BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Hugo Chavez, Socialism in South America

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Quantum
13:46 / 11.01.07
I haven't noticed much discussion here of Latin American Socialism, so I thought I'd start a thread on the news today;
In front of a packed national assembly he accepted the presidential sash, raised his right hand and declared: "Fatherland. Socialism - or death! I swear it." After a pause, he added: "I swear by Christ - the greatest socialist in history."
The same day Daniel Ortega won in Nicaragua, so is anyone interested in the 'reddening' of south america? (Mr Chavez's campaign slogan was "rojo, rojito" - red, very red) How do these two relate to Bolivia's Evo Morales?
 
 
Christoph_Chicken
18:58 / 25.01.07
Hugo seems to be a nice man. Venezuala even sent a couple of emmisaries to the city I live in for a question and answer session, after a screening of The revolution will not be televised' '- an interesting documentary about the US led coop attempt. They were really sound people, one from Venezuala and the other from Cuba.

Did I read about him being all nice and friendly with China?
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:15 / 25.01.07
hmmm doesn't "rojo, rojito" mean "Red little red."

I grew up understanding the replacement if "ito" to the end of a word makes it small or Chicito
 
 
lekvar
20:50 / 25.01.07
I haven't been able to fully wrap my mind around Mr. Chavez. On one hand he's been giving the Northern U.S. cheap heating oil, and God knows I loves me some Socialism. But I keep hearing disturbing rumors. And his rhetoric is a touch more bombastic than it really needs to be. I feel like every time he opens his mouth he's losing friends.

I do think it's interesting that all of the anti-leftist action of the 70's and 80's accomplished little more than turning angry young militant socialists into older successful socialist politicians.

But honestly, I'm from the non-Latin Americas. I'm curious what the general feeling is in the Southern Hemisphere.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
21:55 / 25.01.07
"I swear by Christ - the greatest socialist in history."

I'd also like to know more about his connection with Liberation theology? Is his intention Christian Socialism?

Read a few newspaper articles about Chavez asking "to rule by decree". Being an anti-authoritarian pacifist I'd worry about a Dictatorship whether Left or Right.
 
 
pacha perplexa
11:21 / 26.01.07
To answer Lekvar (short answer, sorry - I'll try to write a little more later):

General feeling in the South Hemisphere is confusion. The newspaper and TV presses of most countries here have been portraying Chávez as a dictator. Funny thing is that he's got the support of pretty much everyone in the poorer sections of the country, especially indians. So there's something good going on for these people, I think, despite Chávez's populist aura.

Another person that deserves attention is Evo Morales, from Bolivia. A cousin of mine recently returned from the country and said there's a huge change going on there, as everyone he's spoken to seems to be very politicized. They know exactly what the country needs to be more developed and fair, and they know they DON'T want neoliberalism anywhere near them. Anyway, my cousin's view.
 
 
pacha perplexa
11:24 / 26.01.07
Aaah, sorry! Quantum had mentioned Evo, I hadn't seen it. Gotta return to this thread later.
 
 
pacha perplexa
13:57 / 13.02.07
Bumping the thread because it's still very interesting.

There was some concern, from what I read on the thread, that Chavez would start a dictatorship based on populism, just like in many countries in Latin America during the cold war.

I've been reading loads of articles about this to try and understand what is he really about, and despite all the bashing from big media companies in Brazil against him or Evo, quite a clear picture could be formed.

Chavez wants to nationalize strategical companies - oil, electricity, telecoms - by buying them, not appropriating them, as I heard many paople say. He's also on his way to stop the autonomy of the Central Bank of Venezuela (Central Bank autonomies are something that the IMF absolutely loves). This would be a way to defend against a possible foreing military invasion (guess who).

There's a catch many newspapers (at least in Brazil) fail to report: he intends to share ownership of companies on the verge of bankruptcy among workers of the same.

This, alone, isn't enough to say that his government is focused on the collectiveness, or on "the social". But Venezuelan budget for 2007 is 45% destined to social programs, including 4 billion dollars that will go to local community councils responsible for social projects.

I don't think this has ever happened in Latin America.

He does sound authoritarian, though. He's governing via decree-laws which need no approval of congress to pass, saying it'll speed up the process of making Venezuela a socialist country. Still, if we consider the way corporations use lobbies to control congresses (this is very usual in Brazil), it doesn't sound much worse.

