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Atlantis Rising?? Caribbean Marine Archeology

 
 
grant
12:35 / 26.11.01
> SOURCE: Akasico.com
> DATE: November 21, 2001
>
> MORE INFORMATION ON THE UNDERWATER RUINS
>
> In May 2001, the Reuters news agency reported on the sensational
> discovery of ancient ruins under the waters of the Caribbean.
>
> Oceanoagrepher Paulina Zelitsky can lay claim to the discovery: this
> former Soviet underwater expert devoted herself to locating secret
> submarine bases and is currently engaged in
civil engineering and
> topography work in the ocean bed. Exactly a year ago, Zelitsky achieved
> certain notoriety after having located the
remains of the USS Maine, the
> warship whose sinking unleashed the
Spanish-American War in 1898. The
> vessel was some five kilometers off Havana and at a depth of 1,000
> meters. Zelitsky's team made impressive
documentaries about the site.
>
> Only a few months ago, Zelitsky's team
reportedly found "a great
> underwater plateau with remains of what appear to be enormous
> architectural structures of human manufacture, partially covered with
> sand. From above, the shapes are reminiscent of pyramids, streets and
> buildings. As can be imagined, this news fired the imagination of
> believers in Atlantis.
>
> Today we know that aside from sonar traces, a video camera has been
> lowered to the archaeological site.
Unfortunately, the research is being
> carried out in utmost secrecy, and very little information is being
> released. In spite of the secrecy, what has been obtained is allegedly of
> great interest.
>
> It appears that the videotape is being analyzed by the Marine Archaeology
> and Antrhopology Center of the Cuban Academy of Sciences. The experts'
> work is centered around the inscriptions found on the stones, which were
> undoubtedly made by humans. It has been proven that the stones were cut
> and dressed to fit one another and form larger structures.
>
> Very little is known about the inscriptions, except that they are
> numerous and are found practically throughout the underwater site.
> Symbols and drawings of unknown significance have also been found.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
12:47 / 26.11.01
Cool but why the secrecy?
 
 
grant
12:55 / 26.11.01
Information on the original discovery earlier this year is available here.

It's worth noting that Bimini -- site of the famed Underwater Road and subject of an interesting Atlantis-related prophecy by Edgar Cayce (sorry, but he ALWAYS pops up in these things) -- is something like 200 miles north of Cuba. People have been rooting around there for years, digging up occasional difficult-to-explain ruins & artifacts.
 
 
grant
12:55 / 26.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Redcap's back.:
Cool but why the secrecy?


Fidel Castro?
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
13:00 / 26.11.01
But we've known about him for years.

Sorry.

It just seems so unfair. Is this in Cuban waters? Is this not important enough to share big time? Could they not benefit from research money from other countries? When will McDonalds be opening a branch in Atlantis?
 
 
Lionheart
12:47 / 27.11.01
UPDATE for all you people. It turns out it wasn't a city but sunlight reflecting off Venus... no. I'm kidding. actually the update is here...

http://www.earthfiles.com/earth303.htm

I also remember hearing on Art Bell , from the man/the myth/the legend himself, that he heard from I-don't-know-where that the spot where the city lies has always been covered by water. It was covered by water even before the Ice Age. So some smart person who looks at things from different angles emails him and says that maybe the city has always been underwater. You know, like in H.P. Lovecraft's "The Temple".

Oh, and a small, tiny quote from the update...

quote:The estimated sizes of these stones - they are roughly about two by five meters. Very large stones. That's about six feet by fifteen or sixteen feet, something like that.

That's the size of the monoliths they found. That's fucking HUGE. Though I don't know how big other monoliths are.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
13:52 / 27.11.01
Quote from Frank Joseph, Editor-In-Chief, "Ancient American" in the article above: quote:Some time this century, the greatest archaeological find in history is going to be made when identifiable remains of Atlantis are going to be found. And the beginnings of that began in 1968 when they found the Bimini road or wall or whatever they refer to it as. It's still highly controversial, but that place has been thoroughly established as artifactual.

