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Fathoming Crowley

 
  

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Gypsy Lantern
15:25 / 03.08.06
I've been meaning to start this thread all week, but since my renegotiation of Gek's contract with barbelith depends on all requests being accompanied by a concerted effort to make a better contribution to the board, I thought I'd better crack on.

So I was dipping into Mr Crowley's "Magick in Theory and Practice" over the weekend, and quite an odd little book it is. It meanders along to its own rhythm and then suddenly floors you with the occasional cluster of paragraphs of such seeming depth and insight into the mysteries that often make you re-evaluate not just the preceding chapter but sometimes your entire perspective on the subject at hand. Chapters will come on far-fetched and ridiculous for pages at a time, then your assumptions about what the author is trying to do will suddenly be turned on their head as the tract unfolds into something quite unlike what it started as. He does this again and again, and it's impossible to know sometimes when it's all a put-on and when he's being straight with the reader. Occasionally you get a sense that the whole charade of "Magick" and its trappings is just a smokescreen or a device by which Crowley can talk about the internal processes that interest him.

I thought it might be useful to have a thread where we could look a bit more closely and in-depth at some of these specifics. I thought about doing it as a kind of book club thing, where we tackle a chapter of the book at a time and discuss it. But I can't really be arsed doing that as I have too much on, so I figured I'd just jump in with a chapter I wanted to talk about and then go from there.

This is the bit I want to look at first:


http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/aba/chap7.htm


My opening comments will be about the latter section on the magical memory, where I think the author does quite a few interesting things. I'm going to elaborate further first thing tomorrow morning, as I have to leave my desk in a few minutes, but I just wanted to get this thread in place to fulfill the initial terms of my arrangement with Gek. Will be back on the case ASAP, but in the meantime, have a read of that chapter if you're interested in contributing.
 
 
EvskiG
16:05 / 03.08.06
Here's the part I like best:

The Master Therion does not care a scrap of yesterday's newspaper whether he was Marius de Aquila, or whether there ever was such a person, or whether the Universe itself is anything more than a nightmare created by his own imprudence in the matter of rum and water. His memory of Marius de Aquila, of the adventures of that person in Rome and the Black Forest, matters nothing, either to him or to anybody else. What matters is this: True or false, he has found a symbolic form which has enabled him to govern himself to the best advantage. "Quantum nobis prodest haec fabula Christi!" The "falsity" of Aesop's Fables does not diminish their value to mankind.

In other words, regardless of whether memories of past incarnations are true or mere imagination, they're helpful to the extent they provide symbolic forms that allow us understand and improve ourselves -- they serve as "device[s] for externalizing one's interior wisdom."

Very Jungian.

(By the way, "Quantum nobis prodest haec fabula Christi!" means "How we are helped by this fable of Christ!" It was supposedly said by Pope Leo X. A more common (and cynical) version of the quote is "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us!")
 
 
Quantum
16:51 / 03.08.06
Quantum nobis prodest haec fabula Christi!

Actually that's just what the latin girls say in bed- I always thought it meant 'Quantum's nob is the proudest, hey!? Fabulous Christ!'
 
 
grant
18:08 / 03.08.06
What's the deal with the italicized interjections?

Pretend I don't have time to read the whole book, but am interested in engaging with this particular chapter.
 
 
aku aku
00:19 / 04.08.06
I'm actually quite keen on going through the whole of Magick in theory and practice chapter by chapter. But just glancing at chapter 7 is giving me headaches. How about we move onto chapter 1 next, I think it's a lot more accessable, perhaps a seperate thread for each chapter to help those, such as myself, who are strugling with their first reading of this work.
 
 
illmatic
05:08 / 04.08.06
Well, start one then, and let us know your your thoughts.

Grant: The italics are Crowley's footnotes. He was big on 'em.
 
 
grant
18:00 / 04.08.06
Who's "WEH"? A Crowleyan alter-ego or an editor?

I'm also wondering, like, on whose authority thingS like "pralaya" or "ahamkara" are translated. Crowley spoke Sanskrit?

The number business with the degrees and references to "Equinox VI, V" also baffles me, but I'm not that up on the intricacies of OTO or Golden Dawn stuff.

