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Dimensional perception, a need for duality?

 
  

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Rev. Wright
21:43 / 10.02.02
This concept was discussed in the Magick section and now myself and Modfive are trying to expand on it, so we thought the lab was a good place to start.

quote: I may well regret posting on this thread, but I thought I'd add my thought, just in case it makes sense to this 'Duality in Diversity'.
Subjective and Objective, like looking into the eyes of another human and realising that they are having a valid 'living' experience the same as you.

I was made aware of dimensional theory over the years and in some minds 'we'/humans are developing an experience that extends into and finally through the 4th dimension. For our 'minds' to experience this realm of 3rd dimensional experience it appears that mind processing requires the use of binary opposites, duality. (2 > 3)

It can be an imperitive of a path/practice to neutralise this duality processing, to allow access to other dimensional possibilities. (2 > 1 gnosis)

Again this may have no relevence, just writing from my intuition as ever.



quote: Oh how cool! But isn't your equation supposed to be (3 > 2) then (2 > 1 gnosis)?

If I may play with that a little, I would say:

(3 > 2) (2 > 1) (1 > 2) (2 > 3)

If I could type in a circle instead of just a straight line, the thing would bend around and swallow its own tail so to speak. Gnosis would be somewhere in the center and all around.


quote: Excellent (said in his best Mr Burns voice)
As I said it was an intuitive type and any modification of the sequence makes sense to me. The initial (2 > 3) was expressing Duality making sense of three dimensions, but (3 > 2) three dimensions into dualitiy is just as effective, especially if it leads where I think it may lead.

What happens when we expand the dimension of experience to 4th or 5th?



binary opposites used for 3 dimensions
trinity of elements used for 4 dimensions?
(4 > 3)?
Now how do we continue to a singularity, does teh equation add another bracket or does it skip a level?
(4 > 3)(3 > 2)(2 > 1)?
(4 > 3)(2 > 1)?

Now originaly 3 stands for the dimension, 2 for binary opposite processing (duality) and 1 for singularity (gnosis).
What would 3 stand for in the 4th dimensional equatiuon?

Or is 4 time? then what would 5/5th diemnsion be?

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
 
The Monkey
02:19 / 12.02.02
As someone with far too much biology and a metaphysical education only in Hinduism, I would really like an amplification of this idea:

For our 'minds' to experience this realm of 3rd dimensional experience it appears that mind processing requires the use of binary opposites, duality.

In particular, what are you defining as "3rd dimensional experience" and "mind processing"?

I guess I'm wondering how to approach this topic as a scientific, rather than philosophical, point.
 
 
SMS
03:31 / 12.02.02
From a scientific point of view, other dimensions would either be more spacial dimensions or more temporal dimensions. As of right now, the only theories regarding additional dimensions deal with more spacial dimensions.
 
 
The Monkey
03:36 / 12.02.02
Well, I don't have anything earth-shaking yet, but I've been toying with a 5-dimensional setup of your initial philosophical premise...will post when satisfied, which may be never.

You might want to go look for info on "klein bottles" though, especially here:
http://www.math.rochester.edu/misc/klein-bottle.html

I've ODed on planar geometry for one night, though...there was a link with about twelve pages of equations explaining gravitation in an eight-dimension klein bottle...good night and good hunting.
 
 
Re-Set
13:40 / 12.02.02
I'm not sure I understand the bracketed numerics exactly. Can someone elaborate?

And wouldn't at least duality be needed for dimensional perception, not the other way around?
 
 
Rev. Wright
15:15 / 12.02.02
Sorry I'm rather caught with pre-production on a film, but.....

quote: In particular, what are you defining as "3rd dimensional experience" and "mind processing"?



3rd dimensional space equates to your feet on the floor and the hand infront of your face, able to touch a table. or x,y and z axis

mind processing is the ability to juggle this information and relate to it.


quote: I guess I'm wondering how to approach this topic as a scientific, rather than philosophical, point.


Got me there, I admit to not being a scientist but an intuitive wounded healer. Can anyone help?

quote: I'm not sure I understand the bracketed numerics exactly. Can someone elaborate?

may I suggest you check the original thread from the link at the start of this thread.

quote: And wouldn't at least duality be needed for dimensional perception, not the other way around?


Or does 3rd Dimensional perception result in duality, again as links to the ideas in the original thread and the desire to equate a reason to binary opposites.

Will get back to you regarding the other links posted. Keep the hearth warm.
 
 
—| x |—
05:30 / 14.02.02
“I think I’m hyper enough as it is. I think I’m hyper enough!”
--Superchunk

Hello Will! Sorry to leave you hangin’ like that, but I’ve been a little diZzy lately.

I think that maybe it’d be better if we put aside some of that diZzy nonsense for now and instead perhaps we should start with the basics of geometry, and we’ll weave in some “brain stuff” as we go along:

0: the dimension of the singular point.
1: the dimension of the line (x).
2: the dimensions of the plane (x, y).
3: the dimensions of space (x, y, z).

Now it’s interesting to note that the singular point doesn’t have any existence, because it has no dimension in space. Points are, in some sense, ideal, and most people would agree that we don’t interact with points at all. However, if we collect enough of these points together, we get our good old friend the line (an infinite number of points for any length of line!). Now lines are ideal too, but yet, our senses make some of the things we interact with close enough to lines, that we call them lines, like the line that is the edge of this desk, ya?

