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Interacting with difficult posters who (we suspect) are mentally unwell

 
  

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Ganesh
20:01 / 22.08.06
As some of you will be aware, I've been meaning to start a thread on this for ages. Part of the reason it's taken me so long to do so is that I'm well aware that this is going to be a difficult thing for us to talk about in a constructive way: not only because the whole issue of medical diagnosis - especially psychiatric diagnoses - is controversial and emotionally charged (such diagnoses being used variously to stigmatise or excuse), but also because consideration of this aspect of online interaction tends, generally, to complicate rather than simplify things. Complexity is not always welcome.

Why am I initiating discussion now? I'll readily acknowledge that I'm partly motivated by personal irritation at a particular viewpoint which has been expressed when we talk, as a board, about how best to manage a difficult poster. This is most recently expressed by Flyboy here, but has popped up elsewhere and from other posters. The suggestion is that, when dealing with a poster who's making inflammatory statements, those who attempt to better understand that poster, or whose first instinct is to cajole rather than condemn, have skewed moral priorities. As an argument, it's reminiscent of John Major's "condemn more, understand less" soundbite, and in many cases, I think it's an unfair criticism. I'm going to attempt to explain why I think it's unfair, because I think there's an overlap between this and the ongoing problem of (probably) mentally unwell posters on Barbelith.

One reason it's difficult to discuss this frankly is that the stigma attached to mental illness is such that using specific posters as examples, in an explicit way, seems intrusive and unpleasant. On a more selfish level, I've found in the past that when I get into this sort of 'personalised' discussion with a poster, of his/her mental health, I risk setting up an emotive doctor/patient dynamic which not infrequently results in me becoming the receptacle of projected bad experiences with the psychiatric profession. This rarely ends well, and I don't want it to happen here. I'm therefore going to try to stick to general examples where possible.

So. A poster, usually a newbie, starts posting in a way that attracts attention, negative attention - sometimes spouting sexist, racist or homophobic content; sometimes simply employing a blunted mode of interaction which appears rude, dismissive or disrespectful of others. Our tolerance for this sort of thing is, I think, lower now than it used to be. There are long discussions elsewhere of why this might be so, but that's not particularly the remit of this thread.

Sometimes, the poster in question seems... not quite right. Sometimes it's subtle; sometimes less so. If we think they might be unwell, mentally, does this matter? Should it have any bearing on the board's collective 'immune response' and/or individual reactions?

I think it should - or, at least, the possibility of (and implications following on from) mental illness as a factor should be given more consideration than is currently the case. I've been slightly concerned, in the past, that we have a tendency to (in Sesame Street terms) see something apparently inflammatory and assume Bad - and react accordingly. I reckon our response should at least include some consideration of the possibility of Mad, too.

Beyond this, it's difficult to establish concrete 'rules' or even guidelines. I'm well aware that the presence of mental illness doesn't automatically obviate responsibility for bad behaviour, just as having attracted a 'severe and enduring' psychiatric diagnosis doesn't automatically prevent one making quality contributions to Barbelith. I'm also aware that "I can't help it; I have Disorder X" has been (ab)used in the past, by those who've exhausted the patience of all...

There's also the thorny issue of what, exactly, constitutes mental illness. Some might argue that the cluster of behaviours we label trolling might, in and of themselves, indicate 'psychological damage' - and this might well be the case. Additionally, there's the fact that actually diagnosing mental illness over the Internet is inherently iffy, and fraught with pitfalls.

The above notwithstanding, I find that I can often recognise certain 'pathological' styles of online posting. I'm talking psychosis, really, particularly chronic psychosis which has had a while to evolve. Certain things set off alarm bells for me, make me suspicious. There's characteristic content (paedophile shape-changing lizards, etc.) but also the subtler stuff which is less to do with out-and-out bizarre concepts themselves but the leftfield manner in which more everyday concepts are linked together. Particular styles of association/connection, sifting information. Also, those who've worked with people who developed schizophrenia in their teens or twenties (as is typical) will be aware that there's commonly impairment of interpersonal skills, particularly communication skills, at least partly because sufferers contracted the illness at a time when they should've been developing those skills, and the process has been disrupted.

None of this bodes well for involvement with an online community like Barbelith, in which fairly refined communication skills are essential. It's not especially surprising that many of the obviously psychotic individuals who contributed in the past no longer post here. It can be a demanding environment even for those who're perfectly well, mentally. To a certain extent, I think people who're running into difficulties as a result of psychotic illness shouldn't post here, largely for the sake of their own mental well-being. Not infrequently, they become entrenched in 'high expressed emotion' flamefests not because they're bad people but because they genuinely lack the capacity to fully appreciate what they're doing wrong.

I think this has implications for how we manage those situations, and I suppose that's where I'm coming from when we get into the situation of looking at whether a given poster ought to be banned. Personally, I want to gauge (to my own satisfaction, anyway) whether the individual concerned is psychologically fit to be posting here, in terms of their own best interests as well as others'. Do they possess the capacity to self-reflect? Can they admit doubt (often not the case with psychotic delusional systems)? How do they interact with others - specifically, can they accommodate viewpoints which challenge their own? Elements of ego strength, or lack of it.

My own framework for assessing these qualities is based on my technique for carrying out Real Life assessments of mental health/capacity. I'm always careful to approach such situations, as much as is possible, from a position of respect - respect for someone who is, more often than not, uncomprehending and angry at being 'held to trial' for reasons they can't fathom or don't agree with. Responding to that anger in kind rarely progresses the assessment, so I try to keep things calm and courteous, at least until I've got some idea of what's going on.

So where does this all get us? I'm not sure. I don't think I'm arguing that, where someone shows strong signs of being mentally ill, they ought necessarily to be accorded a greater degree of tolerance; on the contrary, sometimes I think it's kinder all round to ban. I suppose I'd like to see this done a little more... I dunno, kindly (again) than is the case at present. Not letting a poster off the hook because we strongly suspect they're Mad, but perhaps not assuming immediately that they're Bad and going for the jugular.

