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Seven Soldiers Sucks

 
  

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Janean Patience
20:01 / 23.10.06
There are already eight different threads on Seven Soldiers. Here’s another. It’s for people who’ve read the series, and it’s dedicated to the modest proposal that the series, popular as it’s been on Barbelith, totally sucks. The main threads already more than a thousand posts long, full of speculation and spiral dynamics and subsequent sightings of the SS Seven, and within a few short days it’ll be full of the new issue. I felt a new thread would be better able to step aside from all that As The Series Continues… stuff and to concentrate more on being critical.

It hopefully goes without saying that this thread is full of SPOILERS.

Let’s begin with my expectations. I’ve gone off superheroes generally but loved the Morrison JLA, so I was there for the prologue. I was hoping for two things, both promised in pre-publicity:
1) Seven different mini-series, each telling a stand-alone story
2) One over-arching story 30 issues long

SS #0 was great. The sheer audacity of beginning a series about seven soldiers with six completely different soldiers, showing their recruitment and their massacre, was fantastic. The writing felt dense; no-one had written about the world attached to super-heroes before, their trade mags and neophytes and wannabes, the desire to be one and how you get into the game. In a few pages with The Whip we see the rewards, the price, and the addiction of it.

I enjoyed the first issues of the first four as well, but they weren’t fantastic. A single issue prologue was better than all four. With the completion of the initial four minis, it became clear we’d been sold a partial pup. A stand-alone story doesn’t conclude with “A Soldier Will Die! Will it be etc.” The series felt like try-outs for new characters, a way of using some of the concepts from the famous Morrison Notebooks without really expanding on them much. And the problems I complained about in the Authority thread – storytelling, lazy splashes, weak plots – were becoming motifs.

Unanswered questions: Why, exactly, was Zatanna’s ideal man the Herald of the Apocalypse? Why did their worries about the Sheeda lead to her father’s books? If he’s the Herald, how come he’s a shapeshifting demon a month later? What was the point of that Phantom Stranger cameo? Why’s
In the Guardian, Soapy’s map is torn from his back by No-Beard. The next time we see him, he’s about to be roasted alive by All-Beard, whose name he invoked pages earlier. What happened there, then?
Why exactly does Helligan take Alix to see the Iron Hand? To get something against her sister’s husband-to-be? I couldn’t see any reason why she’d link the dead Soldiers with her sister, apart from the coincidence that gets dropped in during conversation.

Cliché: A fake attack serving as The Guardian’s interview? Unoriginal. The superhero’s family getting coincidentally kidnapped in his very first case? Very unoriginal.

Unnecessary spreads: Currently re-reading the series (in the vague hope that maybe it wouldn’t suck) the next issue I picked up was Klarion #4. Three one-page splashes and a double-page spread. That’s just less than a quarter of the comics length, for an issue which admittedly is the climax but isn’t in any way widescreen. In the issues I’ve read since, two full-page shots is the absolute minimum.
That’s not to say they’re always badly chosen – the two-pager at the end of Guardian #3 is powerful, a lot of the opening splashes are fun. But they’re appearing far too often and they’re not, as in Ellis’s Authority run or similar, a part of the storytelling technique. They read like a writer’s shortcut – big, wordless page here, make it plenty dramatic. Another one down.

Storytelling issues: These have been discussed at length on Barbelith already. In Klarion #3, as discussed on here, the whole sequence with the museum requires a couple of reads to puzzle it out. Is it closed or open? Why does Teekl have to watch the guards when the kids are in there already?
In Guardian #4, the events that split the Newsboy Army were recounted in a page, mainly a panel, and required extensive decoding before we knew what happened. Mr Miracle #2’s first few pages are a complete trainwreck. Who’s where? What’s going on? The fill-in artist’s probably to blame for that one, but when the storytelling troubles begin with JLA Classified and run right through, then the issues aren’t all with the artists.
The Guardian, in #3, lands in a simulated world which we’re told about in great detail. It sounds intriguing. This is a representation of Earth which truly is representative.
Until we get to the story, which is the same old theme-park-robots-gone-bad rubbish that’s been done so often before. Australia’s about the size of Fred’s Weather Map. Most of the robots are comedy Europeans in national costume.
In Bulleteer #1, Alix survived because she was wearing her ring. Her husband died because he wasn’t. This was presumably meant to be clear, with various close-ups of hands and rings, but was hell to puzzle out. In #4, there’s a storytelling screw-up which destroys the whole issue – Sally Sonics can’t grow up. But she’s drawn as a grown woman. She’s got boobs; okay, not on the scale of Alix’s Boob War specials, but certainly enough that the creepy paedophile feel we’re picking up from the dialogue is entirely absent from the art.
And those are just the best examples of muddled storytelling. Far more often, there’s nothing that can be particularly pointed to but it seems lazy. Any given issue, after the first four or five, does no more than it should and a lot less. The only rereading in the comics is to work out what happened when it’s not made clear. There’s nothing extra to pick up. There’s only one layer. Once the series is going, every chapter feels like a first draft. We found out more about super-wannabes in a few pages of SS#1 than in the whole of Bulleteer #3.

