BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


A fashion for BMI

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
HCE
22:41 / 15.09.06
thanks to your special female reading skills

What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
 
 
Olulabelle
22:52 / 15.09.06
Susan, my femaleness was relevant in that for me you were coming across as someone who wanted to 'disprove' or at least make less legitimate the claims made by the protest groups. It's relevant to me as a female because the thin models in discussion are female. You as a male do not have the same viewpoint as me and that's why I defined mine.

So my reference to being female is relevant. Your piss taking remark isn't.
 
 
Smoothly
22:52 / 15.09.06
That it was Lula's ability to read that did it. That being female was irrelevant to what 'pressure group' and 'lobby' mean. It was irony - because reading isn't a special female skill. Sorry if that was unclear.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:56 / 15.09.06
It wasn't clear at all, and still isn't. It sounds like a get out of jail card to me.
 
 
Smoothly
22:58 / 15.09.06
Ah, cross-post.
Lula, then it was a confusing point in a sentence at which to bring that up. Again:

The words you have chosen are quite loaded terms and imply, at least to me as a female reader, that you do not think they have a legitimate cause for protest

Those terms imply - to me as a female - that you think x, y, z. Not I think you mean x, y, z, and as I woman this is particularly relevant to me because...
Can you see how I read this as being that as a woman, the words 'pressure group' and 'lobby' meant something different to you?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:07 / 15.09.06
This thread is the closest equivalent I have seen to automated email systems sending out of office emails to each other. Should we just lock it and try again?
 
 
Olulabelle
23:23 / 15.09.06
Well that would be convenient for the male contingent and that's what matters, so sure.
 
 
HCE
23:23 / 15.09.06
How about a lock and restart in Switchboard?
 
 
HCE
23:25 / 15.09.06
Olulabelle -- I crossposted with you, just fyi.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:35 / 15.09.06
Yes I think a restart in Switchboard is a good idea because this thread is finished for me.

I understand why Ignominious placed it here but it's gone a different route to the one proposed.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:52 / 15.09.06
I will disagree any move. This thread is perfectly retainable and it's a fashion thread. Now wait a jiminy second while I write a fucking post about high fashion.

Any information relevant to a Switchboard thread can be copied and pasted into a new space. Let's have a go at making this relevant to fashion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:58 / 15.09.06
Well that would be convenient for the male contingent and that's what matters, so sure.

Hi, Olulabelle. Please consider who your antagonists are and stop catching me in the arc of your anger by accusing me of somehow acting to advance the interests of the masculinist movement on Barbelith.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:08 / 16.09.06
Continue your discussions via PM please or I shall start accusing you all of masculine and feminine agenda and then where will we be? Hmmm?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:15 / 16.09.06
The problem with most of the argument in this thread is that it is entirely divorced from the original article, which addresses the fashion industry. You can't rot that discussion with an exchange on celebrity bodies, Victoria Beckham and other celebrities may wear designer labels and to an extent be fundamental to fashion as a commercial industry but for the most part these women are not fashion models.

Most of Susan's points are erroneous because they ignore the implicit answer that Olulabelle stated quite clearly, that plus size models are not used on the fashion week catwalk. There is no need to impose health restrictions when the issue simply does not come up.

Now onto the article proper:

The association agreed to use the BMI - a calculation based on height and weight - in response to local government pressure.


This whole issue is quite complicated because fashion is an industry that relys on the human body as a canvas for the clothes it carries. Thus placing restrictions relating to the BMI is complicated. In some ways it's a welcome infringement on big business, which it can be argued practises abuse for the purposes of commercialism. Fashion may be a form of art in some modes but that doesn't excuse it from the limitations of society, it's far too tied up in social interaction for that to be plausible. On the other hand Qalyn clearly stated that BMI is an inaccurate standard and that's perfectly true, there are individuals who fall outside of this measurement and are completely healthy. It's an odd imposition because it restricts people's careers on the basis of spurious evidence and the only way to gain accurate measurement is to monitor people's health/eating on an individual basis, that would require an independent body supported by the fashion industry.

