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Borat

  
  

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TeN
05:27 / 06.11.06
I'm amazed that there hasn't been a single thread on this film yet, or even on Cohen or Ali G.

For those of you who don't know, Borat Sagdiyev is a character created by British comedian Sacha Baron Cohen and popularized through his show Da Ali G Show. Borat is an anti-semetic, mysogynistic Kazakh reporter. The segments of the show featuring Borat show him interacting with unsuspecting real people who are unaware that he is a fictional character and believe him to be an actual Kazakh reporter (to make this more believable, Cohen goes days without bathing and wears unwashed clothes when filming the Borat segments). Oftentimes the people he interacts with prove to be highly racist, anti-semetic, sexist, and/or jingoistic (example 1, example 2). Other times they are merely complacent with and/or taken aback by Borat's own racism, anti-semitism, etc. (example)

On November 3rd, the feature length film Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan, chronicalling Borat's journey to America to learn what makes it the "greatest nation on Earth" and his subsequent obsession with and desire to marry Pamela Anderson, was released in theatres. It was met with rave reviews. (I saw the film on the 4th, and can honestly say that it ranks among the funniest things I've ever seen. Sheer comedic genius, imo.)

But the film already had a good deal of publicity before ever being released. In 2005, after an appearance in character on the MTV European Music Awards, the Foreign Ministry of Kazakhstan condemned Cohen in a press conference and threatend legal action. Cohen responded in character. The Kazakh government responded by taking out a 4-page advertisement in the New York Times refuting the absurd claims Borat had made about the country. They followed this up by suspending the domain name www.borat.kz, an action that even caught the attention of Reporters Without Borders. Other controversies reported in the media include a botched rendition of the National Anthem at a baseball game, an appearance at the White House to invite "Supreme Warlord Premier George Walter Bush" to the screening of the film, and complaints from the Anti-Defamation League and the EZAF.

The character raises a number of important questions:
- Is Cohen's tactic of using unsuspecting "victims" ethical? It's certainly innovative - combining documentary and mockumentary in a kind of almost voyeuristic humor, relying on the clever blending of reality with fiction, that has its roots in everything from Candid Camera to Spinal Tap to The Blair Witch Project to Punk'd to The Daily Show - and its certainly funny, but let us weigh its comedic value against its real world consequences. On one hand, Borat's "victims" are ridiculed on international television. One such person claims that she even lost her job due to her appearance on the show. On the other hand, it could be said that Borat's victims "bring it on themselves" - many of the people on the show openly reveal their own ignorance and bigotry. This has even had politcal consequences: James Broadwater, a Republican candidate for U.S. Congress in Mississippi, was quoted on Da Ali G show as saying that all Jews will go to hell. In the ensuing outcry, Broadwater denounced the show, but did not apologize, instead saying "the liberal, anti-God media needs to be brought under the strict control of the FCC, and that as soon as possible."
- Does Borat promote bigotry? The show and the film offend essentially everyone. Perhaps the Kazakh government was correct in denouncing Cohen - the character does reinforce a negative stereotype of Eastern European countries. There's also the possibility that people don't quite get the joke - that Borat's antisemitism is laughed at not because it is so backward, but because the audience interprets it as genuine. Also consider, however, that Cohen himself is Jewish. In fact, most of the "Kazakh" spoken in the film is in fact a hodgepodge of Hebrew and Yiddish, with some mangled Slavic phrases thrown in, spoken in a Russian accent.

