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Underground > Temple >

Choose your deity vs. divine channeling

00:03 / 11.11.06

I have always been intrigued by the idea of working with different gods, the god in question depending on your personal preference at the time (or more than that). Yet most of my hands-on spiritual development has come from a very different background, that involves "guides" and "channeling". The group I currently work with (though not for much longer cos I am moving) are very much into these things. The group is ostensibly involved with reiki, but welcomes healers of any stripe, and the woman who runs the group has seemingly channeled a different healing energy to reiki as well (it seems very different to me, having been attuned in both). What I am interested in is the perhaps New Age concept of "guides" as opposed to the more occult "choose who you want to work with". An easy answer I came up with is that you have healing guides if you are involved with healing, who help you heal people. I cannot deny this, because to me it seems to be true, thanks to experiential evidence. But what of those who decide to "channel", to let a non-specified but "high-up" entity start working through them and telling them what to do?

I have met a few people who have this relationship with the spirit world, who have not chosen who they work with but still work with them. I also see the people talking about devoting themselves to one godform or another because of their concious needs, and wonder what people with experience of these things would have to say?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:40 / 11.11.06

I think it varies from person to person. Speaking from personal experience, there is a world of difference between guides, the kind that pop up when you start healing and help you out, and Gods.

I have two guides who put in an appearence not long after my first Reiki attunement. I didn't 'choose' them, in the sense that I wasn't really expecting to get guides and they just showed up in my life rather than bidding for a contract. But they were very gentle about the chosing, making it clear that I didn't have to work with them if I didn't want to, or even believe that they were real. They told me to give things time, get used to them and see how I got on. I decided to go along with it and I'm very happy that I did. They jump in and help out with my Reiki and help me in lots of other ways.

Gods are different. You can choose Them, selecting a being who appears to match your temprament or needs, but for reasons I don't really understand some of us seem to come into the world with PROPERTY OF [DEITY]--IF FOUND PLEASE RETURN stamped on our foreheads. Sometimes it is possible for someone who's been tapped by a particular deity to get a sort of provisional patron or matron to work with, but when the real deal turns up they know all about it. Some people might maintain a relationship with the deity they originally started out with but it's not unknown for that being to withdraw completely, or for the incoming power to demand that the person breaks off contact.

When a person's 'owner' shows up, They might make Themselves known in a number of different ways. Some people are dimly aware of their deity throughout their lives, and may be unsurprised when Ze finally puts in an appearance. Some people are gently courted over a period of time; some are claimed and set to work almost overnight. Some people may welcome their patron with open arms, others might go kicking and screaming. It varies. Some Gods are easier to accept than others.

I understand that in some traditions, such as Vodoun, everyone is thought to belong to a particular being, and divination is conducted to find out who owns you.

08:55 / 12.11.06

Wow, Mordant, that's pretty much everything I could have thought of and a bit more, in about half the space!

--Ember--

18:15 / 12.11.06

Yeah, thanks for the great reply, it really clarified things. I realise now that working with gods and with guides would be very different, in terms of the kind of relationship and the manner of communication. I suppose it is, like you say, up to the individual to decide who and what they want to work with. It seems to happen to quite a few people who practice Reiki or other similar healing arts that they start perceiving and working with guides who help them in healing others and themselves. Often when I am healing others they report feeling hands as well as my own over them, and I take this to mean a guide is working with me. I have also been told that I have them hanging around, by people who can percieve such things. No conscious communication as yet, but I try to be open and receptive to it. I see that working with various entities is not necessarily an "either or" relationship like I thought it might have been, which is good to know.