There's a sense, based on my bafflement and lack of confidence in translations from various cultures, where I think he could be playing a symbolic shell game. Like, with the "compound letter MGN" -- it's sort of an "Oh. OK." moment for me. I read that as an upronounceable (virtually) word coming from an arbitrary system of correspondences (numerology). Numbers and I don't get along, in general, and I kind of think there's something odd about using Hebrew correspondences with Roman letters (if that's what's going on).

But I'm still kinda curious in general.

At this point, it seems like reading the rough notes of a smart man.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
18:03 / 04.08.06
WEH is William Emmet Heidrick. He's a prominent member of the Caliphate OTO--Treasurer General, I think.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
18:15 / 04.08.06
Bear with me. I've got so much to say about this chapter and why I find it so interesting but I've been far, far too hung-over all day to be able to do any of it any justice.
 
 
Quantum
18:56 / 04.08.06
references to "Equinox VI, V"

The Equinox was Crowley's magazine that ran for about four years, it's in ten volumes so that would be chapter 5 of the sixth volume of that periodical. He loved his roman numerals did AC.
 
 
EvskiG
19:32 / 04.08.06
The Equinox is a fucking nightmare to wade through.

Volumes I and III exist, Volume II intentionally DOESN'T exist, and subsequent volumes can be a mishmash of authorized and unauthorized works by various authors.

Moreover, while Crowley constantly refers to The Equinox in his writings and instructions, unless you have a complete set (which can be pretty expensive) you pretty much have to hunt individual articles down in appendices scattered throughout his (many) collected works.

Don't even get me started on the numbering of his libri, which aren't consecutive, have huge gaps, and in some cases refer to works that were never published or even written.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
23:39 / 04.08.06
Oh, and thanks for numbering the libri in goddamned ROMAN NUMERALS, Aleister.

I really think that one of the things that stalled Crowley out in third gear was the conflict between his vision of a Thelemic planet and his inability to resist drifting into elitism. How do you expect your movement to catch on and produce a society of housewife and accountant magicians when you punctuate your points with bursts of Latin, replace common words with the most unwieldy and obscure synonyms you can squeeze out, and couch your instructions in sexual magic in a very un-metaphoric-sounding infanticide metaphor? It's really too bad that such a brilliant spiritual inventor was such a crap salesman. Sad but unsurprising that all it took was a charismatic literary hack swiping some of his ideas, dumbing them down, and cutting them with fifth-rate sci-fi to actually move the product.
 
 
illmatic
07:16 / 05.08.06
Well Regardie said of him that he seriously over-estimated the erudition of most of his reader. It's not surprisngly really, that he never got to know "normal folk" bearing in mind his background, and the fact that he never worked a day in his life!

Grant:I'm also wondering, like, on whose authority thingS like "pralaya" or "ahamkara" are translated. Crowley spoke Sanskrit?

I doubt it. Sanskrit is a tough language, and I've sure it would've been all over Crowley's work if he'd put in the effort to learn it. He did spend some time in Sri Lanka with Allan Bennett, so maybe this is where some of his contextual understanding emerged from. Other than that, I'd guess he relied on Western translations/popularisations of Eastern texts. Sir John Woodroffe would be an obvious steal, but Crowley never mentions him.

It's worth remembering though that a) these translations have been far outstripped by modern scholarship. For instance, he makes great use of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras in his writings on Yoga (Eight Lectures on Yoga and Book 4, Pt. 1) but some modern readings of the text make me wonder how deep his understanding was. Anybody interested in Crowley's reading should check out George Feurnstein's version of the text and some of the others out there. I have encountered several people who's understanding of Indian spirituality comes direct from Crowley and this always comes over as rather limited.
 
 
illmatic
07:27 / 05.08.06
ooops forgot b)... Sanskrit is a language with a lot of mutable meanings. For instance, put the word "cakra" into the University's of Colgone's Sanskit databse, and you get back about 70 different definitions, and it's my feeling that studying and reflecting on this complexity can be useful. Ripping a particular phrase out of it's context and then nailing it down to a particular meaning isn't always going to be helpful, though you might blind the less knowledgable with your eruditon.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
11:38 / 05.08.06
He did spend some time in Sri Lanka with Allan Bennett

Now there's an interesting figure. I was fascinated by Bennett and his path even before I really knew what Buddhism was about. You gotta wonder what kind of man he must have been to inspire such admiration from Crowley while still alive enough to trigger Crowley's usual competitive cut-down (see W.B. Yeats for a particularly idiotic example). Really the only contemporary of Crowley that the Beast respected as a magical equal or superior.
 