There's much more to be discussed, but I'll leave it up to you.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:16 / 06.11.06
I find myself sort of troubled by the whole Borat thing. I went to see the film after hearing about the rave reviews that you spoke of above and I have to say that I was not impressed. There were some very smart and interesting bits where Borat wanders into a territory naively only for people around him to say some truly terrible things and they're illuminating, entertaining and very cool. But then - almost as if he doesn't have faith in these parts of the narrative - he just stacks the rest of it with poo and testicle jokes and gross-out humour which I really find an enormous turn-off. Which is probably the general problem I have with him - that he's clearly smart and able to produce eye-watering and brilliant comedy, but that he regularly turns towards the cheapest and crassest of cheap and crass humour - either in some misguided attempt to 'keep the proles happy' or something or because he genuinely has very little class. I would not recommend the film to other people, I'm afraid, and I know that makes me in the minority.
 
 
bonzoid
08:43 / 06.11.06
I am afraid I agree with both Tom and TeN. I saw this film on Saturday night. The cinema was full, which is how I like to see comedy. Being acquainted with the character Borat already, the first 30 minutes of the film did not really make me laugh. I had seen his "thing" before and was a little tired of it. I DID however laugh very hard at the kick in the pants Borat gives America. As a pre-election day treat, I enjoyed seeing ignorance and simplicity, not of Borat, but of the American public exposed and laughed at. I am an american ex-pat of 20 years and am still scratching my head in wonder as to What happened to America? The scene of Borat's conversion and speaking in tongues was fantastic.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
09:29 / 06.11.06
There were walk-outs in our screening - I counted six. All around moments of anti-semitism, which seemed odd as these people probably knew enough about the thing to know that cohen was jewish.

the film itself left me coid. I laughed during it, but in a very hollow way, and couldn't think of anything that I found truly funny afterwards, with the possible exception of the "Jews doing 9/11" thing which made me laugh and is still making me laugh - actually that and the national anthem thing with people cheering for GWB to drink "the blood of every man, women and child in Iraq". So, better than ali g in da house then.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:40 / 06.11.06
Tom's description of the movie sounds kind of like what I'm expecting- I really like the idea of a Jewish guy going round undercover and getting people to expose themselves as anti-Semites, (kind of like Chris Morris getting Clare Rayner to say she'd beat him off if he attacked her, but with a social conscience) but the actual comedy Borat bits I'm not looking forward to so much. It's kind of a quandary, because the comedy "wow! Kazakhstan's such a crazy place!" bollocks is kind of necessary for the other stuff to work, but... from what I've seen of Borat on TV, it's also the least funny.

I remember reading that it wasn't an attempt to mock Kazakhstan, and that he's chosen the country precisely because the majority of people know nothing about the place... of course, by doing it he's changed that, hence the whole furore.

I also *vaguely* remember reading somewhere that Cohen is quite an active anti-racism campaigner- anyone know anything about this?
 
 
bonzoid
20:19 / 06.11.06
During the nude wrestling scene (in the showing I attended, VUE Islington) about 7 teenage asian males got upset and marched out shouting and making a lot of noise. I was not sure what that was all about.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:27 / 07.11.06
I don't usually laugh much in cinemas, but within 10 minutes, in a fairly (luckily) crowded kino at around 3pm on Friday, I was really letting go with the yuks.

Actually I found the 2nd act, when Borat's friendly naivety clashes with New York wariness, one of the funniest ~ the guy sprinting away from Borat's handshake in a panic, and the other one telling him grimly, with the seriousness of a business deal, that if he tries it again, he'll get his head knocked in.

There were many clever and incredibly ballsy moments ~ standout is perhaps the rodeo gig, with Borat bigging up the war of terror and the boys in Iraq, before taking that patriotic spirit and reflecting it back at them in even more barbaric form (hoping Bush will drink the blood of every man, woman and child). The frat boys in the RV were also horribly revealing, spooling out their own rope and hanging themselves while Borat barely needed to prompt them.

The parts that left me a lot colder were the more obviously set-up sequences. The prostitute didn't feel real, and that storyline was a bit clunky, false. The Pamela Anderson payoff was also a little Benny Hill at the end, and it really needed to feel genuine for this finale to work.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
10:40 / 07.11.06
I think the movie's pretty genius, but I also think that Cohen manages to sabotage his own creation. I thought literalizing his home village was a dumb move since suddenly we aren't laughing at our assumption that Kazakhstan is a dump but we're actually laughing at hillbilly jokes that were musty when Li'l Abner made them.

