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My infinite source of free energy looks sorta like a toaster...

 
 
Mister Snee
00:33 / 28.01.02
I'd find it hard to believe that nobody's posted about this yet, so if indeed someone has just knock me on my ass.

Some anonymous guy in Ireland has claimed to have invented a self-replenishing power source. You know, ye older perpetual-motion zero-point breaks-every-law-of-thermodyanmics infinite supply of free power. There's a web page about the thing at http://www.jasker.com . He apparently put on a demonstration for Reuters and the story made it into several respectable publications, like CNN. Note that any elements of skepticism in that article (like the revised headline mentioning that it may be a hoax) are recent additions since some outrage about its unquestioning, breathless publishing by news sources all over the place.

In other words, it seems some Irish bloke has pulled a really good one on the world. Nonetheless, he's sticking to it -- twice since the Reuters article, jasker.com has been updated with little blurbs defending the device against the more common attacks that've been heard thus far, such as the mention of three 100-watt lightbulbs pulling 4500 watts from a battery bank, and the embarassing quote that "perpetual motion is impossible. This is a self-sustaining unit which at the same time provides surplus electrical energy."

Basically, between the extravagant claims, the "inventor"'s anonymity, the complete ambiguity towards the actual principles the device functions on and the fact that jasker.com belongs to http://diyhousesales.com this seems like an obvious hoax. Still, wouldn't it be neat?

Aw well.
 
 
The Monkey
02:23 / 28.01.02
There's a great book called "Voodoo Science"--I don't like the title, but the content is good.
S'about common scams in the scientific arena, the granddaddy of which is cold fusion/unlimited easy energy. The sad thing's is half the bloody inventors start believing their own hype.
And they're always reticent to show anyone how it works...you're just supposed to buy it.... And they're never generous enough to just give it to the whole world: they always just build a tiny machine for consumer purposes....
Probably just more crap. And the people at CNN are bloody daft...this is like the eighth time they've covered an energy-generating device.
 
 
grant
14:03 / 28.01.02
"Be patient.
All will be revealed presently."

Heheh.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:05 / 28.01.02
And if it's not an infinite source of free energy, it's an antigravity device.
 
 
The Monkey
09:45 / 29.01.02
If various government conspiracies don't bump them off before the Big Revelation....

They should all get painted wagons, a straw hat and red-striped suit, and a scantily clad-girl named "Misty," then sell this stuff town-to-town.

Hold on, that's practically what they're doing anyway....
 
 
Lionheart
18:28 / 29.01.02
Ok. I have to admit now that i'm a little bit mad at you people. Have any of you actually read anything o the site?

The device IS NOT a perpetual motion device. Nobody cares for perpetual motion devices because a they could exist in a vacuum.

And b.)... they DO NOT produce energy so they cannot work as source of energy.

Plus the inventor claims that the device doesn't break the laws of thermodynamics.

http://www.jasker.com/article4.htm

but I'm not going to go on about this invention. Instead i'm gonna point a few other things out.

quote:There's a great book called "Voodoo Science"--I don't like the title, but the content is good.
S'about common scams in the scientific arena, the granddaddy of which is cold fusion/ unlimited easy energy. The sad thing's is half the bloody inventors start believing their own hype.
And they're always reticent to show anyone how it works...you're just supposed to buy it.... And they're never generous enough to just give it to the whole world: they always just build a tiny machine for consumer purposes....
Probably just more crap. And the people at CNN are bloody daft...this is like the eighth time they've covered an energy-generating device.


Almost all of thse statements are wrong (except for the CNN one.)

The cold fusion thing wasn't a scam.

If one actually does any research one finds out that two scientists claimed to have discovered how to do cold fusion in their lab but when the experiment was repeated in other labs it didn't work.

This was in 1989. Critics of the 2 scientists started calling it all a hoax.

All of the books that you will read criticising the cold fusion research people don't follow the research PAST 1989!!!

"Why? What happened after 1989?" you might ask.