 
EvskiG
11:39 / 05.08.06
It's worth remembering though that . . . these translations have been far outstripped by modern scholarship.

Hell, yeah. That's why I wouldn't solely rely on Crowley's translations -- or even interpretations -- of non-English writings when there's a more modern, more reliable source.

As for the Yoga Sutras, personally I'm a big fan of "Light on the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali," by B.K.S. Iyengar. Solid translations and an incredibly detailed discussion by the leading authority on the subject -- a guy who has been studying them for more than 70 years.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:08 / 05.08.06
He did spend some time in Sri Lanka with Allan Bennett

...and they had a smashing afternoon drinking sugary tea and eating buttered scones with rasberry jam, that is, until Thora Hird showed up and insisted they use the right polish on the antique dresser that Aleisters Aunt Ida left him when she passed away. Of course, back when we were growing up, you could never get proper rasberry jam...

Sorry, I'll stop rotting my own thread...
 
 
Pants Payroll
23:15 / 05.08.06
"Don't even get me started on the numbering of his libri, which aren't consecutive, have huge gaps, and in some cases refer to works that were never published or even written. "
Don’t get too hung up on the numbering of the libri. They weren’t written or meant to be read consecutively or chronologically. I believe the numbers used as titles were derived from the gematria of it’s subject.


And a favorite passage of mine from "Magick in Theory and Practice": “In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth, and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.
It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them. “
 
 
EvskiG
04:32 / 06.08.06
Don’t get too hung up on the numbering of the libri. They weren’t written or meant to be read consecutively or chronologically. I believe the numbers used as titles were derived from the gematria of it’s subject.

Well, yes.

But it's a crap system of categorization, and it makes it damned difficult to find a given work.

(Crowley also uses it in a quirky, or at least inconsistent, manner. For example, Liber Samekh -- named after the Hebrew letter which corresponds to the number 60 -- is, of course, Liber DCCC, or 800).
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:32 / 06.08.06
“In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth, and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.
It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them. “


That's possibly my least favourite passage of Crowley's writing, as I think its largely responsible for the superficial level at which many contemporary magicians engage with deities. If you are not prepared to attribute any objective reality or philosophic validity to your interactions with deity - it is a huge obstacle to actually developing any sort of living relationship with them and acts as a contraceptive barrier to getting anywhere near the really interesting stuff that such work can bring about. If you don't give it space to be real, you can only ever be this cynical scientific observer hovering on the sidelines several steps removed from the experience you could be having. Crowley was a brilliant mind and an astounding magician, but I don't think he's a particularly credible authority on deity work. He just doesn't really get it.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:47 / 06.08.06
Having said that, I do understand where he is coming from in that statement. I think it stands up from a certain perspective, but it's also a flawed and problematic proposition from another.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:14 / 06.08.06
His understanding of diety comes through in libers NV and HAD, thats the best Thelemic stuff ive read so far with regards to what could be considered devotional forms of magick.

He seems to be wary of falling back to the influences on his mother and father if you ask me, i can imagine the pull to move away from those forms of practice were pretty strong for him. I think his whole aeonic structure reflects his family relationships.

Although having said that alot of devotional material also comes across in the rites of eleusis and the EGC writing.

I dont think he really stopped idolising his father, from wanting to follow in his footsteps as a boy, he did that very much in a sense, but also with a sense of rebellion.
 
 
illmatic
15:43 / 06.08.06
That's possibly my least favourite passage of Crowley's writing, as I think its largely responsible for the superficial level at which many contemporary magicians engage with deities.

I understand your reading but I disagree with that. I think that phrase is key to a certain side of his thinking, which I didn't notice on first reading. There's a strand which deconstructs everything - it takes the "nothing is true" motif and really runs with it. It's not nihlistic as such but plays with words and paradox, and gets "truths" to collapse in on each other. This is really best shown in The Book of Lies. Incidentally, this is why Robert Anton Wilson raves about him so much and sticks him in the same box as James Joyce - he feels Crowley approaches truth in a multi-facted, "deconstructive" way (for want of a better word), which was a better response to the conditions of the 20th Century.

