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The disability-friendliness of Barbelith

 
 
Elettaria
15:23 / 09.01.07
I’ve noticed that disability comes up in a few threads here, but that it’s not one of the big topics, such as gender, which are under continual discussion. I think Barbelith is a great place, but I’d like to make a few observations and suggestions. Of course, I am by no means representative of all people with disabilities, nor will I have thought of everything or necessarily come up with the best solutions. As I'm speaking for my own experience here, I should say that I’ve got ME/CFIDS and Meares-Irlen Syndrome, and I’m mostly principally having problems here with vision, memory and matters of behaviour/etiquette.

Visual layout

While it’s possible to set browsers to override a site’s layout, I find that it most often makes the site harder to read, mainly because the entire screen ends up with the same colour background, increasing glare and difficulty in navigation. (However, it might be useful for those of you who don’t want to make it obvious you’re on Barbelith at work.) I’d particularly welcome thoughts on this matter from anyone who is blind, partially sighted or dyslexic. Generally, the site is doing pretty well.

Good points:

• Simplicity and elegance of design.
• Black text on plain pastel background is usually very easy to read in terms of contrast, as is the system of alternating two shades of the same colour for comments.
• Having a different colour for each forum facilitates remembering what occurred where.
• Text box width for threads is about right, tracking from the end of one line to the next works well even if your eyes are especially bad at it, as mine are.

Room for improvement:

• The white page background produces glare. I’d suggest black, a dark version of the forum colour, or a very simple pattern in toning dark colours.
• Some of the individual forum background colours could be a smidgen lighter to improve contrast.
• Since the range of colours improves navigation and remembrance, it would be great to wring one or two more out of the rainbow. There are currently four fora in grey and I find that they blur together in my memory, mainly Conversation and Policy.
• The “Reply” page puts the thread summary text down a size, making it harder to read, and it’s a little smaller, or at least more cramped-looking, than the reply box. If you increase the font size of the whole page, the text in the reply box in particular becomes uncomfortably large. It would read more easily if the thread summary text was the same size as elsewhere and the font used for both boxes was the same. It would also help if it were possible to see the thread while replying.
• The font is not the greatest, though it’s pretty good. It comes up a little small and cramped (but too large when the overall page font size is increased), italics are difficult to read, and large stretches in bold are hard on the eyes.

Thread layout and structure

Good points:

• It’s easy to see what’s currently under discussion, and threads can keep going indefinitely, which keeps a wealth of discussion on the same subject condensed in one space.
• The linear format often helps to keep threads from straying wildly off-topic.

Room for improvement:

• The board seems geared towards the long-standing members. It takes a very long time to get to know your way around, requiring powers of memory that some of us just don’t have.
• There is no effective, permanently visible way of knowing what’s been discussed and where, unless you’re a long-standing member who can remember all of the discussions and/or are prepared to spend hours working through old threads to find something. Since it’s frowned upon to start a thread on a topic that’s already been discussed, I suspect I’m not the only one refraining from starting new topics because I’m afraid I’ll do this by accident (a bit like the fear of accidental plagiarism in academia). The search function doesn’t help much, unless you’re looking for a specific word which is very rarely used. I just put “coming out” into the search and got 7420 results, which doesn’t tell me if there’s currently a thread on the politics of different types of coming out (e.g. as queer, disabled, Jewish). I know that there’s a thread somewhere where you can ask if a topic’s been covered, but it’s not easily accessible, rarely used and you still have to rely on people’s memories.
• Threads sooner or later tend to cover a variety of sub-topics, which is a good thing, but the linear design makes it much harder to follow the twists and turns of conversation, especially since there are usually cross-posts and different strands being discussed simultaneously. There’s no way of bookmarking sub-topics. Branching designs, such as that used by Livejournal, are much easier to navigate, though that’s probably too major a change for here. This problem is made worse by the fact that:
• Threads get very long indeed, and members are usually expected to read the whole thing, remembering what was said and who said it, before they comment. It can take hours of reading to get through a thread, by which time I’ve forgotten a fair amount of it, let alone keeping track of the people involved. Picking up on a point that came up earlier in a thread can be very difficult when you’ve had to go on and read the rest of the thread, and you then can’t find the point you wanted to respond to.

Writing style and etiquette

Good points:

• It is customary and strongly encouraged for members to write in well-argued English with correct spelling, punctuation and grammar. This is much easier to read. I frequently have to ignore posts on other boards because I can’t get through the endless sentences, textspeak and “LOL”s every other word, which is frustrating when I actually want to read them despite their poor style.
• Discussions are lively, intellectual and often of a higher standard than I’ve seen on any other board.

