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Modern Day Neanderthal?

 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
17:48 / 09.11.06
From The New York Times:
Neanderthals in Gene Pool, Study Suggests
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Scientists have found new genetic evidence that they say may answer the longstanding question of whether modern humans and Neanderthals interbred when they co-existed thousands of years ago. The answer is: probably yes, though not often.
In research being published online this week by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the scientists reported that matings between Neanderthals and modern humans presumably accounted for the presence of a variant of the gene that regulates brain size.
Bruce T. Lahn of the University of Chicago, the report’s senior author, said the findings demonstrated that such interbreeding with relative species, those on the brink of extinction, contributed to the evolutionary success of modern humans.
Other researchers in evolutionary biology said the new study offered strong support for the long-disputed idea that archaic species like Neanderthals contributed to the modern human gene pool.
Two other reports of DNA studies of possible mixing of human and related genes are expected to be published in the next few weeks.
Both genetic and fossil studies show that anatomically modern humans emerged 200,000 years ago in Africa and migrated into Europe 40,000 years ago. In about 10,000 years, Europe’s longtime inhabitants, Neanderthals, became extinct. The mainstream interpretation is that modern humans somehow replaced them without interbreeding.
In previous research, Dr. Lahn and associates discovered that a gene for brain size called microcephalin underwent a significant change 37,000 years ago. Its modified variant, or allele, appeared to confer a fitness advantage on those who possessed it. It is now present in about 70 percent of the world’s population.
The new research focused on the two classes of alleles of the brain gene. One appeared to have emerged 1.1 million years ago in an archaic Homo lineage that led to Neanderthals and was separate from the immediate predecessors of modern humans. The 37,000-year date for the other variant immediately suggested a connection with Neanderthals.
Dr. Lahn said it did not necessarily show that interbreeding was widespread. It could have been a rare, perhaps even single, event.

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HM! So what do you all think of this?
Personally I think it’s damn exciting.
Even if this were the case, have our genes mixed so much to completely obliterate all traces of what might have been Neanderthal?
I know Neanderthals get a bad rap about being the dumb cavemen, even though most archaeologically evidence suggests against it, how do you think we will respond to this new information?
If studies were to prove conclusive that Neanderthal DNA made its way into Homo sapiens, what do you think the impact would be of those who might possibly be part Neanderthal?
Coincidently we were covering Neanderthals in one of my anthropology classes and my professor showed us a comparison of a Neanderthal to a modern-day Frenchman and the similarities were kind of eerie.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
10:33 / 10.11.06
Well, there's this theory, which i don't think i agree with, but which i think is definitely interesting...

(some debate about it here)

Then there's this case, which is... well, kinda scary, if true (and it seems to be better documented than most of the wild fortean/cryptozoological/fringe-science claims which come out of the former USSR)...

probably more thoughts later...
 
 
COG
10:47 / 10.11.06
Your professor sounds like an idiot. Even if the supposed interbreeding was only a single instance, Europeans have been so mixed and displaced in the thousands of years since, that trying to peg a single nation as more Neanderthal is just a cheap joke to my ears.
 
 
grant
13:28 / 10.11.06
Actually, there was a story recently out of the British press -- let me see if I can find it....

Here. 9,000 years, and his family's moved 1/2 a mile.

More on Cheddar Man over yonder, at wikipedia.

It should be emphatically noted that this is less than 1/3 the age of most Neanderthal remains.

By the way, this World Science.net story says this:

Re­search pub­lished in last Ju­ly’s is­sue of the re­search jour­nal PLoS Ge­net­ics found that mod­ern Eu­ro­pe­ans are at least 5 per­cent Ne­an­der­thal. But a study us­ing dif­fer­ent meth­ods that ap­peared in the De­cem­ber 2004 is­sue of PLoS Bi­ol­o­gy, a re­lat­ed jour­nal, con­clud­ed that genes re­veal ev­i­dence for lit­tle or no in­ter­breed­ing.

The earlier of these studies com­pared mo­dern hu­man DNA to a spe­ci­fic type of Ne­an­der­thal DNA found in fos­sils. The la­ter stu­dy ex­p­loi­ted the fact that if two po­pu­la­tions with dif­fer­ent fre­quen­cies of cer­tain genes mix, their des­cen­dants will have some com­bi­na­tions of those genes more or less often than the un­mixed po­pu­la­tions.