Very good question. What happened after 1989 was the following. A flaw was discovered in the report was discovered in the original detail of the cold fusion experiment. It turned out that the chemical which the 2 scientists used actually existed in 2 forms. A pourous form and a solid form. The lab scientists in the original experiemtnt used the less common pourous form. The follow up experiments used the more common SOLID FORM!

So basically the experiments were repeated with the pourous form and guess what? They worked! The experiment was confirmed!

So why aren't we seeing cold fusion being mass produced?

For the same reason why the Sterling internal combustion engine, which is extremely efficient, invented in the early 1900s is just now being put into mass production.

For the same reason why a South African inventor who invented a car that runs on compressed air has gotten 6 death threats in 2 months.

And for the exact same reason why Nicholas Tesla's inventions aren't well nkown. The same reason why Tesla isn't well known. And maybe for the same reason why the Smithsonian has been supressing information on Tesla's discoveries.

See, cold fusion has been perfected in 1992! But all the critics and "debunkers" don't follow the whole story past 1989!

And inventors love to show their works. It's just that nobody's willing to look at them!

There are hundreds if not thousands of free/alternative enrgy patents available from the U.S. Patent Server.

And guess what?

In 1957, two guys named Lee and Yang won the Nobel Prize in Physics for bascially showing that you can extract free energy from the vacuum using a dipole.

http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/112101.htm

And see if Voodoo Science mention s the T.T. Brown effect which has recently been proven by (guess whom?)... NASA.

And see if it mentions homeopathic solutions? Which have alsobeen recently proven.
 
 
The Monkey
09:14 / 30.01.02
Fair points, Lionheart. Before, I was just futzing around, not really being serious. However, in the name of journalistic inquiry I started digging around:

Re: the 1989 experiment--gimme the paper. Gimme a non-internet publication. Give me a unviersity press that lays out the entire experiment, not just sez it worked or didn't. What was the chemical, with the porous/solid difference? I coulnd't find that last bit explained anywhere.
Secondly, the 1989 cold-fusion experiment was the tip of the iceburg in terms of free-energy devices, but garnered attention because it was in a pukka lab.

Second: go to the Nobel Prize website, where they have all of the Laureates listed along with their accomplishments. Yang and Lee invented an experiment that generated quantum theory. It was a huge contribution to the understanding of states of matter and energy, but it's not what your link claims it is. You can also read their lectures in pdf formats. No mention of power-supply application.

And did you know that anyone can get a patent in the US for anything as long as they send in a diagram--again, go to the website. I'd post, but I'm a little internet daft. If I throw together enough relays and geegaws in a big shiny box, make drawings and photos, and piece together an explanation of what's supposed to happen, I have a patent. You never have to show that the machine works.

As for the Stirling Engine, I know what one is: I'm a fairly good mechanic. If you don't know by now, it has practical application limitations...look here: www.howstuffworks.com/stirling-engine4.htm
Stirling engines are applied on in cases where you need power at a precise, constant level: where there's power fluctuations requires, i.e. the piston of a car engine, it ain't so good.

Note that the new cars coming out aren't pure Stirling engines; they're hybrids. (which is progress, I admit)

Who's the South African inventor? Where did you hear about the death threats? Rumor? Self-report? From a poster board of alternative-science people?
Oh, gee, not that someone couldn't make that up. Even physical evidence of death threats tells you nothing...it's the easiest thing in the world to fake.

"Dear South African inventor,
We cigar-chomping bigwigs in the petroleum industry feel threatened by your new invention. Please stop or we'll kill you.
Signed,
Us."

Anyway, there's a lot easier ways to get rid of people than death threats. I sitting in my dinky little apartment can think of three or four ways off the bat. Cause an accident. Get him committed. Arrest him for something scandalous, like pedophilia. Sure, in all of these case, they'll be remaining, hard-core believers, but they can be written off as kooks.
If there was a real "conspiracy," we'd never know, no matter how much you delude yourself with "Lone Rangers" fantasies. The quantity of disinformation circulated by the US govt alone guarantees that half of the sacred cows of the intellectual underground are pure fiction. Go look at the de-classified stuff from the 40s and 50s...the wacky stuff that the US encouraged people to believe in to conceal much more concrete, insidious projects.
And if you were being hounded by a shadowy conspiracy, why wouldn't you diseminate the information to everyone, including other members of the scientific community who could verify it? Or can absolutely everyone in modern science be bought?

