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Mind over Matter

  
 
harmonic series
05:01 / 31.12.06
Sometimes I need some reiki, other kinds of spiritual/energy healing, or perhaps some related training- but what always stands in my mental way is the cash. I know that if one really wants/needs something, money can be obtained- but should it be for these services? Some people say that money is a form of energy and that it is necessary to trade it. Others argue that for a healer, reader, etc. to survive, he or she must ask for cold currency. Provided, some ask for trade (food, goods, etc.) - and I’m okay with that. The question of money is whether it impedes the work, the quality of the deed, the exchange. Seeing as money (paper bills, coins these days), is virtually worthless in and of itself- is it effective to use it as a trade? If a person has millions of dollars, what type of sacrifice is an exchange of currency? Is it about sacrifice; is it about supporting the giver? When I offer services I never charge, but I never refuse a meal if offered in exchange. Does paying for intangible arts encourage charlatans? Thoughts on the effects of money as an exchange for spiritual, magical, etc. services?
 
 
EmberLeo
08:17 / 31.12.06
I have quite a few different thoughts on this.

I agree that healers and clergy and whatnot do need to eat and survive, and unless they visiting homes every day, a single meal isn't going to help them survive tomorrow. It is, however, often a reasonable trade for help when they have other sources of support as well, and I'm usually pretty happy with it myself.

I also have to admit that I don't think I value my 3rd Reiki atunement as much as I might if I'd had to scrimp and save up to pay for it.

But I have some of my own troubles with money that make it a bit of bad energy for me to give it as offerrings or sacrifice, rather than simply recompense. I understand that it's not really intended to have intrinsic value, it's just supposed to be a sort of perpetual equivalent to escrow between various barters, so that goods and services can be distributed more widely, instead of only between two people who each have what the other needs. When I remember to think of it that way, I don't have so much trouble with it.

I do find, from the recieving end, that working for pay makes me nervous. I feel I have less leeway to take as long as may be needed to do a proper job. If I take longer, should I charge more? If I don't, is it fair to charge others who got less time from me just as much as I charged this person, simply because they didn't expect the extra time?

Specifically with regards to Divination, I worry I have less of an option to turn away people who really oughtn't be looking for divination right now, or to tell people that the cards are saying "the solution to your problem is not to waste time and money asking a deck of cards to make your decisions for you."

I'm looking at becoming clergy, and trying to figure out how I'm going to have enough time to really devote to doing the job well when the job doesn't pay. I am also looking at becoming a professional counselor, which is a highly compatible career. But where will I draw the lines between free pastoral counseling, and paid personal therapy?

At the moment I solve all these problems by shelving them. I charge only in barter, measured in time. If I exchange 2 hours of my time for you, you owe me 2 hours of your time. Depending on our relationship, I may simply ask that you keep me company. If you're an acquaintance, I generally ask that you use the time and your own skills to create something useful to me. Currently I have 8 hours of leatherwork owed to me by a friend of a friend. When I get ahold of him again, I will ask him to please make a quivver for my arrows.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
18:35 / 31.12.06
Is it about sacrifice

Yes. People don't value free services enough. If you give someone a free reading they don't take it seriously and gain less from it.
I often barter for readings but I prefer the cash personally- people are happy to pay therapists, masseurs, life coaches, aromatherapists, acupuncturists, why should we not pay for divination, blessings, curse removals or whatever? I'm often intrigued by the perceived 'cheapening' of magic if cash gets involved. Why's that? Money is as magic as anything else, and has more value to most people than things. Provided skilled services to people is worth paying for, why is magic different?
 
 
symbiosis
20:18 / 31.12.06
I think true spirituality must always take the full context, or as close as you can get to it, into account.

I also think that money is neither inherently spiritual or aspiritual, moral or amoral.

So where did this money they want to hand you come from?

If I were an evil magician, bent on chaos, suffering, power, etc., then my magic would be strengthened by getting money that had been used for contract assasinations, weapons development, publicity lies, con jobs, etc.

Likewise, if I want to benefit the people to whom I am offering services, I would want that money to come from currency flows that had also been benefiting people.

I never get into my spirituality with anyone I don't know well, you know what city their parents live in, what kind of beer they like, and where their dollars came from.

If someone wanted to be an exception to this, they could try to be a true neutral, but it's likely they would have trouble reading fortunes for Darth Vader and giving acupuncture to Luke Skywalker out of the same practice.