The fragments of the overarching story looked good, but they weren’t backed up. The members of the Newsboy Army looked set to appear more often, and didn’t. The seven treasures of the series were only intermittently referenced. The Sheeda didn’t turn up half the time. It was left to Frankenstein to dot all the I’s and cross the t’s – taking out the Sheeda invasion in #1, Melmoth in #2, getting a solo adventure in #3 (Hey, kids! This is what a Frankenstein series would be like!) and taking out Nebula Man and the Sheeda forces in #4. The death of Nebula Man’s particularly weak – the seeds of his doom were planted in a prologue which hadn’t been referenced until now.

You can do a single large story by telling the individual stories of disparate characters who rarely, if ever, meet. I can’t think of an example in comics, but the middle two books of James Ellroy’s LA Quartet do this, and William Gibson’s Sprawl trilogy pulls it off, especially Count Zero.

These criticisms are premature, obviously. SS#1’s out this week and could, I suppose, brilliantly tie everything together. I can’t see it, though. That’s not exactly a Morrison specialty, after all. I imagine the last issue will be enjoyable, and should answer a few of the dangling questions, but it’ll leave a lot behind.

The opinion that Morrison’s spreading himself too thin has surfaced over the last few days on Barbelith. (Grant Morrison Bites, Seven Soldiers Sucks… please, keep the next thread attacking GM or his work in line with the oral contempt theme and say something Blows.) It fits; this period of work, much of which I’m skipping or Byrne-stealing, reminds me of Invisibles v2 when there was too much work for it all to be good. There were obviously parts of SS I enjoyed. Zatanna’s characterisation was perfect throughout, Frankenstein captured that horror-pulp mood, Klarion and the Guardian were wonderful creations. Overall, though, the ideas and characters that are always there in GM's work are badly served by the actual writing.
 
 
Janean Patience
20:04 / 23.10.06
Support gathered from other threads:

Mister Six:
Essentially what I dislike about 7S is Grant's wave of ideas not connecting. I mean, he's got these four issues to fill and for me as a reader I didn't see a thread from beginning to end. There were very strong beginnings followed by fits and starts that culminated in a cliffhanger ending a year later (This is a limited review as I was turned off by Zattana, Klarion and Shining Knight by issue 3, only bought the entire Guardian mini). I was also peeved that the idea you could read just one mini and be satisfied was bullshit... for me, anyway. Zatanna borrowed ideas and plot-threads from Shining Knight and the issues just seemed to focus on Grant's idea of the day rather than following the character's growth, which should have been easy given the strong beginnings each mini had.

Papers:
Mister Miracle, which was one of the ones I was really looking forward to, only I ended up walking away with a bad taste in my mouth. It did not feeling like it was trying.

Miss Wonderstarr:
With Bulleteer and Frankenstein, which I also saved up for today, I've been wondering whether I'm expecting too much from Seven Soldiers. I enjoyed both while I was reading them, as a kind of candy hit, but they really don't integrate much into an overall story arc, do they? They're great in terms of adopting a different tone for each book, and rounding out new, intriguing, appealing characters (and secondary casts), and exploring different styles (gothic sci-fi, superhero porn) but they don't add up to a chapter in Seven Soldiers Vs Sheeda, in the same way as a chapter of 8C advances that narrative, or even a chapter in One Million worked as part of a larger story.

These feel more like trial runs for ongoing characters, mini-shots (they do feel like shots, in the down-in-one, little glass of buzz, alcoholic sense... in a good way) and experimental showcases, than tiles in a grand design.

I also felt it about Mister Miracle #4... like, oh is that it, it's over and there was maybe one off-hand reference to the Sheeda?

I suggest that MM was a messy miniseries with mediocre art and a reprehensibly inadequate connection to Seven Soldiers. I wonder if you're not all doing Morrison's work for him by trying so hard to tie it up and make sense of it. It's like he performed 40% and you're giving it an extra 80. I don't think this series hung together at all, and as a puzzle I think it's a cheat.

Quoer d’Lyn:
I think the four-issue limited series Bulleteer is the stupidest thing GM has done in a long time. Maybe it's a commentary on the state of contemporary superhero fiction or something, but I don't really care: I'm getting a little tired of superhero comics that comment on "the state of contemprorary superhero fiction." The character herself is dull, her "adventures" are both prosaic and meandering (I can enjoy either one, but not both), the jokes are boorish, and the sex vibe doesn't titillate me. Morrison is at his least interesting when he tries to get sexy.

