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SBR: Child Free for those opting not to reproduce or raise children

 
 
Ticker
19:53 / 24.08.06
To start this off, I have only respect for those who elect to raise children in a complex world. It is not my intent for this thread to be in anyway negative towards those who are raising children or looking forward to raising children in the future.

It is my intent to create a thread for people who wish to discuss the difficulties in opting out of child rearing, the means by which to medically become sterile, and the impact of a decision not to adopt if biological reproduction is not an option.


As a woman I found enquiring about sterility procedures to be a giant pain in the ass. I felt like every one was trying to talk me out of it or reassure me that I would change my mind. When I politely pointed out that yes, I had spent a good long time considering my options and yes I was paired off with a long term partner who also did not want to reproduce I was still given the Talk.

Mind you there was a time in my life when I figured 'one day I'd be a parent'. There were a couple of times I got to stand on that what-if-line and it never happened. My spouse made it very clear when we met that child-free was his choice and I had a long hard think about it and agreed.

Then there was discussing it with the families....oy vey.
Then there was the funny looks from my coworkers when they would discuss their children and ask about when we were having them and I'd firmly state 'not for me'.
Then there was the giant pain in the ass of getting non biased information on various procedures. My male spouse had a much easier time and didn't even get the Talk when he went to the urologist.

I can only chalk this up to some giant sexist myth that *all* women will explode if they don't have babies by 40 but you know, some men just don't want to be fathers.

Grr.

On happy news land we are officially a non-breeding pair as of yesterday and I found today the world seemed a little more comfortable to me. Some shadowy fear had been erased and I'm pretty sure its name was unwanted pregnancy.

I don't have the most conventional of friends but we've all discussed the ambient pressure to reproduce and how it manifests as a standard of Success.
 
 
stabbystabby
20:05 / 24.08.06
as a non-child-wanting dude, i have to say i've been given the talk a dozen times now. i've been trying to get a vasectomy since i was 20 - now i'm just saving some money for the procedure... i just know that kids are not something i can devote the time or energy to...
 
 
Ticker
21:18 / 24.08.06
we were lucky and insurance covered it.
However our premiums will always be charged as if at any moment we were going to have a kiddo.
No adjustment for being sterile.

Is the dude-talk different from the dudette-talk I wonder?

From what group did you experience the most incidents of anti-sterilty talkage?
 
 
stabbystabby
21:50 / 24.08.06
dudette is even more against kids than i - which is always a good reply when people say 'sure, you don't want kids, but what does your girlfriend say?'.

i get the talk from lots of places - my GP is dead against it, she thinks i'll change my mind when i get older. some of my friends think everyone should have kids.... my mother keeps saying that i'll be a bullock, not a bull. (wtf?)
 
 
sorenson
22:04 / 24.08.06
It's interesting to me that the problem that you speak of is really only an issue for couples of the heterosexual variety. As a lesbian wanting to have children, I have had similar experiences as you for the exact opposite reason. I had a basic assumption for many years (that I would never have children) that changed; since my partner and I decided that we did want to have children we have had difficulty accessing medical help (we live in a place where lesbians aren’t allowed access to IVF unless they can prove they are medically infertile); and we have experienced all kinds of dismay and concern from family members and friends for choosing to have children without a man in the household.

I guess the point I’m making is quite banal – just that society generally finds it hard to cope when anyone makes reproductive choices that are not normative. I think it is incredibly annoying, and feel sad that you have been given such a hard time about your choices.

(sorry if this is threadrot)
 
 
stabbystabby
22:11 / 24.08.06
not threadrot at all sorenson. at least i know i can get the procedure done eventually, i just have to put up with some well-meaning lectures. i can't imagine what it'd be like to have to deal with legal discrimination as well.
 
 
feline
01:38 / 25.08.06
Sorenson, I have lesbian friends in Melbourne who've had babies with IVF; I think there are ways around the 'medically infertile' thing these days.

