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Do you think it would be possible to make a genuinely entertaining non-misogynous, non-chauvinist, non-xenophobic, non-embarassingly condescending men's magazine?

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
13:12 / 10.01.07
Do you think it would be possible to make a genuinely entertaining non-misogynous, non-chauvinist, non-xenophobic, non-embarassingly condescending men's magazine?

...asked someone on ilxor. So, what do you think?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:29 / 10.01.07
Do you think it would be possible to make a genuinely entertaining non-misogynous, non-chauvinist, non-xenophobic, non-embarassingly condescending men's magazine?

Do you think it would be possible to make a genuinely entertaining non-misandric, non-selfappearance-hating, beauty-tips-free, non-cliquey, non-celebrity-worshipping, and altogether not lepra-inducingly boring women's magazine?

...
But seriously..
I think the question is slightly bollocks. I agree that loads of "men's mags" are somewhat all of the above-mentioned - misogynist, xenophobic etc. But not all. I submit MAKE mag as an example.

~~~hears knives being drawn from sheaths~~~
 
 
Saturn's nod
13:34 / 10.01.07
Do you think it would be possible to make a genuinely entertaining non-misandric, non-selfappearance-hating, beauty-tips-free, non-cliquey, non-celebrity-worshipping, and altogether not lepra-inducingly boring women's magazine?

You mean like Ms?

As for the thread topic: would you count New Statesman as a candidate?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:39 / 10.01.07
Hey, Saturn, I'll have to check out Ms. further as I've never seen it before. Looks very interesting though. Further to my somewhat arsy, snide post - I don't believe all women's mags are as per my description. Neither do I believe all men's mags are as hinted at in the opening post.

And although I intermittently enjoy New Statesman, I wouldn't dare to brazenly label it a men's mag. I don't read it enough to have an informed opinion.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:47 / 10.01.07
Hello again. As you will have seen, my opening topic is a bit sparse, but you've both brought up interesting points. It shows how pernicious this stuff is that I had never considered the implication of "New Statesman" as a title...
 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:51 / 10.01.07
[threadrot]
Haha! Shall we launch a petition to have them change their name to New Statesperson? Or what about New Statesentity?
[end threadrot]
 
 
Saturn's nod
14:14 / 10.01.07
It's funny you should mention that, I'd probably read it regularly if it wasn't labelled as a men's magazine. Perhaps that's a conditioned gender hangup I need to get over.
 
 
Sax
14:35 / 10.01.07
Why does it have to be a men's mag? Can't it just be a genuinely entertaining mag?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
14:59 / 10.01.07
I'd argue that the UK GQ Style (as opposed to UK GQ monthly) is a good example of a non-misogynistic etc men's magazine. It's grown up without being boring, and has some good writing from the likes of Michael Bracewell, Hanif Kureshi, Charlie Porter etc.
 
 
Janean Patience
07:56 / 02.08.07
I was surprised to find in this month's FHM, which is apparently under new management, an essay about the danger of internet pornography and the changes it makes to your perception of sex and women. The writer of the first-person piece discussed the way frequent use of porn made him behave sexually, a partner his porn-star behaviour frightened, and concluded that the majority of pornography isn't about sex but about violence against women.

Not earth-shattering conclusions obviously but certainly unusual in the lad-mag sector, where articles about girlfriends and porn are more often about how to a) get her to watch it and b) get her to behave like the women in it. Cynically, I'm wondering if FHM are expecting some kind of governmental crackdown and have tailored their content accordingly. The lad-mag sector has become top-shelf-with-knickers recently and there's growing concern about how this is affecting the adolescent readership. The issue's cover star is Rachel Stephens and the pictures of her offer much less nudity than usual.

