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Caught in Amber vs. Being There In Spirit

  
 
Ticker
17:37 / 22.01.07
Okso...

I've always been annoyed by shutterflies at sacred sites & rites and been the scowling maven of 'Be Here Now'. There's something about focusing on getting the artifact of the event above particpating in the event that vexes me. A beautiful picture or retelling of the thing may carry you back to the memory but it isn't a replacement for the live experience.

...and yet....

Many of us have objects that have power and function even though we were not directly there during the ritual that infused that meaning into the artifact.

...and...

some of us need to do public ritual for our communities. Some of those folks may not be able to travel to attend but current technology has offered up some gadgets like webcams.

My specific situation:
I give entry tokens in advance before a ritual to the particpants. The object serves as an invitation to that person and in some cases they are invited to invest some personal energy/intent into the object knowing they will be returning it to me for the ritual. Often this object is the permit that let's them into the sacred space. I need the exchange for recognition (oh yes, that's right you were invited) and the offering (oh and look you brought something). These tokens also usually allow the participants to access whatever beneficial action is at the heart of the ritual (healing, divination, myth).

So as I'm designing my next one of these rituals I'm aware that I could, you know, mail these things to people who wanted to particpate and they could mail them back. I could arrange to have a webcam set up so those remote participants could get a feed.

Quantum mentioned that some rituals have evolved to have a space reserved for the observer and while I know the people using the tiny window of webcamness would not be getting the full event, would it be of some value?

I think the answer goes back to intent. If the photographer is not engaging in the ritual just hovering around it they are still having an impact on it. Better to incorporate them into the ritual so they have a mindful presence rather than just trying not to get blood on the lense. Why not have a ritually charged person being the voice of the IM divination requests ?I find I can do time delayed Celtic Reiki treatments or tarot for people, but only for people I have some connection with, like a picture or phone call. The mailed token would act in a similar manner methinks....



the more I poke it with a stick, the more I'm thinking the divisions of being there and being an observer are really matters of personal perception. Someone physically present may have a much more non engaged perspective than someone online. However I do think much of the physical work of ritual is designed to break that non engagement. So am I really looking at how to break the next layer of online homeness? Or is ritual really just for those who can make it?

Anyway I'm curious what other people think about engaging with ritual in terms of documenting it and levels of live participation.
 
 
Quantum
18:12 / 22.01.07
Briefly, have you considered a magical camera/webcam/live RSS feed etc? I mean, imbue the tech and include it as a perspective in the rite as a proxy for the person on the other end. A photo of the people involved via the cam placed next to the cam so you can see what they look like, basically whatever you can do to make the cam a stand in for the folk. More tmrw...
 
 
Ticker
18:30 / 22.01.07
I'm thinking about how to make it a stand in without overwhelming the Real Live peeps sitting there. No playing it up just to the home audience. Or else fuck it, do a separate rite entirely just for them peeps.

On first pass I'd probably be tempted to treat the camera as I would a living person, but you know, it's not. So rather than be in denial about what it is I'd rather make room for it to be what it is.

Though I'm wondering if it might be better to have an together different approach. Screw the web cam they're sort of shite. Get a couple of ritually active partipants to take pictures and then create a online artifact that is not the same as being there. I'm leaning toward the oldschool by proxy have someone read and transcribe the exchanges on your behalf for divination. So it would be more interesting to me (as I'm thinking of it) to have particpants uploading images/exchanging text during the ritual as part of the rite for building community....
 
 
EmberLeo
20:57 / 22.01.07
Well, I think there's another layer there of what documentation provides: Education for others entirely. I don't remotely get the same thing out of watching documentaries of Bembes held by some other House as I do by participating in the Bembes held by my own House, but I absoloutely get something out of it.

Primarily, I get learning more about variations on the traditions.

Even just to that end, I think having a designated space for folks who want to learn before participating, or who are respectful outsiders rather than involved insiders makes sense in some contexts. How involved an observer should be depends on the nature of the ritual, eh?

But you seem to be asking a slightly different question. Can a person be involved from a distance at all, really? And to that I say well... if it can be done in spirit, I don't see why a webcam would hinder that process. But there might need to be not only a place for the webcam at the ritual end, but a special process of attending the ritual from a distance on the spiritual level.