(At the very least, I don't think it's fair to cast those who're using a more softly-softly approach as apologist 'hand-holders' who irresponsibly reward the Bad poster with undeserved positive attention. In my own case, at least, I'm very deliberately taking this approach because I'm trying to get a better idea of what makes them tick - and I'm doing that because I think that the probable presence of psychiatric illness ought to influence our handling of problematic posters.)

I don't know quite how we'd achieve this, or even if it makes sense to anyone else. Does it?
 
 
grant
20:24 / 22.08.06
It makes perfect sense to me, and was part of the reason I was previously musing over simply deleting offensive content rather than collecting it to "build a case" or whatever. Moderating posts rather than posters.

Regardless of whatever policy is in place, I think there's probably something to be gained by looking at ways to approach/communicate with people who have some of these symptoms.

I mean, questions of morality and niceness aside, what's the most efficient and practical means of determining what the heck is going on?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:37 / 22.08.06
Hmmm. Interesting stuff, Ganesh.

So, if I understand correctly, are you saying that on one level we shouldn't be going through the accusation/recrimination/negotiation/redemption/recidivism process with some people, because that is in itself potentially likely to make their mental illness worse? That we should just ban people, but not because they have behaved in an unacceptable way deliberately (bad) but because Barbelith is functioning either intentionally or unintentionally to exacerbate their pathology? So, a kind of "no judgement" (except of mental health) ban?

Hmmm. Is there another side of the coin? Where somebody's mental illness is not leading to them being unhapppy on Barbelith, but is making Barbelith unhappy? I guess I;m wondering where you draw the line. One could identify a lot of behaviours we see around here as in some way either obsessive or delusional - in some cases leading people to leave of their own accord, and in others to get banned, but in some cases neither.

More generally, how do we identify the mentally ill? We have fewer people qualified to do that than we have qualified to identify a troll. Also, how do we deal with the potential unhappiness some might have at seeing their mental health discussed in public?
 
 
Ganesh
20:58 / 22.08.06
Haus, I'm deliberately not advancing specifics because, as I say, I'm aware that this is going to be a difficult, contradictory discussion in which it's near-impossible to lay down any sort of firm guideline. I'll do my best to address your questions, though.

So, if I understand correctly, are you saying that on one level we shouldn't be going through the accusation/recrimination/negotiation/redemption/recidivism process with some people, because that is in itself potentially likely to make their mental illness worse? That we should just ban people, but not because they have behaved in an unacceptable way deliberately (bad) but because Barbelith is functioning either intentionally or unintentionally to exacerbate their pathology? So, a kind of "no judgement" (except of mental health) ban?

I hadn't thought this through in terms of specific banning processes, but I do think this is relevant, in a general way, to the discussions we have when someone has behaved in a way which might lead to them being banned. I'm saying that their having behaved badly should not be the only factor under consideration: the presence of Mad doesn't necessarily trump or obviate Bad, but it's worth thinking about. At present, I don't think we think about it enough.

I guess I'm floating the fact that, as well as thinking in terms of someone's 'net worth' to the community ("net positive" and "net negative" being common terms here), we should perhaps consider their capacity for getting by on Barbelith - and, yes, to an extent, that might include the possibility that being here isn't good for them, severe psychotic illness being the example that's uppermost in my own mind right now.

Hmmm. Is there another side of the coin? Where somebody's mental illness is not leading to them being unhapppy on Barbelith, but is making Barbelith unhappy? I guess I;m wondering where you draw the line. One could identify a lot of behaviours we see around here as in some way either obsessive or delusional - in some cases leading people to leave of their own accord, and in others to get banned, but in some cases neither.

Well, of course. It was in no way my intention to suggest that this wasn't a factor. I don't think we neglect the issue of people "making Barbelith unhappy", though, do we? I suggest only that, at the point of considering someone's banning from the board, we allot some thought-space to the possibility that things might be two-way, that the individual making us unhappy might be doing so for reasons other than sheer Badness.

Obviously that need not necessarily lead to us not banning them (as I hope I've made clear); I do think, though, that we might, I dunno, soften the process a little. Allow for the equivalent of a 'no judgement' ban, to use your analogy. Be slightly less critical of those who're disinclined to set their phasers immediately to Snark.

More generally, how do we identify the mentally ill? We have fewer people qualified to do that than we have qualified to identify a troll. Also, how do we deal with the potential unhappiness some might have at seeing their mental health discussed in public?

All valid questions. Short answer: I honestly don't know. At present, I'm suggesting only that we bear the possibility of mental illness in mind when dealing with a newbie whose interactive style seems blunted, overinclusive, who seems always to be answering a different question from that asked. We're always going to be dealing in possibilities and probabilities here, so there's no way to be sure. I'm just saying keep it in mind.
 
 
Ganesh
21:12 / 22.08.06
It makes perfect sense to me, and was part of the reason I was previously musing over simply deleting offensive content rather than collecting it to "build a case" or whatever. Moderating posts rather than posters.

I think there are problems with that approach too, not least the fact that moderating posts can make it more difficult to examine someone's content or style of interaction. I agree, though, that the idea of 'case-building' sounds a tad judicial, and I think that dovetails with some of my concerns around mentally-ill posters. I suppose I'd prefer a more social-worky model, which would ask, "why isn't this working? can it work?" and try to address the practicalities - but some of that's undoubtedly down to my familiarity with this sort of assessment process in Real Life...

I mean, questions of morality and niceness aside, what's the most efficient and practical means of determining what the heck is going on?

In the sense of "why isn't Poster X able to post in a positive way", y'mean?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:25 / 22.08.06
I understand the points that you're making and my first response is this: how do people who do not work with mental illness recognise the symptoms that you are loosely outlining and respond in a positive way? Your work provides you with the experience to see these things in a way that the majority simply cannot. I have more experience of mental illness then the average person though certainly not the average person here and I am aware that I would not pick up on the things you are referring to in this thread. That is an immediate practical issue and thus the question of whether you want to highlight illness and call attention to it is relevant as you alone may see a problem. I'm not disagreeing with your points, I think you're hitting on things that are correct, I don't know how they can work into everyday practice though.

