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Pubic Hair - Bare or Bear?

 
  

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Glenn Close But No Cigar
14:36 / 01.11.06
Shaving / waxing etc. of pubic hair has, over the past few years, gone from being a practice largely confined to particular professional and sub-cultural groups (from strippers to 'Muscle Mary' gay men) to being embraced by the female AND male mainstream, at least in Anglophone countries.

I'm wondering why this might be? Is it to do with the broadening of access to pornography via the web? Is it to do with the grooming industry's need to colonise more and more areas of our bodies? Is it to do with surveillance / celebrity culture, and its related desire to expose the unexposed? Is there something very creepy about the practice (a desire to return to our childhood bodies, or to sexualise the bodies of children) or is it simply grown-up fun? Do its aesthetics and politics shift depending on the gender or sexuality of the genitally depilated? Can you see a future swing back towards Bush?

Perhaps this is rather a bold topic for a newcomer to Barbelith to introduce (and no, I'm not looking for 'lithers to overshare) but it seems like it might make for a rich discussion.
 
 
Mistoffelees
14:59 / 01.11.06
People these days pay far too much attention to their bodies. In a couple of years/decades, every human body will decompose or be ash, which makes this fixation on bodies look like renovating appartments in a burning building.

In Berlin, we actually have (had?) a barber for pubic hair. There might be other reasons for shaving it, but if it´s for aesthetic reasons, the itching and possibility of cutting are a high price for a fad, that most people around you won´t ever notice.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
15:11 / 01.11.06
I'm not sure whether the fact that one's (lack of) public hair won't get a wide audience is any reason not to groom it / shave it off / grow it out / whatever. Surely there's an argument that it's precisely because it's for a limited audience (if, indeed, it IS for a limited audience) that one pays attention to it... We don't stop writing love letters just 'cause they won't be broadcast on the nightly news.

But the Berlin Pubic Barbers sounds fascinating. Do you know anyone who's, ahem, popped in for a trim?
 
 
Princess
15:30 / 01.11.06
Green Pubes = Fun.
Nothing more complex than that for me. (Also, heart, there has been no rash. So hurrah!)
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
15:34 / 01.11.06
There's a character in the Julie Burchill novel 'Ambition' who has green pubes, and a tattoo on her thigh reading 'Please Keep off the Grass'.
 
 
Fist Fun
15:46 / 01.11.06
I was dead suprised when Mikey on Big Brother started talking about how de trims his bush. Never really occurred to me up to then. Mikey comes across as a pretty cool character so I gave it a go then.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:02 / 01.11.06
I have nothing against pubeshaving, but DUDE!!! You gave it a go because Mikey seemed fairly cool???

Fuck. If that piece of shit had made a bold claim that breathing was actually quite good, I reckon I'd have given up doing it.
 
 
Lama glama
16:04 / 01.11.06
%Mikey comes across as a pretty cool character so I gave it a go then. %

Suitable edit, Buk?
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:47 / 01.11.06
But the Berlin Pubic Barbers sounds fascinating. Do you know anyone who's, ahem, popped in for a trim?

No, I only know about it, because that guy made it into the newspaper a couple of times.

Here´s a link to a pube coiffeur and the styles he does, that one´s not in Berlin though.
 
 
lekvar
17:57 / 01.11.06
Related conversation
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
10:43 / 02.11.06
People these days pay far too much attention to their bodies. In a couple of years/decades, every human body will decompose or be ash, which makes this fixation on bodies look like renovating appartments in a burning building.

Very Gnostic, and very close to some of my own former views, but i think deserving of a (most likely Head Shop, tho possibly also Temple) thread of its own to discuss on a deeper level, cos IMO there are very many very intriguing implications (think feminism, objectification, gender identity, body/soul dualism, etc)...

I'd start one but my net time is a bit limited atm, so feel free to start one if you want to...

On a more Conversation/anecdotal level, i have a friend who told me her boyfriend shaved off her pubic hair (at his request), which i at the time thought slightly worrying and/or disturbing (context: she was 21, he about 28 IIRC, which isn't a *huge* age gap really, but she was from a pretty sheltered background with quite puritanical family ethics, which gave her a certain "innocent" vibe, and he was from a much more drink'n'drugs-oriented rave culture type background, and she, while having a pretty mature/voluptuous figure, had a very young-looking face (in a passport style shot she could have passed for about 16)... she had also lost her father to terrorism at the start of their relationship)... i'm pretty sure it actually *wasn't* like that, but it gave me some pretty uncomfortable thoughts at the time...