We decided not to have kids years ago but were put off by those 'talks' for a while. My partner's doctor told him not to do it because I would change my mind and want children later. My partner confirmed that I wouldn't ever want kids. The doctor then said, 'but what about if your partner dies and you remarry, and your new wife does want kids?' I think some people just cannot get their heads around the fact that you might not want to reproduce... Anyway, thankfully there are family planning clinics where they respect your decision!

My mother in law sat me down and said that I shouldn't have married her son if I didn't want to have his babies. Ho hum.
 
 
stabbystabby
04:37 / 25.08.06
gah, that's awful no idea. i'm glad my mum has never speculated on me having kids. though that's probably cause she thought i was gay for quite a while....
 
 
stabbystabby
04:41 / 25.08.06
oh crap, sorenson, i just realised how insensitive that comment was. i'm sorry.
 
 
sorenson
04:59 / 25.08.06
That's fine Stabby! I'm not offended at all. (My mum was pretty sad because I always vociferously maintained that I wouldn't have kids. She died a couple of years ago, but when I told my brother that we were thinking of babies he pissed himself laughing and said "You know, Mum always said that you would get married and have kids, even though you always said you wouldn't, and she was right after all, sort of!")

No Idea - we're fine (my partner passed the medical infertility test - ironic hey - IVF is not exactly fun) but it's more the institutionalised discrimination that annoys me. Us queers are good at getting around it but that doesn't mean it's not irritating!

But now I really have rotted the thread. I'll go away now.
 
 
stabbystabby
05:20 / 25.08.06
Also, i've noticed the reasons i give for not wanting kids get some very odd reactions. I usually say i just don't want kids, never have - which is pretty straight forward. it invites the usual 'you'll change your mind' response, but whatever. But when i give a different reasoned response, like 'i would never want to pass on my genes' (which i really don't - family history of bad backs, diabetes in everyone over the age of 45, cancer for everyone, heart disease and all sorts of nastiness) i get really offended responses.
 
 
stabbystabby
05:22 / 25.08.06
errr, wot's SBR?
 
 
Jub
06:52 / 25.08.06
I think it's: Social Behavioral Research - ??
 
 
Saturn's nod
07:22 / 25.08.06
I think it's 'Sex Body and Relationship': it was suggested a while ago that threads which might want to be found later for a new forum on those topics should be tagged 'SBR' in the title.
 
 
Jub
08:57 / 25.08.06
good call. Thanks SN.
 
 
stabbystabby
11:05 / 25.08.06
ah. thankee!
 
 
Whisky Priestess
11:48 / 25.08.06
(we live in a place where lesbians aren’t allowed access to IVF unless they can prove they are medically infertile)

Am I being extremely thick, or isn't that the case for heterosexual couples too?
 
 
Cat Chant
12:05 / 25.08.06
(There's also an old Headshop thread on children here. Not that it supersedes this thread or makes it redundant at all, I just thought anyone who was reading this one might be interested in the other one.)
 
 
Ticker
12:29 / 25.08.06
sorenson you're not rotting the thread you're just offering a different perspective of the social filter regarding reproduction.

yup SN was correct about my sticking SBR in the title. Seems like it would be a SBR thread, no?

My spouse has been adamant for his entire life that he never wanted children. His role models are a kick ass aunt and uncle who elected not to have any children and he grew up admiring their lifestyle. When his sister came out (there are only two sibs) all the reproduction pressure went into over drive on him. Though as he was such a loner his mum never really figured he'd get married. (she was awesome thanking me for loving her son at the wedding I could have died from happy-od right there on the floor)

Then I showed up and the fam got all 'wee' and the child convo started in on him again. I was a bit freaked you see, didn't want to have to tell my new in laws that no babies were n the agenda but himself was very up front about it being his choice as well.

Well than the pressure went back to his sister and her partner for a while until I believe their 'rents came around to the reasons why we weren't giving them more than grand dog babies and grand cat babies.