I also thought shooting mostly in the South was pandering of the worst order. Hey everyone! The South is full of bigots! Now that's an original notion. I've NEVER heard that before.

And I thought he gave black people a free pass. Like a lot of folks, he seems to think that African-Americans represent some kind of authenticity that's missing from Anglos and I thought he got weak in the knees whenever black people were onscreen.

But there were parts - the rodeo, the dinner party, the nude wrestling - that were real genius.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:18 / 07.11.06
And I thought he gave black people a free pass. Like a lot of folks, he seems to think that African-Americans represent some kind of authenticity that's missing from Anglos and I thought he got weak in the knees whenever black people were onscreen.

I thought the scene where he tries to take lessons in fashion and street slang from the African-American group of men was mostly a parody of some white people's tendency to idealise, copy and appropriate aspects of that culture's behaviour ~ in fact, the whole Ali G "wigga" schtick.

Maybe there was a particular focus in Borat's project on anti-Semitism precisely because Cohen is Jewish ~ maybe identifying and parodying certain Black attitudes or beliefs would have been too much of a stretch for him. Too risky, even (his Jewishness has provided an explanation and justification ~ or get-out clause ~ for the anti-Semitic gags, in many of the reviews I've read) or just not something he felt he could pinpoint. Or maybe he felt Ali G had already parodied African-American culture.

Even watching a couple of TV interviews with Borat recently, I think he's wearing it thin. The problem with Ali G for me was mainly over-saturation. Borat doesn't work nearly so well when he's wheeling out the same routine on a chat show. The other main problem for me with Ali G (in terms of him remaining funny, I mean, rather than any broader political doubts) was the expansion of Ali G's home town of Staines. When he kept referring to the exploits and mishaps of his girlfriend and mates, creating a cartoonish fictional world, his comedy became far too conventional ~ inward-looking, rather than reacting to and improvising against the outside world.
 
 
Quantum
14:22 / 07.11.06
I just assumed this film would be crap. I'm amazed how much attention it's getting, isn't it just Ali G again but slavic? The good bits will be sub-Chris Morris, not-quite Louis Theroux, the bad bits will be poo and wee jokes with some nob gags for finesse. Is it alright to provoke anti-semitism from people if you're Jewish then? I must have missed that memo, and I share the concerns expressed already that the audience might sometimes be laughing at the stoopid yanks (nothing new) and sometimes at the mockery of Kazhakstan and eastern europeans generally. Laughing at the stoopid Kazhaks, not so acceptable.
 
 
ghadis
14:23 / 07.11.06
Have you seen the film yet Quantum?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:02 / 07.11.06
Is it alright to provoke anti-semitism from people if you're Jewish then?

I think the understanding is that he's exposing anti-semitism, not prompting it where it doesn't already exist. Whether it makes a difference that he's Jewish, I wouldn't want to decide personally, but I've read maybe 10-12 reviews where that fact is mentioned as though it's very pertinent.
 
 
Tom Coates
22:48 / 07.11.06
I think a point made various times is that there's an element of ambiguity about whether or not he's satirising anti-semitism / homophobia while at the same time providing a vehicle for anti-semites and homophobes to laugh at a different and perhaps less overt, conscious or reasonable level. I certainly find this stuff troubling, even as I find many of those jokes actually among the better stuff he's produced.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:39 / 08.11.06
satirising anti-semitism / homophobia while at the same time providing a vehicle for anti-semites and homophobes to laugh at a different and perhaps less overt, conscious or reasonable level.

That's an argument that's been ongoing since Alf Garnett at least ~ having a bigoted character whose prejudices are so exaggerated the writers expect you to laugh at them, exposing the absurdity of people who hold those attitudes, means inevitably that some other people might just celebrate him "straight", either reading it deliberately against the intended grain or just not understanding that it was meant to be a satire in the first place.
 