BTW, the inventors love to show their works...but not how everything inside functions. I've been to some of these little back-yard easy-energy shows...they come through my neck of the woods (NWern Kentucky) on a regular basis, trying to sell to the right-wing self-sufficient types and the really poor who are looking for short-cuts on their bills. Guess what? The machines don't work the way they say they will. Quel fucking surprise. A lot of the devices are Stirling engines that eventually wear down, not the "miraculous devices" they're purported to be. I've taken apart a few after they stopped working.

So cut the we-the-oppressed-enlightened-ones routine. Lots of people buy, lots of people see.

BTW, Tom Bearden is one of the big gurus of all sorts of different free energy devices, and a bigwig in the "power conspiracy" circulars, too, if you didn't know. From a skeptical perspective, this is like taking the opinion of Jerry Falwell on the authenticity of the Bible as "fact" or citing the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." I suggest you explore other sources.

The Bufield-Brown effect, not unlike the Lee/Yang quantum theory experiments, does not necessarily create energy in any productive fashion that can be harnessed into mechanical systems. Furthermore, Brown himself wrote a paper in 1929 contradicting his own assertion regarding "electrogravitics," stating the effect was ionic, not gravitational.
Furthermore, digging around on the NASA website, the application of the Bufield-Brown effect NASA was exploring had to do with aerodynamic entropic effects and their counteraction, not power-generation.

I've never heard of homeopathic power (pleae exaplain), but I can tell you that homeopathic medicine is a crock of shit.

First of all, homeopathy is based on the idea that a little bit of poison will cure. Very Paracelsus, completely earlier than molecular chemistry, back in the days when substances had "essences." Well, things don't have essences, nor do they work on the body because of those innate qualities...it's biding sites, cataylsis, etc. Secondly, after the standard number of dilutions for a homeopathic tonic, there's isn't any "medicine" left--it's all water.

So the new position in homeopathy is that the water "encodes" the molecular formation of the diluted "medicine," an idea mentioned in the Invisibles by Mason. Now, why would the water "encode" that, but not encode the lead, mercury, and other contaminants that have passed through it? Give the modern state of water circulation, consider that we consume a great deal of H2O that was previous ly urine. If water can truly "encode" the molecular structure of the molecules passed through it, we'd all be dead of urea poisoning.

Lionheart, maybe you're just playing devil's advocate...I don't know you. But I suggest to you that skepticism does not mean simply accepting whole a different paradigm...just because free-energy scientists are an excluded minority doesn't mean there's any truth to what they're saying.

Question
absolutley
fucking
eveything.
Except the Archons, who send their love.
[smack]

[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: [infinite monkeys] ]

[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: [infinite monkeys] ]
 
 
Mister Snee
09:14 / 30.01.02
All fair points by everyone, on every side of the board. You all get a cookie.

I've got very little to say, except this, in regards to what Lionheart mentioned about the claims that the Jasker device functions "in accordance with all physical laws". The following is from the Jasker website:

quote:It is the inventor's assertion that each independent system stage of the operational module when considered separately, each adheres with all acknowledged and certified mathematical and physics laws. The invention is based on the interaction of each independent system stage with the preceding and succeeding; thereafter it is quite simply cause and effect.

Now let's parse this into human language:
"It's not magic.
The parts are connected."

Take either form of that description and apply to it to any single piece of functional equipment, electronic or mechanical, that you own. It says nothing.

The complete vacuum of content from which statements like this arise are what're setting off my BS detector here. I mean, aside from the "free energy scam" stigma. Hey, I'm harbouring as much guilty hope as anyone else that these people have actually made some revolutionary leap forward in generator technology and just have no idea how to handle it yet, like how much to reveal about the invention or about themselves. But it is, as they say, Not Bloody Likely.
 
 
grant
14:30 / 30.01.02
I'm going to revive the homeopathic medicine thread - it helps explain the recently-discovered mechanism Lionheart alludes to there.