Alex:
Agreed, really. While I suppose the lives of these down-at-heel superheroes are meant to be a bit banal and icky, this month's episode of The Bulleteer struck me as being similar to today (Sunday's) revelations in The News Of The World wrt Danni Minogue's 'lesbian romps' with this or that lap-dancer - flat, cheap 'sexy' material that essentially just bores. Possibly, George was doing this on purpose, but, whatever point he was trying to make, next month's ish still looks like more of a chore than a pleasure.

Phex:
MM embodies one of my favorite criticisms of GM's work: 'you always feel like you've missed an issue'. I'll admit there's a lot of good ideas, and I liked the art, but after reading it I always feel a little...hollow.
 
 
Billuccho!
20:08 / 23.10.06
and could, I suppose, brilliantly tie everything together. I can’t see it, though. That’s not exactly a Morrison specialty, after all.

Everything I've read of G-Mozz's ties altogether in the end.

I think most of your problems and questions can be solved by a more careful reading of the material.

Aside from Mister Miracle, I have greatly enjoyed Seven Soldiers.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:19 / 23.10.06
Why exactly does Helligan take Alix to see the Iron Hand? To get something against her sister’s husband-to-be? I couldn’t see any reason why she’d link the dead Soldiers with her sister, apart from the coincidence that gets dropped in during conversation.

Sorry, in the middle of prepping lunch, but I picked this out...Helligan takes Alix to see Iron Hand because Iron Hand was connected to the original Nebula Man attack way back in the day, and they have footage of Neb-uh-loh attacking the Six Dead Soldiers...hence, there's a connection between the cases. Alix is only there to prove a point; they've called in this flashy new superhuman and Helligan wants her as muscle to shake up the Iron Hand.

The bit about her sister's wedding is entirely unrelated initially, except that it all connects up in the big picture - which of course Helligan tends to be able to see.

Does that make any sense? I quite liked that particular issue of Bulleteer.

Broader implications and response to your initial post later, that one just stuck out to me.
 
 
CameronStewart
20:34 / 23.10.06
>>>Australia’s about the size of Fred’s Weather Map. Most of the robots are comedy Europeans in national costume.<<<

If anything, those are criticisms that should be levelled at me, not Grant.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:16 / 23.10.06
Well I hope George is going to pull all this together in the last issue, but in forty eight pages I'm a bit stumped as to how he's going to manage it. Pretty clearly, that's why he is teh comix genius and I am no better than a worm, but at the moment it seems as Seven Soldiers is going to finish far from happily in a narrative sense, a bit like the New X-Men, all over again. Certainly nothing he's written recently (the Jimmy Olsen episode of ASS excepted, I suppose, but I don't know, even that, once past the initial great idea for the character, seemed to fall a bit flat,) looks to hold out much hope. Especially annoying is the appearance of a lot of these characters in other DC titles supposedly post the denouement - Given that Greg presumably has a certain amount of influence at DC, the fact that he's effectively allowed his own cliffhanger to be, if not blown, then at least fairly heavily compromised, would tend to suggest that he isn't especially all that bothered about the project as a whole these days.

Still, not all that long to go now. Perhaps it's best to reserve judgement.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:35 / 23.10.06
I think most of your problems and questions can be solved by a more careful reading of the material.

I think Wolf's presented a reading of the material more careful than should really be demanded by a superhero comic in otder to make basic sense of what's going on.

I'm not saying caped funnybooks should be simple, but I think their depths and complexities should be revealed beneath a comprehensible and satisfying narrative on the top level. The most obvious case is still, sorry to be boring, Watchmen. I could return to that book now and find some new connection or echo I'd missed, but the first time I read it, I knew exactly what had happened on a basic storytelling level, and I had a strong sense of character and essential theme. It all added up.

If Seven Soldiers demands that I study messy panels by fill-in artists and decipher them to make sense of what's going on, that is not a rewarding and challenging "puzzle" intended by the author to test the intelligent reader, that is me going 150% to make up for the failure of the artwork.

If Seven Soldiers demands that I fanwank explanations for the kinds of inconsistency and gaps that Wolf, I think, quite fairly and persuasively documents, then that is not a radical type of four-dimensional comic where the reader has to join the dots and complete the structure as a meta-member of the creative team, that is me generously, desperately trying to excuse the shortcomings of this interesting but probably flawed experiment for my own sake (to justify all the time and money I've spent on Seven Soldiers) and out of possibly-misplaced loyalty to Grant Morrison.
 