Feminist argument can be employed here. Fashion models clearly are an unhealthy standard to hold the average female body to but that isn't specifically because they are thin. Issues of presentation are very central to the argument against the industry model: the maintenance employed in gaining that kind of physicality, the amount of money it costs to attain that kind of look is often overlooked in favour of discussions on body size.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:31 / 16.09.06
I've not really said anything about the article.

Perhaps we could change that, now?

To help out. As far as I can tell, the aim here is not to stigmatise the thin per se, but to discourage the presentation of women who are significantly underweight as an aspirational image for women who are not working in fashion. Since overweight women are not, pace Weaving's suspicions, currently being represented as an ideal of physical beauty, it seems something of a non-issue.

The question then being what exactly are the responsibilities and duties of the fashion industry. I'm personally prepared to believe that many of the models with low BMIs and size 6 bodies are genetically or biologically predisposed to being thin - although by no means all. Is it a restraint on the trade of these perfectly healthy but genetically tiny models? Is it further a restraint on the ability of the designers to show off their clothes to best advantage - which is, presumably, why very tall, thin models tend to be used on catwalks - because the clothes are displayed to their best advantage on tall, thin frames?

(Nina will be able to help me, but I've been told that this is not so much because these bodies are considered beautiful by designers as much as they provide the minimum distraction, in turns of adding the form of the model's body itself to the flow of the garments.)

Possibly we could draw comparisons with tobacco advertising - tobacco advertising is not permitted in many places to glamourise the act of smoking, on the grounds that it is an unhealthy practice and, while not illegal, it should nonetheless not be encouraged. Do thin models glamourise being thin, in a way likely to make women who do not have the body type or the resources (gym time, dietitians, specially prepared food) to become thin in a way that is healthy for them. Of course, you can't really smoke in a safe way - although one can say that the results of smoking are only really identifiable in retrospect - the same might apply to weighing 6 stone.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:18 / 16.09.06
I've been told that this is not so much because these bodies are considered beautiful by designers as much as they provide the minimum distraction

The vast majority of models are chosen for the proportion of their bodies rather than their physical beauty. Most fashion models are not particularly discernable, if you look at catwalk photos (try the Vogue site) you'll notice that the variation in body type is not huge (and they often have very specific faces because those are proportioned in a certain way that fits the average body type). When a high fashion designer makes clothes they fit them to a body type and then adjust them once the individual model has been chosen to display those clothes. That's why Kate Moss is such an unusual model, she's shorter than average and as such clothes have to be made more specifically for her. Models generally are between 5'9" and 6'1", they tend to be quite flat chested because that means the bust measurement doesn't have to be adjusted. Designers usually pick a certain type of model, on the small or large side, which is an infringement for those displaying at Madrid.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
07:27 / 16.09.06
There's another way of seeing this, which is about an attempt to change the kind of labours that models are forced to do in order to work or be 'seen'. Being thin isn't just a state of being for a model (or a celebrity, or an actor) -- it's not the case that only 'naturally' thin people are models. You have to work your body in various ways to remain 'fit', 'attractive', 'desirable'. You have to diet. You have to work out (but not too much, if you're female, because muscle bulk is 'unattractive' in a woman.) You have to take speed if your body won't lose weight, in order to not get hungry or whatever.

So it doesn't work to pose this issue as a case of discrimination against people who are 'naturally' thin. Or, put another way: can anyone cite me an example of models/movie stars being forced to get fat, or simply not have a job? (And I'm not talking about the actors who 'put on a few kilos' for a particular role, that doesn't happen often enough to count.) That would be the only way Susan could argue 'fatness' and 'thin-ness' are equivalent, here, and work in equivalent ways.

So, maybe there are some models who are actually happy about not having to lose the extra kilos before Fashion Week?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:23 / 16.09.06
There's another way of seeing this, which is about an attempt to change the kind of labours that models are forced to do in order to work or be 'seen'. Being thin isn't just a state of being for a model (or a celebrity, or an actor) -- it's not the case that only 'naturally' thin people are models. You have to work your body in various ways to remain 'fit', 'attractive', 'desirable'. You have to diet. You have to work out (but not too much, if you're female, because muscle bulk is 'unattractive' in a woman.) You have to take speed if your body won't lose weight, in order to not get hungry or whatever.