The threats to freedom of speech, as far as the sources I read go, seem imaginary. One example is RCTV, a TV station which openly supported the coup against him in 2002 and was never censored. It made propaganda anti-Chavez during the elections, which is something inconstitutional, as far as TV concessions are concerned. The only punishment it faced was the non-renewal of its concession for 20 years. It kept its studios, equipment and installations and still has the right to transmit content on cable TV. TV stations in Brazil and the US have gone untouched for worst crimes.

Still waiting for more results of Chavez's government. So far, it looks ok to me.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:30 / 14.02.07
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised is a great sort of introduction to Chavez (well, it was the first I had heard of him...), and shows the misinformation and media bias around him.

The movie can be seen online here. (Chavezthefilm.com seems to have been taken over by squatters...)

Like Levkar said above, he seems as decent as political leaders go (and more concerned with the poor than previous governments), but the rhetoric gets tiresome and annoys me...

Is it a sign that the USA has lost interest in Central and South America that people like Chavez and Morales can get elected without having to fear sanctions and coups? (ok, there was the attempted coup, but still...)
 
 
Gamera
21:35 / 02.03.07
Is it a sign that the USA has lost interest in Central and South America that people like Chavez and Morales can get elected without having to fear sanctions and coups? (ok, there was the attempted coup, but still...)

This AP article immediately came to mind:

U.S. Urges Fairness in CANTV Takeover
Thursday January 25, 8:53 pm ET
By Christopher Toothaker, Associated Press Writer
U.S. Ambassador to Venezuela Urges Fair Compensation in CANTV Nationalization


CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- President Hugo Chavez's government must pay U.S. companies and investors a fair price for their shares of Venezuela's largest telephone company when it is nationalized, the U.S. ambassador to Venezuela said Thursday.

William Brownfield told local Union Radio the planned takeover of CA Nacional de Telefonos, or CANTV, should proceed "in a transparent, legal manner" and that Venezuela's government must offer "fair and quick compensation to the people who are affected or the owners."

"These are the only obligations that a government has when it decides to nationalize an industry," he added.

Virginia-based Verizon Communications Inc. holds the largest minority share of CANTV, which was privatized in 1991. The takeover jeopardizes an agreement by Verizon to sell its 28.5 percent stake in CANTV to a joint venture of America Movil and Telefonos de Mexico SA, controlled by Mexican billionaire Carlos Slim.


So basically, the US is still engaged in the Americas to the extent that private US economic interests are implicated, otherwise, not so much. I love the implication that the Venezuelan government is in effect bound by US corporate and property law.
 
 
grant
14:43 / 09.03.07
Bush is currently touring South & Central America, trying to convince people that a/he's not so bad, b/Chavez isn't all that, and c/ Latin America still matters to the U.S.

It's not turning out so well....

GUATEMALA CITY - Mayan priests will purify a sacred archaeological site to eliminate "bad spirits" after
President Bush visits next week, an official with close ties to the group said Thursday.

...On Monday morning [Bush] is scheduled to visit the archaeological site Iximche on the high western plateau in a region of the Central American country populated mostly by Mayans.

Tiney said the "spirit guides of the Mayan community" decided it would be necessary to cleanse the sacred site of "bad spirits" after Bush's visit so that their ancestors could rest in peace. He also said the rites — which entail chanting and burning incense, herbs and candles — would prepare the site for the third summit of Latin American Indians March 26-30.

Bush's trip has already has sparked protests elsewhere in Latin America, including protests and clashes with police in Brazil hours before his arrival. In Bogota, Colombia, which Bush will visit on Sunday, 200 masked students battled 300 riot police with rocks and small homemade explosives.
 
 
pacha perplexa
01:18 / 11.03.07
GUATEMALA CITY - Mayan priests will purify a sacred archaeological site to eliminate "bad spirits" after
President Bush visits next week, an official with close ties to the group said Thursday.


This is brilliant.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
22:46 / 14.03.07
Interestingly enough, I was reading recently that in a phone poll in Argentina, Brazil and (Uruguay? I can't remember the article exactly, nor find it), Bush and Chavez both had very low approval ratings from the average-joe-with-a-phone (money) set in Latin America.

I wish I could find that article again.
 
 
el d.
13:46 / 16.03.07
In related news:

Chavez unifies parties

Judging from the postings in here, I hold these news to be quite new: Chavez plans to unify all pro-chavez parties into one big "Unified socialist party" (PSUV, Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela). His own, MVR, is the biggest of the lot, but the socialist PODEMOS and the Communists have nation-wide organizations which are a force to be reckoned with, and they don´t like the idea of being dissolved.

Ismael García, secretary-general of Podemos, stated that Podemos "does not and will not take part in any move advocating one single thought, because Venezuela is a diverse, plural society."