Moving to the surface of this desk—the dimension of the plane—we have, in our ideal mathematical sense, an infinite number of lines stacked one over the other. And perhaps some of us might be surprised to know that the same number of points that make up a single line (an infinite number) make up the whole (x, y) plane. It is in the plane that we trace out the basic shapes: triangle, square, circle, etc. Some psychologists tell us that the brain builds our visual experiences of the world starting with these shapes as the ‘wire frames’ for more detail to be added as more of the received sense data becomes interpreted. We do receive all our visual information through the retinas and these are two dimensional screens, so I guess that makes sense, ya? We might find these shapes uninteresting, but there is a marvelous tale about A Square, related to us by Edwin A. Abbott.

From here we stack planes one atop the other to make our three dimensional space. This gives us the traditional Platonic Solids. Again, the very same number of points that make up the whole of the largest (x, y, z) space you can imagine also made up the lonely (x) line of any length. Now by some sorta’ magick (read: < shrug? > ) our brain takes the sense data that we receive and builds the space that we perceive around us as three dimensional at any given moment. But if we start stacking moments one atop the next, then we enter into

4: the dimensions of spacetime (x, y, z, t)

Now it seems to me that duality plays a role in our orientation in these four dimensions: we cut up the world into left/right (x), forward/back (y), up/down (z), and past/future (t). All together, this forms the (x, y, z, t) spacetime that we experience over the course of our lives. And now for your viewing pleasure (break out those red/blue 3-D glasses), here is a rare glimpse of A Square’s 4D self. Granted, to the hypercube, the fourth dimension is only another spatial dimension, but to us, the fourth dimension seems to be temporal.

But, in general, we only experience the dimension of (t) a point at a time—the Now. We do not usually perceive a whole series of moments—a line of time, our whole day perhaps, all at once; rather, we seem to take it one bit at a time. This is odd in contrast to the way we experience the (x, y, z) as extended, whereby that I mean we appear to gather up, with our senses, a whole collection of the points that make up our environment at any one moment. Yet our life traces out a line of collected (t) points from beginning to end.

I hope this is a good place to start. Any comments, questions or what-not about any of the above?
With this as a starting point, anyone with any thoughts on what the fifth dimension might be to us?

23 + 10 = 0 (mod 3)

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: modthree ]
 
 
grant
12:37 / 14.02.02
Well, if we're only experiencing the line of time (the 4th dimension) one moment at a time (but apprehending the line in the form of memory) then the plane of time would probably be a sort of mass-memory, either collective unconscious or else an awareness of the history of everything.
 
 
Rev. Wright
18:25 / 14.02.02
Again I stipulate that I'm coming from a very subjective esoteric point of view, ok.
But this idea of a plain of time that Grant mentions, resonates with me.
I have felt in my journeying that the universe has already happened and that we are experiencing a line drawn across it. The information that come to me, seem sto be conducted through my DNA, Antenna from a point of reference outside this 'linear time'.
A > B = line of time
A2 > B2 = plain of time?
this plain of time extends left and right of our personal time line?
A3 > B3 = time cube/x,y,z axis of time?
This volume of time extends back and forth in time from the time plain?
Thus the psychic time traveller can extend their awareness to various places and histories (past/future)?

(maybe I shouldn't mess with math?)

(edited coz I missed the 'o' from point, but maybe pint of view is more valid?)

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
 
netbanshee
09:27 / 15.02.02
..ok..forgive me as my math hasn't been along for the ride with the concept part of my brain for a long time...

Since the present is a "point" in a perceived length of a timeline, then would memory of time be the fifth dimension?

Memory of...
Past - Present - Future

So...

quote:
0: the dimension of the singular point.
1: the dimension of the line (x).
2: the dimensions of the plane (x, y).
3: the dimensions of space (x, y, z).


4: the dimensions of spacetime

Does a dimension signify the present in spacetime (a point) or since it is a singularity or quality of spacetime(possessing 0 dimension) does it preclude the need for one? Kind of curious about this...

..some scribblings...

5: the dimension of planar spacetimes
6: the dimension of 3-dimensional (spacial) spacetimes

..just wondering if it's possible that dimensions can possess similar classifications of within themselves (like the idea above with dimensional planes of grouped instances of spacetime) or does the next dimension try to contain different aesthetics that encompass the ideas of line, plane, space, spacetime...

...hoping this makes sense...don't know if I can explain it any better.

Guess maybe another route would be to link resources of other thoughts on the other dimensions that may exist and see what we all think...
 
 
tSuibhne
09:27 / 15.02.02
Excuse my lack of knowledge, feel free to ignore, or just point me in the direction of books and/or web pages.

quote:Originally posted by grant:
Well, if we're only experiencing the line of time (the 4th dimension) one moment at a time (but apprehending the line in the form of memory) then the plane of time would probably be a sort of mass-memory, either collective unconscious or else an awareness of the history of everything.


Would this be similiar to (Plato's?) theory that all learning is just a matter of remembering that which we already know? So, that our experiences, are simply a matter of remembering a certain period of time?