 
TeN
03:17 / 09.11.06
that same part of Tom's post that you just quoted reminded me of the thread we'd had about war films. I think the same could apply in this case - is it possible to make an anti-bigotry film that can't be viewed conversely as pro-bigotry?
perhaps this deserves it's own thread (if anyone wants to start it) - American History X comes to mind as an example of the phenomenon
 
 
CameronStewart
18:02 / 10.11.06
The drunken frat boys are suing 20th C. Fox, claiming that they were duped (obviously) and their appearance in the film has caused them emotional stress and loss of reputation (though judging from their appearance in the film, how much of a good reputation they had previously is questionable).

I've heard a couple of stories about the aftermath of the movie - the producer who booked Borat to appear on the daytime news broadcast apparently went into a depression and lost her job, and one of the hotel managers apparently suffered career repercussions as well.

Is Cohen being reckless? I think the movie is one of the funniest I've ever seen but it made me a little sad when I hear about the consequences it might have for some of these people (not all of them, though - many of them I have little sympathy for)...
 
 
TeN
19:11 / 10.11.06
I brought up the news producer in my first post, but I'm surprised to see the "frat boys" are suing
I think one way to look at it is to feel sorry for these people, but at the same time, it's sort of a litmus test - the frat boys simply acted like themselves, and it got them into trouble; the bigots and jingoists in the film do the same thing; the producer, although I do have some sympathy for her, wouldn't be in the position she was in had she checked her sources (that's a whole 'nother can of worms)... meanwhile, other people in the film who were duped into believing Borat suffered no ill consequences (besides embarressment) because they had nothing to hide
I'm not saying Cohen is completely "moral" in his actions, just presenting one possible view
 
 
PatrickMM
19:22 / 10.11.06
In the case of the producer, I believe the Borat team set up a whole fake organization, etc. to make her believe this was a legitimate journalist. Now, a quick google search would have revealed otherwise, but it's not like she didn't investigate at all.
 
 
Quantum
19:22 / 10.11.06
Have you seen the film yet Quantum? Armed with Madness

Nope, although I'll probably see it on video for cheap when it's released, for the naked wrestling and other apparently really funny bits. I just read an interview with Borat in the local rag though, haha, the funny rape, murder and prostitution gags really changed my view of the character. Haha.
 
 
Quantum
19:30 / 10.11.06
Here's some Borat gags. I don't feel an urge to rush out and see the movie.

* You think maybe Blair is a man who take off his clothes and let his khram go hard and put in a man’s bottom?
—Interviewing a protester

* Can you do a dirt in there?
—Pointing to a urinal

* And Gypsies, can they play or is best to keep them away?
—Questioning a bowls club manager.

* She must be tight, like a man’s anus.
—Detailing his requirements for his ideal partner.

* But if she cheat on me, I will crush her!
—Speaking with Jenny Noel from Great Expectations Dating Agency

Haha.
 
 
ghadis
23:17 / 10.11.06
Yea!! Great stuff!!

Lets have an out of context Party!!!

Because (of course we haven’t seen the film yet!..but we all have huge opinions on it anyway). It is worth talking about and i'm sure we can have a great talk when we've seen it.

But Hooray!! ( Chris Morris is cool because he can fuck with Darcus Howe and call him a a coco whatever because CM is cool) and 'of course he can get away with that' because we all love and respect Chris Morris, right?
 
 
Quantum
23:33 / 10.11.06
Hey, I'm not claiming expertise- just why I didn't rush out to see Borat. I'm sure it's hilarious, and will change my mind. After all, I loved Team America and I'm sure the quotes and writeup for that were appalling.
So the context makes it alright? I'll take your word for it and refrain from further comment until I've seen it.
 
 
ghadis
23:58 / 10.11.06
Well, i've seen it a couple of times now and i'm really not sure how i feel about it. The first time i watched i was laughing my arse off but still finding a lot of it troublesome. The second time i watched i was actually quite nervous and worried about seeing it again. It was in a full cinema and because i'd seen it before i was kind of expecting people to walk out and getting a bit stressed about it. And yes, people did walk out. It is a hugely offensive film. The idea that this film is doing so well in multiplexi cinemas is weird. It really is. But i kind of think it is a pretty good film despite a lot of shit crappy, lame stuff that is tucked in with it. Really, the anthem singing at the stampede is so fucking gutsy i'm willing to forgive a lot.
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
02:52 / 11.11.06
Well, despite the weird Tom stamp, I'm willing to give it more than what it receives...

