used as an argument against gay couples adopting, obviously becomes rather circular.

Oh, and that they're more likely to experiment with their sexuality and to be promiscuous, which doesn't really hold up as an argument against anything unless you're a reactionary beast.
 
 
Princess
18:42 / 24.01.07
I'm not sure how that works as an argument Ganesh. As a health-worker, your focus is on the client. Adoption agencies are, I suppose, meant to be focusing on the commodity.

A health worker has a proffesional responsibility to the client, and so quite probably would be expected to ignore/deal with the client's opinions and deviances.

An adoption agency, on the other hand, has a responsibility to the child. As a result, the client's deviances and opinions become a central issue and a deciding factor of whether the transaction should take place. I don't think it's a fair comparrison, because it suggests a selfish approach on the part of the Catholics.

That said. Witholding a child because the parents are gay is still ridiculous. Forcing your own personal politics onto a child that is not even your own is quite obviously absurd. The purpose of the adoption agencies is to rehouse kids, not to keep them away from a life of sin. And even if it where, I've got a sneaking suspiscion that isn't what has caused the morality rash.

Are the potential parents checked for all the other sins? If someone is uncharitable and wears sweatshop shoes, are they allowed a baby? What about the white-supremacists? And the misogynists who ignore the whole "there is no male or female in Christ thing", how many of them have been turned away? If someone has details on this, I'd really like to see them, but I get the suspiscion that the answers would be "no", "yes", "yes" and "not a lot". The isn't about saving souls, it's about Homophobia. Pure and simple. It's not because homosexuality is the worst sin, it's because the Catholic orthodoxy still operates as if "gay" and "paedophile" were still synonyms.
 
 
Princess
18:43 / 24.01.07
Damn, someone managed to say it quicker than I did. Damn you x-posting demon of mine.
 
 
Ganesh
18:53 / 24.01.07
I'm not sure how that works as an argument Ganesh. As a health-worker, your focus is on the client. Adoption agencies are, I suppose, meant to be focusing on the commodity.

A health worker has a proffesional responsibility to the client, and so quite probably would be expected to ignore/deal with the client's opinions and deviances.


Usually, but not always. As a psychiatrist, I also have a duty to those around my client - I'm expected to assess the risk to others as well as to him - and his "opinions and deviances" (which seems an odd way of summarising either religion or sexuality) therefore have a bearing on my assessment. For example, I might believe that religious homophobia predisposes to violence/neglect and this may colour my dealings with those I perceive to be religious homophobes.

An adoption agency, on the other hand, has a responsibility to the child. As a result, the client's deviances and opinions become a central issue and a deciding factor of whether the transaction should take place. I don't think it's a fair comparrison, because it suggests a selfish approach on the part of the Catholics.

I think it's a fair comparison in that it's the perceived "deviances and opinions" that become central - and a Catholic individual's perception of what is harmful to a child may not reflect the objective reality/evidence base of what is harmful to a child. If one is to disregard all available research in favour of one's personal beliefs, why can't I make clinical decisions based on my belief? If I believe, for example, that religious homophobia predisposes to violence, I might then find reasonable grounds (based in my own personal worldview, obviously) to refuse to deal with Catholics or Christians - or have a lower threshold for sectioning them under the Mental Health Act.
 
 
Princess
19:04 / 24.01.07
Ah, I get you now. Yeah, you're right.

Apologies for the "deviance and opinion" thing. I forgot my scare-quotes.
 
 
Ganesh
19:28 / 24.01.07
Apologies if this is up elsewhere, but there's an online petition to have Ruth Kelly removed as Minister for Women and Equality.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:42 / 24.01.07
Rowan Williams really is having a bad year. Given that he is apparently a dear friend of a gay priest who is raising a disabled child with his same-sex partner, this is particularly excruciating.

Ultimately, however, this is the rule of law, isn't it? If Catholics want to leave or shut down their adoption agencies, then there is no law against leaving a job. However. If one choose to refuse to offer a service to Jewish people, on the grounds that your conscience tells you that Jewish people should not have children, you would be breaking the law. I don't see how this differs. I can foresee a fudge where the agencies are given more time to retrain or purge recusant workers, which would be poor form but not a total capitulation.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:19 / 25.01.07
There are newspaper reports that Blair is either 'backing down' (Indy) or 'caving in' (Mail) from his support for the exemption. The Times reports he met with reps from Stonewall who suggested a 12 month transition period for the church agencies to effectively shape up or shut down.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:23 / 25.01.07
OK, Martin Reynolds has come forward - article here.
 
 
Princess
10:12 / 26.01.07
From the article-

"Recently Mr Reynolds tried an experiment. He rang a Catholic agency and, posing as an atheist, asked whether he might be considered for fostering. He was told there would be no problem with that. Later he rang back and admitted he was gay and that placed him beyond the pale.

Ah, I see.
 
 
Quantum
09:45 / 30.01.07
Banning Catholic adoption agencies from refusing to accept gay couples is the first step in moves to ban religion from public life, the leader of the church in England and Wales has warned.
 
 
jentacular dreams
11:35 / 30.01.07
Regulations covering all adoption agencies offering publicly-funded services will come fully into force at the end of 2008. Until then there will be a "statutory duty" for agencies refusing to process applications from same-sex couples to refer them elsewhere.

Personally I would have been happy enough with this, if they'd accepted it from the start, and - more importantly - if the catholic(/other religious) agencies had been refusing single(/unmarried) parents the right to adopt. Surely, if their argument is that children should *only* be brought up in the "sanctity of marriage as intended by God" then they should have turned away anyone outside of these criteria, rather than homosexual couples only?
 
 
Axolotl
18:36 / 30.01.07
I was thinking that allowing the Catholic Church to focus entirely on the row over adoption agencies is doing them a huge favour.
This law is about banning discrimination, they can't campaign against that without seeming like a bunch of reactionary hate-filled fucks, so they frame it as a debate about adoption. I think the way they've taken the media debate and presented in the way they want has been remarkably effective. Loathsome, but effective.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:34 / 30.01.07
Why nearly two years? Surely this effectively means that they are allowed to turn gay couples away (unless it's one of those exemptions mentioned on Newsnight) until a couple of weeks before the rules come into force? Surely there's not much administrative stuff that needs to take place unless they are actually closing the agency down? Is this just one of those 'compromises' that doesn't actually please anyone?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:53 / 31.01.07
Oh, that makes more sense, Cardinal O'Murphy sees it as two years in which to change the mind of the Government.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:01 / 31.01.07
Slightly off-topic but I couldn't resist sharing: Cardinal O'Murphy accuses government of imposing it's own morality on Britain, mainly because of the adoption thing. Isn't that what Government's do? Even if the Government followed the Catholic Church gameplan, it would be imposing it's own morality on the country.
 
 
Axolotl
11:47 / 31.01.07
Surely it's what the Catholic Church does if given half a chance?
 
  
Add Your Reply