I understand the whole, "time happening at once" element of time theory. It's just that this just popped in my head, so I thought I might throw it out.

Also, on the time point/line/plane theory. You say that a time line are those elements to the left and right of the point. And the plane is the elements beyond that. Am I to infer that the line corresponds with the individual's memory. And the plane with the group? Or is the line the group, and something else is beyond that? If so, can you elaborate?

And to acctually add something to the discussion. In the third dimension, time (the fourth dimension) is experienced as a point. Could it be that the fifth dimension is something that we do not currently even interact with, but instead is a point in the fourth dimension?

i.e. does the second dimension, feel time? Or does the second demension feel depth (the third dimension) as we feel time. And have absolutely no concept of time?
 
 
Rev. Wright
09:27 / 15.02.02
quote: Also, on the time point/line/plane theory. You say that a time line are those elements to the left and right of the point. And the plane is the elements beyond that. Am I to infer that the line corresponds with the individual's memory. And the plane with the group? Or is the line the group, and something else is beyond that? If so, can you elaborate?




The idea that a plain through time would be others perceptions of it, a collective experience, would explain my experiences of communicating with others minds, such as picking up on memories or ideas.

The next level, z, would possibly explain perception of memories/information, pastone lifetime (if a the line defines a lifetime).

quote:Would this be similiar to (Plato's?) theory that all learning is just a matter of remembering that which we already know? So, that our experiences, are simply a matter of remembering a certain period of time?


Well this is something that I have just started to understand with the help of Philosopher's Stone truffels. Our DNA (like Mr Leary says) may well be the key to unliocking the 'all time', that we cannot cunsume readily from our current locations.

Are we already accessing other dimensions through our internal dialogues, without acknowledging it?
 
 
—| x |—
19:40 / 15.02.02
Yes please, pour me a pint of view!
(Kinda’ like PKD’s mood machines in “Do Androids Dream…” maybe?)

I feel that there is a connection between Plato’s “all learning is remembering,” Jung’s notion of a collective unconscious, and what some of you have said in the above. I think that we might not want to use the word ‘memory’ here as it implies a sense of what has “past.” Perhaps we could think of a sort of awareness; that is, it might be better to not say “...a memory of...” but instead say “...an awareness of...” Does this make sense?

It seems to me that thinking about all time happening at once is equivalent to thinking there is no time. Or that all time is equivalent to a time: as if all the events (of a single universe) collected together was itself a single event. This brings us back around to the whole of a universe as a singular point of time in 0 dimensions, ya? So what I’m thinking is that the fifth dimension would be the line of time that makes up the set of all the possibilities of a single universe; that is, all the ways that any one universe could have unfolded (if you will) makes up the fifth dimension. This would be a plane of time relative to our point of view. So, in a sense, we do interact with the fifth dimension in so far as we are actually able to choose the course of our lives from the set of finite possibilities that present themselves to us at any instance of Now. I hope I haven’t lost you all...I realize that here I am assuming free-will over a deterministic point of view, but I hope that is ok in the context of this discussion.

TSuibhne, when you ask:
quote: does the second dimension, feel time? Or does the second dimension feel depth (the third dimension) as we feel time. And have absolutely no concept of time?

This question is addressed in Flatland, but I understand if you or anyone else, has not had the time to read a whole novel simply to participate in this thread! If there were actual beings like A Square and his kin, then they experience what we 3D beings call “depth” as time (like we experience the fourth dimension as time, where 4D beings would experience it as a direction...). I think you can get a feel for this by checking out the Minkowski diagrams I link to as “spacetime” in the above post.

Will, when you say:
quote: The idea that a plain through time would be others perceptions of it, a collective experience, would explain my experiences of communicating with others minds, such as picking up on memories or ideas.

I feel that this is on the right track. By approaching experience as indexed by points of (t) such that the whole collection of points are connected to form the timeline of a universe (or the time plane of a set of possible universes) seems to have the power to explain many sorts of strange “paranormal” phenomena. But maybe I’ve fallen off my rocker...or maybe I never got on the rocker to begin with!

Thoughts on DNA can only add to all this, some I’m glad you bring this in, Will. I tend to wonder if DNA, in its complexity, contains “all time” or only the record of all time up to the point of said DNA chain’s existence? I think it would be pretty damn amazing if we could “read” the future simply by decoding a chain of DNA in its entirety. Of course, such a decoding would not be simple at all, and I feel that we would have to move beyond thinking that much of our DNA is so-called “junk DNA.” I think its all there for a reason (that is, this whole chain of stuff that appears as mostly nonsense to us), but I don’t have the foggiest idea of what a whole decoded chain might actually tell us.

Let’s keep pluggin’ shall we?
three by three minus two is equal to one modthree

[ 15-02-2002: Message edited by: modthree ]
 
 
Rev. Wright
21:53 / 15.02.02
quote: Thoughts on DNA can only add to all this, some I’m glad you bring this in, Will. I tend to wonder if DNA, in its complexity, contains “all time” or only the record of all time up to the point of said DNA chain’s existence? I think it would be pretty damn amazing if we could “read” the future simply by decoding a chain of DNA in its entirety. Of course, such a decoding would not be simple at all, and I feel that we would have to move beyond thinking that much of our DNA is so-called “junk DNA.” I think its all there for a reason (that is, this whole chain of stuff that appears as mostly nonsense to us), but I don’t have the foggiest idea of what a whole decoded chain might actually tell us.