If 'light saber battle' is an acceptable cause of damages on the insurance claim form, then you might be ok, but your rates are going to increase significantly over time, if you survive.

I recommend, however, being quite certain which sides(ideas, forces, people, species, etc.) you would like to see win, and then practicing your business in harmony with the world you want to be creating.
 
 
Unconditional Love
08:27 / 01.01.07
I am not sure about the sides idea, we are all surely doing one thing, living, wether our trade is taking life or giving life, should not be of consequence. A spiritual perspective could be we are all united as one no matter what we are, from what is considered base to high, to then imply a moral judgement is to destroy that unity.

Thats not to say i agree with mass murder etc, because i dont, but if i am to treat one human being different from another, suddenly i enter the realm of dehumanising , that can be done through a variety of means, profession, behaviour and the more obvious others.

I guess you are talking about blood money, all money becomes blooded at some point in it financial flow, finance is a cyclical process imo, war for example is a reality of humanity, war isnt going anywhere at the moment, would you for example refuse services to somebody because they are a soldier? Or politician?

I cant see why, they are playing a part in this script as much as you or i, a different part it may be, but why cast judgement upon them? Sanctity? piety? Climbing up the moral high ground to look down? Why?

(By the way i am guilty of all of the above at sometime or another)
 
 
the Kite
12:22 / 01.01.07
Superb thread. I can answer the question in terms of my own opinion (and boy do I have them!), but I feel that the question requires us first of all to question our beliefs about money.

For example, why would I even worry about getting paid for providing a service, unless that reveals a belief about the moral or 'spiritual' value of money? If so, then where did I acquire that belief and do I still need it? NB various flavours of voodoo practitioners, for example, have no qualms about accepting large payments for their work.

What beliefs might enable me to act rightly according to my values and productively according to my needs?

For example, if I adopt a belief in universal abundance, when I charge for 'spiritual' services am I not enabling the one charged to contribute to the abundance we all share? Stuart Wilde's awful pun about doing 'a-bun-dance' together springs to mind.

Over to you.
 
 
EmberLeo
08:17 / 02.01.07
For example, why would I even worry about getting paid for providing a service, unless that reveals a belief about the moral or 'spiritual' value of money? If so, then where did I acquire that belief and do I still need it?

With regards to the yes/no aspect of the question, I'd agree. I'm still figuring out the exact nature of my issues, but I'm aware that the fact that I'm uncomfortable indicates that there's something else going on there. But say I get over it entirely, and decide charging money is just dandy.

What do you use to decide how much is fair to charge?

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:51 / 02.01.07
I think the idea of money some how being evil/wrong comes from the idea that anything that promotes material prosperity over or opposed to spiritual prosperity/activity is somehow considered base.

I can think of many institutions that put forward the spiritual explanation for everything that damn all that is material, not only is it exceptionally unhealthy in my opinion but can lead to its own acts of wrong doing against material people, ie me.

The whole notion of that which is material, mater mother, somehow being unworthy of spiritual attention is implicitly dangerous.
 
 
Papess
13:49 / 02.01.07
I'm often intrigued by the perceived 'cheapening' of magic if cash gets involved. Why's that?

I am not certain about why, but I think there are similarities between sex work and magick work in this respect. I don't want to change the course of this thread, but I find it intriguing that people cop the same attitude with magick workers, as they do with sex workers. How did they define that for themselves? Why can we sell some services, like making coffee, or cleaning your home and not others? Are they less sacred than that of sex and magick? Why is that? I think that is the problem, right there.


Interesting topic.
 
 
the Kite
16:43 / 02.01.07
Nice one Justrix.

"What do you use to decide how much is fair to charge?"
--Ember--

Negotiation, perhaps, until all participants perceive they're getting a good deal and creating value in the world; the otherwise nauseating phrase 'win-win-win'.
 
 
Papess
18:00 / 02.01.07
Thanks, Kite. For those who didn't connect the quote in bold above, it is from Quantum, in a post upthread. Sorry, 'bout that, ol' chap.

Carry on!
 
 
EmberLeo
19:02 / 02.01.07
I find it intriguing that people cop the same attitude with magick workers, as they do with sex workers.

Hmm, that's true, but perhaps for different reasons? I mean, yes, I can see that there's the "Priceless means no price" and "The best things in life are free" attitude about both.