 
Sniv
21:40 / 23.10.06
This may sound like fanboy apologism (perhaps it is), but one of the things I most like about Morrison's comics is the imagination it involves on the part of the reader. That's why I think the page you reference in Guardian #4 is really a masterstroke of comics storytelling. All the information you need is throughout the issue, but it's in the background, you're never hit over the head with it. This is true of the book a number of times, a certain fill-in-the-blanks storytelling, but unlike you, I quite like it. The ending to MM always leaves me spinning, if only because I partly grasp what's going on. But after a few readthroughs, and discussion, I've come to a satisfactory reading of the issue that means I enjoy it even more that I did before, when I understood it superficially. If that isn't depth, I don't know what is.

Anyway, I think it's a little early to call curtains on the project yet, you may end up with egg on your face come wednesday.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:46 / 23.10.06
I'd be happy to get come on my face egg Wednesday [sic], after investing so much in this series. What you see as intentional "complexity", though, John, I see as a very generous reading of authorial carelessness, overreaching and in some cases maybe just error. I guess a number of the factors mentioned on this thread ~ such as this year's comics apparently giving away the central mystery of who survives ~ have led me to lose a certain amount of faith in Morrison's masterminding of the project. It all depends on how much trust you have in him, I think, and whether you're prepared to treat "poring over comics again and again to glean a basic sense from them" as (as noted above) a radical involvement of the reader in the narrative process, or a sign of messy, incompetent storytelling.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:53 / 23.10.06
Why, exactly, was Zatanna’s ideal man the Herald of the Apocalypse? Why did their worries about the Sheeda lead to her father’s books? If he’s the Herald, how come he’s a shapeshifting demon a month later? What was the point of that Phantom Stranger cameo?

1. I assumed she summoned Gwydion because she didn't specify particularly what she wanted - and she was having prophetic dreams about the Sheeda and the whole underlying plot. The implication was that Gwydion was part of her literal dreams and the miscast spell conjured him. As well, he's a creature of living language, which works as a tacit link to Zatanna and her particular variety of magic.

2. The Liber [sic] Zatarae are just your average McGuffin - items purported to have a lot of power. Zatanna idolizes her father and hence assumes that his alluded to artefacts will be of sufficient power to aid them in fighting the Sheeda.

3. "Demon" as a description might be a generalization based on the characters not having all of the information.

4. Phantom Stranger shows up because of (a) coincidence and (b) full-circleness. Cassandra mentions him earlier and he completes the action she mentions. She was a member of his supporting cast and his arrival sets up the interconnections in the mystical community, adds a little humour, and helps to flesh out Cassandra a little bit for those of us unfamiliar to her. As well, Phantom Stranger showing up also works in a thematic sense - spontaneous return for a mysterious gentleman in evening wear, he reflects the Promise of Zatara and Zor's arrival in #4. Do you object to it because it didn't really come to anything?

I wouldn't say that Seven Soldiers sucks; certainly it's a flawed narrative which - if nothing else - failed to follow through with Morrison's hype. Modular, yes, but to varying degrees. Some of the series - Bulleteer, and Zatanna walk a thin line between being too connected to the Sheeda plot and not enough. It doesn't feel tacked onto Frankenstein and Shining Knight, but Mister Miracle wasn't connected much at all - on first sight, apparently, based on the previews for #1. The books could have used another layer of editing and as Cameron points out - some of it is on the artists. The museum sequence in Klarion was indeed confused, and I'd say that was a 50/50 split.

It's a thirty-comic series, and I'm not sure I've ever seen thirty issues of any comic that all uniformly surprised and delighted me. Things go up and down. I loved Zatanna and felt a little uninspired by Mister Miracle.

Flawed narrative, sure, but I would never say I wasted money buying it. I've enjoyed SS for all it's flaws, and it's failure to live up to certain hype. I'm looking forward to #1 coming out this week.
 
 
Billuccho!
22:58 / 23.10.06
In the Guardian, Soapy’s map is torn from his back by No-Beard. The next time we see him, he’s about to be roasted alive by All-Beard, whose name he invoked pages earlier. What happened there, then?

He survived the back-shredding and went crawling back to his boss All-Beard... who got mad at him for letting their secrets get away and set him on fire.

The Guardian, in #3, lands in a simulated world which we’re told about in great detail. It sounds intriguing. This is a representation of Earth which truly is representative.
Until we get to the story, which is the same old theme-park-robots-gone-bad rubbish that’s been done so often before. Australia’s about the size of Fred’s Weather Map. Most of the robots are comedy Europeans in national costume.


It's a shrunk-down theme park version of the Earth. Of *course* they're all stereotypes. And of course they go evil and try to kill all the poor people looking for Bort license plates. It's what happens in these stories. Guardian is a very traditional kind of 70's superhero.
 