I'd like to claim this as my own insight but it isn't at all! It's something I got out of Portable Darkness by Scott Michaelsen, which is a Crowley primer with extended essays by Michaelsen between each extract.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:52 / 09.08.06
I think that phrase is key to a certain side of his thinking, which I didn't notice on first reading. There's a strand which deconstructs everything - it takes the "nothing is true" motif and really runs with it. It's not nihlistic as such but plays with words and paradox, and gets "truths" to collapse in on each other.

That's why I added the caveat that I understand where he's coming from, and I guess it's why I would also draw a clear distinction between magic per se and Crowley's Magick. He really does seem to be attempting something quite unique, in this book and elsewhere, which I don't think he's really given much credit for. I sometimes feel that this side of his work is so difficult, contradictory and challenging that its largely overlooked by the people who would rather focus on the robes, buggery and blood letting aspect of the man. A primer like Duquette's "Magick of Thelema" gives you a great introduction to his rituals, but without placing them in the context of the relentless deconstruction that seems to be fundamental to his whole deal. Crowley's Magick strikes me as a very Modernist 'versioning' of the field of occultism. I think his work does not so much follow on from the Golden Dawn, so much as take the trappings of western magic and use that as a starting point for all manner of distinctly Modernist experiment. I think RAW is spot on with the Joyce comparison - as Crowley does with "occultism" what Joyce did with "the novel".

But I think we also need to bring criticism to bear on Crowley's Modernist experiment just as we would with Joyce or Eliot. His work is fascinating and contains an overwhelming depth. You could spend a lifetime exploring it. Yet is this magical deconstructivism, where truth collapses in upon itself endlessly, necessarily the most sophisticated or effective lens by which we can approach magic? Is 'Finnegan's Wake' the ultimate expression of storytelling and the most captivating narrative ever written? Or is it a product of time, place and experiment with its own merits and its own failings?

Should Crowley's observation that a Magician must not attribute "objective reality or philosophic validity" to spirits and so forth, be taken as a hard and fast law of best magical practice? It's often reeled out as if it should, almost like a last word on the matter. Yet, in my own practice, heavily informed by Voodoo and related traditions, I deal with everything at face value. My God and Spirits are objectively real and philosophically valid to me, and they wouldn't take kindly to being told otherwise. In Crowley's vision of magic, I would have lost the plot, become caught up in my own delusions, strayed from the path into low religiousity or something. But is he right? Should the Modernist perspective of an early 20th century, well-educated, upper class, white westerner who has had the leisure time to devote to an exploration of occultism - be taken more seriously than the working perspective of numerous cultures who have practiced effective magic for survival across thousands of years? Sometimes you get a sense that this is what is being implied, when people pull out the above quoted paragraph and hit you over the head with it.

I'm not sure if that is something that people really intend to do, so much as it is a symptom of these matters not really being looked at or picked apart in too much detail. There is a real unspoken sense sometimes that the perspective, goals and operating procedures of western magic from the Golden Dawn onwards through Crowley are "High Magic" and the surviving "shamanic" traditions that continue to thrive in various third world countries are on some level "primitive". As if the western forms are a more developed, highly cultivated, better refined way of doing things compared to the far less advanced, simplistic, even childlike forms you would find in non-western cultures.

I think it's something largely inherited from the dubious ideas that people had about non-western cultures in the late 19th/early 20th century, but its largely carried over into how modern occultists construct their sense of global magical practice. I think the fairly ubiquitous dumping of virtually all non-western approaches to magic - no matter how diverse or radically different they might be from one another - under the generic heading "shamanism", is an example of the unexamined dismissive tendencies you come across quite frequently. I can't recall the amount of times I've had people try to pigeon-hole what I do as "shamanism", and I've always found it a bit dodgy how the word can happily be applied to things as fundamentally dissimilar as Haitian Vodou and Jivaro journeying.

My perspective, speaking as a practitioner of both Voodoo and Golden Dawn/A,',A,', inspired western magic, is that the latter is technically the less-developed, more "primitive" form in a lot of ways. Since it is largely a modern reconstruction that's been cobbled together by a small group of London intellectuals based on manuscripts from the British Museum, insights gleaned from second hand sources such as medieval grimoires, the rituals of freemasonry, a theatrical bent, and the odd flash of blinding UPG. It takes its lead from older sources, but what we know as western magic is very much a modern reconstruction of something that was lost.

