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Liber Lilith

  
 
squareye
15:56 / 17.11.06
Hi,

Anyone reading the latest issue from the loins of Starfire - Liber Lilith by Donald Tyson.

For those who don't know this is the latest grimoire 'rediscovered' under the title of creative occultism. It follows in the august footsteps of of those Necronomicons from the 70's.

This one advertises itself as a 'Gnostic Grimoire' and its author has an excellent track record as a publishing and practicing occultist.

Liber Lilith proclaims itself as saved from the ashes of Dr Dee's library at Mortlake in the 1580's and gives the secret cosmology for the 'Mother of Harlots' and spawn of all nightbreed monsters Lilith. Originally cited as the first wife of Adam dumped because she liked to play 'top' position. Anyhow it gives the rites for taking her as lover and guide along with the warnings of descent into madness etc.

Anyway, the reason for this post, do we need another created mythology, list of demons and blasphemous rites, or is there really enough to work with. Are these created grimoires really just re-inventing the wheel?

What do people think?
 
 
electric monk
16:28 / 17.11.06
is there really enough to work with


I don't see any reason to "work with" material that advertises itself as a novel.
 
 
Ticker
16:41 / 17.11.06

Anyway, the reason for this post, do we need another created mythology, list of demons and blasphemous rites, or is there really enough to work with. Are these created grimoires really just re-inventing the wheel?


apart form the specific title... you mean?

in that case sure more mythologies are always welcome and I haven't met one yet that someone can't hang 'created' off of. Mythologies are created that's their evolutionary cycle.

Having not read the specific title I can't really comment to say if it has reinvented the wheel.

Ideally each of us digs into what resonates and reaches for the most powerful sources of inspiration. If you haven't found yours in someone else's version why the hell not make your own? That said there is no excuse for crappy scholarship on existing Archetypes or tie-ins or sloppy lazy writing just because one can't be bothered to do research.

I'm constantly in awe of various authors' unique perception of reality and gather useful insights from them. Are there a hundred non appealing titles for each meaningful one? Probably.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:48 / 17.11.06
I don't see any reason to "work with" material that advertises itself as a novel.

Really? There's all kinds of truth to be found in fiction.

--Ember--
 
 
electric monk
03:06 / 18.11.06
I feel ya.

However, I strongly believe that chasing fictions too far is a dead end at best. F'r example, I like the Harry Potter movies. They're a fun ride, the effects are pretty damn good, and there are a few quite nice messages in them about friendship, bravery, doing what's right, etc. But I'm certainly not going to study them very closely or work with the materials they present. So I guess that gives you an idea of where I place novels by Donald Tyson and their importance in the overall scheme of things.

Liber Lilith proclaims itself as saved from the ashes of Dr Dee's library at Mortlake in the 1580's and gives the secret cosmology for the 'Mother of Harlots' and spawn of all nightbreed monsters Lilith.

Does it now? Faaaaantastic. I can hear the covens of Lovecraft furiously clicking Amazon links even now.


I realize I'm being bull-headed and shitty about this. I know there's history and precedent for this kind of thing. I will grant you that some powerful truths can and do travel in the realm of fiction. But if Donald Tyson has come upon a new twist, elaboration, or advancement on Dee's system, then he should write a real and truthful account of it. Something useful to the other people who're using Dee's system now and the ones who'll come after.

I've got no time for "creative occultism". I really don't. It's a personal thing, and I'm not saying I'm RIGHT. This kind of thing just does nothing for me.
 
 
Papess
11:03 / 18.11.06
I am surprised at Tyson. I thought he was more facts-based than this. I wonder why he wrote it.
 
 
Quantum
14:09 / 18.11.06
Sounds like an RPG supplement to me.
 
 
Kirk Ultra
05:06 / 19.11.06
RPG supplements are another great source for magic.

I haven't read Liber Lilith, but as long as people know its fiction when they're playing with it, there's no reason somebody couldn't use its themes for magic. It's really all about how you approach it. From a fiction magic and chaos magic perspective, everything is fair game.
 
 
Unconditional Love
07:18 / 19.11.06
From a certain view point lilith isnt fiction, liber lilith IS, but not lilith, that would be my only raised eyebrow, chaos magic really should just stick to doing fiction, and should approach any living or dead system with the due care and attention they deserve, which is alot.

Magical fiction on the otherhand, is just good,bad or mediocre fiction, not knowing since i have not read it.

I like the way you have put chaos and fiction magic together, its fiting.

I am intrested in what factual magic would be in contrast in your opinion?
 
 
Unconditional Love
07:20 / 19.11.06
Do you subscribe to the idea of factual fictional magick for example?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:07 / 19.11.06
I haven't looked at Liber Lilith. Donald Tyson is quality though. You don't edit and annotate Agrippa without knowing not just your onions, but your shallots, garlic and more besides. If he's decided to express certain aspects of his personal understanding of the mysteries through a fictional grimoire rooted solidly in experiential work - then I'm sure it will be interesting and worth a look.

