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Comics and Academia

 
 
ginger
21:38 / 19.09.06
Word.

Was wondering if anyone around these parts has a professional interest in comics in an academic context. I’m currently engaged in research for a DPhil, recording the amusing squishy sounds you get when you drop huge amounts of continental theory on the poorly-upholstered head of a certain little-know Glaswegian comics writer, and it feels awful lonely. There’re a fair few people around working on ‘alternative’ comics, or taking socio-historical approaches, but the wanky philosophical end of the mainstream appears, at the moment, to be somewhat undercolonised.

I know a lot of undergrads attempt to write on comics at some point during their careers, and I’ve heard of a few MA dissertations on the subject, but beyond as soon as people go doctoral, they seem to loose all interest in gaily-coloured pictures of ladies with large secondary sexual characteristics.

Is anyone else sticking their postgrad bollocks in the comics-shaped draw, gazing directly into the eyes of fate and occasionally blinking to reveal the words ‘SLAM IT’ written on their eyelids in biro? Is anyone teaching such things to the little ones? If not, why not?

Apologies if this is all a beastly offence to etiquette and suchlike. I’ve been a good boy and read everything I can, but, alas, I’ve doubtless missed something about not mentioning figurative gonads in a first post. Just love me, and do as much of my work as you possibly can so I can spend more time learning how to spell.
 
 
sleazenation
21:44 / 19.09.06
So what is the focus of your studies? Superheroes in general or something more interesting?
 
 
black mask
21:48 / 19.09.06
Hi.

Tenuous link. It's history-oriented, but interesting, and someone else mentioned Savoy Books the other day which drew me back to this.

Link

Sorry, bit tired and pissed.
 
 
ginger
22:01 / 19.09.06
in broad outline, it's not really about superheros at all, per se, but they're bound to enter into it, given my personal focus.

i'm looking at the construction of authorship in comics, specifically those produced through collaboration between several people; writer, pencils, inks, and so on down to the tea lady and the bloke who polishes mr. morrison's brainpan. i'm coming out of 20th century authorship theory; it's remarkable that there's very little thought on the matter of collective authorship, even, and indee esepcially, in the 'collective' media like film and music. i'm trying to build a workable understanding of the status of each creative agency in relation to the final text, how that text's defined, and the effect that corporate authorship has on the transmission of that text to a reader.

i'm trying to set out the basic framework of mutliple authorship at the moment, by making messrs. bakhtin, derrida, barthes, foucalt and debord kick the screaming shite out of walter benjamin and the cahiers du cinema critical line, which is bloody by entertaning, though i'm not really getting near any actual comics texts. that said, this stuff's preparatory for the main act; because i'm not taking a wankarse strutural approach and just looking at comics as a cold product and media, the superhero stuff's going to become more significant as i work. the impact of the pre-existing tradition and continuity on an author's manipulation of a chracter's fascinating, as is the sense of visual history. i know that that sounds not unlike things covered in geoff klock's book, but harold bloom makes chunks fall out of my dick; when i finally get near that area of the work, you won't be able to see me for the sexy bits of continental theory.

put simply, i came to comics through, and have a mssive hard-on for, grant morrison, and his work makes extensive reference me to the things that're coming to form the theoretical core of my thesis. between situationism and bohm, i'm approaching a theory of the text that i can sleep with, and it makes sense to see what happens when it comes into contact with morrison comics; which is to say, most comics make me fall asleep, so i'm sticking with the cool stuff.

does that make some kind of sense? apologies, i've been in london for a few days, and my brain's still wandering round the barbican, looking for my socks.

it was this or three years watching films of beckett plays. whilst they contain more arse gags, samuel was a bit shit at fight scenes...
 
 
ginger
22:10 / 19.09.06
black mask, ta for that; i think i read that stuff last year, and it's fairly sympotmatic of the majority of comics academic work, in that it has quite a heavy historical and sociological bias and no-one seems to be having much fun. i know that's not stictly fair, but it's things like that that've got me wondering where all the other versions of me are. since i'm really cool and so on.