Bang goes his credibility. Geologists who examined the Bimini “road” concluded that it is a rock formation, tessellated shale if I remember correctly, which is formed by thick sediment cracking into rectilinear blocks as it dries into stone. Identical formations are seen as far away as the Australian coast. On the other hand, the travel agencies and tourist scuba-diving companies near Bimini will tell you that it’s man-made.

The Redcap's Back: quote: Cool but why the secrecy?

Hopefully not for the same reason that Aaron Du Val made his “discoveries” in secret.
 
 
Lionheart
15:04 / 27.11.01
Uh.. Chuckling Duck: What does the editor's credibility have to do with anything? The article is an INTERVIEW.

And there is still mystery surrounding the Bimini "wall"...

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf004/sf004p02.htm

quote:One mystery is admitted, however, in this debunking article; and that is the unanswered question of how the Bimini rocks came to be submerged in 15 feet of water, when considerable evidence indicates that no such sea-level changes occurred in the last 2,200 years.
 
 
MJ-12
15:19 / 27.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Chuckling Duck:
Identical formations are seen as far away as the Australian coast.


That just means the Atlantean civilization was more far reaching than some thought.
 
 
Tamayyurt
16:20 / 27.11.01
YES! I always knew the "Atlantians" were Cuban.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
16:32 / 27.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
What does the editor's credibility have to do with anything? The article is an INTERVIEW.


Frank Joseph is one of the three people interviewed in the article. He’s presented as an archeological expert, and claims that engravings (that he’s never seen) might resemble Etruscan because the Etruscans were Atlantean refugees. Because he claims that the Bimini Road has been “been thoroughly established as artifactual (sic)”, I think we should take his other claims with a grain of salt.

quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
And there is still mystery surrounding the Bimini "wall"...


Sounds like a geological question, not an archeological mystery. 2,200 years is an eyeblink in geological time. I’ve picked up shells from ancient seabeds 10,000 feet above sea level in the Rockies; 15 feet in the Caribbean seems trivial.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
16:33 / 27.11.01
quote:Originally posted by MJ-12:
That just means the Atlantean civilization was more far reaching than some thought.


You have amused the Duck.
 
 
Mister Remington Finn
17:42 / 27.11.01
Can´t wait untill they find Chtulu...are the Stars aligned yet.....?
 
 
Enamon
20:17 / 27.11.01
Bimini Road, eh?

Here's an interesting link:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/travel/leisure/2000/ltl536.htm

Some highlights:
quote:In the 1970s, David Zink, an amateur geologist who was formerly an English professor at the U.S. Air Force Academy, took samples of the stones to a Houston psychic, who concluded they were part of fallen pillars from a sacred temple built around 28,000 B.C. The temple was built primarily by Atlanteans, Zink concluded, and their subcontractors were aliens from the star cluster Pleiades.

Heh. Funny.

and here's something pertaining to the controversy:

quote:"Most of the skeptics I have read are of the 'Atlantis is impossible' variety, and have never done any exploration in the area at all," says Doug Richards, a geologist who has carried out research and written papers for the Meridian Institute, a Virginia Beach, Va., organization that sponsors research into the connection between mind and body. "I think that most likely it is a natural formation, but neither side of the debate has done the work necessary to prove it one way or the other."

Richards says at least part of the Bimini Road may be man-made.

"For example, there are large stones balanced on top of smaller stones," he says. "Beachrock does not form that way naturally, so if it is beachrock, it appears to have been moved by humans. There is also a circle of stones that looks nothing like a natural beachrock formation."


and

quoteespite the commercialism and some over-the-edge beliefs, Keefe, a former Navy diver, says his experiences over 18 years in Bimini have changed his original skepticism.

"I believe there is some design to those stones," he says. "I don't believe they just ended up like that. There's spacing to it. There are right angles to it. My science teacher told me there are no right angles in nature. I don't make fun of anybody who goes out there anymore."


In other words it is wrong to think that Bimini Road is purely a natural formation or a purely artificial formation or both or whatever. If someone asked me what I thought it is I would have to say "I don't know."
 