I strongly support the idea of acting for the community first. This space functions as a communal area and I dislike the notion of tailoring it to individuals however I think the issue here is not specifically that because the best communities develop solutions, the issue is how to develop...

I suppose I'd like to see this done a little more... I dunno, kindly (again) than is the case at present

I'm not sure that this can be done, the kindest way to ban is to do it quietly, without humiliating and with little anger and it generally involves one or two people making the decision privately and maintaining the "fact" that their decision is where it stops. We don't have that here in any sense, we tend to discuss banned posters even after they've gone, which is in some sense the worst unkindness. The system that we use at the moment is democratic but it equates to a wide discussion and analysis of the actions of a poster and with so many people chipping in we can't avoid a character assassination even if every contribution was significantly kinder. The only way to avoid this with the discussion we partake in is to put down hard and fast rules that no one can contradict and that is thrown down in a variety of ways whenever it's discussed. To be kind we have to do it differently, we have to do it in a new way because publicly judging others is never kind.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:28 / 22.08.06
I'm sorry, I just realised that my first paragraph has already been addressed.
 
 
Seth
22:45 / 22.08.06
I think the fact of not being able to properly diagnose the psychological state of the people with whom you're dealing is a good motivator for generally erring on the side of a kinder posting style. Because of the mechanics of how Barbelith works it's clear that member's actions have to be discussed in open forum, and so given that's the context within which we have to work then it's only really useful to discuss how we might best talk to people and about people within that context. In this case a reasoned conversation without flaming, insults, namecalling, snarkiness or unfair generalisations is going to be the most constructive means of building a case and might also be very useful feedback for the person who might be causing problems, as well as generally providing better quality learning for people who are interested in how a complex of beliefs or a set of actions might be understood within the context of the whole person.

I'm generally in agreement with Tryphena that telling someone that you don't want them around is a hard thing to say, and a hard thing to hear. And it's also necessary from time to time. The trick is to find ways of doing that which are less potentially damaging than others, while recognising that we can't afford to do away with open democratic debate on this site.
 
 
Ganesh
22:57 / 22.08.06
Gah. After posting my response to Haus, I fixed an italics error then immediately saw points I wanted to refine. Unfortunately, it's a slow night for Policy moderation, and my refinements haven't even entered the moderation queue. Some of them touch on what you're saying, though, Nina, so I thought I'd just work them into my answer.

I understand the points that you're making and my first response is this: how do people who do not work with mental illness recognise the symptoms that you are loosely outlining and respond in a positive way? Your work provides you with the experience to see these things in a way that the majority simply cannot. I have more experience of mental illness then the average person though certainly not the average person here and I am aware that I would not pick up on the things you are referring to in this thread. That is an immediate practical issue and thus the question of whether you want to highlight illness and call attention to it is relevant as you alone may see a problem. I'm not disagreeing with your points, I think you're hitting on things that are correct, I don't know how they can work into everyday practice though.

I've been thinking about this. I probably am more alert to the signifiers, but others notice them too: Xoc certainly does (again, because he's got Real Life mental health experience), and I've previously been PMed by posters asking "do you think so-and-so's okay?" - suggesting that, while the small print stuff might not be apparent, there's not infrequently a general sense of oddness, of not-quite-rightness that can be picked up without psychiatric training or experience. I'm fine with people contacting me by PM asking me to give an opinion in these cases.

I could also talk a little, in this thread, about some of the stuff that indicates to me that a given poster might not be well. It'll never cover all the bases, but it might help others to recognise some of the signs.

I strongly support the idea of acting for the community first. This space functions as a communal area and I dislike the notion of tailoring it to individuals however I think the issue here is not specifically that because the best communities develop solutions, the issue is how to develop...

No, it's not about tailoring the end result to individuals - but possibly the process. I agree with you that the community as a whole is and should be our primary concern. I intended to emphasise this in response to Haus's question:

Is there another side of the coin? Where somebody's mental illness is not leading to them being unhapppy on Barbelith, but is making Barbelith unhappy?

I don't honestly think we neglect this possibility: it's generally takes primacy, and rightly so. Where banning is concerned, I don't think the end result should be tailored to the individual, but I think the process itself might be modified in cases where there's the strong suspicion of psychotic illness. I don't necessarily expect people to withold or tone down (what they see as) righteous anger at the difficult poster but, personally speaking, I'd like the option of approaching the situation differently without risking condemnation as an apologist 'hand-holder'. That's something that annoyed me during the ShadowSax thing, and continues to annoy me when the sentiment's replayed.

I'm not sure that this can be done, the kindest way to ban is to do it quietly, without humiliating and with little anger and it generally involves one or two people making the decision privately and maintaining the "fact" that their decision is where it stops.

Maybe - and I think that, in certain cases, you may very well be right. In the case of suspected psychotic illness possibly being a factor, I think a certain amount of discussion would necessarily have to take place behind the scenes, by PM. We (supposedly) have a 'fast track banning' for established trolls returning to the board, and perhaps that ought to be considered also for individuals with barn-door psychotic illnesses?

The system that we use at the moment is democratic but it equates to a wide discussion and analysis of the actions of a poster and with so many people chipping in we can't avoid a character assassination even if every contribution was significantly kinder. The only way to avoid this with the discussion we partake in is to put down hard and fast rules that no one can contradict and that is thrown down in a variety of ways whenever it's discussed. To be kind we have to do it differently, we have to do it in a new way because publicly judging others is never kind.

I think that, where it does happen, there may be ways of making it less unkind - or, ideally, picking up on possible mental illness factors before things reach the point of 'trial' threads? I don't know. I also think that, yes, being discussed publicly is unpleasant, there are probably ways to lessen the unpleasantness, or at least make it briefer.

Suggestions very welcome. I'm really just throwing around ideas.
 