Room for improvement:

• It is customary and strongly encouraged for members to write in well-argued English with correct spelling, punctuation and grammar. If you don’t, you may be mocked, sometimes quite unpleasantly. I’m always worried that someone’s going to leap on me for a typo or muddled sentence, especially since editing is difficult (though the threads would be chaos if people were self-editing all the time, I do realise that), and I wouldn’t fancy being dyslexic on this board.
• Paragraphs are frequently very long indeed, and thus harder for anyone with visual or concentration problems to get through. Shorter paragraphs, with subject headings in bold if appropriate, are much easier to read and make page navigation easier.
• As well as the expectation that someone joining a conversation will be able to catch up with twelve pages of previous discussion, which neither my eyes nor my concentration can handle, there is a custom of directing people towards links so that they can be better-informed, and expecting them to read them before they can participate in the discussion further. This works beautifully when it’s something short, but all too often it’s hours of reading. For example, I recently saw a thread where someone linked a thirty-nine page, poorly formatted PDF document, with no suggestions as to which sections were useful, where a simple definition of a few lines was what was really required. A while ago somebody jumped on me for making a harmless analogy which was apparently not favoured here, linked me to several long threads, and then bit my head off when I protested that I didn’t have time to wade through all of that. This was the point at which I left the board for a while.

General stuff

• The board isn’t particularly personal, which has its good points and its bad points. People don’t have blogs, as in some board systems, individual profile pages, as in others, or even avatars, which help with visual recognition. Combined with the facility to change your name every month, this makes it incredibly difficult to remember who is who and also makes it harder to keep track of what is being said where, especially if you’re not visiting the board on a very regular basis. Perhaps something like a profile page for each member, where all of the names that member had used so far would be listed? It’s particularly awkward when reading older threads where someone is referred to by a name they’re not using any more. Avatars help as well, though if neither names nor avatars are constant it would be confusing. On LiveJournal, for example, names are constant but avatars can be changed, which is occasionally confusing but usually memorable enough that you can keep track of people.
• The quality of discussion here is often very high, which is what I love most about this board. However, there’s a lot of aggression flying about, and I am constantly surprised at the level of rudeness which seems to be acceptable. This is going to be particularly off-putting to anyone who is lacking in confidence due to the reasons I’ve outlined above, or someone with mental health problems. Same goes for the bias towards long-standing members.
• Blake Head pointed out that there isn’t yet a Disability 101 on this board. I think this is an excellent suggestion, and I’m seconding it, though I’d prefer it if someone with more board experience were to set it up.

Don’t get me wrong, this is a great board. But for me, it’s a nightmare to navigate, I spend huge amounts of time being lost, it requires an enormous level of commitment just to keep up and it’s exhausting to do so, I’ve been around for months and I still don’t have a clue who most people are, and I’m still finding it intimidating in ways I think are needless. I realise that much of this may not be changeable, and some of it is the flip side of the things which make this board so good, and I also gather that there are problems with changing any coding. Some of it is a matter of taste or reflects the spread of members: again as in academia, the board feels very male-dominated, for example in the tendencies towards aggressive argument and away from the personal. I think it’s worth discussing, at least.
 
 
grant
16:28 / 09.01.07
I still don’t have a clue who most people are

Heh -- it used to be that this was part of the project of Barbelith. It was confusing, but it was kind of supposed to be confusing. The idea of having a fluid, flexible identity is wrapped up in the "fictionsuit" concept, and people once upon a time would change their IDs (and posting patterns, even) from week to week. I'm not sure this concept is still part of what Barbelith is about, largely for security reasons.
 
 
Char Aina
17:18 / 09.01.07
I think this is an excellent suggestion, and I’m seconding it, though I’d prefer it if someone with more board experience were to set it up.

i'd really like you to do it, if you feel even slightly able.
i think that your worries are unfounded. i think this thread shows a level of ability that suggests you would be.
if you feel strongly that an established member would be better placed to do it for you, i would urge you to consider another option.
co-authouring with someone behind the scenes would get you the benefit of experience, and asking for advice and edits rather than asking them to take any of the responsibility for you would result in a thread that said what you wanted in a way that you could be confident was approppriate.

it seems to me you have a decent point or two to make, and it also seems like you would be good at articulating them.