My two olders sisters have kiddos so I figured my 'rents would be a bit less invested. Sadly my when I told my mum about himself going in for snippage she responded "Great so when you get remarried you can have children."

Ugh. Er. Remarried? Bah.

My dad was slightly bluesed but seems pretty excited about the idea of dog grandchildren one day so long as they are Irish Wolfhounds.

I've experienced some really wierd feedback on my choice not to breed before. One of my friends said she assumed as much because of my issues (WTF?!!).

I remember having one of my large tattoos done by a wonderful tattoo artist that happened to be gay and processing that he would never have children. You often get into intense conversations with people while you are spending a few days together sharing exhales over a body part. Anyhow we discussed what it's like to have the revelation that you're just not going to do it. All the cultural expectations you carry suddenly rolling to a stop. He'd already processed not leading the standard het middle class american dream as set forth by his background in embracing his sexuality, but at the time he was learning to say fairwell to another branch in the road he would not turn down.

It was an amazing couple of days taking about grieving for choices not made and celebrating unfolding paths.

There's that wierd thing were if you admit any grief over not taking up a choice people jump all over your ass that obviously that means you made the wrong choice. This rings of bullshit to me as often it is painful to set down a cherished dream (even if it wasn't completely your dream) before you can tend another one.
 
 
grant
12:52 / 25.08.06
I've sort of made a similar choice myself, only backwards -- raising children without biologically reproducing.

It's very interesting that medical infertility is so entrenched in assumptions about adoption, both among the strangers one meets and among the, uh, members of the adoption community. The fact that we didn't go in for IVF makes us outliers among the people we'd generally talk to about "issues" or whatever.

Quite a few of them seem to have made that a cornerstone of their identities as families -- one of the tropes you run into again and again with adoption is "the journey to my child" (just look at the blog titles out there... always a journey to whoever), and part of that journey generally includes words like "implantation" and "cryogenic."

I do get a feeling, sometimes, that I'm somehow frustrating a branch of the family (I look just like all my mother's father's relatives -- we have a distinctive nose). My children (I have two, and two step-children) don't have that nose. They don't look anything like me (although, amusingly for me, people are always assuming my stepson is my bio son). On the other hand, insufferable smugness is always a risk. I've got a less-than-zero reproduction rate, baby. I get extra planet-saving points! RESPECT ME!!!

Between the melancholy nose and the smug points, I try to keep my equilibrium.
 
 
Saturn's nod
12:52 / 25.08.06
I've heard that from others, too. Did you see that story in the Guardian last year? Gwyneth Lewis, titled 'I can never know if I did the right thing', but she speaks about finding unexpected grief in going through her own sterility and finding peace with it. I think it's important to mourn for the choices I didn't chose: otherwise I am blocking myself from a full realisation of the choices I've made. I think people find child-free choice challenging because it raises the question of whether those people have ever made a conscious choice or whether they/we are just going along with the program. That old "Consumers are required to reproduce" cartoon springs to mind, though I can't find it by Googling right now.

Is it the same as in other decisions of which unconcious society disapproves? How much is the grief at realising one's commitment to an alternative vision hidden to avoid dumb sniping? I think there's a component of that in deciding not to conform to mutilation and pain in the name of femininity: I have a little bit of sadness that I will never be a media princess lookalike, but actually it's a very healthy decision to decide not to injure and poison myself to conform to those unconscious strictures on what women are meant to look like. I make a free choice for example to wear shoes that don't hurt my feet, but it doesn't mean I don't sometimes feel slightly regretful at not finding myself able to choose to go into the unmarked category, by demonstrating my conformity to expected femininity.
 
 
Ex
16:18 / 25.08.06
Thanks for starting this - I've been wanting to discuss it, but I do find some of the child-free online communities somewhat hardcore. I understand the need to vent, but I'm a sensitive flower.

One thing I hadn't thought of much but I was amused to note in xk's account is that even though I don't want to have/raise children, I'm sometimes taken aback by the reasons for people's acceptance. Bless my sainted mother, but when she said 'Oh, we'd given up on you...' in weary tones, I would almost have preferred 'But you have to pass on your genius! And would be a splendid parent! Conceive forthwith!'