The responses of the government were quick and quite disturbing: García was called a "traitor" and "counter-revolutionary", accusations which couldn´t be falser ( García was one of those with Chávez during the attempted coup on his presidency)
Following this medial bashing, García was quick to announce that he wasn´t against the PSUV, only against the PSUV as a unified party with unified thougts.

With the communists, the development´s similar: Jerónimo Carrera announced on the 5th of march that the communist party wouldn´t dissolve - if the new party didn´t meet their standards of a revolutionary workers party.

It will be interesting to see how this develops, but somehow I fear that the battle for some kind of transcendance of the mistakes of the past has already been lost.
 
 
Pops Sir Real
16:19 / 25.03.07
I like a lot of what Chavez seems to be doing. Lots of uplift and lifeline programs for his citizens, lots of outreach on political/material/economic levels to other nations. I think it's good for American nations to have another place to turn to that's not the U.S. That said, I know someone who knows someone who lives in Caracas, and there are some credible and nasty rumors coming from there about dissenters and opponents getting beaten up and disappearing. It's hard to get a read on this b/c Chavez is such an inflammatory figure, most news outlets seem to take their facts from either pro- or anti- sources.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:32 / 28.05.07
There's an article with links on BoingBoing about Chavez shutting down a TV station that was critical of him and it's replacement by a channel that will be more positive. From the Reuters article mentioned it does seem as though an argument might be made that the old channel supported the old guard that Chavez replaced, but equally it could be said that this is just yer usual Socialist dictator stifling legitimate dissent.
 
 
sleazenation
21:25 / 28.05.07
While these actions are far from good, to put it mildly I think it is muddy thinking to claim Chavez is a dictator because of them. Chavez was elected. You might have problems with his policies, or even the mechanics of democracy (in general or in Venezuela in particular), but it isn't particularly accurate or elicidating to call him a dictator.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:29 / 29.05.07
I haven't actually come to a decision either way, I don't know enough about Chavez. However, shutting down a TV station and replacing it with another to sing your praises isn't what normally happens in a democracy.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:42 / 29.05.07
For example: The revolution will not be televised.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:33 / 29.05.07
I'm not sure what the phrase "yer usual Socialist dictator" means - which other Socialist dictators were you thinking of?
 
 
bjacques
12:27 / 29.05.07
Boingboing.net covered this. On the face of it, it sounds like Radio Caracas TV was arbitrarily struck off the air for making one anti-Chavez comment too many, and that's how the station (predictably) are presenting it. Actually, its latest broadcasting license expired after 20 years and was not renewed. RCTV can still transmit over cable and maintain a website.

Venezuela, like many countries, licenses broadcast frequencies. Stations don't have a right to the airwaves, even if one has had it for 50+ years.

Chavez is no sweetheart, but it looks he followed the law here. RCTV were notorious for supporting the CIA-backed coup in 2002. If I remember correctly, they showed footage of a rebel sniper but claimed he worked for the Chavez government. In comparison, Fox/Sky News have seriously damaged democracy in at least three English-speaking countries, but have never openly supported armed overthrow of the government.

Chavez could possibly have brought the personnel of RCTV up on treason charges right after the coup fizzled. Instead, he just let their broadcasting license expire. Sounds reasonable to me.
 
 
bjacques
12:38 / 29.05.07
I mean, boingboing.net has some articles on it, so it's a good place to start if you want to get the ultimate story.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:32 / 29.05.07
Yeah, I think it's important to realise that in a world largely controlled by capitalism/the right, anything slightly dodgy that any socialist might do will be blown out of all proportion. There'll be a huge fuss made about one bad decision, which conveniently forgets all the nasty shit everyone else is up to.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:49 / 29.05.07
I'm surprised no-one seems to mind that he's shut down a TV station that disagreed with him, or is the big love-in with him going to last as long as the Manic Street Preachers don't do a concert in Caracas?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:24 / 29.05.07
Didja read bjacques' post?
 
 
predius
02:18 / 30.05.07
Chavez could possibly have brought the personnel of RCTV up on treason charges right after the coup fizzled. Instead, he just let their broadcasting license expire. Sounds reasonable to me.

So, instead of taking them to court, he uses a really cheatish way to get them off the air, under the rhetoric that the public airwaves are the people's and therefore the state has the right to kick whoever they feel is being a bit mean to them.

If they had broken the law in any way, then sure, sue them. They didn't. Just as if they had voiced their opposition for another candidate during the elections, there is nothing illegal about voicing their opposition to Chavez during the days he was deposed.