Imagetext brings hope, but the 'superman as metaphor for impotence in american salarymen of the 1950s' strand still seems to dominate.

scott mccloud gives you eye-cancer.
 
 
black mask
22:13 / 19.09.06
What's your tack re: situationist theory (Note to self: NOT Situationism)?

I mean, specific to comic books. The only thing that springs to mind is the detournement of bandes dessinee (sp? Fr? WTF?) and that would suggest a fairly dismissive (at best) view of comics from the situ POV. No?
 
 
ginger
22:39 / 19.09.06
before i put my foot in it, where do you make the distinction between situationism and situationist theory? i know people who'd write rude things about you on walls for saying that there's such a thing as situationist theory, and would only just retrain themselves if you replaced 'theory' with 'anaylsis'...

the detournement of romance comics and suchlike's the obvious place to start, but it merely serves to draw attention to an area of interest in the... theory. dismissiveness of the form's neither here nor there; it could be argued that debord was dismissive of film and that jorn was dismissive of painting, but ultimately, it doesn't make any difference. i doubt bakhtin was massively keen on the flash, but that doesn't make his thought any less relevant. it's not like i'm going to get rude letters from raoul vaneigem.

at the present moment, with all this 'theory' work, i'm looking primarily at the attack on alienated labour; the alienation of a writer from a comic by the neccesity of artistic proudction phases, and the alienation of the artists from something that's eventually advertsied as being primarily 'by' someone else. the sections of marx that deal with alienation in non-manual labour find a logical conclusion in situationist material.

at a later date, i'm going to have a good hard think about the application of detournement as a tool for examining the operation of writing within a tradition; each version of batman as the detourned revision of a previous version.

related to all this is the relation of the british comics writers of the last couple of decades to punk and the prositu trickledown you get there.

again, apologies, this is hardly lazer-sharp, but i've just realised that i've been 25 for forty minutes, and can't see the screen for tears and other fluids.
 
 
black mask
22:50 / 19.09.06
Ah, yes... the old 'theory' ploy.

"each version of batman as the detourned revision of a previous version."

I'm stunned DC have been able to get away with this for all these years. No-one noticed. Cuh...
 
 
ginger
23:01 / 19.09.06
the theory ploy means i now have a job that doesn't involve getting shat on by the long-term disabled four nights a week. i'm quite fond of the theory ploy. it also means i don't have to spend my life sitting round with the historicists, stroking my chin and repeatedly pointing out that comics writers were worried about nukes in the 80s.
 
 
black mask
23:10 / 19.09.06
I don't see how the collective endeavour to create a comic book can be seen as 'the attack on alienated labour', though. You know, if the writer can't draw... Are solo efforts the way forward?

Plus, harking back to my previous post, you do know that they redraw all the comics... right? They don't just keep photocopying a couple of dozen pages, pencilling in new stories and dialogue... Right?
 
 
ginger
23:16 / 19.09.06
you misunderstand me. collective endeavours aren't an attack on anything; however, they create more potential for alienation of labourer from product, in that they neccesarily involve more labourers.

solo efforts are a seperate issue. as i say, i'm looking quite specifically at team production.

and harking back to your previous post, i'm going to have to seriously ammend my thesis, since i was working on the assumption that all comics were relettered versions of a 1958 issue of 'bunty'.
 
 
sleazenation
21:40 / 20.09.06
If you want to play about with Walter Benjamin and his whole thing about the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction then you might want to check out the Ron Mann documentary Comicbook Confidential which contains the interesting quote from Art Spiegelman about wanting to create a work of art where the original was any one of 20,000 copies...

But yeah, in focusing on collaborative comics, I not convinced that you aren't focusing on one of the least interesting and least ideosyncratic aspects of the comics medium. As Sue Coe points out in the same documentary, some of the things that makes comics special is their potential to be the least compromized form of the mass medium - one person can write, draw, letter, copy and distribute their comic, even in a repressive environment. all you need is paper, pens and a photocopier.