I've never wanted children. Oddly, in my first serious relationship, I hadn't pinned it down with such certainty. Neither had my partner. Since then, I've become definitely anti-, and he pro-, which is another reason to be glad we parted and can be fulfilled in different ways.
Since then, checking with any potential partner whether they wanted children has been one of the most risky conversations of the relationship. It's less negotiable, for me, than most other aspect of the relationship I can think of.

With random other people, there's often such a weight of expectation that it can be very hard to be heard, even. It's become hilarious.
(This may involve what some people may feel are unfair insults to kids - I'm still working out whether it's unjust of me to pigeonhole children, and will happily go into it at greater length, but you want to skip it.)

I have conversations in which I say: I have no real empathy with children, or patience, and I tend to find their company less interesting than that of adults, and don't really get excited about the work they're doing to learn how to be people, and often find that process a bit unsettling.

And someone will reply: 'But you'd make a great mother!'

I think this is because saying (to a woman particularly) 'you'd be a terrible parent' is a huge insult. So even when all the indications are that someone wouldn't be much cop at childrearing, if they're a nice female person, they must be potentially 'a good mother'.

Also, recently I've had: 'But you'll feel differently about your own...' Why? Will they be able to fly, or sing motifs from the music of the spheres? I'm sure I would feel differently about my own, but I don't think that's a good reason to produce them.

Anyway, to conclude the ramble, I'm hoping to get the essure procedure when it's available in the UK (currently only in Birmingham). It's sterilisation without an external incision. I'm rather interested in the process of obtaining that (I imagine by the time it's around, I'll be accepted as a sufficiently mature candidate - I'm 30 at the moment).
Also, I'd like to see how it would affect how I read my own gender. It's effectively taking myself out of one of the biggest bits that help determine the sex/gender system. I have no idea if that would have any psychological effects.

Thanks to everyone who's already posted.
 
 
Ticker
17:51 / 25.08.06
The funniest comment I've ever heard my spouse make on the topic of having children is if the Apocalypse happened he would, why, for farm equipment and extra food sources of course.

We've paid each other compliment of saying 'if I were to I'd with you rather than another' which feels like a 'trapped on a desert island' sort of compliment.

grant, I'm not sure why people get so wierd about their genetics having to be passed on especially in families where there are other carriers of said genes. It has always struck me as very strange not to invest in the children of my tribe but merely hold out for my own. I'm very excited to be the wierd aunt available to the children of my peers as well as my siblings.

Plus I hate hearing 'but who will take care of you when you're old?'
Please I'm not going to enslave another person as some sort of retirement plan.
Unless the Apocalypse happens and my glasses break. Then I will make an orphan read for me in exchange for knitting.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
18:09 / 25.08.06
Having kids is a very personal decision.

Hell, having popcorn is a personal decision but it bears fewer consequences... at first.

I'm right there with you on the 'Consumers must procreate' thing. I feel that as an American it is expected that I produce children. But despite the mis-steps and mistakes my parents made in my own rearing I feel that my partner and I can contribute to making the world a better place by producing a kid (or two... twins run in her family... YIKES!).

I'm very overwhelmed by the prospect of raising a family... but I'm overwhelmed while making dinner as well. I got through that OK, so you never know.

I too am stunned at the blind eye given to adoption. Again it's a very personal decision to raise a family or not, but if biology is an issue that doesn't exactly rule out raising a family, does it? Lots of kids are out there who could benefit from a caring home. I mentioned to a friend who was facing a fertility problem and he just shrugged saying it wasn't for him. Not my place to press the issue.