 
Mark Parsons
23:20 / 23.10.06
Sucked? I don't agree. Maybe we expected too much connection vis-a-vis the modularity PR, but the existing connections are pretty cool, IMO. Plus, SSoV 1 will throw another perspective on EVERYTHING, i suspect.

PS: kvetching about fill in art seems a tad pointless: it seems to have happened very late in the game. with Ferry leaving and all.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:27 / 23.10.06
Bills: Guardian is a very traditional kind of 70's superhero.

A very traditional Marvel 70s superhero, right down to the family trauma almost right off the bat. Wolf puts that up as a criticism, and that's valid, but it does work if you look at Jake as being a homage to a particular era and style. Which shouldn't be a justificiation, I suppose. But, on the other hand, Jake's skews his construction - he's saved by the Newsboy Army on more than one occasion, and in the end recruits his supporting cast (and calls Carla) because he can ask for help.

Kind of like how Alix is all about being willing to admit that you're just a person and you don't desperately need to be special, or Klarion's apparent lack of ingrained morals (despite where he comes from), or Zatanna freely admitting - constantly - that's she's made a mess of her life. I like that the Soldiers mostly fail at being traditional longjohns heroes and remake the equation.

But that doesn't really address the "sucky" aspects of Soldiers. I was frustrated with Mister Miracle because the timeline is shaky and confusing - is everything from 1-3 a real event, or was this all just part of the life-trap that Shilo escapes from in the Event Horizon? Or does his escape from the Life-Trap allow him to return to the Event Horizon and meet Metron a second time? I think Shilo's mini falters because it doesn't firmly ground the reader enough and connect its cosmic plotline to the larger arc so we're unable to properly get a grip on what's happening. But it's possible that I'm missing something in my reading. I found the other minis to be largely easy to get, and rereads just brought deeper connections, with a few notable exceptions. Which is what I have Barbelith for; part of what I've enjoyed about the series is simply riffing on ideas and observations with everyone on the Comics, which has nothing to do with Morrison or the art but helps prevent me from thinking it plain "sucks."
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
00:00 / 24.10.06
Why, exactly, was Zatanna’s ideal man the Herald of the Apocalypse?

Because the original spell she cast wasn't for her ideal man (that's what she intended, but not what she actually said - which is the point of the first issue). Her actual spell was, and I quote, "gnirb em eht nam fo ym smaerd" - since, as papers pointed out, she'd been having prophetic dreams about the Sheeda invasion that, at least, makes perfect sense without having to do too much over-analysis of the book itself. I think you've got at least a few valid points in regard to some of your other criticisms - I've enjoyed Seven Soldiers enormously, but it's hard to ignore/deny some of the more glaring flaws which have been pointed out here - but that one, at least, doesn't hold up to any scrutiny of the actual book itself.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:22 / 24.10.06
Sally Sonics can’t grow up. But she’s drawn as a grown woman. She’s got boobs; okay, not on the scale of Alix’s Boob War specials, but certainly enough that the creepy paedophile feel we’re picking up from the dialogue is entirely absent from the art.

I read it that the point was Sally was stuck in perpetual Captain Marvel mode - Sally Sonic is a grown up superwoman and Sara Smart is stuck at sweet sixteen. I think this could have been clearer if Paquette had a better range of female body types he was (apparently) capable of drawing, or if they'd explained some sort of time-limit on using the magic whistle. In some shots of Sara (and especially in the Zatanna art) she's more clearly young-looking, but I think Sook has a better range than Paquette.

I actually assumed that by the time she got to Vitaman, Sally had given up on being Sara altogether and just stayed powered-up all the time - hence changing in a phone booth rather than, say, unwhistling somewhere.
 
 
Jared Louderback
05:24 / 24.10.06
I gotta agree with the overall idea of this thread, but the series sure did spawn some great moments. I mean, frankenstiens "1 Billion years in the futures!" gives me joycore shivers up my spine, and the last issue of MM, where Shilo looks at the reader and asks him if we can escape togather makes me grin a grin of pure joy. If this was a failed attempt at modular comics, or whatever it is they are calling it, it was a fun failed attempt at least. And I respect Morrison for trying something completely off the wall mad, even if it was perhaps poorly planned.


And if it was bad, it was still much, much better than 80 percent of the rest of the market.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:31 / 24.10.06
On the little evidence we have, it seems that some of the time Morrison writes bad scripts and other times artists don't bother to draw what he asks them to. Reading the script for Arkham Asylum in the anniversary edition, that would have been a good story if McKean had drawn what Morrison told him to draw rather than ignoring it and doing his own thing. The scenes in Invisibles 3.2 which Cameron had to redraw for the trade that were printed in the Bomb seemed fairly impossible for a jobbing artist to understand, but then next page John Ridgeway decides to ignore the script and do his own thing. It seems that the only times scripts work out is when Grant works with either Cameron or Frank Quitely.