But for me, at least, the twitch I was raised with the most for why prostitution may be wrong is that prostitutes are often treated very poorly, and that it's wrong to have a default profession that it is presumed that all women can do, and thus should do if they are desperate for money. I guess it was a feminist thing. I kind of agree with that still, but I think it's too context-specific.

With payment for spiritual services, however, the primary fear seems to be not that the person getting paid is being harmed, but that the person doing the paying is getting fleeced. Fraud is the biggest complaint I percieve. If spiritual services don't provide measurable results, how can their value be quantified? And really, a lot of harm has indeed come to individuals from charlatans who charged outrageous amounts for things that they knew were cons and illusions - and they did it for the money, yes? Presumeably greed is bad because it makes people willing to do bad things just to acquire money.

But I don't think providing what you honestly believe is a good service, and wanting to be paid a reasonable wage for your time and effort is unethical.

--Ember--
 
 
Princess
21:40 / 02.01.07
Would this be the right thread to talk about the Fraudulent Mediums Act?
Though the wording condemns only "fraudulent" workers, I wonder what sort of proof you could provide to show you were real? Are there any lawyers about to settle my worry?
 
 
EmberLeo
22:25 / 02.01.07
Hrm, it specifies that it only counts if they offer services ["with intent to decieve" OR "uses any fraudulent device"] AND ["acted for reward" (i.e. got paid)]

So your loopholes are, apparently, to be sincere in your offer, and/or not charge money. Since the former cannot be proven, that pretty much leaves you with the latter, and really, that's probably the whole point. "Do what you want as long as it's a just hobby."

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
22:27 / 02.01.07
What I find interesting is that they avoid the question of whether you can actually do it entirely, by depending on intentions, rather than demonstrable skill or some sort of certificate of training.

--Ember--
 
 
harmonic series
01:52 / 03.01.07
Why can we sell some services, like making coffee, or cleaning your home and not others? Are they less sacred than that of sex and magick?

This question gave me a little bit of a light bulb- and perhaps some more wattage when combined with the question of verifying a reader's, etc., credentials.

The relationship between a sex worker and one 'selling' magick is that these services require another person. Many people can clean their own home or cut their own hair (for example) but often these same people may feel that only a few lucky humans can provide spiritual services (as they may only be satiated by specific physical traits in people who provide sexual services). Considering that the reason people look-down on the sex industry may be moral (read as biblical), I won't focus on that aspect. But what if people believe that their fates or their health are beholden to those with 'special powers'. Those who practice any of the 'energetic arts' know that there is much training involved, but do people with no exposure to these fields believe that it's just blessed abracadabra? Is this why priests are thought to have more power than the lay people?

Anyway, if this is the thought process of many clients then a charlatan, knowing that a client feels that they are at his or her mercy for positive change, can charge money without limit. So I guess the question is, what's your financial risk limit? Five dollars? Twenty? A pound of flour, a pouch of gold?

Is the charging of a reasonable amount of money a simple way to prove legitimacy?
 
 
EmberLeo
08:42 / 03.01.07
Is the charging of a reasonable amount of money a simple way to prove legitimacy?

It certainly helps, but brings back the question of what constitutes a reasonable amount.

The suggestion given earlier that negotiation would help is rather countered by your point that folks who feel beholden to the mystery may well be comfortable paying an unreasonable price.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:36 / 03.01.07
Another approach to spiritual work is to ask the client to make what they think is a suitable donation of money/goods for the work they recieved, not so good if you are trying to set up a business, but a more useful approach if working on a casual basis. If i involve myself in some affair i usually ask for reciprocation in the way of favours, generally people arent refusing, but occasionally somebody takes the piss.
 
 
Papess
15:30 / 03.01.07
But for me, at least, the twitch I was raised with the most for why prostitution may be wrong is that prostitutes are often treated very poorly, and that it's wrong to have a default profession that it is presumed that all women can do, and thus should do if they are desperate for money. I guess it was a feminist thing. I kind of agree with that still, but I think it's too context-specific.