Kids ain't for everyone, you just have to do what's right for you.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:25 / 25.08.06
I'm not sure whether to post in this thread or not, as a person with a child I feel unqualifed to comment. But I think it's a very interesting topic for discussion and I have vested interests in it because my sister is adamant she will never have children and my Aunt and Uncle never had any either. In their case they made the decision not to have children and took up various hobbies with vigour. They sailed and they did archery and they built a boat and they travelled all over the world for my Uncle's work. My sister and I occasionally went to stay and adored it. But now they're a bit older and they have two dogs whom they absolutely dote on, and you can see, you can really see that the dogs are surrogate children. I mean I know I'm from a bonkers family, but these dogs eat off the dinner table and not just at Christmas.

So yes, there is something going on there, with the dogs and the no kids.

My sister gets extremely cross with people when they suggest she will change her mind, and she cites one of her myriad of reasons as: 'I would not want to put a child of mine through what I went through.'

I support my sister and I have never said to her that I think she is wrong or that she will change her mind, because how the fuck would I know that? But the question about her childhood foxes me. I'm confused. I went through that same childhood, (admittedly not in her mind and body) and I did not come out the other end with that feeling. I don't deny that we had a lot of dificult things happen to us, but for me it just made me all the more determined to give my children something that my sister feels we did not have.

See, the thing is, having children wasn't very easy for me. Pregnancy was hideous and vile and I did not bond with my child for a good while. I had horrible post natal depression and I resented my child hugely at first, really properly. I thought he had 'stolen' my life away, and I thought my sister was right.

Now I don't feel like that and I cannot imagine my life without him. I love my life and I am happy in it. I'd even like another child maybe, because fuck it, if you've got one, then you might as well have many, it's just as much work!

But sometimes I think about people like you here in this thread, people who have made the conscious decision to opt out of having children, and I am jealous of your strength of mind, and your freedom, and your not having to go into spasms of panic about school spaces and circus club places and I wonder, just sometimes, what my life would be like if I had not had him.
 
 
Ticker
19:47 / 25.08.06
you're all good to post here Olulabelle.
If anything the 'Lith is a diverse group that doesn't have to get all stars-upon-thars with each other.

I believe every person must choose the right path for themselves and sometimes making that decision requires input from as many sources as possible to help a person sort their own shit out.

I support and celebrate my friends and family that choose to rear children or choose not to equally. Forcing someone to reshape themselves to another's ideals is fucked up.

I'm sure there is a plausible reality out there with me hip dip in kiddos and happily so. Yet that reality is not this reality and I would have had to make different choices. I'm pretty damn happy with the ones I have made but that doesn't make me a poster child for anyone else.

I too have wierd converstations with my sisters who do have children. My eldest sib often quipped "now you don't have to have any" after she had her first and I was still on the fence then. It was rather unsettling, as if her choice impacted mine?
Then more recently I was talking to my other sib about being a sterile pair and she was oddly defensive about keeping her fertility even though she and her spouse have decide they've had enough kids.

These topics are so layered with self interpretation it's hard to have a transparent dialogue around them.

essure procedure

I checked it out here in the states but it hasn't been kicking around that long for the research to be where I'd like it to be. I'm sort of nervous about the idea of the wee copper implants staying in the fallopian tubes long term.
 
 
stabbystabby
09:26 / 26.08.06
yeesh, that sounds a bit rough. not a promising history of contraceptive implants, really....
 
 
feline
10:24 / 26.08.06
...they have two dogs whom they absolutely dote on, and you can see, you can really see that the dogs are surrogate children.

I know what you mean, Olulabelle, but maybe it's not actually such a bad thing? (the hygiene aspect aside, perhaps). I laughingly refer to my cat as my 'baby', and I do completely dote on him, but I don't think it's necessarily unhealthy. It doesn't mean that I regret not having kids - but maybe even those of us who've decided not to have children need 'something' to love unreservedly, whether it's a pet or a garden or a project... The advantage for me is that I can leave my cat with friends when I go on holiday and I don't have to worry about schools or child care. It's not so much a surrogate as an alternative... Maybe? Am I deluding myself?