The business of gods actively seeking people out also provides much food for thought. I shall see what happens!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:31 / 12.11.06

If you have guides and they're helping you (and it sounds like they are), you may never need to communicate consciously. Do your thing and let them do theirs. If they need to speak, they will.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

18:01 / 13.11.06

I've had some experience with animal spirits, and have a small menagerie accumulating on which I can draw: deer, monkey, cat, hummingbird, etc...

in each case, they came to me - as much as I would have sought them out had I believed in totems - on the dance floor.

during a period of emotional withdrawal & stress some years back, I'd locked myself in my room, and did my best to avoid confrontation with housemates - in the small hours of sleep-deprived night, I had the definite, feeling that there was a palpable presence in the room with me.

this got my attention, but the feelings I got from this presence (felt like 2 entities), were of concern, caring and watching over my poor spirit. I recovered from my malaise shortly thereafter, and haven't encountered the entities again.

although, I get the distinct impression they would be available if I had a need to call. I didn't choose them, however, it feels as if they are among the entities upon which I can call, should the need arise.

almost like wait staff: "Hullo, I'll be your divine servitor for the evening. Please let me know if you need extra breadsticks..."

It seems that the process is one of recognition of our own nature reflected.

-- excellent posts --

ta

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

17:02 / 14.11.06

yeah, I don't know where animal spirits fit into the guide/god scale of things, but I definitely have felt before that it's me getting picked, not me picking someone else. on beyond animal/other spirits, the bigger the thingy is, the less it seems to be up to me what happens. one of my big remaining philosophical conflicts is reconciling my belief that you have to have an I Can Do Anything! attitude to get anywhere with the realization that some things really are not at all up to me, and that one day the Hand of Zeus (as my friend says) may pick my ass up and hurl me into a big vat of What The Fuck.

23:27 / 14.11.06

I don't think the gods/guides/allies/ancestors categories are what define who chooses who.

I have Gods I have chosen to work with and Allies I sought out. I have Gods who chose me like-it-or-not, and Allies that showed up of Their own accord.

But that brings me right back where I always sit - Gods, Allies, Spirits, whatever. They're just different kinds of people. Relationships build the way they do. Sometimes you meet somebody because you decided they looked cool and chose to go talk to 'em and see if something clicked. Sometimes they thought you looked cool. Sometimes your parents put you in the same playpen over and over, so you couldn't help it.

Some friends are there for as long as you both can manage it. Others come and go as your situations coincide.

How does it help to try and categorize time and motive by type?

--Ember--

Less searchable M0rd4nt

00:12 / 15.11.06

Yeah, I've found that categories like that aren't terribly helpful, really. It's generally best just to get on with things and see how they pan out.

05:51 / 15.11.06

I have found categories to be useful in theory, just to give one a sense of scope. But it's not useful to assume categories along one spectrum will correlate to any other spectrum.

--Ember--

12:25 / 15.11.06

I do think these relationships have unique characteristics not found in human relationships and I do think how they are formed does inform the relationship.

However it does seem to me that the variables are so vast it is almost impossible to say what is correct for anyone individual relationship outside of the specific context of those involved and their systems of perception/interaction.

I'm hesitant to accept Ember's 'we're all just people' theory entirely because some of these relationships are not with defined Persons or personalities. Again I'm drawn to not wishing to reduce what is an extremely complex interaction into a tidy bundle.

Projecting 'peopleness' via anthropomorphizing certain Agents can be a useful tool for establishing comfort and discourse and to some extent it is how we have been trained to interact with our realities. However, however, the assumption that the qualities we are ascribing to any given Agent outside of our perceptions of them can be a a dangerous misperception. there is a place for accepting responsibility for the definition is on our part and therefore subject to incorrect parameters.

On a small scale I'd give the example of studying the lore, doing the interaction, and thinking you've got a good handle on what/who/how a certain Agent is. The problem may arise when the Agent acts contrary to this perception either with you or with another somehow feeling mislead rather than seeing it for the Agent possessing greater complexity than you originally ascribed.

How is this different than with people -human- people? I would suggest that many Agents by their very nature incorporate some Unknowable aspects. These would be levels of being-ness incomprehensible to the finite filters of our senses.

So to be clear, I think the treating them like People approach is what we have to work with in many cases but it behooves us to remember in doing so that many of Them are not limited to our perceptions and rules of Peopleness.

08:27 / 16.11.06

I'm hesitant to accept Ember's 'we're all just people' theory entirely because some of these relationships are not with defined Persons or personalities. Again I'm drawn to not wishing to reduce what is an extremely complex interaction into a tidy bundle.

Hrm, you may be assuming I mean something considerably narrower by "people" than I actually do.

