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Barbelith Unofficial Demography Project

 
 
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00:46 / 29.12.06
I want to set up an anonymous survey to get a quantitative idea about whose voices are represented here and to what degree. Some of the things I'd like to know are: how posters identify in terms of age, race, gender, class, sexuality, religion, and ability, how often they post, for how long they've been posting, and how committed they feel to the board. I'm looking into free sites to host such a survey, but I need to get a rough idea of how many people would take it. Most of the free sites limit the number of responses.

Would you take a survey like this? Would you be interested to see the results? How could it be useful to the board?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:14 / 29.12.06
I'd take the survey. I'm not sure how useful it could actually be, but it certainly wouldn't do any harm.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:09 / 29.12.06
I would definitely take the survey and the results would be very interesting if not useful.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:10 / 29.12.06
Also could you use a livejournal poll?
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
11:42 / 29.12.06
I'd probably be interested in both doing the survey and seeing the results.
 
 
Ticker
13:49 / 29.12.06
I would as well. You might want to put this blurb in Convo so more people see it?
 
 
Char Aina
14:58 / 29.12.06
there's always the pager.
 
 
grant
15:29 / 29.12.06
Count me in.
 
 
grant
15:34 / 29.12.06
You could also get some of those nice bar graphs like... was it Duncan Falconer? Bedhead? someone made for Barbelith users' heights. Ah! It was Bedhead!

Accurate graph, mapping all the figures in this thread:



...and, God, too late do I remember just how fucking boring graphs are to do. So then I rounded all the half-inches up and did this as I had my coffee and elevensies:



'Scuse the biscuit crumbs. Anyway, that looks a teensy bit nicer, and you can colour it in yourself.



There's already some demographic information on the wiki, too, about places where people live.
 
 
Lama glama
15:49 / 29.12.06
I'd take it. A lot of people at college use Survey Monkey to carry out stuff like this. Some of the content is free, as far a I know, but like everything the better stuff costs.
 
 
Spaniel
18:03 / 29.12.06
Yup, I likey.

Perhaps we could start signpost threads in each forum if the survey gets up and running.
 
 
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20:07 / 29.12.06
I thought about survey monkey, but I would definitely need more than 100 responses, I think, and I don't quite feel like dropping the twenty bucks a month. LJ poll... well, not everyone on the lith is on LJ; would it still work for them?
 
 
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20:08 / 29.12.06
Also, just to be totally clear, I am not taking this information by PM on the board. I don't want to be able to connect the info with the screenname. So please don't PM me your info. Thanks.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:27 / 29.12.06
I'm not sure what the results of this kind of survey would establish though, other than that active posters on Barbelith are, pretty much overwhelmingly, white, middle class, over-educated and under-employed.

I could be wrong, but if the survey did turn out that way, I don't suppose it would be news to anyone, really.

Good luck with fielding all the PM's, though. Some might say that you did ask, but not me. No, not me.
 
 
alas
03:10 / 30.12.06
I'd take it. So long as I don't have to fight off or flee from a pack of stoats.
 
 
enrieb
11:02 / 30.12.06
I would also like to take part in the survey; I like the suggestion above by Boboss to start signpost threads in each forum, some posters may only use the Temple or Comic Books and it would be good to get an as representive as possible survey of the active members. We could give this thread a week in Policy then move it into conversation temporarily to pick up a few other members who don’t read Policy.
 
 
Papess
16:19 / 30.12.06
I would take part in this also. I think it is an awesome idea and maybe our presumptions about who we are might just be challenged.
 
 
Feverfew
20:02 / 30.12.06
I think it's a good idea...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
00:02 / 31.12.06
Id, I'd like to know more about your reasons for wanting to run a survey of this kind, and discuss how the info might be useful. In a logical, common-sensical way, it seems like a great idea. On the other hand, a whole bunch of questions are occuring to me about how it might work and what, precisely, is being represented (or called to be represented) in a survey like this.

Partially these questions arise because I've been doing semi-quantitative research for my phd this year, and it's turned out to be the most difficult and theoretically conflicted form of research I've encountered. So they're pretty much all questions I've asked myself, for which I haven't necessarily found appropriate answers.

Isn't the beauty of this place the fact that we are rarely made accountable to census-like information gathering, and not necessarily judged on the basis of 'vital statistics'? Would people be asked to answer on the basis of their fiction suit, or their 'real body'? Just to mention the first example I can think of (and not to draw unnecessary attention to the board's resident octogenarian) would Alex's Grandma be asked to provide answers for Grandma or Alex himself? How would you collect/organise information on (for example) race/ethnicity, given that different categories of ethnicity or race (and their structuring in relation to each other) are so localised and contingent? The only way I can see that working properly is to offer a blank space to be filled in by the respondent -- which, aside from being hell to code, forces one to 'adapt' people's answers into statistics that are warped by that very process of adaptation.

Me, I hate the real census and I think its capacity to collect useful information about populations is fundamentally flawed. To feel positive about a similar project for the Lith I'd have to know precisely why you or other people think this information is worthy of collection.
 
 
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01:53 / 31.12.06
MD, in the past I've been on threads where I had the uncomfortable feeling that there were a lot of white people talking about race, or a lot of people with male privilege talking about women, or a lot of UK/US folks talking about "foreigners", or a lot of middle class people talking about poor people, without much of an opportunity for the people whose lives we were talking about to weigh in. I've asserted before that there are power dynamics at work on Barbelith that reflect those in the world at large— i.e. people of color, women, and other groups being systematically marginalized and silenced. However, I've found that there's at least a strong minority opinion that that doesn't happen on Barbelith. I'm hoping a demography project will help me to get a better grip on why I feel so strongly that Barbelith is still replicating these power dynamics, or possibly it will show me that the dynamic I'm seeing is much less rooted in people's day-to-day identities than I previously thought, or something else entirely.