DNA decoded = Copyright G.O.D. Systems. serial number HSS19874.

(laughs so much he stops.)
 
 
grant
15:38 / 18.02.02
Yeah, what I was saying about the plane being a group memory/consciousness was just what it seems.

We're all 'remembering' only our own timeline, just as we can only see spacial phenomena from within our field of vision.

That field is three dimensional largely because we have two eyes - two points of perception - and we move through the field - that is, we're aware of the passage of time across that field. If you use one eye to look at an abstract painting, say (one in which 3D cues are absent), it's pretty obviously a two-dimensional experience.

I'd say our experience of other people's histories (stories, histories, anecdotes) give us a similar means of extrapolating out from our own linear experience of time. It's all peripheral stuff.
 
 
—| x |—
21:26 / 20.02.02
quote:Originally posted by grant:
We're all 'remembering' only our own timeline, just as we can only see spacial phenomena from within our field of vision.


But are we remembering the timeline of one possible life or are we selecting the histories/futures from a set of possible lives?
 
 
grant
13:51 / 21.02.02
That depends on what your definition of "perceive" would include.
The only thing immediately to hand, though, would be something that has just happened to you personally.
 
 
Rev. Wright
07:46 / 25.02.02
quote: But are we remembering the timeline of one possible life or are we selecting the histories/futures from a set of possible lives?


Can I posit the concept that the universe is Chaos Self Organising to allow for constantly splitting possibilities in the paradox. Thus can this concept make allowences for possible lives, without interfering with the dimensional structuring?

The concpet of CSO would be a constant, underwriting the dimensional equation?

[ 25-02-2002: Message edited by: will it work wright? ]
 
 
Rev. Wright
21:43 / 27.02.02
Found this on a site, and thought it may provide something to this thread.

quote: What is the Fourth Dimension?:
Where is it?:
How do you reach it?:
The Fourth Dimension is not a specific place, like down to the corner and take a left for 2 miles.
It is a infinitely large space with an infinite amount of 3 dimensional universes(each taking up an infinite amount of space.) What I mean by "space" is an area to be filled with matter.
Try to think of a piece of paper. Now make it infinitely flat and stretch it out so that you could write on it forever. The "paper" (or 2-D plane) is infinitely large and we can can easily fit an infinite amount of them in our universe just by "stacking them in our 3-D universe. The same is true for fitting an infinite amount of 3-D universes in one fourth dimension. We just "stack" them in the direction of the fourth dimension. In this case, we could(do) have an infinite amount of 3-D universes in one 4-D universe. That means there are infinite worlds out there, just like this one. There are slight variations in ways we can not imagine!!
Now, to try and visualize this wonderful place called the fourth dimension, try to think of that flat, infinite paper again. Now compare it to our 3-D universe. It is like a bunch of these papers stacked to form one 3-D dimension. The paper(the second dimension) is actually in the 3rd dimension, the same way we are in the fourth dimension. The only difference from actually being there, is the 2-D creatures are confined to the paper, the same we are confined to the universe. To us, it seems impossible to "leave" our universe because we think everything is already and has to be "here."
The Fourth Dimension is simply the next step in dimensions. Each consecutive one has the ability to hold an infinite amount of universes of dimensions lower than itself. Yet each dimension is infinite itself. This suggests that there are different levels of infinity.....
Enough about infinity. So, "When" is the fourth dimension? - It is(or you could say) now.
But time may have different properties in the fourth dimension, such as different areas go slower or faster. Which seems absurd but since think time can be contained in the 3rd dimension, there can be multiple "times" in the fourth.
Can you go to the fourth dimension? - Yes, you may enter the fourth dimension. In fact you are part of it now. Think that you cut a square out of that infinitely flat piece of paper. You can move it up down, left right, forward and backward. Thus it moves in the 3rd dimension. But not by it's own power...
It is possible that God could/would/will stretch our universe in the direction of the fourth dimension meaning that we would be moving in the direction of the Fourth Dimension. To better visualize this, think of that paper and take the middle and pull up. It should all be flat except for the "tent-like" protrusion of itself. The paper is 3 dimensional in this area although undetected by it's habitants.
The relationship between the 3rd and 4th dimensions can be compared to the relationship of the 2nd and 3rd dimensions. Also to the relationship of the fourth and fifth dimensions, 5th and 6th, 6th & 7th and so on...

its from : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7997/faq.html
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:04 / 28.02.02
I think that too much is made of the significance of dimensions. At its heart, the dimension of something just says how many things you need to specify in order to describe an object.

For instance, if a shop sells 1001 things then to specify all the prices in the shop you have to give 1001 pieces of information. So the price profile is really a point in 1001 dimensional space!! wow!!! ....not.

The cosmologists that say we live in an 11 dimensional universe are only really saying anything about the maths they need to make the equations work. Its not clear if they mean anything beyond that.

Of course we are hard wired to think in three spatial dimensions (I find Im only really comfortable in two) so it seems wierd to think of more. But I reckon that we are surrounded every day by multidimensional objects (like the price list) which are fairly uninspiring. But if anyone sees some really deep idea Im missing, let me know.
 