Personally i'm extremely uncomfortable looking at any image of hairless/shaven female* genitals, because for me body hair, and especially pubic hair = adulthood/sexual maturity, and hairless bodies, especially genitals = children, and thus the popularity of (particularly het-female, as i understand it) pubic shaving says pretty disturbing and nasty things about the way female sexuality is viewed in our culture(s)... infantilisation, percieved social/sexual role, power relationships, etc...

* as i'm not attracted to males, i don't really have any interest in images of male genitalia either shaven or unshaven - i think in principle my thoughts would be much the same tho, but possibly less uncomfortable because of the other factors, eg relative size, which more clearly indicate sexual maturity in males... potentially interesting topic [the contrast] tho...

* the phenomenon of male>female age gaps being normative in het relationships is also probably worthy of analysis...
 
 
Spaniel
11:37 / 02.11.06
People these days pay far too much attention to their bodies.

Er, just these days?

In a couple of years/decades, every human body will decompose or be ash, which makes this fixation on bodies look like renovating appartments in a burning building.

This is frankly weird and rather divorced from the day to day facts of life. Also, isn't the simile being employed rather heavy handed? By that rationale why do anything?
 
 
Sniv
12:21 / 02.11.06
Ra Jah, I think your last post was excellent, very considered and raised some interesting points. However, I do believe you're missing one very important reason for pube-shaving, which is the age-old problem of pubes on the tongue/in the teeth, and just the general feel of the things whilst giving head. I've been told to keep my bush short, because they tickle (I'm also not allowed to grow a 'tache, but that's another conversation) and you tend to get tongue or helmet strays. But not bald because apparently on men it looks stupid.

I think that your partner should have a say in your pube-length, as they are the person that spends the most time down there. If they want it short, take it short. It's polite.
 
 
will
12:28 / 02.11.06
As a newcomer jumping in at the ludicrous deep end...

Hair is culturally quite unsettling stuff, seemingly. Is it dead, or alive? Is it part of us, or not? Hair is a problem category, along with fingernails, snot and other stuff that pours out of our bodies.

It's also a form of excreta... so there is something intrinsically unpleasant about it. There are plenty of taboos against cut off hair being dirty.

Consequently, wherever you go around the world, hair seems to have to have stuff done to it - and have stuff done in a pretty ritualistic way too. It has to be cleansed and controlled...

Our own culture seems to be becoming more and more hairless - to the point where Borat's comedy moustache is apparently hilarious. Hair is now restricted to several safe zones on the body - male and female.

Quite what that means, or where the genital Toni & Guy fits in, I.... er... I...
 
 
Spaniel
12:44 / 02.11.06
You really think most people think of hair as problematic - like excreta?

I don't. I really, really don't.

Anyone else?
 
 
Sniv
12:45 / 02.11.06
to the point where Borat's comedy moustache is apparently hilarious.

%Is it? Is it you that finds this hilarious, or 'people'?%
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:02 / 02.11.06
Mist: In a couple of years/decades, every human body will decompose or be ash, which makes this fixation on bodies look like renovating appartments in a burning building.

Bob: This is frankly weird and rather divorced from the day to day facts of life. Also, isn't the simile being employed rather heavy handed? By that rationale why do anything?

Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with or stupid about caring about your body or the way it looks, and I certainly don't think that today's way is really much worse than, for example, men having to get Prince Alberts or women shaving their heads to suit wigs...we all care about our bodies in some way, even if we're not wearing makeup or fussing over clothes, in that, for example, we will run away from a fire or a large violent animal in order to preserve it.

Though this may be neither here nor there, I am heartily sick of sneering, Army-surplus clad Dream Theatre fans slagging off women in the street for the crime of wearing pink or having blonde hair etc etc.

Or, to be more precise, accusations of vanity/obsession with the body/it's looks are frequently deployed in a variety of misogynistic, homophobic, and downright hypoctitical and miserable ways by hypocritical and miserable people. Including me, for a period of about eight years.

On the other hand, I'm not aiming any of that at Mist, and I think what Mist is specifically talking about is phenomena like anorexia which are certainly not cool and seem to be on the increase if the statistics are to be beleived. As with most things, the general rule is that if it's stopped being about having fun and looking/feeling good then it's bad.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
13:22 / 02.11.06
In a couple of years/decades, every human body will decompose or be ash, which makes this fixation on bodies look like renovating apartments in a burning building.