I'll also add that where the frustrated inventor sees a conspiracy, I generally see the utter inertia of society.

[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: grant ]
 
 
Lionheart
17:20 / 30.01.02
Whoo, boy. Somebody must've really misunderstood my posts.

Basically the August 1993 Popular Science magazine not only gives all the info but it also gives a diagram on how to build the device.

The chemical is Palladium.

The power supply application is explained in the link that I gave you.

The patent thing was mentioned because you said that most free eenrgy inventors refuse to show their inventions to the outside world and tell people to buy it beofre seeing it. I pointed out that's not true for many reasons. The biggest reason being that most of these free-energy inventors patent their inventions so anyone can see how they are built by going on the U.S. patent server and looking 'em up.

And I find it interesting that you dismiss Tomas Bearden without giving a reason for dismissing him. You call him a "bigwig" and "guru" but you don't give a suficient reason for dismissing him.

And NOWHERE did I say that the T.T. Brown effect is a free-energy thing. I was just asking you if Voodoo science mentions him. You didn't answerr my question.

I also asked if the book mentions Homeopathic medicine. You didn't reply to my question and started going on about me mentioning somethoing about "Homeopathic energy". You either didn't read my post all the way through or you've misunderstood what I've said.

By the way, I didn't know that the new Sterling engines are hybrids. Thanks for the link.

I don't remember the name of the South African inventor. There was a lin kposted up on the past incarnation of Barbelith but it's gone now.
 
 
The Monkey
19:25 / 30.01.02
Hmm...sorry, overenthusiastic.

Yes, the book has a chapter on homeopathy, but I can't recall there being a bit about the Bufield-Brown. But that may just be my shoddy memory.

I personally doubt Bearden because he spends more time denouncing scientific conspiracies against his work than actually attempting to prove his position. The other half of that being, he doesn't really have a solid position even within free-energy research. He bounces about between palladium-based cells and electrogravitics and whatnot. I put him in the same pointless gadfly category as Duesburg and HIV.

BTW, palladium catalysts are the apple pie of free-energy cells. some of the slier scheysters to come to my next of the woods even threw in "palladium" in their description. Now the porous-versus-solid distinction makes sense...would like to see more on this, if you have a post.

And to obtain copies of someone's patent record requires both money, an understanding of the bureacratic structure, and sufficient technological understanding to read the diagrams, etc. Just like the Jasker system can be made to sound very reasonable by using round-about language, sufficiently vague diagrammatic explanations can make the free-energy cell seem legit.

Yet a lot of the same people won't let you take a look inside of the device itself when you're standing there in front of it [personal experience].

Personally, I love the idea of "free energy,"
but I just don't buy any of the offered-up ideas, given the current state of physics. The empirical paradigm of publish so it can be replicated over and over is a good one. Sadly, economics hamstrings the thing from the start...very few people pay for a "legitamite" scientist to repeat the experiment of a "kook."

Sometimes I think that free energy guys do get a hard rap from standard physics, but this sort of collapse into sub-culture probably isn't going to help the situation.

Right now my sincere interest lies in the direction of biotic/chemosynthetic power sources...sort of the vat of bacteria model...
 
 
Enamon
04:46 / 31.01.02
I refrained from posting here for a bit but here I am.

Ah, the JASKER device. Hoax or not it doesn't matter since there is insufficient information for us to determine anything. Wait. Scratch that. There is NO information. So don't worry about it so much.

Still I had fun reading the news reports. Three 100 watt light bulbs powered by this machine only require 450 watts to operate! Ok so it's not a direct quote but what the hell. The numbers are correct. Apparently someone at Reuters forgot their multiplication tables. 3 light bulbs x 100 watts each = 300 watts altogether. Instead they draw 450 watts from the machine. Now last time I checked 450 watts was waaay more power than 300 watts. How is this free energy? More like pretty damn expensive and inefficient energy!