I'm rereading the Seven Soldiers minis at the mo so will come back to this after I've finished. My initial feeling is that you're sort of right but your specific complaints aren't necessarily. I'll be back to this.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:04 / 24.10.06
It seems that the only times scripts work out is when Grant works with either Cameron or Frank Quitely.

How far back are you going? To the Arkham Asylum period, apparently, so what about Richard Case, Philip Bond, Steve Yeowell... even the cack-handed artists on JLA produced work from GM's scripts that you could make sense of.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
10:54 / 24.10.06
ask me tomorrow if it sucks. it's tomorrow that #1's out, yeah? in the worst case scenario you'll be able to say you've read better Morrison. but it's far, far from sucking. best crossover of late.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:07 / 24.10.06
Just to add that despite my criticisms above, I don't think Seven Soldiers, up to this point (pre finale) sucks. I would regard it as an interesting, perhaps over-ambitious and partially-flawed experiment.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:34 / 24.10.06
Miss Wonderstar- Good point, though I suppose I am thinking of the stuff that isn't all surface (KYB, JLA, SG...), and I'm not meaning that derogatorally either.
 
 
Aertho
14:05 / 24.10.06
The Merlyn is living language, and Zatanna Zatara is the Liber Zatarae - her father said so. Words are contained by books, hence the jar.
 
 
PatrickMM
14:47 / 24.10.06
I'd agree that Seven Soldiers might not have fulfilled Grant's promise that each mini and issue would be self contained, and I was certainly a bit disappointed when each one just cuts off mid action, but I don't think those flaws prevent the work from being his best longform work other than The Invisibles.

The thing I love so much about The Invisibles and SS is the way that they present the material, but leave it up to the reader to make the connections. I think it'd be very easy to read through an issue like Zatanna 4 and come away with some vague idea of what happened, and move on. But when you dig deeper, there's a huge arrya of thematic interest, both in terms of the larger SS story and in the evolution of Grant's meta-analysis of comics and the nature of fiction.

Morrison compared the series to Altman's work when it first started, and I think that's very accurate. Like in Nashville, there's one major event used as the structure for all the stories, the Sheeda invasion. We see the overall narrative develop through the different story fragments, but it's up to the reader to piece together the big picture. I think that's what's prompted a lot of people to say that we're doing all the work, and it's true, but I don't see that as a negative. All the pieces are in there, it's clear that Grant has a clear idea of the big picture story, but I don't think he needs to explicitly lay it out. Much like David Lynch, he leaves room for ambiguity and the readers' own interpertation to fill in the gaps.

I guess I approached it as one overall story, broken into pieces, and that's why I was less disappointed when each of the minis didn't quite wind up standing alone. I do think that most of them have a fairly coherent character progression within the four issues, the main work is done, all that's left is the big finale, which hopefully will love up to the buildup.

But even if it doesn't, I think the format forced him to stretch out of his comfort zone and filter a lot of his trademark concepts through new genres and millieus. Zatannna is one of the best things he's ever written, and personally, one of my favorite comics of all time, and others like Guardian #4, Bulleteer #3 and Frankenstein #4 are absolutely fantastic reads. In any experiment this big, you're going to have some parts that don't quite work, but I think the stuff that does far outweighs the problems with the work. It's less cohesive than most things, but that's not necessarily a negative.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:58 / 24.10.06
Personally I love it- and I think it's a little early to talk about it not coming together when we haven't read the ending yet.

My main criticism would be that Mister Miracle was too embedded in the DC universe- I know very little about the New Gods, and while many of the others played off existing DC storylines, this was the only one, I think, that actually required prior knowledge, which jarred a bit with the "almost self-contained" nature of the others.

Well, that and the fact that, having built up so much momentum and excitement, we've had to wait SEVEN MONTHS for #1, and some of the secrets have been blown by characters appearing in 52.
 
 
Janean Patience
15:14 / 24.10.06
Papers re Bulleteer #3: Helligan takes Alix to see Iron Hand because Iron Hand was connected to the original Nebula Man attack way back in the day, and they have footage of Neb-uh-loh attacking the Six Dead Soldiers...hence, there's a connection between the cases. Alix is only there to prove a point; they've called in this flashy new superhuman and Helligan wants her as muscle to shake up the Iron Hand.
The bit about her sister's wedding is entirely unrelated initially, except that it all connects up in the big picture - which of course Helligan tends to be able to see.


Yeah, you’re right. The visit to the Iron Hand is unconnected with the wedding… which takes this from storytelling issue to unbelievable coincidence, for me. Helligan sees the big picture and links the Sheeda attack in LA to the death of the Six. She’s dying of slow-acting poison, but takes the trouble to check out the Iron Hand lead before the wedding, whereupon information that can stop the wedding falls into her lap. Sky-High sees the big picture, or writing that’s not effectively covering the machinery of plot?