as is so often the case with these things, the fear of the thing isnt nearly as bad as the thing itself, and i for one would gladly read over anything you wrote before you posted it.
i realise i may not be your ideal 'old hand'(i'm still a fuckwit noob to many, i'm sure), but i can certainly lend you a harsh critical eye or two behind closed PMs.
i'm sure you could get more intelligent brains than mine on your team, if only you were to ask.
i think the real magic of barbelith (for me, at least) has been in the behind the scenes interactions more than in those on the board itself, and i would urge you to use the resources at your disposal to do this thing that you feel needs done.

if it helps, i think it would be a great idea too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:27 / 09.01.07
I'd also like us to separate "usability" - technical matters - from "what I don't like about Barbelith". Once we get into editorialising about other people's behaviour, rather than standards for posting, I think we lose a lot of utility in the thread.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:32 / 10.01.07
• The board seems geared towards the long-standing members. It takes a very long time to get to know your way around, requiring powers of memory that some of us just don’t have.

I think that this would be something that most long-running message boards would have though. Barbelith's been running since, what 2001? It's built up a history. I don't think it's a matter of the place being geared towards long-standing members rather that, because it's such an extensive place, navigating it requires people to build up some familiarity with the site.

Since it’s frowned upon to start a thread on a topic that’s already been discussed, I suspect I’m not the only one refraining from starting new topics because I’m afraid I’ll do this by accident (a bit like the fear of accidental plagiarism in academia).

I don't know if a specific thread exists but theoretically a poster could ask here in Policy where a new thread should go and if the subject has already been discussed on a separate thread. Alternatively such a thread could go in Conversation for maximum exposure.

• Threads get very long indeed, and members are usually expected to read the whole thing, remembering what was said and who said it, before they comment. It can take hours of reading to get through a thread, by which time I’ve forgotten a fair amount of it, let alone keeping track of the people involved. Picking up on a point that came up earlier in a thread can be very difficult when you’ve had to go on and read the rest of the thread, and you then can’t find the point you wanted to respond to.

Trouble is though that an interesting thread attracts posters. Whilst I'm sympathetic to your difficulties in this respect I don't really want to see a situation where threads are getting rotted up by five different posters all posting the same thing simply because they didn't read the thread.

You're right that it can be tough to get involved in a thread that's gone on for 12+ pages, and again I'm sympathetic to posters who don't read quickly or who have poor memories (Zod knows I can forget that a point was raised back at the start of thread X), but I do feel that it's fair to expect people to have some idea of what has already been discussed in the thread. Otherwise the threads would stretch even further and be even harder to read as the same points are raised again and again well, more so than already happens.

I think toksik makes a valid point about asking for assistance on occasion. One solution could be to quickly see who's been active the whole way through the thread and ask them for a quick summary of points raised so far. It might be a little tough for them to do so (especially if they're also involved in typing their own replies) but still it's a thought.
 
 
Char Aina
13:47 / 10.01.07
because it's such an extensive place, navigating it requires people to build up some familiarity with the site.

i'm not sure that is the whole story.
the navigation of this board is quite different to many other boards, and in some ways harder. if it wasnt for google(which only works after a post has been up about a week, i think), we'd have even less ways to find stuff than we do.
the addition of the 'recently updated' link has made a difference, but we are still way behind some boards.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:56 / 10.01.07
Barbelith's been running since, what 2001? It's built up a history.

The earliest iteration went live in late 1999.
 
 
Spaniel
17:59 / 10.01.07
And the Nexus was around before that.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:35 / 10.01.07
• Since the range of colours improves navigation and remembrance, it would be great to wring one or two more out of the rainbow. There are currently four fora in grey and I find that they blur together in my memory, mainly Conversation and Policy.

That's kind of the point, as far as I can tell - to try and push the focus out of those areas and onto the rest of the board. I don't know that it's worked, mind.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
23:18 / 10.01.07
If there is a genuine wiilingness to address this issue, grant money might be obtained from Arts Council England. Thoughts, Tom?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:25 / 11.01.07
I think that's rather unlikely isn't it? A social website for less than a hundred people who post when they should be out doing something less boring instead getting grant money? Wouldn't that mean we'd have to start wearing ties or something?
 
 
petunia
16:51 / 11.01.07
What? You mean i've been wearing this tie...

fuck
 
 
petunia
17:19 / 11.01.07
On a serious note; i would love it if there were a Disability 101 thread.

The politics of disability, along with ideas of disabled identity interest me greatly and i feel that it is a topic rarely approached in society at large, or even on this board.

I have been itching to get a thread started for quite a while, but i do not really feel that i would be entitled to do so as i am able-bodied.

I could start the thread with a question or two, but as i would be mostly a 'student' in the thread, it feels better that a 'teacher' (ie a disabled person, or a person with learnin' in the area) start the thread; it being a class, like.