A couple of years or decades? Is there some looming apocalypse I should know about? Is it teh 2012? Peak oil? Zombies?

Also, I don't know if pube-shaving is as Zahir said a desire to return to our childhood bodies, or to sexualise the bodies of children (welcome to the board by the way). I would probably link it to the aesthetics of porn becoming more desirable, particularly for young people (the 16-30 age group, roughly). See also Anal sex, a staple of porn which has become a lot more common- I can't find a link here (searching for 'anal sex' on teh interweb is rather pointless) but a survey suggests that 1/3 of sexually active heterosexual women aged 18-22 have tried it. I'd be interested to know how many men and women spruce things up 'down there'- I'd estimate it would be higher for women than men, and probably also about 1/3.
 
 
will
15:20 / 02.11.06
You really think most people think of hair as problematic - like excreta?

Don't look at me. My hair is definitely problematic.

However the concept comes from the anthropologist Mary Douglas, who saw hair as one of our problem categories... "matter out of place".
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
16:56 / 02.11.06
I had considered giving things a nice clean shave, but my problem has always been where to stop. I wouldn't want to look like I have some unnatural bald spot, so there goes the tummy hair, but now I have a gleaming belly under my chest, so the chest hair has to go. That is not even taking into consideration my legs.

So yeah, shaving completely never seemed like a good idea. Of course, like so much in life, it seeming like a bad/silly looking idea didn't stop me. It was a bit of a chore, and felt really nice for a day or so. When the hairs started growing in though, that was unpleasant.
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:44 / 02.11.06
A couple of years or decades? Is there some looming apocalypse I should know about? Is it teh 2012? Peak oil? Zombies?

I meant to write: "humans alive today", not all of us from the Stone to the Eloi Age.
 
 
Spaniel
17:47 / 02.11.06
I know who Mary Douglas is and I think she had some interesting things to say, and, now that I'm away from work and calmer and happier, I can see where you're coming from, but I think the picture is probably a lot more complicated than your explanation (I know, I know - it's not precisely an explanation and it's not precisely yours), in that I don't think our relationship to hair is so easily reduced.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
11:08 / 03.11.06
It's interesting to see that a fair number of 'lithers seem to feel that pubic shaving / waxing etc. is a negative practice. Anyone prepared to speak in its favour?
 
 
Spaniel
13:33 / 03.11.06
Are you?

I don't really have much invested in this discussion so I'd be interested to hear a positive take.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
15:54 / 03.11.06
I trim the stuff from time to time. I'd permanently exfoliate my entire body (possibly excepting eyebrows) if it was reasonably practicable. Hair is hassle.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
15:58 / 03.11.06
That is a good point Kay.

If there was a permanent and pain free way to remove all hair from my nose down I would do it. It isn't like the stuff keeps me warm.
 
 
diz
06:53 / 05.11.06
the phenomenon of male>female age gaps being normative in het relationships is also probably worthy of analysis...

Not to be a genetic determinist or anything, but it's easy to argue that that has more to do with different aging/life cycles in men and women than anything else. We're all driven at a genetic level to mate and produce offspring. Basically, women who plan on having children (and statistically most women do end up having a child or two in their lives) really need to start getting on that sometime in their twenties or early thirties, because after that point . Men have longer, and the need to settle down is less pressing. Thus, in long-term hetero relationships, older men tend to end up with younger women.

If you want to get all pop evolutionary psychology on it, it can be argued that males and females have different criteria for mate suitability. From an evolutionary psych perspective, females are evaluated by males primarily in terms of their genetic suitability for producing healthy and successful offspring, and most of the visual cues for that have fed into our standards of beauty. Males, however, are evaluated by females according to their ability and willingness to provide resources for their potential offspring.

The short form of this is that women and men have different kinds of currency in the dating marketplace, and while women derive theirs from physical attractiveness, men derive theirs from making money. Female "evolutionary spending power" peaks early, since women are generally considered most attractive in their early to mid-twenties, and so that's when they're most likely to find a desirable mate. Male "evolutionary spending power," however, grows over time, with their actual spending power. Few men make less money at 35 than they did at 21, but few women are generally understood to be as physically attractive at 35 as they were at 21.

However, I do believe you're missing one very important reason for pube-shaving, which is the age-old problem of pubes on the tongue/in the teeth

I don't really mind getting them caught in my teeth or anything like that, but when you get that one stray that sticks to the inside of your throat, and you can't seem to wash it down with anything, and it just kind of tickles.... madness.