It is far easier for a single creator to make a comic than for a single creator to create a film. And reproduction and distribution is generally cheaper too...

Outside of that, I'm wondering what sort of end product you are hoping to make - judging by your posts, a simple essay would seem to be desperately prosaic and boring - so, are you (and your mates) planning on getting out the scissors and glue and getting yourselves into making/detourning some comics?
 
 
black mask
22:22 / 20.09.06
I still don't buy your approach to detournement/serial characters. Such a reading of detournement is so broad as to render it meaningless... "each version of batman as the detourned revision of a previous version."

There was a 'point' to detournement 'theoretical' or otherwise [welcome to the wonderful world of the inverted comma]. Without wanting to sound 'redundant', although perhaps I 'must', it was putting agitprop sloganeering into the 'mouths' of 'characters' within an ephemeral mass medium. Their reality was as illusory as our own. Perhaps their revolution was, too(dot dot dot question mark).

A series of artists and writers rethinking, redrawing and reimagining a character, over a period of decades, years, months or even moments isn't detournement. Putting new words into the mouths of an old face doesn't cut it. No matter how radical the words or how hackneyed the piehole. Situation...ism has been shilled, hacked, hawked and fucked about more than enough, don't you think?

You'll be calling jogging 'derive' next.
 
 
ginger
23:39 / 20.09.06
sleazenation, i take your point about the purity of a single-authored comic; to a large extent, i think that the current tendency of academic writing to stick to the speigelman end of the medium results from the fact that there's no confusion as to who's doing what in that kind of text. single-authored comics're approached in much the same way as single-authored novels and so on. the reason i find multiply-authored comics interesting lies in the potential for the process and structure of production to distort the text intended by its originator. the academic approach to anything that’s the work of more than one set of hands is crippled by the cahier-du-cinema style policy of treating one of the many contributing artists as the boss, and the others as mindless manual labour, and it’s holding everyone back.

walter-wise, the speigelman quote crystallises one of the main difficulties here; when you’ve got a single author, it’s reasonable to talk of an original that can be reproduced, but when the text that reaches the reader is the result of the combined efforts of several authorial agencies, the waters get murky very quickly. it’s hard to work out where you find your original text; the script could be seen as the original, even though it’s a stage or two removed from the product.

as for getting out and producing a few comics, the reason i got into all of this, as opposed to doing similar work with film or something where there’s a little more existing literature to work with, is that i was having problems with the script-to-comic transition. i can’t draw for shite, so have always been dependant on artists. a particularly dreadful bit of artwork completely bollocksed something i’d written, and it got me thinking about how much it mattered, and why i cared. sadly, my pet university won’t accept the thesis in comic format. as for detourning comics, i don’t really see the point; would feel a little bit like political necrophelia.

black mask, as i say, i’ve not spent more than the two minutes it takes me to have a dump thinking about the detournement and character thing, nor claimed to hold any particular belief in the validity of such a thought; i’ll have a look at ‘the application of detournement as a tool for examining the operation of writing within a tradition’ [incidentally, for someone who doesn’t like inverted commas, you throw brackets round like shit in a monkeyhouse], since that kind of idea comes up frequently and explicitly enough in interviews with writers that it’d be lazy to ignore it. doesn’t mean i see it as a legitimate use of situ tactics, nor does it mean i particularly care. i intend to examine the misappropriation of situationist tactics by comics creators in the same way i intend to examine their frequently dubious borrowings from various scientific, religious and artistic movements; it’s useful, it informs my approach, but situationism’ll get the same fucking that everyone else gets. apologies if you have some kind of religious devotion to situ thought.

apologies, i’m sounding hostile; i’d just rather avoid rotting the thread out of all recognition and skipping off into a merry and irresolvable argument about situationism.

to return to the original point of the thread, do i take it that i’m the only one on here wasting time researching comics?
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
00:22 / 21.09.06
Actually, no, you're not the only one. I'm doing my graduate thesis on V for Vendetta from a perspective based on Deleuze's literary analysis, Barthes' course on "Preparation of the novel" and McCloud and Eisner as non-philosophical guides.