I percieve a difference between Connected To and Present At on an energy level. I agree that your tokens could allow folks to connect to the ritual, but I'm not sure there wouldn't need to be some other process to also have them Present At the ritual. Perhaps a kind of journeying across the space between their body and the physical space of the ritual?

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
08:45 / 23.01.07
I percieve a difference between Connected To and Present At on an energy level.

Could you elaborate a bit more on that?
 
 
EmberLeo
09:26 / 23.01.07
I suppose it's one of Temporal Attention.

I can be connected to something or somebody on an energetic level and not be paying active attention to it. Being Present means I'm not only connected, I'm engaged and attentive to it.

I do believe it's possible, with some effort, to be connected, engaged, AND attentive to something happening somewhere else - and indeed, that this is facilitated by a remote view of the event.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:15 / 23.01.07
I dont know, its not really the same as being and doing is it, i could place a web cam over my altar and then perform the ritual in another room, without the altar space and it just wouldnt be the same, no being and doing in the sacred space at that moment.

Perhaps it is the making of that sacred space that is important to me, and without being in that space, i dont feel as if i would be a part of that ritual. Unless i were to engage in making the space where i was viewing with a similar ritual to that being performed and making or giving my own sense of space sacrality.

The notion of fly on the wall and docudrama come to mind as well, people behave differently when they know they are on camera, just look at reality t.v, I think being in the space and embodying the ritual are very important, the environment is very important, no smell of incense, no heat of candle flame, no touch of my lips to the ground, i cant see that it would work personally for me, but perhaps it does have a very intresting place if someone is just participating as an observer, i guess in the long run i would have to try it to see what was in it.
 
 
Ticker
12:47 / 23.01.07
I think being in the space and embodying the ritual are very important, the environment is very important, no smell of incense, no heat of candle flame, no touch of my lips to the ground,

I'm leaning in this direction as well. I was thinking a lot last night about sacred documents/artifacts and how these things are clearly not meant to be the ritual experience but a product of the ritual. There's something about setting expectations. A great ritual you are invited to attend may be utter crap via a live feed because of expectations. However if you are given an artifact from the ritual it is not expected to be the full experience.

I'm currently of the mind that it would be better to do a ritual with the intent of producing artifacts that could be digital in nature yet sacred. I see no reason one couldn't produce a sacred document in the form of digital art. In fact I suspect a multi layered approach would be very useful for those who were not present as well as those that were. Objects used in the ritual exchanged via snailmail and then access to document site might create an entirely different experience.

Certainly something to experiment with.
 
 
Haloquin
10:22 / 24.01.07
As a thought, could it work if the people joining a ritual digitally were given specific instructions, like they had to set up their own sacred space at their end and then energetically journey to the places the ritual actually is. I'm not sure how you structure your rituals, but the majority of the rituals I've been to have cast a circle and then the circle space is outside of the everyday world, theres no reason I can see that you couldn't be in the circle-space and be elsewhere physically.
No, it definately wouldn't be the same. And maybe it would be better to have 2 rituals, one digital and one irl, perhaps with the rl ritual generating a sacred digital artifact that could link the two.

It is possible to have a 2-way webcam, so both sets of people can see each other, which may help.

I wonder how people work 'cyber-rituals' in 'cyber-covens', that may provide some useful information.

These are just ideas, I notice you seem to be heading away from the direct-digital participation idea but I thought I'd share just in case.

Would it perhaps be a good idea to try it on a small scale, with people experienced in normal ritual, to see what sort of effect it has? Would there be a few people on Barbelith willing to experiment?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:31 / 24.01.07
But even with a two-way webcam, aren't both sets of people going to lose something? Will the numen of the experience still be shared?

I'm not saying it's impossible (heck, I've seen still photos of a woman horsing Hela that froze my blood--if I'd been physically present, I think I'd have died). I'm genuinely interested in this sort of thing because I've been having thoughts along similar lines myself.
 