I think my only criticism would be directed towards the people who buy this book and view it exclusively as a textbook that they can follow from A to B, effectively working Mr Tyson's "system" as a thing in itself, rather than appreciating it as an expression of someone's personal truth uncovered through working their magic. I think the same criticism applies to Kenneth Grant and his followers. Crowley and Thelema as well, really.

I think you can learn a lot from studying someone else's magic, both in terms of inspiration and practical workable gear. But I think it's problematic to think that anyone else's 'grimoire' can or should be replicated to the letter with no intervening space for direct insight and gnosis of your own. These things are perhaps like knitting patterns or recipe books, that give you an idea of the basics of how someone else has done it and made it work, so that you can go off and make it work for yourself bringing your own creativity, heart and soul to the mix.

"Created grimoire" could mean a lot of things. I'd give shorter shrift to the creative grimoire of a 24-year old chaos magician who has sat down with a pad of paper and devised a complete "system" of magic (exactly like they would devise a roleplaying game scenario) and then published it as a grimoire - having missed out the important bit of actually doing the fucking work and finding out if any of your speculations are true.

Magic is unpredictable. You might have an intellectual idea of how something might conceivably work, but often when you put it into practice, take it before the Gods or Spirits, bring it into the heat of the moment, it all falls apart and you have to revise your opinions in the light of the results it gives you. This has happened to me countless times, and I'd go as far to say that this living process of trial and error is how you actually learn magic.

If your "created grimoire" has been through this process, and is the creative elucidation of your magical experiences over many years, then I think its a totally different ball game. Based solely on Donald Tyson's other work, I'd be more inclined to think that this book is a product of the latter process. That he didn't just knock it together on a saturday night after a few beers, but its rooted in magic lived. Sometimes fiction is a good avenue for putting down essential truths that resist factual exposition.

From a fiction magic and chaos magic perspective, everything is fair game.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with that as a blanket statement. There's been a lot of interesting debate on barbelith over the last couple of years about the experiential differences that people have observed from working with purely fictional magic (Batman, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc) and magic that has the weight of history behind it and has developed organically within a culture over thousands of years. I don't personally think the chaos magic approach to utilising fictional characters as if they were no different from established deities is without its flaws and blindspots - but its a debate that comes up from time to time.
 
 
Quantum
21:28 / 19.11.06
RPG supplements are another great source for magic.

I've found Bullseye, the popular TV darts quizshow, to also be a fantastic source of magical powerz.

I respect Tyson's work (that I'm familiar with) but I'd take issue with the idea that you can use any source as magic equally, maybe it's time for me to bump some threads.
 
 
setsuna
00:39 / 20.11.06
Tyson actually discusses the creation of Liber Lilith in the introduction to his book Sexual Alchemy. He started it in 1991 and claims it was an inspired work, as well as a darker depiction of Lilith than he what personally holds to. But based on his work, I'd say he's writing from a great deal of experience.

I can't judge whether what he lays out is the real deal or not, since I've never attempted a sexual union with a spirit entity, but I thought his description of the locations and sensations of the chakras and kundalini was very accurate, and that alone was enough to convince me he knew what he was talking about. I'm easy sometimes, though.

But if Sexual Alchemy is the sort of experience and research he's put into Liber Lilith, it should be a pretty good read. Probably even useful to some extent. If one is into that sort of thing, of course.
 
 
ghadis
01:18 / 20.11.06
but I thought his description of the locations and sensations of the chakras and kundalini was very accurate

May be cool to spark off this Kundalini thread again from this.

and also...

The thread on Body Alchemy...

Sorry for the slight thread rot. I havn't read Liber Lilith yet but thought it would be interesting to hear some more ideas on Kundalini etc. And it's cool to meet the new influx of Barb people (Welcome!) and hear their thoughts...
 
 
squareye
13:36 / 20.11.06
As noted above Liber Lilith is well written and very well reasearched; as you would expect from Donald Tyson. I go along with the above comment that it is an inspired work and not to be taken too literally (esp. Ch. 21!!!).

However the surrounding analysis of Lilith and Gnosticism is worth it and he nicely shows the strands of development of the grimoire model of magical presentation. So for any serious occultist put it on your Xmas list!
 
 
Papess
14:21 / 20.11.06
You read this, squareye? Thank you for the confirmation on the recommendation.


Tyson actually discusses the creation of Liber Lilith in the introduction to his book Sexual Alchemy. He started it in 1991 and claims it was an inspired work, as well as a darker depiction of Lilith than he what personally holds to.

Yes, now that you mention it, I do recall reading this.
 
  
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