I was initially puzzled by a critique was done by a friend beforehand saying it didn't amount to much. I thought it amounted to much!

Laughed. And laughed. And my friends laughed with me. And does it make one a horrible person? Was the anti-semitism pervasive? I think not although the anti-semitism certainly was there. Did the movie change me? no. Is the challenge necessary? I think so, since people walk out of it and I missed the beginning of the naked wrestling thing due to a small bladder.

Er. What's the point again?
 
 
Tom Coates
09:08 / 11.11.06
I'm definitely completely unthrilled by the thing, and the more I think about it after the fact the less well it sits in my head. I'm probably going to write a post about it at some point.
 
 
PatrickMM
23:16 / 13.11.06
I thought it was consistently hilarious, but I think it's something that's not going to change anyone's point of view. If you're an anti-semitic American, you might think some of his behavior is odd, but I don't think you'll be forced to confront the absurdity of your own belief, any less than a New Yorker's going to say "Wow, maybe I should listen to crazy people on the subway." That said, I find it hard to believe that anti-semitism is still an issue. Clearly some people still hold that belief, but it just seems completely ridiculous.
 
 
ibis the being
01:08 / 17.11.06
I can't believe not only the level of hype this movie has gotten, but also the positive reviews it has gotten in the press. It has regularly been described as the "funniest movie of the decade" and "maybe the funniest movie ever" in newspaper and magazine reviews, and the Boston Globe gave it 4 out of 4 stars - compare that with The Departed's 3 out of 4 in the same paper. I know it's a bit of apples & oranges but I can't even imagine a world in which Borat is a better anything than The Departed. I found it to be not only not the funniest movie ever, of the decade, or of the year, but in fact not funny at all. I laughed half-heartedly a couple of times. To me it was basically Jackass humor in a different wrapper, not a style I find appealing or amusing.

I understand that the racism etc. in the film was all satirical, but I was extremely uncomfortable with what I felt was an unrelentingly misanthropic point of view on Cohen's part. I like to poke fun of bigotry as much as the next guy but to me Borat goes beyond any kind of meaningful critique into plain old meanness and contempt. I really have a problem with misanthropy passed off as social critique - it's lazy and unconstructive. To me the fact that the movie wasn't even funny is just the insult added to the injury.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:34 / 17.11.06
Personally I reckon Cohen is a Muslim-hating jew, and is actually attacking aspects of muslim culture with both his Ali G and Borat ‘suits’.

Ali G mocks British Pakistani youth for its adoption of ‘black’ street culture while Borat is basically a patronising riff that purports to present the generic Muslim man (the thick black hair and moustache and suit being a contemporary caricature in the tradition of the befezzed oriental which popped up in pulp fiction until the ‘60s). It’s an all out attack on what many people actually believe typical Asian Muslim behaviour to be.

So while there’s a notion that he’s highlighting other peoples bigotry – particularly conmcerning Jews – the real message is: Sacha Batron Cohen hates Muslims and thinks its fair to misrepresent aspects of Muslim culture for cheap laughs about shit, rape and homosexuality.

I’m kinda amazed at the reviews its received. I’ve got a feeing its bound up with the times – war on terror, multiculturalism, mass immigration – and that its been decided that if you don’t like Borat, you’ve no sense of humour, or, are potentially a lefty PC-minded twat or worse, a fuckin terrorist.