Absolutely - I think Nina and I both touched on this above, but more with a focus on the consumer of the images. Even the "naturally thin" models are still not stepping onto the catwalk in the shape that they would be if they worked 9-6 in offices and ate readymeals at home. They have to devote huge effort and resources to being not just thin but a particular kind of thin, and presumably the further away they are from "naturally" being thin, the further they have to go to achieve that particular form.

(And, of course, some biology is inarguable. Kate Moss is shorter than most catwalk models, but through some combination of management and timing negotiated a private peace with the fashion industry. Kathy Lloyd, for example, was shorter again, and had to go into glamour modeling - a discipline which has its own demands - exercise, surgery - to get the requisite form. You can't slim yourself taller - you can only _look_ taller by losing weight).

So, if you are then a woman looking at catwalk models, there's every possibility that you simply cannot do the things that would be necesary for you to be thin in that way while maintaining any sort of equivalency to the way you currently live life. That, I think, is a noteworthy issue.

And, as you say, if you _are_ a model, you're potentially still being given more leeway here as to your body type. On the other hand, if you "naturally" have a very low BMI (which, as Qalyn says, might not be an indicator of actual health), this might be an unfair restriction on your ability to practice your labour. Then again, we do impose slightly arbitrary regulations on people all the time, in the knowledge that some people might be excluded "unjustly" - a partially-sighted person may actually still be a better forklift driver than many fully-sighted people, but would still be excluded from the interview process.
 
 
alas
14:47 / 16.09.06
It's also true that some studies suggest that being "overweight" but not obese, by BMI standards, is actually possibly the healthiest place to be, on average.
We live longer, now, in the West than we did a few generations ago in part because we, in general, have access to plenty of calories.

Which is not the same, however, as living in a culture where we are mostly well-nourished and have equal access to healthy bodies and/or the appearance of being "healthy." Most of us in the West have a very messed up relationship to food and body image, partly because there are industries making lots of money selling us high-calorie processed food--and even sometimes receiving government subsidies to do so (unlike, say, brocolli growers, who in the US receive very little government subsidies)--and there are lots of companies making lots of money selling us ways to become even more sedentary (which also, I'm convinced, completely unscientifically, makes us think less--you have a chance to rethink if you get up and walk). And there are lots of industries making lots of money making us feel very bad about the bodies that are the predictable result of these eating/sitting lifestyles--and promising lots of expensive solutions for our problems.

Women's bodies, in general, have different ways of reacting to this world, are more prone to fat and certain kinds of fat, and are still pretty much defined by our bodies and shapes--pressured to be thin, to take up as little space as possible. Men have some pressures on their body image, and these are increasing, but they are by and large, less defined by their bodies/body size.

Anorexia/bulimia and obesity are, in some ways, two sides of the same coin--symptoms of bigger problems in our relationship to food and beauty.

Susan Weaving, your response was sexist, rooted in a male privilege you seem to be blind to.
 
 
Elettaria
15:58 / 18.09.06
I'm slightly surprised by any article that claims to know how to lower your risk of death, but yes, I've heard this before. A doctor friend of mine says you're much healthier to be a little overweight than a little underweight.

There's already discrimination in the model industry. If you're a "normal" or "healthy" weight, you're likely to be waved away. Women models are more likely to be around the average height for men than for women. The upper limit for relative weight is already there unofficially; putting in an official lower limit for relative weight might move the average relative weight of a model to closer to a "healthy" weight, although it would still be well under the average weight for a person. It would still end up as discrimination in favour of tall, thin models, it would just reduce it somewhat.