One of the articles also stated that hooking up a voltmeter to the machine showed that 49 volts were put in the machine and the machine put out 51 volts. Wow! Higher voltage! Now that's REAL proof of free energy! Christ on a pogo stick! Apparently these reporters have never even heard of a step-up transformer. Who hires there people?

Now onto some other points. I would have liked to comment a bit on cold fusion but first I think I'd like counter some of [infinite monkeys] points (monkeys!).

First off:

quote:Second: go to the Nobel Prize website, where they have all of the Laureates listed along with their accomplishments. Yang and Lee invented an experiment that generated quantum theory. It was a huge contribution to the understanding of states of matter and energy, but it's not what your link claims it is. You can also read their lectures in pdf formats. No mention of power-supply application.

First off all, Yang & Lee did not invent an experiment that "generated quantum theory". I mean come on, don't you remember Max Planck? Quantum theory's been around since 1912!

Second of all, one of the... grievances(right word?) that I have with the Noble Prize web site is that it only lists the Nobel lectures of the Nobel laureates. My friend, these people have done their work some time before they were awarded the Nobel prize. Their Nobel lectures serve only as a brief overview of their work. To get all the details one must read their original papers. In this case the original papers are:

T. D. Lee, "Weak Interactions and Nonconservation of Parity," Nobel Lecture, Dec. 11, 1957. In T. D. Lee, Selected Papers, Gerald Feinberg, Ed., Birkhauser, Boston, 1986, Vol. 1, p. 32-44

and

T. D. Lee and C. N. Yang, "Question of Parity Conservation in Weak Interactions," Phys. Rev., 104(1), 1956, p. 254-258; ----- "Parity Nonconservation and a Two-Component Theory of the Neutrino," Phys. Rev., 105(5), 1957, p. 1671-1675

Now that that is behind us I'd like to counter another statement of yours;
quote:I personally doubt Bearden because he spends more time denouncing scientific conspiracies against his work than actually attempting to prove his position. The other half of that being, he doesn't really have a solid position even within free-energy research.

On the first part of your statement (i.e. "Bearden because he spends more time denouncing scientific conspiracies against his work than actually attempting to prove his position.") I would like to say that from what I have seen of his work he tends to almost totally refrain from speaking of scientific conspiracies against his or anyone else's work. I do not know why you have the perspective that you do know because I do not know how and where you came across his work. All I can do is point you to his website. That website being:
http://www.cheniere.org

I greatly advise you to browse through the Correspondences section of the site. It is one of the few sections of the site that is regularly updated.

Alas, as I look at the clock I see that it is now 2:44 in the morning. I will respond some more later when I have more time. I will elaborate some more on this cold fusion controversy. However I would like to point out an error in one of Lionheart's posts. He stated that "cold fusion was perfected in 1992". "Cold fusion" (and I put the term in quotes because there is still doubt as to what truly occurs in such a setup on a nuclear level) is not yet perfected. It has not yet been developed to such a point where it can serve as a continuous source of power. That goal continues to remain unfulfilled (at least to the best of my knowledge). The same thing applies to hot fusion (once more - "at least to the best of my knowledge").

Thank you for reading my somewhat lengthy post. I await your replies!
 
 
The Monkey
05:43 / 31.01.02
I'm not good enough at physics to explain well what they actually did. I summarized poorly.

Hear ye, hear ye,
I renounce that statement about the Lee/Yuang experiment. I shall now go flog myself through the streets of Chicago.

As for the bit about Bearden...look at his lecture schedule sometime on the "power conspiracy" and his interviews and posts on other websites. And apparently you haven't read his website very closely...most of the non-Correspondence articles are about "discoveries" crushed by economic interests. Furthermore, did you actually read the bit about weapons-grade mycobacteria?

Anyway, my dark masters are reeling under your comparable level of smugness, and I don't think they're gonna let me play with you anymore.
 