 
Ganesh
23:14 / 22.08.06
Seth, you've managed to articulate a lot of what I was getting at. I'm in agreement with all of that, particularly

I'm generally in agreement with Tryphena that telling someone that you don't want them around is a hard thing to say, and a hard thing to hear. And it's also necessary from time to time. The trick is to find ways of doing that which are less potentially damaging than others, while recognising that we can't afford to do away with open democratic debate on this site.

I think we need open democratic debate, but I suspect that there'll always need to be some PM discussion too, given the difficulties I've outlined in openly discussing someone's (perceived) mental health problems. I do believe there are ways of conducting these 'hard things to say and hear' which are kinder than others. To use the Real Life analogy again, there've been plenty of times I've been involved in Mental Health Act assessments where it's been decided, eventually, that someone has to come into hospital against their will. That's a horrible outcome for all concerned, but even within the inherent unpleasantness of removing someone's liberty, there are ways of making the process kinder. Talking respectfully to the individual concerned, for example, not laughing in their face or responding to their anger in kind, keeping things as brief as possible, moving quickly once the decision's made.

Will have a think about this.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:13 / 23.08.06
Hang on a second....

This discussion worries me. It's not because I actually like the current policy on banning people -- I'm beginning to think that deleting posts would be far more ideal. I think we can ban people 'gently', especially those who obviously have mental health issues. Unfortunately the current process is not conducive to that: we don't have clear policies on what constitutes bannable behaviour, and the original suggestion from Tom that people PM him to ask for a ban has turned into public collective adjudication.

But my greater concern is that by bringing someone's mental health issues into the 'moderation matrix', we're throwing unnecessary resources at problem posters. Ie, Ganesh, since you're the poster on the board with the most experience of diagnosing and treating mental disorders, wouldn't a process of taking mental health into account mean you would be called to adjudicate more often? Is that something you really want to do, given that psychiatry is a draining job anyhow?

My feeling is that moderation of unacceptable behaviour needs to be seen as drawing a boundary. Once a person crosses the line, here are the consequences. It doesn't matter why they crossed the line in the first place, what matters is that the person has. Having dealt with mentally ill friends and relatives, to me this is also the best way to deal with people having psychotic episodes. Otherwise, you get sucked into an emotional whirlpool (oddly enough, exactly like what is happening in the other thread at exactly this moment). You feel like your own boundaries are constantly being transgressed, and you wind up resenting the mentally ill person -- and unable to help them.

I also feel that it's not our responsibility to make decisions based on a kind of online lay diagnosis. I agree that Barbelith may not be 'healthy' for posters prone to psychosis, but I don't know that anyone of us can claim to know what's right for another person. Even, with respect, you, Ganesh. This is why the boundary-consequences model is best: it's not about figuring out what's happening inside a poster's head, it's about unacceptable behaviour. I'm not saying that people can't be concerned for others' well-being, but it needs to happen on an individual basis. I don't think this can happen as a 'collective' moderation process.

Lastly, unless practical suggestions are put forward, this discussion is entirely speculative. I would strongly suggest that the only way this discussion can happen usefully is to think of practical processes, and discuss them. Otherwise, why raise it? What does it achieve?
 
 
*
07:04 / 23.08.06
I'm finding myself agreeing both with Ganesh and with Disco. MD, with you on every point except the last— I think I'm in a position where I can really benefit from this discussion even if it results in no change in the boards at all.

I think I understand you to be saying, Ganesh, that it would be good to take into consideration the fact that irrational-seeming posters may be reacting the way they are because they have a mental health issue that causes them to perceive the situation much differently than others, and that bearing this in mind for pretty much everyone we don't know well can help us all communicate more effectively and in a kinder fashion, even if the people eventually end up getting banned anyway. I'm really with you on that. And MD, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that if we try to act as posters' personal therapists, it'll just be bad for everyone, and I'm really with you on that too. The two positions seem pretty reconcilable to me, and since I'm back in the position of responsibility in my house that I left in disgrace in the spring, thus facing the possibility of having to deal with similar situations as those I fucked up, I would really love to get at the complexity inherent in the middle ground.

So— what can laypeople do to communicate more effectively with people who might have some kind of mental health issue, without having to pseudodiagnose them or sacrifice other necessary boundaries? on the boards particularly, but I'm hoping for lessons I can generalize to my offline interactions.
 
 
Ganesh
11:07 / 23.08.06
Disco, my intention certainly wasn't to worry you. I'm with Entity on not seeing a particular problem reconciling what I'm saying with what you're saying. Let me try to address some of your points:

I think we can ban people 'gently', especially those who obviously have mental health issues. Unfortunately the current process is not conducive to that: we don't have clear policies on what constitutes bannable behaviour, and the original suggestion from Tom that people PM him to ask for a ban has turned into public collective adjudication.

Indeed, we don't have clear policies on bannable behaviour - which means that, as Seth points out, some degree of case-by-case discussion is inevitable. That being so, it surely behoves us to look at the ways in which that discussion can be framed and conducted - and I'm proposing that one factor which might influence our framing of that discussion is the consideration that someone might have a serious psychotic illness.

But my greater concern is that by bringing someone's mental health issues into the 'moderation matrix', we're throwing unnecessary resources at problem posters. Ie, Ganesh, since you're the poster on the board with the most experience of diagnosing and treating mental disorders, wouldn't a process of taking mental health into account mean you would be called to adjudicate more often? Is that something you really want to do, given that psychiatry is a draining job anyhow?

Well,

a) I'm not sure it's easy to split resources easily into 'necessary' and 'unnecessary'; for me, at least trying to gauge a problem poster's motivation and particularly their capacity to change is fairly central to any assessment of their 'net worth' on Barbelith. I wouldn't consider this a waste of my or anyone else's time.

and

b) Given that we're talking an inexact balance of probability and possibility rather than rock-solid face-to-face psychiatric diagnosis, I don't think this is an aspect that only a trained mental health professional can and should consider. I'm only really asking that we allow the possibility of serious mental illness to occur to us when handling newbies posting in an apparently inflammatory, problematic manner.

My feeling is that moderation of unacceptable behaviour needs to be seen as drawing a boundary. Once a person crosses the line, here are the consequences. It doesn't matter why they crossed the line in the first place, what matters is that the person has.