--Ember--

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

18:22 / 16.11.06

I don't think the gods/guides/allies/ancestors categories are what define who chooses who.

yeah, I felt that was a little oversimplified as I was writing it, and I almost didn't. but then again it didn't really seem wrong either. guess I'll need to think about it some more.

18:28 / 20.11.06

When a person's 'owner' shows up, They might make Themselves known in a number of different ways. Some people are dimly aware of their deity throughout their lives, and may be unsurprised when Ze finally puts in an appearance. Some people are gently courted over a period of time; some are claimed and set to work almost overnight. Some people may welcome their patron with open arms, others might go kicking and screaming. It varies. Some Gods are easier to accept than others.

Mordant in the African traditions, as i understand people tend to exhibit the personality characteristics of the entity which owns them. is it the same in other traditions?

18:47 / 20.11.06

I know that's directed at Mordant, but I'll answer it as well.

Yes, for the most part. But it has been pointed out that if a person is extreme and out-of-balance in their personality, they may actually find themselves working for somebody who balances them, rather than somebody who resembles them.

Then, also, the traits we share with our patrons tend to be emphasized by the work, so I am much more obviously Freya's now than perhaps I was before I found Her.

--Ember--

20:17 / 21.11.06

I know that's directed at Mordant, but I'll answer it as well.

Yes, for the most part. But it has been pointed out that if a person is extreme and out-of-balance in their personality, they may actually find themselves working for somebody who balances them, rather than somebody who resembles them.

Then, also, the traits we share with our patrons tend to be emphasized by the work, so I am much more obviously Freya's now than perhaps I was before I found Her.

--Ember--

so the same or opposite. that makes sense to me.

03:15 / 22.11.06

Yeah, I guess if you're in a context where Patrons apply in the first place. Which is it's own can of worms, eh?

I mean, I seem to attract a handful of interlocking categories of archetypes: Fertility, Death, Magic, Tricksters. (Which is to say, multiple deities in each category, as opposed to ALL deities from each category. Individual personality definitely matters.) But it's obvious to me which is primary, and why, because the others all end up relating to me relative to the divine mystery of Love (by which I do not mean Romance).

I am told this is obvious about me, and thus I fall into the category of reflecting my primary Patrons (Freya and Freyr). But how much of that is true because of what I have learned from working with Them?

--Ember--

17:24 / 23.11.06

yes these are interesting comments. of course by opposite i mean the polar opposite of
whatever personality cluster were talking about.

I mean, I seem to attract a handful of interlocking categories of archetypes: Fertility, Death, Magic, Tricksters. (Which is to say, multiple deities in each category, as opposed to ALL deities from each category. Individual personality definitely matters.) But it's obvious to me which is primary, and why, because the others all end up relating to me relative to the divine mystery of Love (by which I do not mean Romance).

So your primary one provides a filter through which you understand and interact with the other ones?

18:25 / 23.11.06

So your primary one provides a filter through which you understand and interact with the other ones?

That does seem to be the case, yes. But I sort of attribute that to my own nature, rather than the nature of having a patron deity, you know?

--Ember--

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:20 / 19.01.07

Oops, never got back to this question, although EmberLeo has covered most of it:

Mordant in the African traditions, as i understand people tend to exhibit the personality characteristics of the entity which owns them. is it the same in other traditions?

Not always, no, at least not at first. What I think (based on very little but my own personal intuition and what others have suggested) is that a Being might make contact because you need a bit more of what They've got in your life, a complementary balance rather than an amplified version of what's already there. In time the individual might well become more like their patron.

In my trad, the important thing is to strive to emulate your particular friend amongst the Gods, bringing their Mysteries into the world through your actions. In my case, I really do not see myself as being very like my Patron at all (to the extent where I frequently wonder if He got job numbers mixed up; maybe some fire-juggling, practical-joke-playing, rule-breaking wild-child is even now struggling to understand how he ended up claimed by some goodnatured hearth Goddess and refusing to learn how to bake, but I digress). My task is to balance my nature with His, and find healthy ways of expressing His mysteries in my life. Since I'm not big on the trickster-figure role, that means I'm looking more at the world-walking and mystical aspects of Lokean lore.