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Underground > Comic Books >

Relax, everyone! Comics aren't literature!

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23:44 / 26.11.06

Harold Bloom.

No, wait, seriously, can anyone argue that there aren't people out there who think that a comic winning The National Book Award, or a film, painting, or political structure being utilized in an English Dept. classroom does not earn concern for the sanctity of the word from some folks?

The broad trend is in one direction, yes, but there's always some uptight paranoids, and they often hold potent standing.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:59 / 26.11.06

I'm afraid I missed what Harold Bloom said about comic books winning literary awards, DD. Could you tell me? In general, I think the literary establishment is largely indifferent to comic books...

00:47 / 27.11.06

Doesn't all of this depend on the definition of literature? Because I'm pretty sure the author of that Wired column has no idea what it means. He uses the term interchangeably with "fiction" and "novel." He also gives absolutely no reasons for his opinions, which he states as facts, other than the fact that he's put his metaphorical Andy Rooney shirt on (the Andy Rooney shirt actually explains that guy's entire article actually, as he may as well have been wearing a metaphorical "I'm an idiot" shirt).

Literature, as somebody said earlier in this thread, is not a particular medium or genre, but more of a status level certain works can achieve if they're of a high enough quality. I always thought of it as almost synonymous with the word "art," but applied to written stories (can non-fiction be literature?). In most book stores I go to, actually, they have entirely separate sections for "literature" and "fiction."

The term art existed before movies, but there are quite a few movies that are considered art. Literature existed before comic books (the kind we have today anyways), so there's no reason a comic should be denied the title of literature if it reaches a high enough artistic state to justify it.

But I'm just repeating stuff that's already been talked out years ago. The real question is why aren't we all making money writing Wired columns, since they'll obviously let anybody with half an opinion on anything do it?

00:49 / 27.11.06

hmmmm, that came out a bit more outraged than I meant it to, lol.

00:54 / 27.11.06

Actually, Harold Bloom addresses comics being treated as 'literature' at least a few times, and definitely in 'The Elegiac Conclusion' I believe is the title, and I'm too far away from my copy to go checking just right now. He's as down on that as he is 'Chicano Studies' or feminists. This is the same guy who announced that Shakespeare probably invented the human being (not mapped, mind, but invented) and that slam poetry is the death of art. Dramatics are not implausible or to never be expected.

And, really, the very article that spawned this topic, demonstrates that there's a living strain of distaste or distrust of comics coming into that particular spotlight. The 'Wired' piece doesn't even try to pretty things up when it comes to comics being inherently less worthy or easier to write, less well-written than a novel. That sort of smug assertion, when it is felt that it needs to be put forth, kinda leads one to presume that somebody (a) sees comics coming up on said territory, (b) they don't like it, and (c) they, by engendering commentary and consideration, are taking an active stance on the concern. Writing an article is activism. Since that activism has a particular stance, that is, that comics are not good enough and don't belong anyway, the author's activism has to be presumed their own personal stance.

Of course, I'm just as reactionary in other directions, so it's not that I'm laying these people or their opinions out as entirely unnecessary, wrong, or insidiously evil... just that they're there. Can't see how anybody argues that they aren't, especially anyone who's been near a university English Dept. lately, and seen some of the ground that's being held onto, versus the new ground that's being covered or recovered. Many college English/Writing Profs view Carver as contemporary and cutting edge, whether we - or the world at large - happen to.

ONLY NICE THINGS

01:07 / 27.11.06

But the Elegiac Conclusion is not about comic books specifically, but about the use of non-canonical works in English studies - that is, neophilic elements among those people who you feel think of Carver as cutting-edge. It may mention comic books, but it's hardly terrified of them...

20:04 / 28.11.06

you have to wonder if bloom's read geoff klock's 'how to read superhero comics and why', which consists of a 200-page love-letter to bloomian theory, albeit applied to comics.

to read some of the posts above, you'd develop images of bloom reading klock in horror, wondering what he'd created, running around arranging book burnings. i don't think he's quite as extreme as all that, though he's clearly never going to write extensively on OMAC.

20:33 / 28.11.06

incidentally, be careful with your characterisation of university english faculties.

the apparent perception of academic opinion on comics and actual opinion as i've experienced it are miles out of step. i spend six days a week working and teaching in a notoriously conservative english faculty; my doctoral thesis is on comics. i've arguably received more and more serious attention from senior academics that my peers in more established areas, precisely because i'm doing something new. i regularly receive requests for assistance on books from professorial-level academics in areas as diverse as old norse and milton studies; the forthcoming oxford edition of the complete works of milton and the associated exhibition in the ashmoleon'll incorporate material on comics, and serious academic publishers express interest in publishing on comics. funding is as easy or hard to obtain for comics-related work as for anything else.

i think the anti-comics bias within the literary establishment lies more within the journalistic critical strand. academics tend to avoid expressing opinions they can't back up with swathes of reasoning and paper; journalists can talk any old bollocks they like and get away with it...

21:37 / 28.11.06

I ought to apologize. The closest I'll actually come is to reiterate that the Bloom comment was not entirely serious, though I do feel he's more than a bit neophobic and cloistered, as are an uncomfortable number of English faculty. Not all are, however, nor even most.

21:38 / 28.11.06

And electronic device direction packets don't really need expensive literary awards. Even if it pisses somebody off who I feel might need the kick while they're down.

02:39 / 29.11.06

sorry, i'm perhaps a little twitchy about this; it's certainly fair to say that there're certainly a lot of traditionalists about in academia, and bloom's a classic example. but his generation're really on their way out, and the incoming Great And Good academic top brass are really pretty broad-minded. there are still conservative wankshafts around, but i think we could perhaps be a little less conservative and predictable ourselves when it comes to looking for such tedious old gits; they leather elbow-patch is thankfully fading into academic history, but i detect more than a whiff of it in publishing and journalism circles; this may be rampant NIMBYism on my behalf, but since the literary prizes that inspired the thread tend to be voted on by panels of journos and publishers...

(that said, comics academia itself's already developed a conservative, tedious edge. it's starting to piss me off that every single call for conference papers mentions Maus, and not much else. you'd think no-one'd written anything in 20 years. i'll float a thread on this'un soon.)

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