I want the survey to be anonymous so that people's fictionsuits can continue largely unaffected by it. If I'm not trustworthy enough to run the survey anonymously in the opinion of several people, I'll ask someone else to take it on— in fact anyone with more resources and/or know-how than I can feel free to step up at any point. But I would like for people to answer honestly about the identities that most shapes their perspective. I identify as a man, but my female history also shapes my perspective enormously, and for that reason I would feel strongly obligated to identify myself as a trans man, rather than a 'default' (where default is often read as non-trans) man. No matter how much I would rather not cop to being white, my whiteness shapes my perspective enormously, and I'd better own that if the survey means anything to me. As far as I'm concerned, if the perspective of a greatly experienced woman significantly shapes the posts of the entity sometimes known as Alex and sometimes known as Alex's Grandma, A and AG could each fill the survey out if they want.

But if you think Barbelith really should be a space where people's history and identity is held to somehow not affect the perspective they put forward here, I think that's impossible. We can acknowledge that effect or not, but it exists already. Pretending it doesn't would be fine if this were a roleplaying game, but for whatever reason it seems the opinions expressed here occasionally make a big difference in how people see the world. There are real effects to how we talk about things here. Not earth-shattering ones, but matters of just enough consequence that I'd rather take the role our offline identity is already playing seriously enough to examine it, instead of sticking our heads in the sand.

Gods know the fiction-suit, blank-slate power over my own identity here has been extremely useful to me in the past, and I hope it will continue to be useful to others in the future. I don't think an anonymous survey, provided care was taken to keep it anonymous, would actually harm that... am I wrong?

Thoughts? Does this seem terribly misguided?
 
 
Saturn's nod
10:48 / 03.01.07
I recognise the difficulties involved in surveying humans, and I'm glad you've pointed some of them out, Disco.

I love the idea, though. It pisses me off when people assert out loud on the board that "everyone here's white"; I'd love to be able to do more than say, 'I assure you that's not the case' without anyone being put on the spot. A survey would be a way to do that. I think we could generate some data and use it to produce simple descriptive statistics.

I would be willing to answer, and I'm happy for you to carry it out, entity. I'd like to see more survey forms in the world with >2 gender boxes on.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:03 / 04.01.07
id, I'm not sure that anything about the dialogues that have taken place on Barbelith almost constantly, since its inception, about how power dynamics and history and identity affect it as a social space could be called 'sticking our heads in the sand.' I'm not sure I really like the way that sounds, as if not liking the idea of a demography project means one is refusing to think about those issues.

Demography, to me, means stratification. It means that representation is judged to have some kind of more powerful political effect than any other way of doing politics. It means that at bottom, we attach greater significance to essentialism, however much we complicate that. Sure, the net is not a 'free' zone in which play is all. But you know, we're attached to the real world far too much for my liking on Barbelith already -- one fiction suit, IP address matching log-in name, etc. Given that posting is way down, and that a whole lot of people just left recently (including me, and I don't even know why I'm still posting this) I don't know what the survey will wind up being representative of.

Sorry to be so negative -- to be honest, I think something around here has died, and I'm speaking through a sense of that. Population analysis will only mummify the corpse, it won't bring it back to life.
 
 
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03:13 / 04.01.07
I didn't intend to characterize your views that way, MD. I'll think more about what you've said and see if I still think the project is a good idea. Other opinions and arguments more than welcome.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
11:55 / 04.01.07
idperfections - i'd be willing to participate in your survey, but like Disco, i'm not at all certain what that would achieve, if anything. achieve as in - why and how would we/you make the results matter? and for whom?

would it result in a *clearing phlegm from throat* policy recommendation of sorts, like "according to the survey, 'lithers are 58% male white middle-class college-educated grocery shop clerks, so that means we should be wary when adressing issue X, Y and Z due to the power differentials that might inhere in these conversations/arguments/mutual skullbashings"?

what i'd like to see is more developed research hypotheses, to use the research jargon.

but, that said, i find this a very interesting topic in and of itself - the worth of demographics in a ficsuit environment and what they would mean to the users of a place such as Barbelith. Could this branch into a Headshop thread or would there already be a plethora of threads where this could fit in?
 
 
grant
03:00 / 08.01.07
Me, I hate the real census and I think its capacity to collect useful information about populations is fundamentally flawed.

Off-topic, but possibly relevant -- there's a lot of theology bound up in the census. One of the big laws in the Torah was that God's people shouldn't count themselves (or at least could only do so in a very particular way). It was somehow... demeaning. Profane, maybe. The act of pinning down specifics has spiritual ramifications.

I find that fascinating.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:55 / 08.01.07
It means that representation is judged to have some kind of more powerful political effect than any other way of doing politics.

The fundamental basis of our politics is representation- what we are informs every political decision we make- that doesn't mean that demographics necessarily mean anything on an individual basis but it could mean that we learn the base reactions of this space and thus destroy current assumptions from a survey of barbelith users.

Disco, my question in light of your remarks is what are we going to take away that's in and of itself negative from something like this? Either it will enlighten people in some way or it won't but I don't think a brief collation of information is going to be negative if we don't allow stupid assumptions to be made as a result of the information. At the least we might get an interesting thread out of it and god knows this place is lacking in those.
 
  
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