 
Rev. Wright
12:25 / 28.02.02
quote: I think that too much is made of the significance of dimensions. At its heart, the dimension of something just says how many things you need to specify in order to describe an object.

Try telling that to the scientists, the engineers, the philosophers and the qabbalists.
Sure discussing dimensions is putting the 'gaps' between things, but it is also a major crossing point in the science vs esoteria debate. Knowledge that can help define our realm of existence will help us realise the extent of that existence and empower us. To me that is the essence of this thread, to distinguish dimensional perception from the 'dualist trap'.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:43 / 28.02.02
Hmmm. I find your post almost incomprehensible. I may be thinking too one dimensionally.

quote: Sure discussing dimensions is putting the 'gaps' between things, but it is also a major crossing point in the science vs esoteria debate.

Not sure what you mean by gaps here and I dont see how discussing dimensions serves as a good crossing point. Scientists tend to use words like dimension in a very precise, technical and limited sense. Others use the word dimension in a metaphorical sense, like my use above. I dont think that the two really say very much to each other.


quote: Knowledge that can help define our realm of existence will help us realise the extent of that existence and empower us.

In principal, yes. But there is a limit to which this is really meaningful. After all, what does quantum physics really tell us about morality? Nothing. What about the relation between cosmology and global politics? There isnt one.

Perhaps Im missing the point here and you are really talking about dimension in a purely metaphorical way.



quote: To me that is the essence of this thread, to distinguish dimensional perception from the 'dualist trap'.

Yes, this definitely seems like a metaphorical use of the word dimension and nothing to do with Klein bottles and their ilk.
 
 
Rev. Wright
16:59 / 28.02.02
quote: Not sure what you mean by gaps here and I dont see how discussing dimensions serves as a good crossing point. Scientists tend to use words like dimension in a very precise, technical and limited sense. Others use the word dimension in a metaphorical sense, like my use above. I dont think that the two really say very much to each other.



Gaps was used to imply teh way in which teh conscious mind differentiates between one thing and another. From birth the mind is called upon to seperate itself from the reality it is brought into. By discussing dimensions one is indeed pointing out gaps/ differences.
Dimension is used to define spatial awareness, which both science and esoteria would like to agree on IMO. As mentioned earlier in the thread a model of dimensional possibility could/would explain psychic abilities within the inner dialogue. Across which spaces or plains does this information exist/travel?
Maybe this is an attempt at crudely fusing the metaphorical with the empirical. In some ways ending the binary opposition and duality so cursed in the thread that spawned this one.

quote: In principal, yes. But there is a limit to which this is really meaningful. After all, what does quantum physics really tell us about morality? Nothing. What about the relation between cosmology and global politics? There isnt one.



Quantum physics and morality is a good point. With use of the ancient phrase 'As Above, So Below' is not our interaction as humans a permutation of energies diffusing, merging or repelling. Smaller models can/could be applied to our instinctual nature and thus expand upon our understanding of the human condition. Once we understand the fabric/pieces the object/whole becomes more fully realised?

If time was a dimension, in the scientific use, and life could exist beyond it, would it not encroach upon the metaphysical.
Would the understanding of the missing 'Dark matter' and the dimensional residing of displaced particles, not indeed enter a realm beyond the veil.
IMO certain scientific data would upturn many global powerbases.
As scientific data maps the subtle energy effects of 21st century living, the stellar bombardment of Earth may well have major influences upon human life. There has been fair evidence reported on the effect of sun spot cycles upon electromagnetics, and changes within ecosystems,such as light and heat are known to effect the behaviour of animals.
There sure is alot of energy in space.

Is there a link between the klein bottle and the metaphorical use of the word dimension?
 
 
—| x |—
18:09 / 28.02.02
If a may take a quick moment to drop my two bits into the slot for a shot a three lives…

Um, I mean allow me a quick response before I go and read all this over more carefully and go search out some more resources for those that are maybe struggling with the concepts being bandied about here.

A problem that we’re running into is the myriad of senses that ‘dimension’ can take.

Lurid Archive has a perfectly good point: “At its heart, the dimension of something just says how many things you need to specify in order to describe an object.”

This takes us roaring into Hilbert Space with the possibility of n dimensions, where n is an element of the Natural numbers. Which is to say that picking out any one object here in our world is a process of locating it as a point in n dimensions. These dimensions will depend on the nature of the object, and in what ways we are aware of it. To give an example to try to make this more clear:

Suppose I’m looking at a flower. I’m not only locating this object in space at a certain time—or series of times—(i.e. by “to the left/up/front of… or to the right/down/back of…or any combination thereof at t or more realistically t1 to tn) but I’m also locating it by orienting it on axes that have to do with, say, how light/dark it is, how soft/hard it is, how red or blue or green or whatever it is, and all sorts of other “dimensions” that are scaled according to a “how does this compare to…” perspective. I know that’s still not so clear, but I can’t think of a better way to describe it right now.