 
Enamon
20:20 / 27.11.01
As for Edgar Cayce, I believe that some of his predictions may have come true but only those that concerned events before... oh let's say 1950. Didn't he predict a world war to occur 1999?

Ha ha I just thought of something - Edgar Cayce and the Sunshine Band! Ha ha
 
 
Gus
09:46 / 28.11.01
The Bimini road is, I believe, similar to the undersea rock formations near Okinawa, Japan, which have not been officially proven to be either natural or man-made as far as I know.

Also, consider talks of asteroid impacts and massive destruction in the Atlantis article in view of this. Although the dates don't exactly match up.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
13:37 / 28.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Enamon:
Bimini Road, eh?Here's an interesting link: www.usatoday.com/life/travel/leisure/2000


I can’t bring myself to accept USA Today’s travel and leisure guide as a source on a scientific question.

If the Bimini Road is natural, we would expect similar formations to be found in other parts of the world, which they are. We would expect mineral content to be continuous across fracture lines (that is, facing surfaces have similar trace elements) rather than discontinuous as it is in constructions like the pyramids, Hadrian’s Wall, Stonehenge and so on. Geologists report such continuity.

I suppose a road or wall could have been built to resemble a natural formation, or that similar formations could have been built all over the world. I suppose that stones could be laid next to stones that were next to them in a quarry. But why should we suppose that this is the case with the Bimini Road? What reason is there to think it is manmade?

The only evidence that the Bimini Road is manmade is that it sort of looks like a road or a wall. There’s a rock in New Mexico that looks a hell of a lot like a camel, but we don’t assume that an ancient seafaring Arab civilization carved it. We know that people see patterns everywhere in nature: animals in the clouds, rocky faces in the moon and on Mars, pontilist gods and monsters in the starry night. So doesn’t it seem likely that there would be at least one natural stone formation on the planet that would sort of look manmade?

It’s fun to speculate about the transportation of the Ascended Masters of Mu and the architectual techniques of ancient astronauts. But in the absence of evidence, it’s just speculation, not science.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
13:43 / 28.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Enamon:
As for Edgar Cayce, I believe that some of his predictions may have come true but only those that concerned events before... oh let's say 1950. Didn't he predict a world war to occur 1999?


I’m sure that all of Edgar Cayce’s prophecies can be (and have been) interpreted as matching actual events after they occurred.
 
 
grant
16:20 / 28.11.01
The Bimini thing was very specific - in 1968 or 69, the first relics of Atlantis will be found off the island of Bimini.

A group of Cayce fans/curious minds mounted an expedition, dug up a couple pots, and charted part of the Bimini Road. The pots may have come off a galleon, may not have, the road, well, see above. It's not a typical formation for the area, but then again, it doesn't have to be.

The Cayce thing in this respect is very accurate because it's (in part) self-fulfilling. Kind of fun, though. I'd like to see a lot more of the fun prophecies fulfill themselves....
 
 
cusm
17:59 / 29.11.01
One could always suppose the Atlantians were advanced enough to create natural rock... What if they had a big lava gun, eh? It'd be easy to make roads, that's for sure.
 
 
Tamayyurt
01:53 / 30.11.01
why isn't this on discover news or popular science?
 
 
Chuckling Duck
12:41 / 30.11.01
quote:Originally posted by impulsivelad:
why isn't this on discover news or popular science?


Perhaps because the research is being carried out "in upmost secrecy".
 
 
Gus
18:53 / 01.12.01
Might it be related to the fact that UNESCO has recently adopted the Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage?

Its goal is to classify any historically-important shipwreck or underwater structure over a hundred years old as part of the World Cultural Heritage and to forbid their indiscriminate commercial exploitation or the removal of artifacts witout prior scientific assesment. Information on findings must be shared with the international academic community. Treasure hunters are hopping mad about it.
 
 
Enamon
15:06 / 06.12.01
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011206/sc/cuba_discovery_dc_1.html
quote:Thursday December 6 11:13 AM ET
Explorers View 'Lost City' Ruins Under Caribbean
By Andrew Cawthorne

HAVANA (Reuters) - Explorers using a miniature submarine to probe the sea floor off the coast of Cuba said on Thursday they had confirmed the discovery of stone structures deep below the ocean surface that may have been built by an unknown human civilization thousands of years ago.

Researchers with a Canadian exploration company said they filmed over the summer ruins of a possible submerged ``lost city'' off the Guanahacabibes Peninsula on the Caribbean island's western tip. The researchers cautioned that they did not fully understand the nature of their find and planned to return in January for further analysis, the expedition leader said on Thursday.

The explorers said they believed the mysterious structures, discovered at the astounding depth of around 2,100 feet and laid out like an urban area, could have been built at least 6,000 years ago. That would be about 1,500 years earlier than the great Giza pyramids of Egypt.

``It's a really wonderful structure which looks like it could have been a large urban center,'' said Soviet-born Canadian ocean engineer Paulina Zelitsky, from British Columbia-based Advanced Digital Communications (ADC).

``However, it would be totally irresponsible to say what it was before we have evidence,'' Zelitsky told Reuters.

Zelitsky said the structures may have been built by unknown people when the current sea-floor actually was above the surface. She said volcanic activity may explain how the site ended up at great depths below the Caribbean Sea.

In July 2000, ADC researchers using sophisticated side-scan sonar equipment identified a large underwater plateau with clear images of symmetrically organized stone structures that looked like an urban development partly covered by sand. From above, the shapes resembled pyramids, roads and buildings, they said.

``ULISES'' ASSISTS UNDERWATER ODYSSEY

This past July, ADC researchers, along with the firm's Cuban partner and experts from the Cuban Academy of Sciences, returned to the site in their ship ``Ulises.'' They said they sent a miniature, unmanned submarine called a Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) down to film parts of the 7.7-square-mile area.

Those images confirmed the presence of huge, smooth, cut granite-like blocks in perpendicular and circular formations, some in pyramid shapes, the researchers said. Most of the blocks, measuring between about 6.5 and 16 feet in length, were exposed, some stacked one on another, the researchers said.

Others were covered in sediment and the fine, white sand that characterizes the area, the researchers said.

The intriguing discovery provided evidence that Cuba at one time was joined to mainland Latin America via a strip of land from the Yucatan Peninsula, the researchers said.

``There are many new hypotheses about land movement and colonialization, and what we are seeing here should provide very interesting new information,'' Zelitsky said.

ADC's deep-water equipment includes a satellite-integrated ocean bottom positioning system, high-precision side-scan double-frequency sonar, and the ROV. The company currently is commissioning what it calls the world's first custom-designed ocean excavator for marine archeology to begin work both at the Guanahacabibes site and at ship wrecks.

ADC is the deepest operator among four foreign firms working in joint venture with President Fidel Castro (news - web sites)'s government to explore Cuban waters containing hundreds of treasure-laden ships from the colonial era.

The Canadian company already has discovered several historic sunken Spanish ships.

In an earlier high-profile find, ADC was testing equipment in late 2000 off Havana Bay when it spotted the century-old wreck of the American battleship USS Maine. The ship had not been located since it blew up mysteriously in 1898, killing 260 American sailors and igniting the Spanish-American War.

The rush of interest in Cuba's seas in recent years is due in part to the Castro government's recognition that it does not have the money or technology to carry out systematic exploration by itself, although it does have excellent divers.

American companies are prohibited from operating in Cuba by the long-running U.S. embargo on the Communist-run island.
 
 
grant
12:07 / 18.12.01
This latest translated from the Spanish language edition of the Miami Herald, El Nuevo:
quote:SOURCE: El Nuevo Herald
DATE: Sunday, December 16, 2001


Sunken City Resurrects Atlantis Myth
B elieve to have existed 6,000 years ago in Western Cuba.
JULIO CESAR RIVAS / EFE
TORONTO, Canada

The discovery of what appear to be the remains of a city off the Cuban coast by a group of Canadian researchers has fired the imaginations of many who have begun dreaming that fabled Atlantis could have been a reality.

Following a series of explorations using an underwater robot, the couple formed by Russo-Canadian researcher Paulina Zelitsky and Canadian Paul Weinzweig--together with the former's son, Ernesto Tapanés, a Cuban national -- believes that the structures form part of a city erected over six thousand years ago on the slopes of a volcano.

This information, based on images taken by the underwater robot and by a modern sonar system, places the construction of the Cuban city fifteen centuries earlier than the building of the Gizeh pyramid in Egypt. While the researchers have still not obtained any physical evidence to date the remains, the possibility that a lost civilization had built highly specialized buildings in such a distant age seems too enticing to restrain the imagination.

One of the hypotheses suggested in the past--and which could be confirmed with this discovery--is that Cuba was linked to the Yucatan Peninsula by a land bridge which sank into the Caribbean due to volcanic activity. To others, the notion of a civilization submerged under the Caribbean brings to mind the stories of the Greek philosopher Plato concerning lost Atlantis.

Zelitsky told the Canadian press that the megaliths located both by sonar and the underwater robot are of "a type similar to the one found at Stonehenge [Great Britain] or on Easter Island. Images taken with sonar and converted into photographs have been shown to U.S. and Cuban scientists who belive that pyramids, streets and buildings can be discerned.

An antrhopologist with the Cuban Academy of Sciences consulted by the Canadian couple has pointed out that some of the images contain "signs and inscriptions" and that the shapes are reminiscent of the pyramidal designs of the Mayan or Aztec cultures.

Zelitsky and Weinzweig, while currently residing in Cuba, are the owners of British Columbia-based Advanced Digital Communications (ADC), which has specialized in locating underwater treasrue in the Caribbean.

ADC has participated in the search for old Spanish galleons lost in Cuban waters and which could contain great riches.

The team has scheduled another venture in January in the Guanahacabibes Peninsula area, where the archaeological remains were located. In the summer of 2002, they plan to use an underwater excavator to explore the find.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
18:39 / 18.12.01
Less sensational accounts:

Frank Muller-Karger, Ph.D., Caribbean expert and Professor of Oceanography, College of Marine Science, University of South Florida, St. Petersburg, Florida:

"[R]ight now, all you can do is speculate and I would not want to just say that these are manmade objects. I have no clue what they really are."

"[I]t could be a very unique geological formation. We just don't know. Until we go there and take a very close look, all it will be is speculation and I would hope that nobody - it's very
romantic to think, 'Oh, a lost civilization and ruins and all.' And we all would like to see something like that. But I don't think that it's the right thing to do without actually going there. I think it's great they are actually going to go there and take a closer look. Because just from a geological point of view, it would be very interesting also." http://www.earthfiles.com/earth249.htm

Martin Dean, director of one of the world's leading marine archaeological institutions, the University of St Andrews' Archaeological Diving Unit, said: "The world's seas and oceans are full of underwater limestone, basalt and other natural geological formations, some of them covering many square miles, which are mistakenly interpreted as sunken cities with monotonous regularity."
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=109015
 
 
grant
16:59 / 19.12.01
Yeah, I've heard that deep water geology (around 2,000 feet) is pretty well known for geometrically regular formations.

What might also be interesting, if it pans out, is if this isn't a city on a land bridge to the Yucatan but represents the rim of the crater from the dinosaur-killing asteroid impact which formed the Yucatan and the Gulf of Mexico lo those millions of years ago.
 
 
grant
12:04 / 20.12.01
Something similar is going on off the coast of Japan right now.

Check the link for photos.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:35 / 18.01.02
Heard an item on the radio about something very like this, but in India - ocean surveyors found a large anomaly, regular in structure, under 120 feet of water. It is about two miles by five. They have recovered several hundred manmade artefacts from the site and carbon dating has placed these at about 9,500 BC. Given that this is the top layer of the site, there are likely to be remains going back for some millennia before that. The site would have been inundated during floods after the last Ice Age (floods which are now thought to have given rise to the many 'flood myths' found around the world).

The chap on the radio (Radio 4, Today programme) said that much of the best land would have been flooded at the time - an area corresponding to the continents of South America and North America up to the Canadian border...
 
 
cusm
14:49 / 18.01.02
More of that one here.

[ 18-01-2002: Message edited by: cusm ]
 
 
grant
11:43 / 01.04.02
Here's a new update:

» CARIBBEAN SUNKEN CITY GAINS CREDIBILITY

» photo: Paulina Zelitsky


(The Electric Warrior) - What are believed to be the sunken ruins of an ancient lost city gained support from one of Cuba's top geologists, when he told an international conference in Havana that there is no obvious natural explanation for the mysterious underwater formations.

Paulina Zelitsky, the Russo-Canadian oceanographer who lay claim to the discovery in May 2001, says she has never seen natural structures shaped with such intelligent planning and symmetry: "From the first moment I suspected they were not natural formations."

Zelitsky's company Advanced Digital Communications has been conducting research expeditions in utmost secrecy.

Manuel Iturralde of the National Museum of Natural History in Old Havana viewed the site for a week, and confirmed descriptions of shapes that are reminiscent of pyramids and streets, when seen from above.

Zelitsky reportedly has an agreement with the National Geographic Society for exclusive magazine coverage. ADC plans further robotic exploration of the megalithic structures, which she believes may have been built 6,000 years ago, dating them 1500 years older than Egyptian pyramids in Giza.

ADC may have already discovered signs of life, such as engravings or artifacts. Iturralde cautioned that it was still to early to say the structures are definitely man-made.

Scott Corales of the Institute of Hispanic Ufology provided an English translation of the Reuters coverage in Havana.


So... it's pretty clear Zelitzky's got the ol' bias going, looking for Atlantis rather than looking to see what's out there, but it's interesting that she's got other scientists to hop on the bandwagon.
Cautiously, of course.

I'd like to hear someone else who's seen the site comment on it. Whatever it is.

(That is, before the giant black blob oozes over it from Florida Bay, releasing the dark lord Cthulhu when the stars are right.)
 
 
grant
11:49 / 01.04.02
And here's another, related article.

Excerpts:
Manuel Iturralde, one of Cuba's top geologists, plans to tell an international conference of geophysicists in Havana on Friday that there is no geological explanation for the megalithic stone formations found in about 700 metres of water some four kilometres off the western tip of Cuba.

Interviewed at his office Tuesday at the National Museum of Natural History in Old Havana, Iturralde said it is still too early to say definitively that the structures are man-made.

But he is eager to gather samples from the site in April and begin solving a mystery has ignited much curiosity and debate, in Cuba and abroad, since it was first announced last December.



This article also says Zelitzky was initially searching for sunken galleons - a treasure hunter, in other words.

Her data, collected through sonar scans and videotapes of the site taken from an unmanned vehicle, show symmetrically arranged formations. Their white colour suggests they are made from cut, granite-like stone rather than naturally formed limestone, which is grey or black when oxidized, according to her team.

The megalithic formations -- called Mega for short -- occupy an area of about 20 square kilometres. Zelitsky suggests they might be the remains from a series of rooms connected by large corridors. She wonders whether they were part of a temple-like building used for astronomical purposes about 8,000 years ago.

Iturralde cautioned that more studies are needed to determine whether the formations are indeed the ruins of a sunken city. But after spending a week in mid-March mapping the site from the research ship Ulises, Iturralde said he found physical evidence of "significantly strong seismic activity ... that has not been previously recorded."


and

Advanced Digital Communications has been struggling to be taken seriously by the scientific community, said Paul Weinzweig, Zelitsky's husband and business partner.

Scientists are hesitant to think seriously about the discovery because it brings up too many questions about Atlantis, the lost underwater civilization that has ignited popular imagination for centuries.

"That's why everybody's scandalized. But there's too much baggage around this and we make no reference to Atlantis," he said in an interview last week from their oceanfront home just outside Havana.

"Cuba is the world's richest underwater cemetery."
 
 
cusm
20:10 / 14.10.02
Looks like this is getting some press again:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3507-2002Oct9.html
 
  
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