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Which came first the shaman or the mushroom ?

 
 
33
21:14 / 25.08.06
?

It gets more interesting when you hear Mckennas theroies of fungi originating as spores from outer space or that some plants were reputedly zapped by visiting ETs..

arrr
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
04:21 / 26.08.06
Humans seem to be capable of religion without drugs or their secondary influence. Also, I wouldn't exactly say religion is also known as shamanism...
 
 
33
16:21 / 26.08.06
shamanism predates religion and everything else as far as I am aware..
 
 
33
16:23 / 26.08.06
besides you never answered my question , I mever asked if they were capable - obviously they are , but I am asking where the whole concept came from and if it started through use of plants rather than something self learned i.e. without assistance
 
 
BigD
13:12 / 27.08.06
Well, Shamanism originates from Siberia and Siberian shamans do not use drugs.
If I'm not wrong very few North American shamans use drugs either, and it's basically mostly Amazonian shamanism which uses psychoactive plants widely and it's somewhat a later form of shamanism.
I hope this answer your questions.

As anything related to shamanism, I advise you to read Mirca Eliade's writings, he will answer this question in a better way than me.
 
 
Axolotl
17:16 / 27.08.06
I don't think shamanism itself originates from Siberia, though the word itself does.
As used today the term shamanism lumps together huge amounts of differing religous practices, spread out over both time and place and I'd therefore argue that to talk about a place of origin is really meaningless.
As for whether shamanistic religions developed before or after the use of entheogens I don't think you're ever going to be able to prove it one way or the other. Some archaeologists are fairly certain that some neolithic religous practices involved altered states, but the use of entheogens to achieve them is more controversial.
 
 
33
18:25 / 27.08.06
Siberian shamans do not use drugs.

Your joking right,you never heard of Aminta Muscaria ?
 
 
captain piss
19:55 / 27.08.06
Yeah, I remember reading an interview with mckenna eons ago (the early 90s) where he said something about how psilocybin is the only 4-substituted indole on this planet. Such a unique molecular structure must surely originate from elsewhere.

Mckenna always seemed like he was incredibly well-read about scientific matters. It would be interesting to read a come-back article from chemistry PhDs and the like explaining why that might be a load of bollocks.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
23:30 / 27.08.06
shamanism predates religion and everything else as far as I am aware..

True, but I wouldn’t place every religion in the category of shamanism; the practices are too varied and changed throughout the years and cultures.

As for the question:
When you look at the primate and compare the skeletal structure to other mammals you’ll see that the primate has an extremely wide range of senses in addition to the position of the eyes which allow the primate to focus on a wider array of objects. So it’d seem more probable to say that religion came about with the new range of emotions that came along with the sensations they were able to experience, awe and wonder. Of course where that ability for awe and wonder originated from is up for debate

But I am intrigued by the mushroom zapping ETs. Sounds like fun.
 
 
EmberLeo
03:19 / 28.08.06
This is the kind of question that makes me ask what definition of "religion" or "shamanism" is being used.

And are we counting Alcohol as a naturally-occurring drug as well? Because that is definitely a Mystery common to many old religions...

--Ember--
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
04:41 / 28.08.06
quick note to EmberLeo: signing your posts is generally frowned upon here at barbelith. We know who you are, we can just look to the left of your post. Not trying to be snarky or anything.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
11:37 / 28.08.06
This is the kind of question that makes me ask what definition of "religion" or "shamanism" is being used.

Aye, it's tough to define the two in the first place. I'm reading The Heathens by William Howells at the moment and basically Howells says that until we can define the boundries of imagination we cannot possibly define religion.

Which brings me to another point. Mushrooms or drugs in general may have had a bit to do with some cultures religion and shamanic systems, but the human mind should not be underestimate. We have an enourmous power of imagination and at one point many years ago I'm sure some cave dwelling european looked up at the moon and said "Oh gee that looks like a face! It must be something!"
 
 
Proinsias
16:40 / 28.08.06
From Nature:

The Earth could be scattering the seeds of life throughout our Galaxy. Microbes could ride on specks of dust, powered by the Sun's rays, says William Napier, an astronomer at the Armagh Observatory in Northern Ireland.

A grain less than a tenth of a millimetre across would still be capable of carrying microscopic life, says Napier. And the pressure of sunlight can quickly blow grains this small out of the solar system. The same force might one day propel spacecraft through the cosmos.

Such a grain could travel about six light years from Earth in 70,000 years - far enough to reach other stars. We could be surrounded by a huge 'biodisk' of frozen organisms floating on grains of rock, says Napier, all of which can wander in and out of our solar system quite easily. "The solar system is as leaky as a sieve," he says.

Earth should spread its seed widest when we pass through a giant molecular cloud, a mass of dusty material from which stars are born. This has happened about five times since life appeared on Earth.

Each time, Napier estimates about three billion trillion microbes passed from Earth into the cloud. The chances of some of these finding their way to an Earth-like planet are quite high, he says. A similar process could even explain how the Earth wound up hosting life in the first place, he adds.


link for subscribers

Maybe McKenna wasn't so far off after all. I do recall reading somewhere that fungal spores were the only living matter on earth that could survive in space although I cannot remember, or find, where. This article seems comfortable with all kinds of life taxying their way through space on rocks.

Regarding Siberia, the shamans there have been munching mushrooms for quite a while from wikipedia:

This mushroom is psychoactive although it is not related to Psilocybe species as many presume, has been used as an entheogen in rituals to communicate to the spirit world, largely in Siberia, with some reported incidents elsewhere in the northern hemisphere

They have even incorporated the fly agaric into their creation myths and from what I can recall spent a reasonable amount of time talking to gods in the form of small mushroom people.

What came first the drugs or the religion?

Not going to be an easy one to answer, it could well vary from place to place. I would put my money on the drugs as it looks like a liking for drugs seems to be more prevelant in nature than a need for religion - stoned koalas, tripping insectivores, felines ripped on catnip and of course.... smoking monkeys! It seems we do not have to be very advanced mentaly to get mashed, religion on the other hand might take a little more brain power.

Could any animal activities be decribed as religion? I'm thinking mainly of elephants. Graveyards and rememberance of the dead, I'm sure in one documentary they stopped during a trek to mark the spot of the death of one of the group the previous year.

And finally, am I talking out of my arse with the last two points?
 
  
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