So, groundbreaking? An attempt to forestall censorship? And how is this piece likely to be greeted by FHM readers?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:49 / 02.08.07
That is interesting. I think there's a danger that all that will happen is a reinforcement of the duality that exists in many people’s minds wherein “pornography” = all that bad stuff they would never actually look at, whereas the stuff they do like to look at (pictures of Rachel Stevens in her pants) is something else, just a bit of fun, etc. Ideally I’d like society’s relationship with porn to be more sophisticated than that. But I’m probably putting the cart before the horse. Getting people to acknowledge some of the potential problems with viewing pornography, specifically the kind of extreme pornography that one can almost blunder into on the internet without trying, is a good point - done right, it isn’t just scaremongering, because I think there are real risks that come from porn that at the least inspires an urge to do some BDSM without educating people about basic precautions like safewords, and at worst contains a worrying amount of unmistakably genuine vicious woman-hating.

Going back to the original question – I think the basic problem is that even before you get on to the other undesirable attributes of most men’s magazines as listed in the thread title, the whole idea of a men’s magazine depends on binary gender essentialism. So you’d have to start by acknowledging that masculinity is performative. But I think you’d have to acknowledge that this wasn’t even a magazine just for men even if “men” was defined in its broadest sense – ‘cos even if it’s for the trannybois as well, I think the idea of a magazine that says “here is some STUFF that MEN like and that defines us as MEN” is kind of… annoyingly reductive. You’d have to make it clear that this was just a magazine about STUFF that has traditionally been seen as associated with masculinity, but doesn’t have to be. That sounds awfully high-faultin’ crazy academic gender theory gone mad, but it doesn’t have to be – you can express it in totally different terms, and make it insanely cool. Cars, hair gel, cigars, black shirts, Johnny Cash – oh bollocks, this is a rockabilly zine, isn’t it? Well, I guess it would be timely.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
09:42 / 02.08.07
Well ... there's your pitch to IPC, I guess.

In the first issue, you could have somebody interview Dita Von Tease, Hugh from the Stranglers, Jeremy Clarkson, Fiddy, Alex 'cheese' James, The Game and The Cramps. They could discuss their love of vintage cars, soul food, Les Paul guitars, cuban cocktails and James Brown (not the Loaded editor!) Bono, if you were lucky, might be persuaded to put in a word or two thousand on James' behalf. No books would be reviewed, unless they were biographies of Joe Strummer. Miranda Sawyer could write a column about being a 'blokey, cokey bird', and how she's tired of all that, now that she's living in the Cotswolds. Toby Young could turn in a sparkling thousand words per issue about how awful it is to be him.

Rankin could do the photos.

Of interesting people he's met recently. Style-leaders.

It could be called 'Rebel Yell'
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:58 / 02.08.07
Yes, well, when you put it like that it sounds shit. It's easy to mock, isn't it, and tread on other people's dreams and hopes for a better future, and then go back to reading Uncut...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:32 / 02.08.07
B-but it would be a success ...

Trent Reznor on a quest for the best Belgian lager. Amy Winehouse having a frank exchange of views with Julie Burchill. James 'sex' Marsters on sex, rock and roll, sex, and so forth. Bobby Gillespie being asked, by Barbara Ellen (who was 'a disappointment' apparently, back in the day) why he decided to give his children names that pretty much guarantee they're going to have a rough time at school.

'Jarvis Cocker - Shitfaced in France!' etc.
 
 
Janean Patience
11:18 / 02.08.07
I think there's a danger that all that will happen is a reinforcement of the duality that exists in many people’s minds wherein “pornography” = all that bad stuff they would never actually look at, whereas the stuff they do like to look at (pictures of Rachel Stevens in her pants) is something else.

I didn't exactly study the piece and it isn't around now, but from what I remember the guy, while discussing extreme pornography and gonzo porn, was quite careful to include all porn in his condemnation. He wasn't just saying that the internet can lead you into watching some extremely dodgy filth, and that this can affect your sexual behaviour. He was saying that using a great deal of pornography changes your sexual attitudes and behaviour, and whether you realise it or not you adopt misogynist attitudes and a pattern of sexual behaviour that's based on sexual violence. He brought up the apparently common expectancy, fed by porn and lad mags, that a good girlfriend should be up for anal while even five years ago it was still viewed as an extreme sexual act. Basically it was a piece in the leading lad mag, and the one that led the stampede toward more female nudity and salacious editorials, condemning what lad mags have become.