There are some possible rea­sons for the dis­c­re­pan­cies in the findings, Vin­cent Plag­nol of the Uni­ver­si­ty of South­ern Cal­i­for­nia, au­thor of the lat­er stu­dy, wrote in an e­mail. A fi­nal an­s­wer, he ad­ded, may not come until re­search­ers com­p­lete a re­con­struc­tion of the Ne­an­der­thal ge­nome; that proj­ect is in the works and should be done “any­time now.”
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
19:47 / 10.11.06
That first case for Autism coming from Neanderthals is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. The author wants to point out that most of the problems someone has with their self or society (obesity, ADHD, masochism, lack of language, the list goes on.) I could not trust any of his remarks after reading most of the character traits that were attributed to Neanderthal, this one in particular

Many primate species regard direct eye contact as a threat. The same thing seems to be happening in autistic children.

Um, yeah so too in many human societies...

Basically this guy seems to think that Neanderthals are closer to apes than humans, which I'd say is a mistake.
He makes some okay points but all together I think he is trying way to hard to attribute many of these autistic attributes to Neanderthal.

Your professor sounds like an idiot. Even if the supposed interbreeding was only a single instance, Europeans have been so mixed and displaced in the thousands of years since, that trying to peg a single nation as more Neanderthal is just a cheap joke to my ears.

Well, no she wasn't trying to "pin down" a single nation. She was merely making the point that we shouldn't completely disregard a possibility of Neanderthal DNA mixed with Human DNA. Also, she also presented it in a method more like “hey this is interesting what if eh?”

I suppose we’ll get our final answer with the Neanderthal Genome Project.
 
 
COG
20:55 / 10.11.06
Re: Cheddar man. It would be surprising if no descendants of the Cheddar man family group had remained in roughly the same location, even over thousands of years. If you only look half a mile away for descendants, then you will only find them half a mile away. What they don't mention is the tens of thousands (or more) of descendants who live everywhere else in Europe and America, who also carry this same mitochondrial DNA type.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
10:07 / 16.11.06
BBC news story

At their peak, Neanderthals dominated a wide range - stretching from Britain and Iberia in the west, to Israel in the south and Uzbekistan in the east.

For some reason it strikes me that this was roughly congruent with the maximum expansion of the Roman empire. Probably doesn't mean anything other than natural geographical barriers tho - it would be interesting tho to see whether the Neanderthals had anything that could be described as politics, economics or organised civilization...
 
 
grant
16:24 / 16.11.06
You mean besides the technological marvels of ATLANTIS!!!

Actually, there is this odd thing that became the basis for the latest Colin Wilson book.

Bear with me...

It's this thing called the La Quina disk, a big stone circle dug up with a bunch of other odd little tools in a Neanderthal settlement in France.

Apparently some folks think it was a kind of ruler for measuring out the megalithic yard, which is a unit of measurement that appears to be shared by a bunch of stone circle sites. It's 2 feet 8.64 inches (82.966 cm).

You'll notice that the "megalithic yard" article in wikipedia is in the "pseudoscience" category -- because the measurements (the surveys of the megaliths) are inexact (what with stones shifting and being less-than ruler straight and all), which makes the theory hard to test.

Anyway, the disc seems to measure out a megalithic yard. It might not. I don't know.

There's also a way to measure out your own megalithic yard using a stick, some string and the sun, which may indicate that the disc from La Quina was part of some astronomical apparatus (that is, a stone version of a stick and some string, circumscribed by the path the earth travels around the sun).

Or, you know, Colin Wilson might have been blowing some smoke to make a better yarn. He's been known to do that.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
19:34 / 05.12.06
This is... interesting, tho i'd like to know the author's agenda (pun intended)...
 
 
grant
19:53 / 05.12.06
I have a strong suspicion that headline was written to sell magazines -- the actual study part is about gender-based division of labor, yes, but more about how the advent of agriculture can be marked by gender-based division of labor, thus is more about farming vs. hunting than manly men hunting while women plant their melons.

Although reading those quotes, I'm not quite so sure. There's definitely some kind of elision going on between agriculture and women's work, though.
 
  
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