Whereas, if you look at something like Voodoo and traditions whose structure has a similar longevity, you're looking at something whose form has been refined, cultivated and passed on from generation to generation - without a break in the chain - for literally thousands of years. This is how something gets refined. This is how an advanced understanding of the mysteries of the universe is formed. This is how a sophisticated magic evolves.

I think the problem has something to do with the manner in which contemporary western occultism, as we practice it in all our different 21st century flavours, literally grew out of these earlier western expressions such as the Golden Dawn, Crowley, et al. More "earthy" movements such as Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wicca also owe a lot to the structures and methods of engagement that characterise western magic; and certainly chaos magic is a direct reactionary child of all these influences, yet nonetheless an unmistakable product of them, just as Crowley is a product of his Plymouth Brethren upbringing.

I think our frame of reference is imbedded in these forms, to one extent or another, often in a fairly insidious imperceptible way, and its this that needs to be understood in order to really get to grips with the work of Crowley. You have to situate him in his time and place. I think that if you try and take him on board as a "teacher about magic" in any generic sense you are going to go wrong. Just as you would if you looked to Joyce as your primary source for crafting a novel. Or else you risk statements like "students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them" being taken as an objectively real "truth" of magic in itself, rather than a facet of one man's insight into his own experimentation in the field.

I think the best way to engage with Crowley is to try and comprehend his genius and be inspired by the workings of his mind in response to magical encounters and occult experiment; rather than to necessarily take any of it on board. I don't think it is either possible of productive to try and practice or emulate Crowley's Magick as if it were a closed system, and I don't really think that's what he intended in the first place. It even says as much in the preface to the book by Soror Virakam:

"Frater Perdurabo is the most honest of all the great religious teachers. Others have said: "Believe me!" He says:"Don't believe me!" He does not ask for followers; would despise and refuse them. He wants an independent and self-reliant body of students to follow out their own methods of research. If he can save them time and trouble by giving a few useful "tips," his work will have been done to his own satisfaction. Those who have wished men to believe in them were absurd. A persuasive tongue or pen, or an efficient sword, with rack and stake, produced this "belief," which is contrary to, and destructive of, all real religious experience. The whole life of Frater Perdurabo is now devoted to seeing that you obtain this living experience of Truth for, by, and in yourselves!"

This wasn't the long post I was planning to write dealing with the magical memory, but I guess it's a start on fathoming some of my preliminary responses to Crowley and the experiment of western magic in general.
 
 
illmatic
11:11 / 09.08.06
Should Crowley's observation that a Magician must not attribute "objective reality or philosophic validity" to spirits and so forth, be taken as a hard and fast law of best magical practice?

[or is it] ... a facet of one man's insight into his own experimentation in the field.


Quick answer but I don't necessairily think that Crowley stuck to a literal interpretation of the "postmodern paragraph" we've been discussing himself. In the Hagiography for instance, he goes to great lenghts to "prove" the objective existence of Abdul Al Diz (I'm sure I've spelt that wrong), largely through the use of gematria drawn from coincidence. He does a similar thing in several other places also. Also, if he really felt this, harboured these kind of doubts about what he was experiencing, why did he set himself up as the Prophet of a New Aeon? I feel you have to have a *certain* amount of confidence in one's visions to announce that the last 2000 years of history is, like, so over, and usher in a new dawn with a new spiritual dispensation.

This seems to me to be related to another contradiction in his life and writing, the constrast between the basic message of Thelema (finding one's own deep seated meaning and purpose) and his desire to set up and propogate an organisation with himself at the centre, one that in many ways seemed to be colonising/replicating the religious spaces he claimed to have superseded. I think one has to recognise all these contradictions in his life and work to get to grips with it. I think this is something that isn't always ackowledged is the amount of different phases and ideas in his work (Buddhist, Golden Dawn, Thelemic etc). It isn't a coherent, consistent body, as much as it's the product of a man who wrote all throughout his life and his work changed and evolved (or devolved even) much as he did.
 
 
EvskiG
11:33 / 09.08.06
I agree that there's a fundamental and incredibly frustrating inconsistency between Crowley's quasi-scientific, quasi-skeptical approach toward magic and his propagation of the religion (or whatever you want to call it) of Thelema.