At least this removes the second of the two defenses that the Venezuelans usually brought up when a regional government called them autocratic:
  1. That they don't have any political prisoners. (They do now, just call them "politician prisoners" because they were involved in politics)

  2. They haven't closed any media centre. (Might be legal to rescind the renewal of the license, it's still a shady move)

At least the "red tide" is over now. Lula is not really red, Uribe is still in power in Colombia, Obrador lost in Mexico, García wins in Perú, and Bachelet continues in Chile.

Morales' also losing support from his own people and going more moderate as time goes by. Hope the bad nightmare will be over soon, it's getting annoying more than worrying.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:24 / 30.05.07
Hugo Chávez condemned Venezuela's last remaining opposition-aligned TV station yesterday, two days after pulling the plug on another critical broadcaster. The president called cable news channel Globovisión an enemy of the state, and accused it of fomenting violence and attempts to assassinate him.

"Enemies of the homeland, particularly those behind the scenes, I will give you a name: Globovisión. Greetings gentlemen of Globovisión. You should watch where you are going," he said, in a speech all stations were obliged to air... "I recommend they take a tranquiliser, that they slow down, because if not, I'm going to slow them down."

...Communications minister Willian Lara asked prosecutors to investigate Globovisión for inciting attempts to kill Mr Chávez, citing its airing of footage of the 1981 assassination attempt against John Paul II in Rome accompanied by This Does Not Stop Here, a salsa song by Ruben Blades, now Panama's tourism minister. In Venezuela's political climate this was a coded message to kill Mr Chávez, said Mr Lara, adding that he had consulted semiologists. "The conclusion of the specialists is that [in this segment] they are inciting the assassination of the president," he told a press conference.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:33 / 30.05.07
I'm surprised no-one seems to mind that he's shut down a TV station that disagreed with him

Who has said that they don't mind?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
07:33 / 30.05.07
While I'm sure there are dodgy things the Venezuelan government can be criticised for, I don't really see how this is one of them. It seems to me that the democratically elected government have shown a more than reasonable regard for the rule of the law in this issue. I mean I find it hard to imagine many democratic governments would wait for the stations licence to expire before taking some serious steps if said station have provided strong support for a serious coup attempt against said democratic government. In waiting several years for the regularly scheduled expiry of the station's licence the Venezuelan government seems to have gone out of it's way to ensure that it's actions on this issue are reasonably above reproach.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
20:16 / 30.05.07
Just as if they had voiced their opposition for another candidate during the elections, there is nothing illegal about voicing their opposition to Chavez during the days he was deposed.

Can you name a country where supporting military coups against the democratically elected government is entirely legal?

As Tarnished Things, Once Shiny said, I certainly accept that there are a lot of things that Chavez can be criticised for. But I don't think that hostility to those who tried to overthrow him is quite the extreme policy you present it as.
 
 
predius
11:41 / 31.05.07
Can you name a country where supporting military coups against the democratically elected government is entirely legal?

If what RCTV did was illegal, then get them in a trial with OEA supervision, do not try to find a witty way to get them off the air.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
13:08 / 31.05.07
You may well be technically correct in stating that the actions of RCTV during the coup are not against Venezuelan law as it stands - however I think it's important to remember that those laws were by and large determined by the rich and powerful of Venezuela - and in the interests of capital. Very much the same forces who initiated the coup, in fact.

The current government of Venezuela has shown some encouraging signs of making progress in rebalancing those laws in favour of the people, but it's long process, and it remains to be seen how dedicated to and capable of completing such changes the current Venezuelan government is.

And of course one should remember that were Venezuela a dictatorship then it would have been a simple thing just to change any inconvenient laws and take the station of the air immediately after the coup failed, or at least neuter it. In fact I'm sure many democracies would have done likewise. For example see the neutering of the BBC in Britain after they raised some legitimate concerns which detracted from the British Governments case for the Iraq War for instance.
 
 
bjacques
13:25 / 31.05.07
Of course goes and Chavez kicks another station off the air after I make excuses for the first time. Well, I stand pretty much by my last post. I have no comment about the second one, except that his language is less virulent than, say, the US right's against non-coup-supporting media in the States.

Note to the right: if you'd cared more about our freedom of expression the last 6 years, we might care more about yours now. We do care, in principle, but can't get worked up over it just yet.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:01 / 01.06.07
'When they came for the right-wingers I said nothing, for I was too busy enjoying the boot being on the other foot'?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:30 / 01.06.07
Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Godwin's Law does not dispute whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of the Nazi/Hitler comparison should be avoided, as it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions, the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply