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Deleting posts

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:36 / 04.09.06
Elsewhere, Falconator said:

standard practice is to copy and paste the posts and PM them to their originators

It is? I have never before now been made conscious of this; can you show me where this is stated?


I'm quite tired, and probably leaving Barbelith again in the not too distant at this rate, so could moderators just confirm that they have been aware that if you are going to move posts for deletion without warning the person whose post you are about to delete, you post the content to them, unless that content violates one of our core -isms?

We really need some kind of basic training for moderators around here to sort this sort of thing out.
 
 
Ganesh
00:43 / 04.09.06
It appears to be good sense, and I distantly recall discussions of this (during my period of not being a moderator, I think, so it's possible that if it was spelled out somewhere, I paid less attention than I should've done) but no, I haven't specifically been "made conscious" of this in an explicit sense. I don't think I've ever moved or agreed to delete posts in these circumstances (essentially against the will of the poster), so I'm doubly fuzzy on there being a specific procedure.

As I say, though, it makes intuitive sense not to delete anything without being sure that either the poster's okay with that or the content is saved somewhere. It occurred to me, shortly after the mod request, that I ought to have started a Policy thread and cut & pasted there. It didn't immediately occur to me to copy the posts to the posters in question.

So, uh, a qualified no. Sorry if this is making you feel tired, Haus.
 
 
Char Aina
00:58 / 04.09.06
it's something i would do, but not something i recall as being stated policy.

i dont think i was given any guidance as a new moderator.
when i specifically asked for it i was given some pointers, but certainly never anything as specific as when to inform poeple of descisions via PM.
 
 
Smoothly
09:19 / 04.09.06
Personally, I think it's just good sense to keep a temporary copy of deleted posts somewhere (I tend to paste a copy into Notepad – even if they’re just duplicate posts - just in case there’s a balls up), but I don’t think I’ve ever PMed a poster with the content of their deleted post.
But then I hardly ever move posts for deletion unless they’re duplicates, because I don’t moderate any forums where offtopica is a real problem. If I did move a substantial post for deletion – assuming it was neither spam nor Knodge – I’d probably PM the poster to let them know, and paste in the content while I was at it.
But I'm a hoarder. Throwing stuff away goes against my nature, as the 11,000 emails in my inbox testify.
 
 
Shrug
09:38 / 04.09.06
I kind of thought it to be standard policy for some reason too.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:48 / 04.09.06
I think it came up around the time of whoever it was that got kicked off before Shadowsax, the user who had serious homophobia issues? I don't remember it being explicitly stated as policy but was considered good practice. Since then the only posts I've ever deleted have been doubles so it's not been an issue.
 
 
Smoothly
09:53 / 04.09.06
Well, Barbelith standard policy is a bit like the British Constitution, isn’t it. It’s there, but it’s diffuse and distributed across consensuses reached in hundreds of Policy threads. There’s no comprehensive list of Moderator procedures that I’m aware of.
For instance, I thought it was standard policy that text isn’t moderated on grounds of taste, but however often we have the argument and seem to reach an agreement, it continues to happen.
There's a convention that moderators act according to their own conscience, and distribution is relied upon to check and balance. But that doesn't seem to work, and I wonder if we should make the rules of engagement more explicit, and codify the procedures.
 
 
Dead Megatron
09:53 / 04.09.06
I though Shadowsax had mysoginy problems. Did I miss something?
 
 
Smoothly
09:57 / 04.09.06
Before ShadowSax. I think he might be talking about Hawksmoor.
 
 
Dead Megatron
10:16 / 04.09.06
oh, yeah, I misread the post. Apologies
 
 
Smoothly
10:18 / 04.09.06
Since then the only posts I've ever deleted have been doubles so it's not been an issue.

With respect, Flowers, that’s not strictly true, is it? And it has been an issue. Did you send Sauron a copy of the Stumpfucking thread at this point?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:05 / 04.09.06
The same 'qualified no' as 'nesh, really. I try to do it, or keep a copy of the text, as often as I remember because it seems to be good form, but I'm not aware of it being board-wide policy.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:10 / 04.09.06
SW: A thread lock and delete doesn't obliterate the text like a delete post, it just ghosts the thread.
 
 
Smoothly
12:11 / 04.09.06
That’s true, MC, but unless you’ve taken a note of the thread number, it’s as good as deleted (isn't it?). Deleted posts still exist on the database.
My point was more that there are various things that some mods believe to be ‘standard policy’ but others don’t.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
12:23 / 04.09.06
That being the case, and with current issues in mind, there is evidently a demand to draw up and enact a single set of standard procedures which all moderators will follow. Disection of the minutia of moderation history really only puts off the inevitable.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:13 / 04.09.06
SW: You're right, but I was talking about deleting specific posts, if you want to talk about moderation duties all together then obviously I've also fixed HTML, resized images, amended thread titles and summarys and so on.

And Mordant is right, the wonderfully crap Barbelith search function can still find deleted threads and people can still post to them (which I why I fuss so about locking threads before they are deleted) but I think you need to know the specific number of an individual deleted post to see it again.
 
 
Smoothly
13:38 / 04.09.06
That’s a good point, Flowers.
I wasn’t talking about all moderation duties, just the relatively serious subset that is deletions. But you’re right, arguably thread deletions are less onerous than post deletions, because deleted threads are easier to re-find than deleted posts. I think I conflate those actions a little, and by extension I think I agonise too much about thread deletions. We perhaps shouldn’t talk about deleting threads, and refer to it as ‘ghosting’ them instead.
My bad.
 
 
The Falcon
14:04 / 04.09.06
Collating some stuff on the topic:

Tom, in Moderating the Temple:

"Then there's the direct intervention stuff - delete posts / delete threads kind of moderation. In my opinion there are a number of occasions in which you should feel prepared to use these things, remembering of course that you have other moderators precisely to reign you in if you go too far.

...

You have to decide whether you need to delete people who are radically off-topic, remembering that it is your job to do the boring, slightly intrusive work that keeps the board feeling useful for other people."

From Possible Trolling:

Flowers: "Well, I'm quite happy to delete any posts that seem content free in any of the fora I moderate if other moderators are doing the same..."

Flyboy: "I've only been moving to delete the clearly obnoxious or entirely tangential posts by him, not everything he's posted."

Stoat: "My personal policy (as a mod, rather than as a poster) is, like Flyboy's, to delete 'em when they're bollocks in and of themselves"

Susan Weaving in Taste & Decency:

"The protocol for how harassingly offensive content is dealt with is reasonably clear (lock, delete, potentially ban the offender), but the border between what is offensive and what is distasteful is not, it seems to me, a clear one. "

grant, in Moderation Requests:

"I'm beginning to suspect the editorial delete is being underused, even though it's one thing that's built into the software & distributed system. Is it because too many delete requests are being vetoed? Or a feeling that delete requests would be vetoed?"

Weaving, again in Mod Requests: "If we don't want it on the board, don't we just delete it (it'll still be on the database if there is a legal issue)."

I see no mention anywhere of informing deletees here, but I may have missed something.
 
 
Smoothly
14:46 / 04.09.06
The only example I can find of this expectation being made explicit is here. Haus suggests it, but it’s not exactly unequivocal.
Which I strange, because I’m sure this has been discussed as a procedure.
 
 
grant
15:00 / 05.09.06
I'm with Ganesh (I remember it being discussed, but no consensus) -- and I tend to whip through duplicate-deletions pretty quickly. I don't think of them the same way as off-topic deletions.
 
 
Tom Coates
21:45 / 06.09.06
So the older convention was that deletions would be so rare and weird an occurrence as to be worthy of comment and discussion, unless they were groundskeeping stuff (ie. deleting duplicates). I tend to believe that this is one of the reasons we have the distributed moderation functions in place - so that if you really think a post should be deleted, the other moderators get a chance to spot that you're trying to delete something and have a look at it and throw up their hands in horror if they think it's a terrible terrible mistake or that you should talk about it more and if so then veto it and say so in PM or in public.