It's a theoretical essay, completely discarding previous commonplace theories applied to comics (Eco's and a couple of other guys who use a semiotic and semi-idiotic approach which does absolutely nothing to change the perception of comics as a minor genre instead of a complex medium)
 
 
ginger
20:10 / 21.09.06
prince, which department're you working in? some kind of literature setup? i ask because i'm coming across a fair few people who've been placed in a joint setup with a history of art dept, just wondering how widespread that is.
 
 
black mask
20:45 / 21.09.06
"doesn’t mean i see it as a legitimate use of situ tactics, nor does it mean i particularly care."

ginger. Oh, ginger, ginger, ginger... is this how you intend to go through life? Every time someone asks you a difficult question about something you've hastily stated? About every judgement call you haven't thought through? 'Oh, I don't care about that!' *flounce* 'Frankly, it's beneath me.' *rolleyes* 'I don't particularly care.' *sulk*

Is that the face you want to present to the world? A petulant face? A sulky face? ginger? Hmmm?

For the record, i couldn't give two fucks about about 'SiTuAtiOnIsM'. I was just thinking aloud about how you might seriously approach what sounded like poorly thought-through ideas. You did post here for the purposes of discussion and debate, right?
 
 
EvskiG
21:19 / 21.09.06
Before I ran screaming from academia, I studied political theory with a guy named Bertell Ollman.

If you want to focus on alienation, you might want to check out his classic book on the subject.
 
 
ginger
21:53 / 21.09.06
black mask, genuinely, i don't want to seem flouncey or arrogant; as you say, i made a hasty statement concerning something i intend to have a look at in the relatively distant future, in a thread where i wasn't seeking to discuss my thesis in any detail.

given the subject matter, and the number of dogmatic wee shites who lurk around every corner with their dick in one hand and a photo of guy debord in the other, i'm developin a tendency to skip away from anyone who looks like they might've been sucking off chris gray since 1972. the assumption that working with this stuff means i have a personal devotion to it is the bane of my existence, since every aging king mob fellow traveller tries to enforce a deadarse party line as soon as i open my mouth. i recognise that i'm messing about with things that some people hold out as articles of faith, but since there's no way they're ever going to be reconciled to what i'm doing without my moving to paris and digging up a road, it really is easier just to get out of that kind of thing as quickly as possible.

whilst i'm pissing and moaning about assumptions, i have to admit that your suit name had me wondering if you were a post-situ revenant, like the fifteen i have latched onto my arse at any given time. sorry for flouncing, but i hope you see why; and to be fair, i posted here not to discuss my thesis, but to see if there was anyone else out there doing work in the area.

my thesis is in a feotal stage, and i'm not going to be in a position to say anything intelligent beyond the basic structural work i've done so far for a while yet. that said, i stand by the intention to look at detournement as applied to character, since various writers make claims to be doing exactly that.

in short, sulky, petulant face keeps the burnt-out punk casualties away. it's probably also a reltively accurate representation of my actual cuntish character. and yet, see how i bend in the wind in search of your approval? love me and all my works.

Ev, i skimmed that a couple of years back; it's referred to a fair bit in wider literature. if i find myself going down a hardcore polsci track, i'll have another look, ta.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
17:29 / 22.09.06
ginger, I'm sorry but I didn't get what you're asking me... my tutor is a psychologist/institutional theorist, and I'm doing the thesis for my Social Communication degree (which is a relatively new career in Latin America and some parts of Europe, don't know if they have an equivalent in the States or Britain. Think of it as Mass Communications+a slash of continental philosophy+institutional/organizational theories). I'm from Argentina, just to clarify. We don't have majors and minors, that kinda stuff.
so, what was your question again?
 