Suffice to say, in a sense, the “profile” of any object is going to be point in n dimensions, and n will be determined by how many axes (NB: ‘axes’ plural of ‘axis’ ) of “comparison/scaled qualities” that we aware of while we are experiencing the object. But to answer LA’s concerns, I think what we are doing (in part) here is reducing the n dimensions of object examination/recognition/categorization, etc. to an element in the three dimensions of space (that is, we are cautiously ignoring the properties of the things that make up our world in order to place them in the 3D matrix of space), and from here we are thinking about how the set of these objects composing the whole of space at a specific time “move” from one t point to the next t point to the next…thus, we get time as the fourth dimension relative to our location as part of the 3D matrix of space.

So, that’s it for now, but more later. And please ask me to attempt to clarify more about any points that seem “hazy” to you. I’d be more than happy to try to get as clear as I can on all this!

{0, 1, 2}

[ 28-02-2002: Message edited by: modthree ]
 
 
—| x |—
18:34 / 28.02.02
Some quickly gathered resources on Hilbert Space:

this one’s so “mathy” it intimidates me! But might be good to poke around in a bit…

an intuitive representation of the underlying idea that forms part of the subject at hand.

an interesting and challenging looking article that would probably address some of the quantum stuff Will has brought in. I haven’t read it yet myself, but it looks like a good resource. Click on one of the two icons after “Full Image:”.

“A Semi-Pop Non Mathematical Tutorial on Hilbert Space in Quantum Mechanics. by Jack Sarfatti.”

m3

[ 28-02-2002: Message edited by: modthree ]
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:36 / 28.02.02
quote: From birth the mind is called upon to seperate itself from the reality it is brought into.

I don't entirely disagree with this, although I'd contend that it is fairly vague as it stands and could be used to support any number of positions. Not a bad thing perhaps, but not illuminating either.

quote:
By discussing dimensions one is indeed pointing out gaps/ differences.


I think that this is a terribly loose way of arguing. If you want to use the word dimension in this way, feel free. However, I can't help feeling that what you are doing doesn't serve to explain what you are saying in any way. One might say that the presence of an unsuspected dimension leads to consideration of extra information that one had previously ignored. But then, you could just say that.

I would rather say "I have a new friend" than say "My socio interactive circle has acquired a new dimension".

I really dont understand what you mean by dimension except in an illustrative sense.



quote: Once we understand the fabric/pieces the object/whole becomes more fully realised?

I dont think so. There is of course a matter of degree here, but certainly quantum physics is not in any kind of grey area at all. It has nothing to say about morality. Perhaps some of the cruder ideas can be used as an analogy - the sort of things you say in your post. But this seems to me almost deliberately obscure. Quantum theory says some very complex and precise things about very precisely defined objects. None of this pertains to morality. Even physicists concede that quantum physics is mostly irrelevant to large scale phenomena.


quote: If time was a dimension, in the scientific use, and life could exist beyond it, would it not encroach upon the metaphysical.


Once one could explain the meaning to the statement that anything could exist outside time, then one has made a interesting statement. Perhaps. Or perhaps meaningless.


quote: Would the understanding of the missing 'Dark matter' and the dimensional residing of displaced particles, not indeed enter a realm beyond the veil.

Perhaps. Do you intend some particular meaning by "beyond the veil"? What is it?
I'd say it would tell us a lot about cosmology. Is that beyond the veil (of our ignorance)?

quote: Is there a link between the klein bottle and the metaphorical use of the word dimension?


I'd have to say no. The Klein bottle is a very precise mathematical construct. This is like asking whether there is a link between the number two and the concept of democracy. Again, Id say no. Perhaps one might say that modern democracies display dualistic tendencies that are invisaged by the ideal of that ordinal. Such a statement is not a serious attempt at communication - it is a way of obfuscating a point behind terminoligies as to make it sound deeper than it is.
 
 
—| x |—
19:07 / 28.02.02
Some quickly gathered resources on dimensions, etc.:
Escher, Extra dimensions, and Physics.

Hyperspheres and Cosmology. Make sure to check out the essays that this writer links to!

Of value? You decide!

You simply can’t beat the big brains at Cambridge! Poke around this site a bit for an excellent resource!

OK. I gotta' get to reading, but I hope that these help some of you out in some way or another.

m3

[ 28-02-2002: Message edited by: modthree ]
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:55 / 28.02.02
OK - dimensions are an interesting and useful concept in physics. I wouldn't argue with that. Its not very controversial though.

[ 28-02-2002: Message edited by: Lurid Archive ]
 
 
—| x |—
19:57 / 28.02.02
Been meaning to get back to this:

quote:Originally posted by grant:
That depends on what your definition of "perceive" would include.
The only thing immediately to hand, though, would be something that has just happened to you personally.


But what about perceiving events in our mind’s eye? We are certainly able to construct a “virtual” spatial world in our minds that deals with the future possibilities that might confront us. And for any given event that has occurred for us NOW, we are able to (assuming free will) select from an array of possible ways to respond to that event. So I’m not sure if I’m picking up what you’re putting down, but are you saying that the whole of our lifeline might be simply a “memory” or what? And if so, who is it that does the remembering?

m3
 
 
the Fool
20:22 / 28.02.02
Some thoughts,

"does the second dimension, feel time?"

Barbelith is a two dimensional reality, it experiences time. But does it only experience time because beings from a higher reality (3dimensionality) inhabit it? Beings that look at 2d space from a 3d perspective.