However, it's not worth the trade-off to me. I prefer the natural or gently-trimmed look aesthetically myself, and I'm willing to put up with the occasional curly hair in my throat. I don't especially dislike the shaved look, but it doesn't really do anything for me, and I hate when a partner unveils their shaved genitals like I'm supposed to be driven wild and I have to either react honestly and kill the moment or feign arousal, which I really think is just an awful thing to do.

I think that your partner should have a say in your pube-length, as they are the person that spends the most time down there. If they want it short, take it short. It's polite.

I can definitely get behind that idea.

Though this may be neither here nor there, I am heartily sick of sneering, Army-surplus clad Dream Theatre fans slagging off women in the street for the crime of wearing pink or having blonde hair etc etc.

I think I may just be sick of Dream Theatre fans in general. But, yes, I loathe the puritanical reactions of people who condemn hair dye, shaving, tattoos, piercings, plastic surgery, etc., for any reason. Whatever your argument against any kind of body manipulation or alteration as willingly performed by adults, I can't see that your concerns trump the importance of the presumption of the sovereignty of individuals over their own bodies.

I would probably link it to the aesthetics of porn becoming more desirable, particularly for young people (the 16-30 age group, roughly).

But porn didn't used to be such a hair free zone. Neither did strip clubs - I remember a friend of mine who had been shaved being forced to grow a landing strip* (aka racing stripe) in order to get a job stripping. I would say that 15-20 years ago, it was much more common to see women in porn with a landing strip than totally shaved, though the racing stripe seemed to be more common in porn than in real life at the time**. I only really started noticing shaved pussies as the norm in porn around the same time it seemed to be becoming the norm outside of porn.

There's some kind of co-evolution thing going on here, maybe, where the women in porn started off as being more tightly groomed than women outside of porn, then as porn became mainstreamed, especially in the dramatic way it's mainstreamed for hetero women in the past decade, there was a sort of "arms race" of genital shaving, until shaved bald became the norm both inside and out of porn.

* There's a strip club in Austin, TX called the Landing Strip, and it's right next to the airport. Classic.

** Admittedly, my sample for "real life" at the time was much more limited, seeing as how I was between 11-16 years old in the time period in question.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
08:47 / 05.11.06
That is a good point Kay.

If there was a permanent and pain free way to remove all hair from my nose down I would do it. It isn't like the stuff keeps me warm.


Pfah. What are clothes for? I'll be more specific, then; all distinctive hair, as opposed to the very fine covering on, say, your flanks. Dunno about the rest of ya but I don't have much hair at all on my sides, chest, back or arms, it's the stuff on the legs that's the, uh, pits. I do feel the cold more than most, mind.

I wonder if male pubic hair has much of a role to play in temperature regulation of the testicles?

...s'pose I should mention that the first time(s) I ever ended up shaved down there were for medical reasons. I do not recommend having someone else do it while you're unconscious, nosiree.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
12:43 / 05.11.06
Yeesh. I now know more about hair than I ever really wanted to. Apparently the noticeable 'proper' hair is "terminal" hair and the (short, colourless majority) rest is "vellus" hair, and noone really knows, evolutionally speaking, why we have what we have.

Wiki reckons total hairlessness was a fad with the ancients.

Please excuse me for a while. I'm off to hunt down the perpetrator of the term "manscaping" and lock them in a room with whoever coined "metrosexual".
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
12:54 / 06.11.06
Thanks to all of you for replying.

Personally, I prefer my partners sans pubic hair - it's a visual thing, but also a tactile thing. Maybe its mainstreaming is also to do with a kind of longing to evolve? It's surely no coincidence that a common sci-fi trope is the advanced, hairless species?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
14:27 / 06.11.06
I wonder if male pubic hair has much of a role to play in temperature regulation of the testicles?

Probably not, since testicles work better when they're cool (which is why you shouldn't have a laptop on top of your lap for a long time). Does anybody know what function pubic hair plays?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
15:49 / 06.11.06
Function... in days gone by, pubic hair protected the genitals by attracting dirt etc. Hopefully this is pretty much not needed in the days of the power-shower. It also traps scent, in order to attract sexual partners.
 
 
Fist Fun
08:28 / 07.11.06
So why is it important to wash your bits then? Surely if I didn't wash the scent would trap much better?
 
 
Triplets
01:38 / 08.11.06
To get rid of the dirt. The scent comes back on it's own quicker than grime, surely?
 
 
Triplets
01:39 / 08.11.06
Did you honestly just ask why we need to wash our bits?
 
  

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