 
ginger
18:25 / 22.09.06
prince, you've just answered it. i was wondering what your academic catagory was, if that makes sense; sounds like you're doing something admirably broad, compared to the blinkered degree courses we're offered here. i've always been a literature type, but have found myself required to find an art historian to supervise my thesis, jointly with an american lit dude. it's worked out quite well in the end, but i was wondering how other institutions cope.
 
 
sleazenation
13:57 / 24.09.06
Ginger -

I think you could well be setting yourself up for an awful lot of work. I don’t think an academic approach is necessarily synonymous with Cahiers-Du-Cinema approach. Secondly, if are attempting to worry the notion of an ‘empire of the auteur’ you are really going to have to look at every single aspect of collaboration/compromise in comics.

Looking at the interconnectedness of a collaborative work is necessarily going to be a lot of work. Each job will require separate and equal consideration. And not just each job in making the comic – the commercial pressures be they from sales, the editorial director, the divisional president and the overall owner all have a significant impact not just on what comics get made but what form those comics take. Each of these has an effect on the way in which the reader approaches and reacts to a creative work of art.

I also think you are wrong to dismiss McCloud as easily as you appear to do so up thread – he studiously avoids proclaiming any kind of orthodoxy as to how comics should or could be made and particularly in his latest book, Making Comics. You might not like his work, its style or its popularity, but it is difficult to dismiss effectively without first putting in the work in to engage with it.

Outside of that, I wish you luck with your thesis and would look forward to reading it.
 
 
ginger
16:54 / 24.09.06
with respect, setting myself up for a lot of work’s rather the point. this thing needs to keep me occupied for at least three years, and i’m hoping it’ll lead me on to other, related work on collaboration and authorship; it’s the starting point on a path of work i’ll never complete, but that’s academic work.

that said, i’m never going to be able to cover everything neccesary to a comprehensive study of the subject in a thesis-length work; as with any thesis, i’m going to have to be highly selective as to what i cover, and indicate areas i neglect or skimp on. my MA thesis ended up covering about a third of the material i intended it to cover, and i’ve already had to jettison planned parts of the DPhil one because i’d die before completing it. so yeah, it’s a lot of work, but that’s why it’s going to take years, not months. a year in, there’s little resemblance between the original proposal and what i’m turning out, but supervisorial opinion suggests that that’s perfectly healthy.

the problem of scope’s the main reason i’m focusing in around mr. morrison. it means i’ve got a built-in limit on the textual set i’m working with, and hopefully, it’ll narrow things down somewhat, means i both can and have to nail the theory to a limited number of texts.

regarding the cahier du cinema approach, one of the things that’s creating the most difficulty for me is that i think it’s a huge mound of horseshit. it’s politcally reactionary and based on a rather lzy pragmatic desire for the authorship of films to be as uncomplicated as possible. thankfully, the original cahiers authors freely accepted that auteurist criticism wasn’t based on a coherant theory; bazin’s ‘on the politique de auteurs’ underlines that. as soon as you turn the post-structuralist lights on, auteurist criticism begins to look quite extraordinarily weak.

i took my MA at Reading, in the film dept, and i think it’s fair to say that the faculty there includes a fair few hardcore auteurists; when i choked on the whole idea, they happily accepted that auteurism’s a school of thought that’s completely at odds to any number of others; it just happens to be the one that won out as the orthodoxy in film studies. the only reason i’m going anywhere near auteurism is that it illustrates the critical positions that post-structuralism arguably sought to bulldoze; more to the point, the similarities between film and comics production suggest that the theory applied to the one might be useful in the investigation of the other. if i’m going to borrow film theory to work on comics, i can’t do so without at least passing near auteurism. that’s not to say all film theory’s at odds with the attempt to find a model for multiple authorship: robert l. carringer has a lot of good stuff on collaboration.