 
Slate
00:28 / 22.08.06
I have found no working links left in the thread regarding the Jasker machine, but I was wondering if they are the same Irish guys who are behind Steorn? I might start getting a compendium together of new free energy start-ups, I think the list will be growing now the term "Peak Oil" is being bandied around. I will be watching this Steorn website with interest, I wonder how long before it goes the way of the Jasker?

Jasker1
Jasker2
Jasker3
Jasker4
 
 
Ninjas make great pets
11:31 / 22.08.06
ahh the stoern thing has me giggling like a school girl. They've been on the radio here since last week. They've put an ad in the economist.
If it's real - it's exciting. If its a hoax - it's a very well funded one and I'd love to know what they're up to!

The office isn't too far away from here.. think some footwork is in order.

Checkout the Steorn forum on their website.
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
23:51 / 05.09.06
The Steorn thing is very intriguing. Whilst I'm very cyinical, I can't help but hope it's true (despite their unusual approach at convincing us it is).

Keeping close tabs on this - can't wait to see how it pans out, for entertainment value if nothing else.
 
 
Slate
04:58 / 08.09.06
1 day left folks
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
08:39 / 06.10.06
FAQs now available at Steorn forum

No real questions answered...

Although this question, if answered honestly, proves pertinent:

Question:
In one of the forum posts a retired patent attorney commented on the number of countries and regions for which you had applied for patents. It was his opinion that this patent application cost in the area of $1,000,000. Have or will you spend more or less than that on patents?

Answer:
We expect to spend more than this over the life time of the patents.

If this is accurate, then why would they already have spent so much on patent applications if theit technology doesn't work and therefore can't earn them anything?

If it's a publicity stunt it's the one most destined for failure and bankruptcy I've ever seen.
 
 
Slate
00:30 / 12.02.07
Steorn have had a re-brand to Orbo. I am still waiting for the cracks to appear, so far it's been a heap of Forum wrangling. I would like to see them succeed, I like underdog's.
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
23:51 / 25.04.07
New video HERE.

They seem to be putting their money where their mouth is, but I'm still infinitely sceptical.
 
 
Red Concrete
06:19 / 05.07.07
Some pics of the machine are released, and it was apparently going to be on demonstration in London (but it seems to be botched already). I never heard anything from the "panel of scientists" that were supposedly evaluating this, and I've no time to investigate right now...
 
 
Slate
10:38 / 02.03.10
*bump*

Steorn looks like they are surviving? Or at least trying to.

STEORN LIMITED ORBO Technology DEVELOPER LICENSE v1.0
 
 
haus of fraser
10:11 / 05.03.10
I think we should keep in mind that Tom's a bloody expert on webby issues, and that were his proposal to come to pass we'd be looking at a very different set-up.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:54 / 05.03.10
Oh thank Darwin. Lab was feeling all ignored there for a moment.
 
 
Haus Of Pain
11:03 / 05.03.10
Jackson is off The Hobbit

Boooooooooo!!!
 
 
haus of fraser
11:04 / 05.03.10
I think this thread is about seperating disagreement from hostility and about giving people the chance to unpick things if those distinctions get a bit blurred.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:39 / 05.03.10
YOU'RE about seperating disagreement from hostility and about giving people the chance to unpick things if those distinctions get a bit blurred.

Bah-zing!
 
 
haus of fraser
12:38 / 05.03.10
Okay, okay, okay, perhaps that was an unfair characterisation. I'm really not trying to piss you off. I DO empathise.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:16 / 06.03.10
Your face empathises.
 
 
haus of fraser
10:28 / 06.03.10
We have a similar sense of humour, so... Your Mum: A pig, is one of my favs.
 
 
Haus Of Pain
13:12 / 12.03.10
Unless someone wants to flesh this thread out - and I don't - I'm going to move for a deletion.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:58 / 15.03.10
You're all talk.
 
 
Mister Snee
20:33 / 11.02.12
Wow I wrote this a long time ago and you can still find it in the laboratory

I'm watching a guy who claims to have cold fusion or LENR now making something called the E-Cat, find the Energy Catalyzer page on Wikipedia about it if you want

Obviously this guy's thing didn't come to anything, good
 
  
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