 
Haloquin
10:54 / 24.01.07
I think there'll be a difference in experience... but not having tried it I don't know how different, or what would be lost.
On the other hand, if the person can't make it anyway they aren't losing anything by having an experience of it, are they? And if it is worked into a ritual, I think people there may not have anything detracted.

I forgot, I have had an experience along these lines. At Skanda Vale, a multi-faith centre of Hindu base, the Mother Temple is tiny, so they have a huge screen where the ritual is shown for people in the terrace, especially small children and women who are menstruating, who aren't allowed in.

This in no way detracted from the experience of being in the ritual, and allowed people who wouldn't otherwise have had the chance to experience any of it to get that. I was on the steps between the two. It wasn't as strong outside, but the devotion was there, and the people were allowed in afterwards to get the blessings, which could be posted in token format in a distance situation.
Also, the terrace was brightly lit, given that the distance participants would presumably not be doing this in an internest cafe, they may be able to set the scene for themselves better.

Yes, face to face has got to be better, but given distance or nothing, I know which I'd choose.
 
 
Haloquin
10:57 / 24.01.07
I do think the best way to find out would be to try it, although I'd be tempted to use a small group who work together on it first rather than experiment with a community service with no prior experience.
 
 
Ticker
12:19 / 24.01.07
It's funny how much the term cyber-coven makes me cringe. Maybe it's because coven makes me cringe a bit and then the added interwebbie faux cool layer ontop...

Yet it does serve the purpose of drawing attention to the first layer, that of successful IRL group workings. You have to start there with the dynamics though they will evolve to fit a different method of communication.

I have had experiences doing intense ritual and having someone with a camera involved. In one case it was very much the removed observer approach and as such the person wasn't trying to participate in the ritual as much as not completely be in the way. The affect of their non integration caused the whole thing to feel a bit staged and I'd say the rest of us didn't drop as deepely into the event because of it. Wasn't so much playing to the lense as being aware that this other purpose, that of creating a document rather than particpating, was floating around us. Distracting. The other experiences I've had have been with someone very much involved in the ritual attuned to the ebb and flow of energy and timing choosing moments to capture. Felt as if they would reach out and grab a piece of the charged space and put it in a jar for later.

Haloquin, I'm glad you mentioned the Temple example. In that context it sounds like the people on the terrace had their expectations set that what they were doing was not *the* ritual but a slightly removed slice. Still participating but consciously aware of being removed a degree.

I think setting this perception is important if one was going to conduct an online ritual, acknowledging than you aren't in the Holy of Holies IRL but on the digital terrace.
 
 
grant
14:51 / 24.01.07
If the photographer is not engaging in the ritual just hovering around it they are still having an impact on it. Better to incorporate them into the ritual so they have a mindful presence rather than just trying not to get blood on the lense.

Funny thing -- I was once at a Balinese funeral. These are big, parade-like affairs, with huge, animal-shaped carnival-float-like coffins that get marched through town (sometimes with local dudes using them like mechanical bulls) and then set on fire. Householders splash water or throw confetti, and huge crowds gather to join the parade. Tourists with flash cameras are encouraged, actually.

The idea behind the ritual is to disorient the spirit of the deceased so they won't be able to find their way home and cause mischief. The more weird gawkers and distractions, the better. Get that body good and dizzy. Flash those lights. Chase them to a better place.

So, that's one way to incorporate the act of recording & the presence of outsiders.
 
 
Ticker
13:42 / 30.01.07
I attended a fantastic presentation about how to take pictures of difficult live interactions, in this case BDSM rope rigging. While not exactly the same as formal ritual work it does have a lot of overlap specificly the difference between staging an image for the camera or inviting the photographer into the scene to create artifacts of the exchange.

For me the most useful aspect of the presentation was about matching intents from the beginning of the work. By involving the photographer in the process and deciding to build a space into the event (with the right person) the camera becomes the tool of the sacred archivist.

Yeah I know we were sort of talking about this already but it was pretty great to see examples of it being done so well.

Iffin' you're into beautiful erotic rope bondage you can check out some of the images from the presentation at Possibly NSFW: DeLano Bound. I recommend the Possibly NSFW: Mayan Lee Series.

Michele Serchuk is an amazing photographer and develops a connection with her subjects before the camera arrives.
 
  
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