you’re right, i do tend to dismiss scott mccloud too easily, and you’re dead right that, to an extent, i don’t like his work because of the style; the good points get hidden in the midst of the ‘how-to’ book atmosphere. i actually rather enjoy reading his books, especially that alan moore portrait in the new one, but there’re times when you wish he’d stop pissing about and just get to the point. i have to accept that the serious misgivings i have about his stuff result less from what he does, but more from the effects that his success in doing it have had on the comics academia ghetto.

mccloud provides very sound accounts of comics grammar and the systems within the text, but, as some says in the mccloud thread, he tends to place the visual aspects of comics in a superior position to the verbal; i know he admits himself that he’s visually orientated, and he’s often dealing with speigelman-type solo producers, but i feel he reflects an auteurist tendency in the field, in which the scriptwriter is the director or artists’s bitch. the fact that people tend to want to study single-author texts isn’t helped by the fact that mccloud’s the only show in town, and ; i was hoping ‘making comics’ might have more material about collaborative efforts, because mccloud’s influential enough to really open the field up. as you say, he’s scrupulously careful not to say anything to exclude areas he doesn’t cover; one day, he might engage with those areas, and we’ll all be much better off.

the more general problem derives entirely from his success; because his books’re the best and most popular studies of comics around, the few students i’ve taught have problems escapiong their gravity, and tend to just apply mccloud, in the same way that people get swallowed by the other –isms. the ‘image and narrative’ review here sums up the problem; mccloud’s too strong, and distorts comics studies, in much the same way that cahiers du cinema bent film studies out of shape.

i should’ve posted that in the mccloud thread, but i doubt anyone cares...

if you ever want something to lull you into a gentle coma, i’m happy to e-mail chapters out for constructive piss-taking as and when and if they appear.

verbose little shite, me.
 
 
ginger
16:54 / 24.09.06
apologies for the double post in order to apologise for the complete failure to spellcheck the above.
 
 
Ex
15:39 / 27.09.06
I've taught comics to MA students. I used a volume of Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For and Ted Naifeh and Tristan Crane's How Loathsome. One aspect of it was the difference between Bechdel starting out as a lesbian community piece in the 1980s and gradually needing to document/incorporate issues like bi-dykes and transgender stuff (and more), whereas How Loathsome goes in with both feet straight to 'queer' topics. It wasn't wholly sucessful - the student couldn't really get intot eh narrative of the Bechdel on one volume and found it hard to distinguish the characters enough to discuss it. And they all wanted to tell me how much their life was a fetish-fuelled cross-dressed drug-crazed rollercoaster ride, just like How Loathsome. Especially the ones who lived in Eastbourne.

I did meet a nice woman who was writing her PhD on Alan Moore; she was just at the start of it a couple of years ago, but I regret that I've lost her name. So one might keep an eye out for a book on the beardy chap in a couple of years.

I also have a piece in ImageText at the mo - PM me if you'd like to know which, I'd rather not put my name on the board.

I've used the McCloud often. I'm interested in any other critical approaches to comics - I'd like to write on them more. Particular on how serial comics often have no closure on the horizon, or incredibly long story arcs, and how that conditions how texts are read. Also on characters relentlessly returning from the dead.
 
 
ginger
17:40 / 27.09.06
iiinteresting. was the 'how loathsome' work part of a comics thing, or integrated into a wider queer / gender setup? would be interested to hear how you taught the comics texts differently; i'm considering doing the obvious and battering any poor sods who submit to my evil tutilage with both versions of 'city of glass' by way of a deep-end introduction, with a link to Proper Books for the less comics-literate kids.

the seriality issue's a biggy. i know there's a lot of useful work on such things from TV studies people, applied to soaps; whilst i'm currently devoid of books, i'd be amazed if johathan bignell at reading hasn't said something worthwhile. whoever it was tat wrote the BFI casebook on 'se7en' touches on the area; probably richard dyer, but i may well be wrong. whoever it is, they mention that they were working with someone doing a doctorate on seriality.

easbourne's probably marvellous for dirtyrudesex, but it's fucking dire when it comes to rollercoasters. brighton offers so much more, if you don't mind continually tripping over people making documentaries about interior design...
 
  
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