I disagree. Not that that matters - obviously it does and, in an online community, it takes primacy - but the fact that they have crossed the line is not the only factor worth considering. I think it matters why they crossed the line because I think that has some bearing on whether they possess the capacity to not cross the line in future.

Increasingly, the process we went through with ShadowSax is being referred to as a 'trial'. Using that as an analogy, courts will generally consider the fact that an offender has crossed the line and the likelihood of their reoffending. If they're standing in the dock, obviously hallucinating and thought-disordered, it would surely be remiss of the court not to consider the possibility of relevant mental health issues. They may well reach the same decision in the end, but are perhaps less likely to be harshly punitive in their attitude to the offender, and the way they reach and deliver their decision.

Having dealt with mentally ill friends and relatives, to me this is also the best way to deal with people having psychotic episodes. Otherwise, you get sucked into an emotional whirlpool (oddly enough, exactly like what is happening in the other thread at exactly this moment). You feel like your own boundaries are constantly being transgressed, and you wind up resenting the mentally ill person -- and unable to help them.

I'm not talking about psychotic episodes - the Temple, in particular, is replete with accounts which might be termed psychotic - I'm talking about chronic severe ongoing psychotic illness which has, over time, adversely affected an individual's interpersonal abilities to the extent that they really cannot communicate effectively online.

I'm also not talking about friends and relatives, to whom one has particular obligations and relatively little power. I see the situation here as much more analogous with a Mental Health Act assessment or social circumstances review ie. a more 'semi-detached' look at why someone's attracting a negative response, with no long-term obligation to live with them or be their friend, and with a certain degree of power over what happens to them next (ie. a problem poster can be banned; a problematic friend or relative cannot).

I also feel that it's not our responsibility to make decisions based on a kind of online lay diagnosis. I agree that Barbelith may not be 'healthy' for posters prone to psychosis, but I don't know that anyone of us can claim to know what's right for another person. Even, with respect, you, Ganesh.

Well, a beat or two above, you're making claims for the boundary/consequences model being "best", aren't you?

I'm certainly not claiming omnipotence here, and I did try, in my first post, to acknowledge the near-impossibility of attempting any sort of accurate online diagnosis. I do think, however, that it's possible to hazard 'good enough' diagnoses, or at at least 'good enough' assessments of capacity to change/interact with Barbelith.

And yes, we can never completely know what's best for another person. Having been involved in hundreds of Real Life assessments (which are, I think, similar), I'm aware of what's not good in these circumstances, what doesn't progress things. That's the basis on which I make these suggestions.

This is why the boundary-consequences model is best: it's not about figuring out what's happening inside a poster's head, it's about unacceptable behaviour.

I don't think the boundary/consequences model is incompatible with consideration of motives. I think the delivery of those consequences, though, in particular, can be informed by some consideration of what's happening inside a poster's head - that and the bad behaviour being, obviously, linked.

I'm not saying that people can't be concerned for others' well-being, but it needs to happen on an individual basis. I don't think this can happen as a 'collective' moderation process.

Perhaps not - but I'd like it to be considered on an individual basis. At the very least, I'd like to see less hostility directed towards those individuals who do consider it relevant.

Lastly, unless practical suggestions are put forward, this discussion is entirely speculative. I would strongly suggest that the only way this discussion can happen usefully is to think of practical processes, and discuss them. Otherwise, why raise it? What does it achieve?

Speculation about internal motives based on communication style informs many Policy discussions; it's central to any discussion of trolling. Why raise it? Because, to me, it's relevant to how we conduct discussions of problem posters, and I was hoping that making explicit my own approach might stimulate discussion which might eventually generate "practical processes" (I'm happy, for example, to talk about which elements of posting style make my own shrinkey-senses tingle, if people are interested).

What does it achieve? Well, I've explained, in my first post, that part of the reason I'm bringing this up now is connected to my own feeling, during the ShadowSax discussion, that anyone who didn't take the "condemn more, understand less" approach was subject to a fair degree of criticism, the implication being that attempts to gauge ShadowSax's capacity for change (by interacting with him politely) was irresponsibly apologist. It pissed me off at the time, and it pisses me off that the same (or similar) sentiment is being reused in the discussion of 33. If this discussion goes any way in addressing a criticism which I think is unfair, then I'll consider that an achievement.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:42 / 23.08.06
a beat or two above, you're making claims for the boundary/consequences model being "best", aren't you?

I think the point about the boundary/consequences model is that it can be applied to anyone regardless of our opinions of their motivation or health. It's fair because there is no analysis of actions but a simple cut off point, it's also unworkable when the only person who has the power to ban does not read Barbelith and a consensus on what constitutes these boundaries cannot be reached.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:02 / 23.08.06
is connected to my own feeling, during the ShadowSax discussion, that anyone who didn't take the "condemn more, understand less" approach was subject to a fair degree of criticism, the implication being that attempts to gauge ShadowSax's capacity for change (by interacting with him politely) was irresponsibly apologist.

Perhaps it's because people feel you're flogging a dead horse, that it's already been tried. When you write four paragraph posts to another member of Barbelith and they flat out ignore them and then someone suggests that there hasn't been an attempt at polite discourse it's not your condemnation that sucks. Your condemnation is born from a real attempt to engage that has been spurned and it's a reaction.

The question that I wanted to ask you during the Shadowsax event was how many people do you want to try to talk to Shadowsax or 33 and others before we call it quits? This question might seem aggressive but it's genuine and if there is an answer that I can understand than perhaps I'll understand your point of view a bit more.
 
 
doctorbeck
12:31 / 23.08.06
very impressed with the subtlety of thinking here about addressing the problems highlighted, it seems clear that there is some sort of consensus that there needs to be moderation of the list and that it is okay to ban people but that this protective strategy is weighed against concern for the individuals and acknowledgement of the considerable difficulties in making any kind of even tentative diagnosis based on what someone types on a bulletin board

i think i tend to err towards a view based on boundary setting and time outs by mods leading to outright bans if this doesn't work out, i think influenced by what i consider to be the impossibility of any clear formulation as to why someone is acting in a particular way without considerable information about their environent and lives that can never be got on-line

which leaves us with someones behaviour there and then as the only way of assessing and responding to the problem, not ideal but perhaps the best that is possible in the circumstances.
 