I sometimes wonder whether I'll regret not having grandchildren - I have this occasional nightmare about growing old and unloved. But then I look at my own grandparents back in the UK, and here I am in Australia, and my sis in Hong Kong, so it's not as if we're exactly a daily source of comfort to them. There are no guarantees that your grandkids are going to know / like / live near you; and anyway, having children just so you won't be lonely in old age seems like a really selfish reason to procreate.

My partner and I have talked about it a lot, and we consciously try to invest really heavily in friendships: build our own 'family' of people around us who we'd like to grow old with. I guess in the end there are no guarantees about anything in the future, you just have to make your choice and see what happens... Let's all compare notes in 50 years time and see what worked.

On another subject, adoption has been mentioned a bit in this thread; does anyone have any experience of fostering?
 
 
feline
10:42 / 26.08.06
Just responding to Whiskey Priestess' comment further up the thread.

Sorensen said: we live in a place where lesbians aren’t allowed access to IVF unless they can prove they are medically infertile

WP said: Am I being extremely thick, or isn't that the case for heterosexual couples too?

The difference is, some parts of Australia (and the rest of the world I imagine) are more enlightened in this regard than others. Some states allow lesbians and others to have IVF by classifying them as "socially infertile" rather than asking them to prove their medical infertility. Interesting article here.
 
 
Ganesh
10:48 / 26.08.06
It's interesting to me that the problem that you speak of is really only an issue for couples of the heterosexual variety.

I think that's still broadly true, but less so than used to be the case. Back in the early '90s, when I was nervously outing myself to people for the first time, one senior colleague, after being approving/reassuring about my gayness in general, assumed a manner of utmost sympathy and asked, "are you sad that you'll never have children?"

The question (and the assumptions underlying it) took me by surprise, and my first instinct was to laugh - because a) I'd never even remotely wanted to be a parent, and b) if I had, there was no particular sense of that avenue being forever closed to me as a result of my coming out as gay. I've never subsequently had a reaction quite like that, but the topic of reproduction has occasionally come up, usually far more tentatively. I think this tentativeness reflects the fact that expectations are different for gay people - certainly gay men - and, in many ways, we have an easier time of it. I discussed this once with a straight couple of my acquaintance: they couldn't have children, and were absolutely devastated about this. They talked about the expectation they felt (from relatives and friends) to have kids. It seems as if, with straight couples, the default assumption is that they'll reproduce while, with gay couples, the default assumption is (or, at least, was) that we won't. Which actually suits me well enough.
 
 
Ganesh
11:11 / 26.08.06
Also, in a slightly peripheral, backwards tangent to Ex's point

Also, I'd like to see how it would affect how I read my own gender. It's effectively taking myself out of one of the biggest bits that help determine the sex/gender system. I have no idea if that would have any psychological effects.

I'm reminded of a male/male couple I knew years ago, who fathered a child with a lesbian couple. I'm not sure how they went about arranging the, um, 'sperm provision' but I do remember how the biological 'gay dad' seemed to shift in terms of how he saw (and presented) his own sexuality. He was, he said, finding more and more women sexually attractive - and, frankly, being a bit of an insensitive arse around his male partner. It was as if involvement in pregnancy - and, since he and his partner continued to share parenting duties with their lesbian friends, the role of father - gave him a new confidence and assertiveness.

In the end, the female/female couple split up, and so did the gay men. Ironically enough, the most committed parent out of the four of them was probably the male who wasn't the biological father.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:36 / 26.08.06
(Just a note to say I'm loving this thread, and as a happily and pretty resolutely child-free Meme, pondering my own response)
 
 
Ticker
16:03 / 26.08.06
It seems as if, with straight couples, the default assumption is that they'll reproduce while, with gay couples, the default assumption is (or, at least, was) that we won't.



I suspect so much pressure had been placed on my spouse originally because their family assumed as the other child was in a homosexual long term relationship she would not reproduce. It did arise as a joke between the two siblings eventually that the only major difference between the two couples was one had dog babies and the other cat babies.
 
  
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