More food for thought: obesity-related illness may be more of a problem nationally than low-weight-related illness, but many people end up much heavier, not to mention miserable, due to the practice of dieting. I don't mean cutting out the junk food and eating more fruit and veg, I mean following short-term diets which are generally pretty unbalanced and which not only mess up your metabolism but encourage a guilt complex around eating, which in turn leads to bingeing. Somewhere around 90% of dieters put on more weight than they lose. Anorexia and bulimia aren't the only problems exacerbated by media pressure to be extremely thin.

Incidentally, if the fashion industry could stop expecting women to be the height of men and the shape of prepubescents, women such as myself, short and curvy but within the BMI "healthy" range and a perfectly "normal" shape, might actually be able to find clothes in the shops. I can go round a fairly large shopping centre and come out with nothing but socks - from the children's department, even though my shoe size is an adult one.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:32 / 18.09.06
I think this is getting a little confused so I'm going to say something that may be a little controversial.

The fashion industry is about clothes. This thread, the views being thrown around here, seem to me to be applying an unsual morality to fashion. There seems to be an expectation that it in some way has to nod to the notion of role models, which is very much to do with figures like Twiggy and the '80s supermodels but that isn't fashion. Those people have become celebrities in a very specific sense, figures like Stella Macartney have only confused this exchange between the worlds of fashion and celebrity more in the last ten years. At the very heart of this is something completely different, it's the notion of modelling as a profession. All of this ties into women's issues because modelling is seen primarily as female work, something that we could do without, particularly since men's fashion has gained steadily in popularity since the 1980's and the existence of GQ. Male models though are viewed very much through the lens of femininity, which says a hell of a lot about our social perceptions frankly and is very interesting in light of the discussion framed entirely around women in this thread. We fall to it as much as anyone else.


Women models are more likely to be around the average height for men than for women.

Yes they are because the fashion industry isn't about women, their actual shape or size, it's about clothes and clothes are more noticeable on tall, slender people. Clothes look better on models because they're human beings who are picked because they are regarded as the best possible clothes horse in human form.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:35 / 18.09.06
In addition I suspect that a size 6, 6' tall woman is very unlikely to find clothes in High Street shops.
 
 
Olulabelle
11:18 / 19.09.06
Yes they are because the fashion industry isn't about women, their actual shape or size, it's about clothes and clothes are more noticeable on tall, slender people.

That's very true, but a consequence or perhaps side effect of that is the presentation of beauty in the form of a 6ft clothes horse. The growth of the supermodel doesn't help, although they are 'just' the perfect specimens for a clothes horse they are presented as ideal women, the most perfect, the thing all women should strive for.

So although the industry isn't necessarily complicit in dictating how women should behave with regard to their body size, they are partly responsible for the fact that women feel the need to do so and so I think we do have to hold them to account. It's impossible to distance the weight of the women who are used to advertise the clothes from the clothing itself.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:44 / 19.09.06
In what way do you feel the fashion industry presents these women as such?
 
 
Elettaria
13:55 / 19.09.06
In addition I suspect that a size 6, 6' tall woman is very unlikely to find clothes in High Street shops.

Maybe not a size 6, they barely exist anyway, but a size 8 would probably be fine. I knew a woman who was 5'8, size 8 and small-bosomed. She found that most size 8s in high street stores fitted her beautifully; I find that most of them don't fit. I've encountered plenty of size 8 dresses where I hold the clothes hanger way over my head and the dress is still trailing on the ground. As far as I can tell, the smaller sizes are being designed for someone of at least average height, probably well over average height, when I'd imagine there is a certain correlation on average between dress size and height (there are probably more women wearing size 8 who are shorter but of more average weight than those who are taller than average and underweight according to the BMI).

modelling is seen primarily as female work, something that we could do without...Male models though are viewed very much through the lens of femininity

I agree on both counts, and I think our society still automatically presents women as objects to be viewed far more than it does with men. Laura Mulvey's famous 1975 article "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" comes to mind here. It is usual for women's clothing to be more form-fitting and revealing than men's, particularly in certain areas such as evening dress, and if men dress in more revealing ways they are often assumed to be gay, presenting themselves as an object for the male gaze as well as feminised. This assumption is definitely something we could do without, since it's generally used to back up homophobia.
 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
  
Add Your Reply