This is a interesting metaphor. 2d space was dreamed up by 3 dimensional creatures, then made real (computers/internet). If Artifical Intelligence is created we will have our first 2 dimensional native creature.

My question here is, is reality being reverse engineered? Are we in fact 3d Artifical constructs built by 4d reality engineers, designed to build a functional 2d reality which a 4d individual would have difficulty grasping? If 2d reality engineers create an artifical 1dimensional space and this loop repeats, then 1dimensional could (if the pattern repeats again) create a zero dimensional space.

zero dimensions. singularity. the source. nothing. everything. god?

This is sort of touch on in the invisibles, where 3d individual are 'suits' for higher dimensional (4d or 5d) beings. But are we moving 'up' or 'down' the dimensional stream?
Do we progress 'up' to 4d beings (and then 5th and the 6th) or are we searching 'down' to zero dimensions.
 
 
—| x |—
06:21 / 01.03.02
Will you had posted:

quote: Can I posit the concept that the universe is Chaos Self Organising to allow for constantly splitting possibilities in the paradox. Thus can this concept make allowences for possible lives, without interfering with the dimensional structuring?

And I imagine you can posit whatever you want!

But seriously, I think I might GROK what you are saying here. It seems to me that chaos/order is one of the dualities that turn into an s from a different perspective! I think that here you are making way towards the ideas that follow in your next post. Namely, that we can think of 4D as being an infinite collection of possible worlds. This is interesting because it makes me wonder if time then becomes our way of tracking a path through this 4D structure, or if time gets left out altogether or kicked up into 5D?

In a later post you say:

quote: Sure discussing dimensions is putting the 'gaps' between things

and this seems correct to me. But here I think we can turn to fractals as the glue (if you will) that binds the dimensions together. A peculiar property of fractals is that they exist in between dimensions. For example, the classic Mandelbrot exists in between the second and third dimension. If you looked at the links I provided for Hilbert Space, specifically the one that was pictures of a line filling a plane, then you can see how this works. As the curve becomes ever more complex it starts to move from being a mere line and becomes close to a plane. In the case of a fractal like the Mandelbrot, it’s structure moves beyond the confines of the plane and begins to take on a volume! Seems to me that none of the dimensions are distinct, but are threaded together by complexity; in other words, if you let a line get more and more complex, it becomes a plane, and if you let the plane get more and more complex it becomes space, and if you let the space get more and more complex then…I hope you get the picture I’m attempting to paint!

Lurid Archive sez:

quote: After all, what does quantum physics really tell us about morality? Nothing. What about the relation between cosmology and global politics? There isnt one.

To which I agree with the sentiment of Will’s response quite strongly. I would also add that if we consider one of the implications of Bell’s Theorem—that two particles that were once in contact stay in immediate contact over any separation in spacetime—then we get a direct relation to morality that reflects what Will says about the esoteric notion of “as above, so below.” In other words, it seems to me anyway that Bell’s Theorem is like a variation of “as above, so below:” what appears to be discrete and separate from you is not. For any one object in the world this object relates to every other object in a very “spooky” way. It appears more and more that everything is connected!

Will you post:

quote:There sure is alot of energy in space.

and I’d certainly agree! But don’t forget about old E’s “E=mc^2” which tells us that “energy is matter.” In other words, there is ass loads of energy all around you, and it seems that it is how this energy is distributed that leads to interstellar space. Which is to say, energy/matter is what “populates” all of spacetime: if you take all the energy/matter out, then there is no spacetime! Neat, eh?

Lurid Archive says:

quote: Quantum theory says some very complex and precise things about very precisely defined objects. None of this pertains to morality. Even physicists concede that quantum physics is mostly irrelevant to large scale phenomena.

As I’ve said above, I believe there is a connection. But you are also right that QM is precise with respect to its subject matter which is all these little bits. However, it seems to me that the physicists are stuck with a paradigm that they’ve inherited, and as such, are unable to see outside their definitions of things. In other words (and don’t take this the wrong way, that is, it’s only the way I put this sometimes and is not directed at you), I think that holding that large scale phenomena are basically unaffected by the events which occur in the subatomic world is an archaic and chicken shit view. We have to make the attempt, as Will suggests, to understand how all these bits—at any scale—come together as a whole.

Only the eternal exists “outside” of time, and the eternal exists only relative to a continuum, dig? We get into another dichotomy here, say eternal/continuum that needs to be resolved by coming to see it as an s (for what I mean by an s, please see diZzy, the thread that Will links to at the beginning of this thread!). We simply move from one resolved duality to the next. The problem is that there is always duality as long as there is experience. And I’d like to take a moment to say that I don’t think duality is bad or something to be gotten rid of. Rather, I see dualities as the only way for the world to exist, but they are not really dualities, more like manifestations of a single alternating current.

{0, 1, 2}

PS: the Fool, I like what you add to this discussion and I think that it ties into what I’ve said in the above; however, it’s now late and I’m tired of trying to think so I’ll discuss your thoughts with you later.

G’night.
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:39 / 01.03.02
quote: I think that holding that large scale phenomena are basically unaffected by the events which occur in the subatomic world is an archaic and chicken shit view.