It's conceivable that moderators don't really look at the jobs in front of them very much and as a result are rubber-stamping decisions made by people around the board, in which case then clearly that's a bad thing. And we need to do something about it.

My considered opinion is that no, it is not necessary to post or PM the person concerned if you wish to delete one of their posts. It's your responsibility as moderators to work out the best way to do your higher level job - ie. to keep the board operating effectively and with as little strife as possible. One of the things you might choose to do under those circumstances is PM someone of sane mind and mention that you were thinking of deleting their post or proposing to do so (because for example the post was libellous and likely to get the poster and me in trouble). On the other hand, with other people (ongoing trolls) that might cause more trouble than it solves and slow up a process that needs to be fast. He-who-shall-not-be-named gets his posts deleted without a moment's thought, as far as i'm concerned.

Basically, it's up to the first moderator to make a judgement, and then subsequent moderators to check that judgement and see if they agree. If they do not there are then several opportunities for them to reopen the issue more widely. That seems to me to be sufficient.

One thing that we could do, if people would like, is make the deletion of threads and the deletion of posts require more positive votes from moderators. This would mean a slower deletion process and more chance that the vote would fail (it would still only take one vote for a veto to occur) but it would mean more accountability, more oversight and more chance that moderator decisions would be appropriately scrutinised.

At the moment a post deletion requires a proposal and two positive votes to go through, a topic deletion three (I believe). I could up that to three/four or even four/five if people think that's a good idea. We might need to check present moderators though to make sure that's practical.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:11 / 07.09.06
Any thoughts? Or did I kill the discussion stone dead?
 
 
Quantum
16:24 / 07.09.06
I check the 'reference' button for deletions, to see the context and make sure I actually agree when I hit the 'agree' buton, but they are mostly self-editing requests rather than mod thread surgery. If we all remember do that (hopefully we all intend to) I don't think you'd need to increase the threshold number of their votes- it can take a while to go through in the slower fora anyway.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:30 / 07.09.06
It's not a solution that's going to be possible here any time soon, I know, but on some other boards I'm a member of there's a forum where deleted posts go to die - the 'delete' action is, I presume, tied in with a behind-the-scenes 'move' action. Only staff/moderators can see the bin forum, so the shit doesn't get to stink the board out for other users but it's still present if anybody needs to access it or has questions about its content.

Actually, that might be possible here. You can create new fora, Tom, yeah? And I'd guess you can invisibly tie a 'delete' in with a 'move to forum X'.

It's conceivable that moderators don't really look at the jobs in front of them very much and as a result are rubber-stamping decisions made by people around the board, in which case then clearly that's a bad thing. And we need to do something about it.

It's not just conceivable. It's happening. I've seen evidence of it a number of times, when a moderation request is clearly a mistake yet has managed to gain votes in favour.
 
 
grant
16:47 / 07.09.06
Would it take this thread hopelessly off-topic to ask for a discussion of the one-vote veto?
 
 
Smoothly
19:57 / 07.09.06
We did have a discussion going about the one-vote veto, along with the issue of the number of votes vs. the number of moderators more generally. I think it was in the Moderation Requests thread. But I don't see why we shouldn't talk about it here, since it's come up.

Personally, I'd support a move to increase the number of votes required to ratify a post deletion. I also wonder if we can differentiate between actions proposed by the poster, and actions initiated by a moderator. By and large, it's the post deletions that aren't sanctioned by the person who made the post that cause the arguments, isn't it? Is it technically possible to discriminate between the two? Could we just raise the number of votes needed for *unsolicited* post deletions (keeping the run-of-the-mill, voluntary, poster-initiated ones for duplicates etc, at a lower threshold for speed and ease)?

And I don't think this is just about guarding against mods not paying attention. For me, it's also about being more confident that judgement calls are likely to be representative of the majority view. The existing voting requires too small a sample, IMHO.
 
  
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