Well, this is one perspective. I really do not wish to make this a discussion on prostitution or the relationship between sex work and magick work, but your perspective concludes that in all cases of sex work, there is little choice in the matter for the worker. This is most definitely, not true. It does exist, but it is not the norm. After witnessing first-hand the ambition of a fledgling movement, I can hardly make claims that sex workers are being coerced. Perhaps there are poor working conditions, conflictive legislation, stigmatization, and so forth, but the idea, that very idea, that because "a woman" choses sex work, she cannot chose anything else, is in my opinion, unfounded. Most people change their profession at least 3 times in their life. Why couldn't sex work just be one of those choices? I am certain, no - I know for a fact that many sex workers do many, many other things. It just seems odd saying these women don't want to do sex work. What they don't want, in fact, is the lousy attitude handed to them by a society that likes to use them , sneakily, on the side, and then condemn them in Parliament to face dangerous and dehumanizing circumstances in the course of their work. The law itself, and a generally misinformed public, perpetuates the very conditions you are against, EmberLeo. We can have another thread to specifically compare sex work and magick work, if you would like. It certainly interests me.

Now, to make this post more than barely over the line of threadrot, let's assume that sex work is a choice someone makes, like deciding they wanted to be a receptionist or server, like most of the women I know who do it.

Lola, all service requires another person, or else there is no service and it is DIY.

I will make more thread appropriate posts later. I apologize for taking this slightly off-track with loaded issues.
 
 
Quantum
15:39 / 03.01.07
What do you use to decide how much is fair to charge? Ember

Comparison with similar services, or even totally dissimilar services like plumbing or teaching. People are mostly happy to pay about twenty quid (don't know what that is in dollars) for a session, but the best way is to check out the competition and then offer better (better service, longer session, cheaper price or all three) and give someone their money back if they're not happy.
Normally people undercharge when they start out, and if your competition are charlatans then you might feel your clients are playing too much, but they aren't- don't undervalue yourself or your skills. Try asking clients what they normally pay.
 
 
harmonic series
17:31 / 03.01.07
Lola, all service requires another person, or else there is no service and it is DIY.

Sorry to mispeak here- I was aiming for activities that need another person- or not able to DIY. This of course can be argued, for example, if you can't sew, you need to buy clothes from someone that can.

I guess it seemed that paying for sex and paying for magick would sometimes fall under desperate circumstances. This is not to say that every time people go to a sex worker it's desperate, only that if there's a need for that specific human contact and one can't get it, they aren't able to pick up some at a local department store. Same with magick. I suppose, also, that they're both a kind of underground goods (not corporatized). This may influence payment rates (in magick).

Anyway, the issue of sex-workers in general is very interesting- if you start a thread on it, let me know.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:20 / 03.01.07
We can have another thread to specifically compare sex work and magick work, if you would like. It certainly interests me.

Certainly. I don't need to be convinced of anything, since I already agree with you more than you percieved (the perspective I was describing isn't my own, but my Mom's), but I'm sure this topic has been discussed before, and perhaps our conversation can add to it.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
23:24 / 03.01.07
Back to paying for magic- I think the reluctance to accept payment may be a cultural hangover from Simony, 'The sin of simony, or paying for position and influence in the church, is named for Simon (Magus)'. Perhaps the idea of Indulgence (which arguably led to the protestant movement) is also a factor, the reluctance to mix temporal and spiritual matters.
 
 
Papess
10:57 / 04.01.07
That is interesting, Quantum. That is the complete reverse of the statement about charging actually "proving" legitimacy. While people are generally give value to something that is paid for with money hard-earned, Simony, and the subsequent attitude that prevails suggests that legitimacy is established by not receiving payment.

Of course, in spiritual and religious matters, vows of poverty are the norm and almost across the board, (thank goodness no vows in sex work!). In the New Testament, Matthew says: You cannot serve both God and money.” –Matthew 6:24. It is not just a Christian idea, however. Doesn't the Dhammapada state: "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven"? That was long before Simon, too.

If one equates poverty with spirituality, then it makes perfect sense for them to question a "spiritual adviser" that charges for their spiritual services. It does seem a bit contrary, even hypocritical, if spirituality=poverty, is one's belief from the outset.
 
 
EmberLeo
22:44 / 04.01.07
Doesn't the Dhammapada state: "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven"?

I don't know the Dhammapada, but it's in three of the Gospels: Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, and Luke 18:25

--Ember--
 
 
Vadrice
04:07 / 09.01.07
monies are a representation of ownership in potentia. the entire concept of ownership is difficult to console to many spiritual practices. spirit is often regarded as a more energetic, frenetic concept- something difficult to pin down in a manner such as money pins down one's quantifyable measure of ownership in the world.

that's just one impression, however. another is that money is just energy, waiting to be transformed into matter. in that aspect, money is quite simply put a magickal process in and of itself.
 
  
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