But i really want a thread going soon! So (a.) is there a person who would be willing to start the thread or (b.) are my worries of entitlement unfounded?

Also: In response to Elettaria's observations above, could we perhaps add some paragraphs to the 'posting etiquette' wiki page that is linked whenever we go to post?

Would a few suggestions such as 'please be aware that not everybody has access to the levels of memory/interpretation/concentration that you may take for granted; posts that are concise and well-formatted with regular spacing will help others greatly' be useful?

Do people actually read the 'posting etiquette' other than for html tips?
 
 
Char Aina
17:27 / 11.01.07
well, it may be unlikely.
it's certainly impossible without paying attention to acess issues, though.
whether or not barbelith is likely to get a big fat wad of cash to fund the site aside for now, what do people think of barbelith in terms of access? is the site compliant with the various guidlines such as those of the WAI, for example?

could more be done?
 
 
Char Aina
17:29 / 11.01.07
that 'unlikely' was meant to be in response to the fat wads of cash potential.
people reading the etiquette seems unlikely too, mind.
 
 
Ticker
12:32 / 12.01.07
I'm glad to see you posting again Elettaria.

I agree with a lot of your suggestions yet I'm concerned about something you mentioned:

A while ago somebody jumped on me for making a harmless analogy which was apparently not favoured here, linked me to several long threads, and then bit my head off when I protested that I didn’t have time to wade through all of that. This was the point at which I left the board for a while.

I believe you are mentioning this thread? We had this exchange there:

me: I also have to nudge you about :
(I got nudged about it too and it helps to read it)


you:If the starting supposition is that religion is stupid and damaging, then it feels about as friendly as a thread would which was entitled "Your sexual orientation" and went on to star stories of people who were previously gay but journeyed successfully towards heterosexuality and called anyone who was still gay stupid and immoral.

me:Please check out the thread on the comparison and use as analogous of different forms of bigotry

I believe a community to should be receptive to listening to members' suggestions and needs and I believe we as members have a responsibility to listen to the needs and suggestions of other members. I'm concerned that you felt this exchange was not productive and that it influenced your departure from the board for a while. I do understand that the linked thread may have been overwhelming to read through but the point of the suggestion was to educate yourself about issues of comparison on the board. I am sensitive to people doing it because as I mentioned I had been called to task for using it and wished to gently point it out rather than have someone be harsh about it. I'm not sure how I could have mentioned it in a more acceptable manner?

My concern is how do we interact and learn to communicate better without being upset by criticism? How do you suggest I present information to you and other users regarding communication mechanics on the board?

Haus mentioned: I'd also like us to separate "usability" - technical matters - from "what I don't like about Barbelith". Once we get into editorialising about other people's behaviour, rather than standards for posting, I think we lose a lot of utility in the thread.


...and I fear that looking at this interaction may distract from the usability topic. Yet if linking to long threads for previous discussions that contain collective standards is problematic, how do we present those standards?


I hope mentioning this does not push you away, Elettaria, I do enjoy your posts. Rather I want to engage with you and work through this to improve both of our experiences on the board.
 
 
Ganesh
09:45 / 13.01.07
I'd also like us to separate "usability" - technical matters - from "what I don't like about Barbelith". Once we get into editorialising about other people's behaviour, rather than standards for posting, I think we lose a lot of utility in the thread.

Agreed, and I'm a little uneasy with what seems, to me, an artificially homogeneous concept of 'disability' here. Individuals can find themselves disabled in very different ways by different conditions, and changes that enhance the board for one person might, at least theoretically, create problems for another.

By way of example, someone with severe obsessive-compulsive disorder or Asperger's syndrome might become quite distressed at the phenomenon of posters joining threads without properly perusing the backstory. Someone with a high degree of psychoticism might want the Temple excised altogether because some of the discussions therein are uncomfortably close to his illness's manifestations. Etc., etc.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:40 / 13.01.07
I'm inclined to agree. Whilst I do sympathise--I have problems with learning, memory and cognition myself, partly due to my epilepsy and partly due to the drugs I use to control it--I don't think asking that people get at least a general overview of a thread before they post is unfair or unreasonable. Nobody's insisting that you be able to quote a fifteen-page thread chapter and verse, just that you check back and see if your point has already been addressed.

The way I deal with this is to make a rough outline of what I feel needs to be said, and then read through the thread with that particular point in mind to see if it has been covered.
 