And lets reduce the ignorance while we’re at it: get an atlas or don’t listen to the commentators – Khazakstan is not Eastern Europe. Go look where it actually is. (I blame UEFA myself)
 
 
Spaniel
10:40 / 17.11.06
Wasn't Ali G attacking Wiggas? I mean, I'm not sure Staines is known for its Asian population. Quite the opposite in fact.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:53 / 17.11.06
Staines has a huge asian population. I used to live next door to it. I think the problem with Ali G was that, in west london, the concept of 'wigganess' gets complexified because there are so many asian kids adopting/reappopriating elements of black/hip-hop culture and his racial ambiguity means that he's dangerously close to parodying them.
 
 
Spaniel
15:44 / 17.11.06
Ah, I stand corrected.

I'm not sure I buy your argument on one level, yawn, in that I'm not sure it's intentional, but you could well be onto something when it comes to Cohen's unconscious prejudices.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:32 / 21.11.06
you're being to kind to him!
 
 
Spaniel
11:48 / 21.11.06
I am. But then I am a terribly kind person.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:28 / 21.11.06
Yeah. My issue with Borat is that, at least among my peers, the people are laughing at a foreign person doing weird, shitty stuff, because foreigners are weird and shitty, aren't they? The whole "Ah, but he's actually making Americans who are the real racists look bad" is never the central point, it's always a justification- obviously not here on the 'lith, but then you'd expect that.

I don't think I've met anyone yet, irl, who came out of the film saying "Wow, isn't it shocking that these attiudes still persist in the country that's running the world right now, and probably all the way to the top" or thereabouts. Generally, it's "Haha he said: (insert racist joke here), and it was really funny!"

I think, Yawn, you may be on the money with this:

Personally I reckon Cohen is a Muslim-hating jew, and is actually attacking aspects of muslim culture with both his Ali G and Borat ‘suits’.

Ali G mocks British Pakistani youth for its adoption of ‘black’ street culture while Borat is basically a patronising riff that purports to present the generic Muslim man (the thick black hair and moustache and suit being a contemporary caricature in the tradition of the befezzed oriental which popped up in pulp fiction until the ‘60s). It’s an all out attack on what many people actually believe typical Asian Muslim behaviour to be.

But I'm not entirely sure he's "Muslim-hating", or at least if he is, I don't know whether it's intentional. When you say:

The real message is: Sacha Baron Cohen hates Muslims and thinks its fair to misrepresent aspects of Muslim culture for cheap laughs about shit, rape and homosexuality.

I'm not sure how any of us could know that without reading his mind. I agree that we're looking at a pretty serious stereotyping of how an Asian male might behave, and I'm glad you've pointed that out because I've not heard it raised enough, but I'm not sure whether we can assume concsious racism.

And then I found this.

Be understanding British laws

In Kazakhstan, man is being arrested for:

• Not paying correct amount of money (or livestock) to girlies after sexytimes.

• Not givings enough oxens to father of girlie he marry.

• Having sexytime with person who not actually a girlie.

In Britain, man is being arrested for:

• Having sex with girlies who too drunk say Yes or No.

• Putting hands on bottoms, boobies girlies without her giving permissions.

• Paying moneys to have sexytimes with girlies.

But if British man is having sexytimes with person who is not a girlie, he not arrested. On contrary, he given contract Channel 4 TV, seat in Parliaments and invitation go swimming with Michaels Barrymore.

Now you say: "Hangs on, matey! You telling us British girls only having sexytimes when wearing beer-goggles. Then you saying sexytimes with British girls illegal if they wearing beer-goggles. That crazy!"

I know! In Britain, you get arrested if making sexies with girlies. But if making sexies with mens, you get on TV, Big Brother, instant celebrities.

I should stress that this is by David Thomas and not SBC, but I think it tells you something about why most of the people who like Borat like Borat. I have to say, folks, that the obvious may be staring us in the face.
 
 
CameronStewart
12:46 / 21.11.06
>>>I should stress that this is by David Thomas and SBC,<<<

You mean "by David Thomas and not SBC"
 
  

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