 
Smoothly
15:09 / 23.08.06
(I'm happy, for example, to talk about which elements of posting style make my own shrinkey-senses tingle, if people are interested).

I'd be interested.
 
 
Ticker
15:20 / 23.08.06
As Ganesh pointed out rather indirectly by mentioning the Temple, it isn't that Barbelith need be unfriendly/unwelcoming to those experiencing reality in unique ways.

I'd like to reinforce the idea that our online community is flexible and compassionate enough to welcome a very diverse range of communication styles and personal experiences.

What we are after is a set of more highly refined/developed tools for conflict resolution including a tool set that does indeed include an efficiant banning process.

I'm a big fan of faciltated mediation, it allows for communication strengths and weaknesses to be readdressed in a fair format. While our democratic openness is a healthy assest I suspect the level of heated inflammatory confrontation that occurs during these trials is not.

Personally I'd like to see a new tool added to our kit of repairs, that of structured mediation. I believe this maybe an appropriate way to examine a poster's communication style and perhaps deepen our collective comprehension when it differs greatly.

To this end I suspect we would need a subset of mods that were willing to do effective conflict resolution in a style agreed upon by the community instead of the cage matches that seem to occur now. Cage matches are grand for debates over specific points of debate raised in a topic, however they appear to be a shitty way to resolve interpersonal or collective group issues.
 
 
grant
15:23 / 23.08.06
Although the discussion has trundled on productively without my response:
In the sense of "why isn't Poster X able to post in a positive way", y'mean?
Hmm. More in the – "is ze saying this just to get my goat, or is ze just talking to hirself?" vein. Less "why isn't Poster X able" and more "is Poster X unable, or just unwilling," if that makes sense.

In other words, sort of repeating what Weaving just said.
 
 
Ganesh
15:42 / 23.08.06
I think the point about the boundary/consequences model is that it can be applied to anyone regardless of our opinions of their motivation or health. It's fair because there is no analysis of actions but a simple cut off point, it's also unworkable when the only person who has the power to ban does not read Barbelith and a consensus on what constitutes these boundaries cannot be reached.

My point here isn't that the boundary/consequences model isn't a good thing - I think it is, and I've been very clear on that - but that saying "X is best" rather cuts across the assertion that no-one can say what is best for people. But I was probably being a little snippy there, so let that pass.

A straightforward boundary/consequences approach certainly gives the appearance of being cut 'n' dried fair-across-the-board. In practice, I think it's actually not that clear, not least because the boundaries in question are always up for grabs in terms of always requiring discussion (misogyny, like homophobia and snark, is difficult to define to everyone's satisfaction). I think that, in discussing (perceived) transgression of those boundaries, we do interpret, to at least some extent, the motives of the transgressor. Any discussion of trolling, for example, is likely to include the supposition that so-and-so is "doing it for the attention".

My point being, we already do attribute motives to the individual who's transgressed the boundary, so in that sense at least, we're speculating upon his emotional state.

As for Tom being a distant patriarch, well, yes. That makes a whole load of things unworkable, not least a boundary/consequences model of any sort.
 
 
Ganesh
15:52 / 23.08.06
Perhaps it's because people feel you're flogging a dead horse, that it's already been tried. When you write four paragraph posts to another member of Barbelith and they flat out ignore them and then someone suggests that there hasn't been an attempt at polite discourse it's not your condemnation that sucks. Your condemnation is born from a real attempt to engage that has been spurned and it's a reaction.

Well, then, it's "your" prerogative to feel that satisfied that that horse has been well and truly flogged. Others may feel differently, and may want to assess the situation to their own satisfaction without themselves incurring a flogging.

The question that I wanted to ask you during the Shadowsax event was how many people do you want to try to talk to Shadowsax or 33 and others before we call it quits? This question might seem aggressive but it's genuine and if there is an answer that I can understand than perhaps I'll understand your point of view a bit more.

For my own satisfaction? Just me. My point is that when I do talk to "ShadowSax or 33 or others", I'd like the space and freedom to approach the situation in my own way, without being myself pressured to reach a particular conclusion. I'd also appreciate not being labelled a mealy-mouthed apologist with a wonky sense of moral priorities because I'm talking to ShadowSax/33/whoever politely. Generally speaking, I like to be afforded sufficient room to satisfy myself that I've reached a certain level of understanding before I condemn. Others may well want to assess the situation in their own way.
 
 
Ganesh
15:58 / 23.08.06
... the impossibility of any clear formulation as to why someone is acting in a particular way without considerable information about their environent and lives that can never be got on-line

Sometimes it's possible to obtain a fair amount of that information online, and that complicates matters. I appreciate that a 100% "clear formulation" is impossible to legitimately glean over the Internet, but then, in a Real Life Mental Health Act assessment, a decision is frequently reached on the basis of second-hand information and the weighing up of probabilities rather than the provision of first-hand experience of the individual in question. I think that, in some cases, it's possible to advance tentative 'good enough' formulations, and that there are occasions when those formulations ought to influence the way the 'consequences' are delivered.
 
 
doctorbeck
07:10 / 24.08.06
fair point ganesh, although with an MHA for example you do you masses of environmental / situational information to base decisions on from what i've seen of colleagues doing them. even a quick scope of someones living room is rich in information, text on the other hand is such a limited communication medium and whilst i agree that we all make inferences about motives and the inner world of other posters this feels like fort's mutilated octopus of investigive tools when looking at something liek mental illness. respect for trying though and attempting useful conversations with difficult posters rather than just putting them on the naughty stair for time out straight away.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:55 / 24.08.06
I'm confused. Did anyone ever suggest that Shadowsax was mentally unwell? Is anyone putting forward that theory now? And if not, is this thread not actually about two separate issues, that may occasionally overlap (specifically in the case of 33, although I'm yet to be convinced), but did not overlap in the case of Shadowsax?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:21 / 24.08.06
Good point, Shadowsax was bad but not mad, whereas 33 is both bad and mad. As it is I don't think Barbelith necessarily should give more time to try to deal with those people who cannot process metaphor, isn't part of the problem that they are rigid and unwilling to change viewpoints.
 