 
Ticker
13:37 / 15.01.07
I maybe on the warm fuzzy end of the 'Lith perspective with this but.... I've found if I express my overwhelmed state via PM to the person who is asking me to read the giant thread they are often happy to point me to the specific posts within it they feel are most relevant. The whole thread is provided as context but often it is condensed in a few key posts.

In general if I am honest about my experience and difficulties other folks appear more eager to help rather than just shut me down. I have to own my defensive discomfort about getting called on something and try to focus on learning. That brief moment of shame I experience can prompt me to be less than constructive or I can take a deep breath and invest in doing better. There is the barbe-annoy thread for the residue of the process.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:44 / 15.01.07
In general if I am honest about my experience and difficulties other folks appear more eager to help rather than just shut me down.

I'm working on a longer response to this, but I think that's a very good point. Looking at the thread in which Eletaria is guided towards a thread on the dangers of comparing people being rude about religions to people being rude about gay men and lesbian, it feels... well, not much fun for xk, really. Since I think the other example E. gives is a reference to me posting a link to a paper on antisemitism, I would also say that, either by PM or in the thread, it is perfectly allowable to ask for clarification. However, regrettably, Barbelith is a wordy environment - much less so than it used to be, but still pretty exclusively - and I don't think that is a weakness: people seeking to interact with Barbelith have a number of options, including using Barbelith's resources (asking for a summary of a source, for example) or their own (taking notes on the thread, like Mordant Carnival).

The very short version of this is that it is fine, I think in almost any case, to ask for help with something because you have a disability which requires levels or forms of support that the discussion would not normally contain. It is not, however, incumbent upon Barbelith as an entity to behave at all times as if it were addressing somebody with a cognitive disability, not least because, as Ganesh has said, attempting to cater to some people with disabilities may make life more difficult for other people with disabilities, so it is IMHO best to encourage people to ask for help rather than assume that people will be y and thus that they will need z.
 
 
Twice
22:20 / 15.01.07
I’d like to add a tiny bit. I haven’t had chance to digest this, properly, but in the spirit of self declaration I will spout.

I have sight issues which made things difficult for me, although a little less so, now. I agree with Elettaria that the format here is problematic, but it is not insurmountable. Zooming in on a page is a pain. It makes it hard to follow and is a little like picking up a trail of rice. No matter, that just takes concentration. If I need to read a long post, I usually cut and paste it into Word and enlarge it.

I also get pain, which means I take some cool stuff. I usually get the balance about right but sometimes means I can’t actually hit the right jeys, which is a sign that I can’t think straight, either. There was an example recently which I won’t link to, but annoyed me later.

The most annoying thing for me is that my quota of medication results in very poor short term memory. In day to day life, I have mechanisms I use to minimise this; largely determined note taking and personal reminders. That’s fine with little posts, but hard if I want to have a long discussion.

Ahem. I’m not sure that Barbelith can do much to help me. I think Barbelith is a fine place. I can’t join in as much as I want to, but that’s mostly because I’m only 5% clever. It would be nice if you could click view/text size/largest and actually have the text size grow, but there are other ways. Try it! Go to ‘page’/’zoom’/400% and see how easy it is!

I think Haus is right. It is not Barbelith’s responsibility to try to be all for everyone. It is everyone’s right to make of it what they can. I like it because it’s wordy and awkward, and unapologetic and…matronly, sometimes.

I think a Disability 101 would be an interesting thread.
 
 
Ganesh
00:04 / 16.01.07
More often, Barbelith is ooOoo!-matronly. Which is also nice.
 
 
Char Aina
01:48 / 16.01.07
If I need to read a long post, I usually cut and paste it into Word and enlarge it.

i often read teh screen from several feet back, in a comfier chair. when i do, i use the 'ctrl' and '+' combo that firefox uses to increase text size('-' decreases).
my scroll wheel also works, meaning i can roll up and down sizes until i find on that suits.

hope this is of use to you.
 
 
Char Aina
01:52 / 16.01.07
like, to be explicit, i'm suggesting you may be better off with a more suitable browser for your needs. firefox is a better at that, and at some other stuff.
i'd suggest at least checking it out.
(the text thing isnt great on some sites, but often that is poor coding or design. barbelith is probably one of the better ones for it.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:57 / 16.01.07
Mmm. I don't have the severe level of visual impairment that Twice Five Toes describes and I wouldn't try to compare my case to hers, but I do find my eyes get a bit wonky when I'm tired or at times of the day when I have a lot of meds sloshing around (they affect the muscles a wee bit so I can't always focus terribly well). I find the Barb one of the easier sites to read at those times; I seldom need to blow the page up as I sometimes do elsewhere.
 
  
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