The angle on the piece about Rachel Stevens is that the writer is going to LA and going to try to pull her. Not exactly progressive, but it's actually not a badly-written piece which is more reminiscent of Loaded's early days. Compared to the approach that's been taken recently - Do you like having big breasts? Are you up for a bit of lesbian action? Do you use your breasts a lot during sex? - it's fucking Tolstoy.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:39 / 02.08.07
It is good that FHM were willing to host that article - although as Flyboy says the stuff in FHM tends to be thought of as "just a bit of fun" as opposed to "pornography", when actually it's probably got just as many potential problems associated with it as the internet stuff. The same could be said for Suicide Girls and Hollywood films. We talked about this in that thread about "Eroticism vs Pornography", which I would link to if I wasn't in a public library.

What I was going to ask here was, now that the makers of Hollyoaks have, applaudably, decided to run a story-line about anorexia and its links to the modelling industry (and indeed has run similar stories in the past), how does that sit with the propensity for Hollyoaks actresses (of their own accord or, more likely, through provocation) to appear in FHM/GQ etc photo-spreads? Do the magazines and general industry undo the good work (?) of the television program?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
12:36 / 02.08.07
I don't read magazines that often, but Details was one I always liked when I picked it up at a friends' place to leaf through. I can't speak to a lack of subtle misogyny or xenophobia, but it certainly wasn't all bikinis and "smash the foreigners."
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
17:27 / 02.08.07
Really?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
17:34 / 02.08.07
Oh. Like I said, I haven't read it in years and had a fuzzy memory of it being okay, or at least less overtly horrible than other men's mags. I'm not Details Fan #1 here to fly the flag or anything.
 
 
grant
18:22 / 03.08.07
Define: "Men's Magazine."
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:00 / 03.08.07
I had a go at getting to the heart of what that would have to mean to be progressive a few posts above, grant.
 
 
grant
23:08 / 03.08.07
Yeah, I know - I found myself kind of wanting to read a copy of Rebel Yell then felt a little guilty about it.

I was wondering if there was another way to define the medium, though.

I'm not sure there is, but maybe.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:17 / 03.08.07
I'm slightly saddened that no one's asked me what Bobby Gillespies children are called, yet.
 
 
grant
02:29 / 04.08.07
Gunther, Gladys, Gareth and Grant, yes?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
04:00 / 04.08.07
Good choices!

The situation's arguably a bit more severe than that, though.

They're boys, both of them, and one of their names begins with 'W', and the other with 'L'.

To narrow the field a bit, Bobby Gillespie has not called one of his sons Lucifer, but it wasn't through lack of trying.
 
 
Organic Resident
21:39 / 04.08.07
I'm not a reader of 'men's' magazines, though I did buy an issue of loaded as it claimed to have an interview with Hunter Thompson in it but it wasn't a proper interview at all. I felt cheated. My view would be yes it is possible but why bother aiming a magazine at just men? It's only because of the desire to create a market that it happens. I subscribe to 6 magazines, 3 newstand (private eye, Fortean Times and the Wire) and 3 more obscure ones, magonia, notes from the borderland and white dragon. I can't see me buying a magazine aimed solely at men.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:05 / 11.09.07
I wonder if FHM's new management, mentioned above, is as a result of this. While the issue in question was April 2007, the paper's response is still rather weak - "she looked 18, guv, but fair enough we'll say sorry" doesn't quite cut it for me. How about "clearly we must stop encouraging a monstrous culture of exploitation which basically takes the view that any man's live-in girlfriend is his personal property and has no right to her own privacy"?

FHM said it received around 1,200 photos of women either topless or wearing lingerie for publication each week. It added that it was "extremely surprised" to learn that the girl was 14 "as she certainly appeared to be older", the PCC reported in its ruling today.