 
Ganesh
11:16 / 24.08.06
I'm confused. Did anyone ever suggest that Shadowsax was mentally unwell? Is anyone putting forward that theory now? And if not, is this thread not actually about two separate issues, that may occasionally overlap (specifically in the case of 33, although I'm yet to be convinced), but did not overlap in the case of Shadowsax?

Allow me to ease your confusion.

This thread is about a number of issues which frequently overlap, and have done in the past. The central issue is how we should approach difficult posters who we suspect may be mentally unwell, either when discussing whether they ought to be banned or (ideally) before that point. As Seth readily understands, uncertainty regarding whether or not a new poster might be mentally ill ought, arguably, to encourage a "kinder" approach when sussing out the situation. I certainly wouldn't dream of insisting that everyone do this, but it's my own preferred mode of engagement/information-gathering in this circumstance...

... which leads onto the second, related, issue, illustrated by past discussion of ShadowSax and your present comment on the 33 thread: that is, the importance (as I see it) of those of us who wish to assess the situation in a less confrontational manner (in my case, because I'm aware of the possible presence of severe mental illness in the individual on 'trial') being allowed to do so without attracting hostile criticism or pressure to act otherwise.

In answer to your specific questions, I don't think anyone explicitly suggested that ShadowSax might be suffering from a severe psychotic illness, no. I didn't get a strong flavour of that from his posting, but I did find his mode(s) of interaction oddly limited and, when I began talking to him in the possible-banning thread, I kept the possibility in mind. Engaging in a dialogue with him clarified things slightly, in that his capacity to change (or lack of it) became apparent. I also noted behavioural oddities, but didn't draw any sort of diagnostic conclusion from those. I still wouldn't risk a 'diagnosis', I don't think, but equally I wouldn't discount the possibility that ShadowSax's peculiar inflexibility reflected chronic illness.

I'm reluctant to comment in depth on 33, as discussion of him is ongoing.
 
 
Ganesh
11:23 / 24.08.06
fair point ganesh, although with an MHA for example you do you masses of environmental / situational information to base decisions on from what i've seen of colleagues doing them. even a quick scope of someones living room is rich in information, text on the other hand is such a limited communication medium and whilst i agree that we all make inferences about motives and the inner world of other posters this feels like fort's mutilated octopus of investigive tools when looking at something liek mental illness.

Assuming a Mental Health Act assessment is carried out in someone's home (as opposed to in Accident & Emergency or elsewhere) then yes, there's a certain amount of situational information - but, again, this has to be interpreted with caution. I'd argue that every form of second-hand assessment of possible mental illness is going to fall short of perfection, although Real Life MHA assessments are information-limited in different ways from pixillated text. In some ways, assessing mental state through behaviour/environment is more limited than having access to someone's thoughts written online. Ideally, of course, one would have access to all facets; I certainly recall that, when some form of written material was available as part of a MHA (either the individual's diary or letters to others), we invariably found it extremely helpful in glimpsing someone's thought content.
 
 
Ganesh
11:30 / 24.08.06
Good point, Shadowsax was bad but not mad, whereas 33 is both bad and mad. As it is I don't think Barbelith necessarily should give more time to try to deal with those people who cannot process metaphor, isn't part of the problem that they are rigid and unwilling to change viewpoints.

Hmm. I'm a little less certain of the Bad:Mad ratios of individual posters and, unlike Mr Morrison, I don't believe it's possible to generalise metaphor-processing inability to all psychotic people. I think there are broad rules-of-thumb that can be applied, but it's all very case-by-case. 'Concreteness' is recognised as a common symptom of the thinking of those who've suffered from schizophrenia for many years, but I don't think this necessarily maps onto schizophrenic people being "unwilling" to change viewpoints. I think it limits their ability to reason flexibly, whether they're notionally willing to change or not - which is one reason, I'm suggesting, for a slightly less punitive approach in situations where there's the strong suspicion of chronic psychotic illness.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:29 / 24.08.06
My confusion has only been eased slightly.

I'm still a little unclear as to what the second issue is: as I understand it, you're talking about an awareness of the possible presence of severe mental illness in the individual as one example of a reason why someone might wish to "assess the situation in a less confrontational manner", but not the only possible reason, right? I don't know if you mean "post in a less confrontational manner having assessed the situation", but that's probably by the by.

I'm sure Shadowsax's ability to interact was "oddly limited", as indeed is the case for many of us. However, if nobody is asserting that he suffered from severe mental illness, then I don't really see what his example illustrates. That is unless someone wants to make the argument again for why Shadowsax should have been treated in a "less confrontational manner" - as it is, I think the price Barbelith paid for giving him as many chances as 'we' did is too high, and I'll take some convincing otherwise.

Incidentally, when John Major said that we should "condemn a little more and understand a little less", he was talking about government policy on crime in the UK. Disagreement with that statement in the context it was made does not imply that such a statement would always be wrong in any context. Much like George W. Bush's claim that "There should be limits to freedom", the fact that a right-wing politician said it and that we all believe he was referring to a load of old bollocky nonsense does not mean that those words themselves could never be a good piece of advice for the way we, for example, respond to homophobic, racist and misogynistic behaviour on Barbelith.

You're also framing certain reactions to ShadowSax and 33 as being ones that do not involve "understanding" them. Personally, I think that it's the people who were quickest to condemn the pair of them who were also the first to understand them very well indeed.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:39 / 24.08.06
That is to say, understand what kind of worldview they were likely to continue to present in their posts on Barbelith, and how they would react to that worldview being challenged in any way.