Ckicken shit or not, it lets you predict the orbits of planets and put men on the moon. This is the sort of strong claim that people make that I find hard to take seriously. It usually goes along with a strong anti science sentiment that can be used to justify any claim you like.
eg The earth is flat, its only those boring scientists who refuse to see the truth.

Evolution doesnt work, but those square scientists are too blind to see it.

etc.


As to Quantum theory being connected to morality, No one believes this except in the most superficial and inconsequential way. Suppose it turned out that Planck's constant turned out to be different from what was previously thought. This would cause a revolution in quantum theory. Would it affect your morality? Would it then be ok to kill? No. And you know why? Because quantum theory has nothing to do with morality.

As for as quote: as above, so below
comment; as I said earlier. Its a superficial similarity to a crude notion. A bad analogy, in other words.


As to invoking Bell's theorem to claim that we are interconnected, that is just plain wrong.
quote: For any one object in the world this object relates to every other object in a very “spooky” way.

Bell's Theorem does not say this. It does say that in certain very particular circumstances there is an interconnectedness between certain types of fundamental particle. Doubtless, you'll say that this makes no difference and it comes down to the same thing. To my mind, that would demonstrate a particularly spurious argument.
There are lots of reasons why my actions affect other people's, but these are not to do with the niceties of quantum mechanics.

A lot of your post modthree, with its many references to science is not wrong but you seem to think that you've actually said something. For instance, E=mc^2 relates matter and energy - this is fundamental but you seem to think you have actually said something more than that.

The fact that there are mathematical objects which have fractal dimension. So what?
BTW - fractals cant exist in a quantum universe, so they are ideal mathematical constructs rather than actual objects.
 
 
grant
13:09 / 01.03.02
quote:Originally posted by modthree:
Been meaning to get back to this:

quote:
---------------------------------
Originally posted by grant:
That depends on what your definition of "perceive" would include.
The only thing immediately to hand, though, would be something that has just happened to you personally.
-------------------------------


But what about perceiving events in our mind’s eye? We are certainly able to construct a “virtual” spatial world in our minds that deals with the future possibilities that might confront us.


Like I said, it depends on your definition of "perceive."


quote:but are you saying that the whole of our lifeline might be simply a “memory” or what? And if so, who is it that does the remembering?

Perception and self-hood are intimately tied to one another (one's the subject, the other's the predicate). It's just that the definition of either half of that primal sentence is, of necessity, arbitrary.

So memory is one way to explain perception, yes, if you like. Is it the same thing? Maybe. If a tree falls in the city and *everyone* forgets it, did it ever fall at all?

But we're slipping out of physics and into philosophy.

I suppose, then, the answer to your question - who does the remembering? - is "me". Or "I don't know, why don't you tell me?"
 
 
mr insensitive
20:59 / 01.03.02
You know, if you place a crystal cone directly on top of a small bright light and do so in a dark room, the light 'escapes' the crystal and dissipates ito the room around it. The same thing can, at the quantum-level, be applied to the electrical currents that run through the synapses in out bodies. An early proof-model of telepathy?
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:45 / 04.03.02
quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From birth the mind is called upon to seperate itself from the reality it is brought into.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't entirely disagree with this, although I'd contend that it is fairly vague as it stands and could be used to support any number of positions. Not a bad thing perhaps, but not illuminating either.



As the mind develops and personality forms, differences are duly noted and distance is assumed between the self and others. IMO it is important to note this desire to create 'gaps' between things as a way of endorsing identity. It can be applied to the mind/tool being used to approach dimensions,, metaphorical or empirical.

quote: By discussing dimensions one is indeed pointing out gaps/ differences.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that this is a terribly loose way of arguing. If you want to use the word dimension in this way, feel free. However, I can't help feeling that what you are doing doesn't serve to explain what you are saying in any way. One might say that the presence of an unsuspected dimension leads to consideration of extra information that one had previously ignored. But then, you could just say that.

I would rather say "I have a new friend" than say "My socio interactive circle has acquired a new dimension".

I really dont understand what you mean by dimension except in an illustrative sense.



Or as I later state with regards the possible empowerment of dimensions between science and esoteria/inner dialogue meeting.

'Oh, here is a friend I didn't realise I had all along.'

quote: quote:
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If time was a dimension, in the scientific use, and life could exist beyond it, would it not encroach upon the metaphysical.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once one could explain the meaning to the statement that anything could exist outside time, then one has made a interesting statement. Perhaps. Or perhaps meaningless.



hy-pathetic-ally a creature that existed outside of Time would differ in the decay rate of its atomic structure, it's make up would also allow it to reside in a temporal physical state in reference to our own density.
If our time dimensional existence is a line from a>b through the sphere of the total dimensional experience, then it would exist not as a line, but perhaps a plain or cube? References are made early on in this thread with regards this concept.

quote: Perhaps. Do you intend some particular meaning by "beyond the veil"? What is it?
I'd say it would tell us a lot about cosmology. Is that beyond the veil (of our ignorance)?


my applied use of the word veil is two fold;
firstly it envokes an element of the occult, or things that are not readily seen.
Secondly itrefers to a realm beyond vision, which I used to imply the matter that science currently cannot categorise or detect with instruments. It may well be elements of the universe that we currently occupy and live within.

More to come from the intuitive healer, once I've worked my way through dimensional science 101 (thanks mod3)
 
  

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