"The magazine had been informed that the complainants' daughter was in a cohabiting relationship with the person who submitted the photograph and, in those circumstances, no further enquiries about the image were made," said the PCC.

"Nonetheless, the magazine - which had introduced new measures to ensure that the situation would not occur again - confirmed that the image would not be republished or syndicated and offered to write a private letter of apology to the complainant."
 
 
Janean Patience
13:15 / 11.09.07
Fairly astonishing that FHM didn't make any effort to contact the subject of the picture and get her permission, something that local papers manage every day, but it's not made headlines and I doubt it's got much to do with the shift in their editorial position.

I still think there's a large-scale crackdown coming and they've got advance word. Either that or they're losing the pre-pubescent audience to the weeklys, which charge much less for the same naked breasts, and they're trying to reposition themselves upmarket. Loaded has 50 Cent on the cover, which is IIRC the first time they've had a man on the cover for five years or so, which again suggests some shift in the lad mag market to me.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:49 / 11.09.07
In all fairness to the Loaded editorial team, fiddy does have a hotty on each arm in the cover shot. Plus, it seems as if he's made quite a lot of money in a short space of time.
 
 
Janean Patience
20:08 / 11.09.07
The fact that 50 and his honeyz signals even a slight move away from the market's hitherto uniform presentation of women-as-sex-objects shows how desperate these magazines have become. It's a staring contest, where no mag wanted to blink by being the first to have anything but a heavy-breasted glamour model on the front in case they were the one that lost market share. So 50's appearance could be the smallest chink of light and a harbinger of that period ending... or possibly not.
 
 
grant
20:35 / 11.09.07
They published photographs of topless women without knowing their provenance or getting model releases signed?

That's... speaking as someone in the business, now... that's not merely morally wrong, it's incredibly stupid.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:39 / 11.09.07
Well, it signifies the shift that has gone on in the "men's magazine" market in the past decade, from lifestyle magazines to crypto-gonzo-porn...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:16 / 12.09.07
It shows how pernicious this stuff is that I had never considered the implication of "New Statesman" as a title...

This is off topic but New Statesman was founded in 1913 and was only briefly renamed as New Statesman and Society when it merged with another political magazine. It's name is a hang up from another era but it's a brand name so isn't going to be changed anytime soon. Honestly it's not a men's magazine in any sense, though the subscription base probably falls more on the male than female side statistically. You could argue that it's pernicious but equally you could argue that you didn't think of it because it's more a brand logo than a gender reference in 2007.

Do you think it would be possible to make a genuinely entertaining non-misogynous, non-chauvinist, non-xenophobic, non-embarassingly condescending men's magazine?

Sort of but if it's a men's magazine then it's aimed at men and you're basically left with a magazine that will generalise men because you're expecting them to be interested in the subjects you write about. Good magazines that are all of the above tend to be aimed at topics or areas of interest rather than groups of people. If you go to a shop and pick up a magazine like Diva you'll still find it riddled with generalisations because it's aimed at lesbians and has to broadly guess at topics that all/most lesbians will be specifically interested in and that means there's a certain level of stereotyping involved.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:44 / 12.09.07
It's tangentially relevant, but I had to share a wonderful moment from the Today program on the launch of the new Nuts TV channel. The interviewee had claimed that everything Nuts did came from a place of love and respect for women, which was met with raised audio eyebrows and the citation of "assess my breasts", a feature in which headless torsos sent in by the public were given marks out of ten. Clarifying, the interviewee came out with the deathless phrase:

"There's a big difference between breasts on a page, or breasts on a web site, and breasts on live TV."
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:17 / 12.09.07
FHM said it received around 1,200 photos of women either topless or wearing lingerie for publication each week. It added that it was "extremely surprised" to learn that the girl was 14 "as she certainly appeared to be older", the PCC reported in its ruling today.

This itself is disgusting (think of the fucking torture that the girl's going to go through at school), and beyond this those features where they encourage their readers to send in pictures of their girlfriends are pretty repugnant too.
 
  

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