Also I should clarify that when I said "unless someone wants to make the argument again" about ShadowSax, what I meant was - as I see it you're putting forward suspicion of psychotic illness (see topic summary) as an exceptional circumstance in which Barbelith, individually and collectively, should respond or at least support people who respond in a specific ("less confrontational") way to their posting. Your second issue is that there are other exceptional circumstances in which this may be the case - I'm not saying this thread can't include such a discussion, although we'd need to change the title and summary, but I think someone needs to put forward what it was about ShadowSax that should have influenced how we responded to his posting.
 
 
Ganesh
13:58 / 24.08.06
I'm still a little unclear as to what the second issue is: as I understand it, you're talking about an awareness of the possible presence of severe mental illness in the individual as one example of a reason why someone might wish to "assess the situation in a less confrontational manner", but not the only possible reason, right? I don't know if you mean "post in a less confrontational manner having assessed the situation", but that's probably by the by.

And now I'm confused by that last sentence. I'll do my best, though.

Yes, I daresay it's not the only possible reason. It was my primary reason for attempting to be civil - or rather, it was the central component of a more nebulous 'wanting to satisfy myself that I had a grasp of what was going on before being condemnatory or confrontational'. I daresay yes, there are other reasons (if I remember rightly, other posters at the time seemed to feel that a 'man on trial' ought inherently to be accorded some degree of respect, but I'm not sure this stands up) but my own main focus was, at the time, and is, in this thread, the possible presence of serious mental illness as a factor influencing behaviour and, crucially, capacity to change that behaviour.

I'm sure Shadowsax's ability to interact was "oddly limited", as indeed is the case for many of us. However, if nobody is asserting that he suffered from severe mental illness, then I don't really see what his example illustrates.

It illustrates my contention that, when I engaged with ShadowSax in order to try to ascertain possible reasons for his behaviour, and his capacity to alter it, I attracted a degree of hostile criticism from yourself and others - and I don't think that was fair or helpful. The fact that my assessment of ShadowSax did not cause me to opine, "I think he's suffering from a major psychotic disorder" does not invalidate the usefulness of me (or anyone else) taking the time to make that assessment.

The fact that similar criticism is being levelled at those who're being 'too kind' to 33 in the thread discussing him depresses me, and makes me rather disinclined to get involved again.

That is unless someone wants to make the argument again for why Shadowsax should have been treated in a "less confrontational manner"

My argument is rather that those engaging with ShadowSax in a polite way for whatever reason should have been treated in a less confrontational manner than was the case at the time. Casting them as apologists was, IMHO, unfair and risked prematurely narrowing the scope of the assessment and discussion.

I'm aware of the context of Major's quote.

You're also framing certain reactions to ShadowSax and 33 as being ones that do not involve "understanding" them. Personally, I think that it's the people who were quickest to condemn the pair of them who were also the first to understand them very well indeed.

You may very well think that. Other will think otherwise, and those others should've been allowed the time and space to reach a level of understanding of the situation which satisfied them, without being pressured to reach a particular conclusion.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:00 / 24.08.06
And if they had, perhaps more female-identified posters might have decided that Barbelith was a place where sustained outright misogyny was tolerated, and chosen not to post here any longer.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:05 / 24.08.06
I'm still unclear. Are you saying then that every poster who posts homophobic, sexist or racist content should be subject to an evaluation of their mental health even if nobody contends or suspects that they suffer from psychotic illness? Or are you complaining about my comments about the response to 33's "apology", which were addressed to people who had not made any comment about 33'd mental health as far as I recall?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:11 / 24.08.06
Are you saying then that every poster who posts homophobic, sexist or racist content should be subject to an evaluation of their mental health even if nobody contends or suspects that they suffer from psychotic illness?

We've had a thread to discuss Whether Extreme forms of prejudice should be considered as mental illness. The thread was rotted a little by zoemancer, whose views on prejudice I'm sure we're aware of (to the uninitiated they go something like 'Yay-yay-yay! Gooooo...Prejudice!!! and after a thread on Holocaust denial, the only time I've ever told a poster on this board to go fuck themselves, zoemancer was banned).

Personally, my layman's opinion was expressed in this post I made: Taking something that Zoemancer said:

"I think it is ridiculous to classify someone elses dislike of anything as a mental illness. Call it "extreme prejudice" or whatever you want at the end of the day it is the right of everyone to reject whoever or whatever they wish based on any reason. The line is crossed however when someone attempts to harm another person but that's a given in any situation. (italics mine)"

Okay, let's say I'm prejudiced against Latverians (I'll use a fake ethnic group to avoid any baggage associated with real groups). I refuse to speak to them, I won't employ them in my business or serve them as customers. Now, the reason I think this is because I honestly believe that all Latverians are clockwork autonamtons (sp?), sent to do evil by the dark god Captain Molestro. Given the statement above it is my 'right' to reject all Latverians for this obviously insane reason. If I were to speak with a psychologist and tell him that all Latverians are in fact clockwork robots I would be treated for this delusional belief, no differently than if I was wrapped in tinfoil to protect myself from KGB mind beams.
Now, how is my irrational belief, that has no factual support behind it whatsoever, different from saying that all Jewish people drink blood and control world finance/all black people are stupid, violent criminals/all white people are conspiring to destroy other races? None have any support in logic, just as my clockwork robot/tinfoil hat theory has no logic in it. Isn't one of the goals of psychiatry, and logic in general, to correct harmful beliefs through debate and argument, and isn't racism a harmful belief, even to the racists themselves -they have a much smaller group of people they can interact with and learn from, limiting them significantly in just about every way possible, just as covering oneself in tinfoil limits the way one can interact with the world.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:31 / 24.08.06
I'm aware of that thread. I don't find it very helpful, to be honest. The problem with your analogy is that the vast majority of types of homophobia, racism, sexism, transphobia etc. that we encounter on Barbelith are unacceptable to (the majority of) us precisely because they do in fact link up with existing structures of inequality in the rest of the world. So the answer to the question "this form of extreme prejudice is not based on evidence and seems outlandish to me, so why doesn't society consider it a form of mental illness?" is that society actually agrees with the 'extreme' view more than you might think.
 
  

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