Bills: He survived the back-shredding and went crawling back to his boss All-Beard... who got mad at him for letting their secrets get away and set him on fire.

A gap we’re filling in ourselves. You can do this with all the moments of storytelling confusion. You’ll have to clear a shelf for all your No-Prizes by the time you reach the end of the series. I’m not saying these gaps and problems are impossible to explain, just that the lack of explanation is one more thing that ruins the flow of the story.

Bills: I think most of your problems and questions can be solved by a more careful reading of the material.

That’s exactly the problem. If you zoom through the books, you’re left with a general impression of connections unmade. If you go back and read more carefully, then you solve the plot – as witness my mistaken impression about Helligan above – but uncover more problems, such as did we really need all this Iron Hand and werewolf wedding business? I can imagine it being cool. It could have been one more piece of the bigger picture. But, and it’s only my opinion, it’s not been written carefully enough to be read carefully.

Cameron: If anything, those are criticisms that should be levelled at me, not Grant.

I didn’t want to cast aspersions on your creative endeavours, Cameron. I love your art. But yes, those were things that took me out of the story. More, it seemed like the whole preamble about the simulated world being a true representation of global realpolitik rather than a theme park meant nothing as the issue progressed. Nice idea, not followed through.

Miss Wonderstarr: I'm not saying caped funnybooks should be simple, but I think their depths and complexities should be revealed beneath a comprehensible and satisfying narrative on the top level. If Seven Soldiers demands that I study messy panels by fill-in artists and decipher them to make sense of what's going on, that is not a rewarding and challenging "puzzle" intended by the author to test the intelligent reader, that is me going 150% to make up for the failure of the artwork.

Better than I put it myself. The examples I’ve given aren’t the problem. It’s not like once those are explained to me, my objections and dislike of the series will vanish. They’re only the most visible parts of a perceived lack of care throughout the series, where the dialogue and plots are sketchy, written from notes in a hurry and given no depth.

GM’s work often feels like it’s missed an issue. With Invisibles, where there’s characters bouncing around in time and trapped in the supercontext, I’m prepared to believe I need to do the extra work. There were little bits in the Filth and Seaguy I didn’t get; I probably should think about them harder. This is a superhero series, a big and complex one, but not one where an individual issue’s plot should have to be puzzled through.

Papers: I read it that the point was Sally was stuck in perpetual Captain Marvel mode - Sally Sonic is a grown up superwoman and Sara Smart is stuck at sweet sixteen. I think this could have been clearer if Paquette had a better range of female body types he was (apparently) capable of drawing, or if they'd explained some sort of time-limit on using the magic whistle.

Not got to rereading that one yet, but I’ll keep that possibility in mind. I thought she was frozen as a nymphet, to quote Humbert Humbert, in an adolescent or presexual stage. I doubt I’ll be able to work it out from the art.

And another thing, to be the pub bore, that fight in #4 was crap. Alix is taking a beating, she’s being taunted because she doesn’t know how to fight, she’s just been thrown out of a building and then she gets really angry and twats Sally with a car engine. Fight over. That’s not a script. It’s a Jean-Claude Van Damme movie.

Jared: I gotta agree with the overall idea of this thread, but the series sure did spawn some great moments. And if it was bad, it was still much, much better than 80 percent of the rest of the market.

Absolutely, agreed. Rereading Frankenstein, I’d say it hardly sucks at all. Compared to any comic I’d randomly pluck off the stands, SS is a triumph. Compared to the majority of Morrison’s work, and to his own stated ideals for the series, it’s a failure.

I was kind of taking a pose when I said “SS sucks”. A more literal way of saying the same thing would be “Seven Soldiers could have been great and has flashes of greatness, but a lack of care and/or time in the writing means it doesn’t do what it promised and, in fact, is as messy and disappointing as most crossovers.”
 
 
PatrickMM
15:43 / 24.10.06
Re: Sally Sonic, I got the impression that she was supposed to appear much younger than she was, and I'm guessing the reason this didn't happen is because at some stage someone got uncomfortable putting out a book that would be an example of the very thing its supposed to be condemning, the focus on children as sexual objects. I think that would have the logical conclusion to Bulleteer's examination of the construction of women as sexual objects, however, the art just didn't match the words and that caused some problems.

As a side note, if you look at the sketches in the back of the first trade, both JH and Grant's sketches are more normally proportioned than what Alix wound up with. I'm not sure at what point in the evolution of the project Grant decided to shift the book's focus.
 
 
Sniv
16:26 / 24.10.06
did we really need all this Iron Hand and werewolf wedding business?

Well, yes and no. Yes, because the Iron Hand stuff was about Iron Hand summoning Nebs from summer's end and pointing him towards the Golden Age Seven Soldiers, and also told us that Boy Blue from #0 was his nephew and betrayed Vigilante's team. And, it gave a reason for Iron Hand's hatred of Vigilante. The werewolf stuff was in there, I think, because it was a funny way of showing that this whole mess arose out of a mis-understanding and also it was a way for Helligan to go out with a bang. It demonstrated her 'big-picture' power (which means we can trust the theories she gives earlier) and was a good punchline to the Iron Hand/Vigilante situation. So, the werefolf marriage wasn't necessary per se, it was a nice ending to the issue.

Also, it was another way of making the story about someone other than Alix, which seems to be a theme in her series and is what leads to her twatting Sally with the car-engine - "Enough of everyone and their problems! What about me?!" - rather than the standard super-hero fight that you seemed to have been expecting.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:07 / 24.10.06
Thing is, it seems to me that the vast majority of criticism on this thread stems from the it-doesn't-tie-together-neatly place. I don't, and haven't for a long time, expected Grant to be any great shakes at consistency/continuity/etc. He isn't. But, y'know, if I want a comic where superteams are injected into sentient infant universes that have been infected by a plague inducing supervillain in order to create a flaw of goodness in his interstellar heart then....

Fucking YES!!!

Soldiers is, as usual, tonally kaliedoscopic, psychedelic, experimental, breathless - everything I ask for from Grant Morrison. I could grumble, but equally I could grumble about the excessive anality of Alan Moore's work.

This has all been said before. I'll shut up now.
 
 
CameronStewart
17:36 / 24.10.06
>>>I'm guessing the reason this didn't happen is because at some stage someone got uncomfortable putting out a book that would be an example of the very thing its supposed to be condemning, the focus on children as sexual objects.<<<

Originally the cover of Guardian #4 was to feature the headline "SEX SECRETS OF THE NEWSBOY ARMY!" but it was me that pointed out to our editor that maaaaayyybe having those words right next to a picture of a group of 12-year-olds, with the promise of "LURID PICTURES INSIDE!" might not have been the wisest idea, so we changed it to "Dark Secrets."

Call me crazy.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:41 / 24.10.06
Taste aside, I don't think "sex secrets" would have worked as well- I really wasn't expecting that at all, and had it been hinted at on the cover the shock may not have worked so well.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:33 / 24.10.06
I'd like to come back when I'm not dangerously drunk, but for the record I thought Cameron's work on The Manhattan Guardian absolutely nobbing rocked. Issue 3 was not the stand-out issue for me - 2 and 4, definitely - but it remains one of the most satisfying of the minis. To be honest, at this point the appearance of SS1 seems rather akin to a sighting of the Arc of the Covenant, golden piles and all, but I'll read it with interest if it actually turns up.
 
 
The Falcon
22:42 / 24.10.06
Storywise, I thought Guardian veered from fairly weak (#1 and #3) to sublime (the other two,) but I do think the strongest artwork is in #3; one of my fave pages in the (entire 7S) series is Jake diving from the newscopter to Ellis Island*, and - contrastingly - if you have a look at the last 4-5 pages of #4 they look very unpolished; I think Cameron may have mentioned at the time being rushed, but after seeing how long Mahnke and Sook took over their finales, I do wish he'd taken the extra week or so.

*Another is Bianchi's splash of Neh-Buh-Loh attacking Casa Vincenzo.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:00 / 24.10.06
That's a very interesting tension - between "for God's sake, you have a schedule" and "for God's sake, take the time you need to make this perfect". One of the mildly irksome things for me about Seven Soldiers is that this delay between the end of the minis and SS1 does give the impression that everyone concerned could have taken a bit more time and spaced things out - except of course that they were all busy doing other things as well, and then we get on to the Kordey Kwestion. And, of course, yet more complaints about missed shipping dates.
 
 
--
23:35 / 24.10.06
Anyone else here find the Sheeda way more interesting than the Seven Soldiers? I almost want to see them win, though maybe they could spare Klarion and Zatana. I won't be spilling any tears for the Bulleteer, that's for sure.
I don't know, I've always had a soft spot for the armies that ride atop giant spiders and other bugs.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:45 / 24.10.06
Can I just say, before it's too late, that Mr Miracle is the traitor, and that Shining Knight, if memory serves, is going to be the one to die.

If Gervase doesn't come through with his promise that there will be a death, and a treachery, I'm never going to love him as much as I used to, again.

To put it bluntly, I will never again hang around outside his house in a vaguely threatening manner, because I may as well be stalking Robbie Williams, I fear.
 
  

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