I'm not sure to what extent this inconsistency is the result of genuine revelations Crowley had late in his life and to what extent it's simply part of a cynical attempt to gain wealth and power by starting a religion. (If it's the latter, it didn't quite work out during his lifetime.)

Off to work. More later.
 
 
illmatic
11:37 / 09.08.06
I'm tempted to say both, possibly with more emphasis on the latter, bearing in mind he had very little cash left towards the end of his life.
 
 
grant
15:33 / 09.08.06
This is really niggly, and not directly about Crowley, but...

Whereas, if you look at something like Voodoo and traditions whose structure has a similar longevity, you're looking at something whose form has been refined, cultivated and passed on from generation to generation - without a break in the chain - for literally thousands of years.

I can't conceive of Vodou as "unbroken." The Middle Passage is, in my reading, the biggest kind of break one could possibly imagine. I always see the syncretic African-based faiths as adaptations to some very adverse circumstances. There are echoes of the original religion - misremembered names, similar characters - but they've been transformed. Of course, the original faiths are still there in Benin and Ghana and places, and have sort of started sprouting up here in the States (I remember a Yoruba group that was in the same social circle as the Rastafarians my sister used to hang out with in Gainesville).

It's interesting for me to conceive of Western occultism doing something similar, but I can't get my head around the W.O. being a reconstruction (made by free men & women living in Western Europe) when the African religions in the New World somehow aren't.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:05 / 09.08.06
“In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth, and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.
It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them. “


Apply the logic of that paragraph to the paragraph itself, is there anything objective or philosophically valid about the paragraph, except its own internal consistency. Seen in a certain way it deconstructs itself, as i think the man that wrote it did remarkably well and frequently.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
18:27 / 09.08.06
It's interesting for me to conceive of Western occultism doing something similar, but I can't get my head around the W.O. being a reconstruction (made by free men & women living in Western Europe) when the African religions in the New World somehow aren't.

The difference I would draw is the very large break in time period and the number of people involved. For the most part, what we know as Western Occultism is a reconstruction - originally by a very small group of people - of something that hadn't been around in any living sense for countless centuries. It's a Victorian peicing together of bits and peices from 16th century grimoires, a fascination for Egyptology, bits of Freemasonry and so forth into a reconstructed magic.

I don't think that's quite the same process as you find in the African Diaspora traditions, where the magico-religious practices of several cultures were syncretised together into a new form without ever having gone off line. The result is something that might vary in its composition and pantheon, but which very definitely operates from the same fundamental working dynamics as the traditional religions you still find in Africa. Vodou in Haiti is different on a superficial level from Vodou in Benin, but they both operate in much the same way, are concerned with the same things, and administer to the same needs in the same way. You can draw a pretty direct line. Certain ways of doing things have clearly been passed down from generation to generation, in a way that they just haven't in any meaningful sense in western esotericism.

A parallel might be if Vodou had been completely wiped out, nobody in the world practiced it anymore, but a couple of old books still existed where five or six individual practitioners had recorded fragments of their own idiosyncratic ideas about magic. Then 300 years later, a small group of Africans living in London decided to reconstruct what they thought Vodou might have been like out of these scant sources, mixed with a few other bits and peices from here and there, and the result formed a basis for modern magic. I don't think these two processes are comparable at all, not least since one syncretism took place at a cultural level over a lengthy period of time, and the other was assembled by about 30-40 people living in London in the 1890s.
 
 
grant
19:34 / 09.08.06
Ah - much clearer.

Actually, it's interesting to me that *most* of what I know about formal, ritual magick (that I don't get from this place), I know from anthropologists -- specifically folklorists, who seem to be more concerned with ways these old traditions may have survived in various ways within Christian Europe. Cults of the saints, hobby horses and all that business. Almost like they're reintegrating the living remnants with the book-larnin' stuff from (I suppose) the 1890s.
 
 
EvskiG
20:02 / 09.08.06
For the most part, what we know as Western Occultism is a reconstruction - originally by a very small group of people - of something that hadn't been around in any living sense for countless centuries. It's a Victorian peicing together of bits and peices from 16th century grimoires, a fascination for Egyptology, bits of Freemasonry and so forth into a reconstructed magic.

While it's true that the Western Esoteric Tradition is syncretic, many if not most of its sources were alive and kicking -- although not necessarily in England -- at the time of the Golden Dawn.

As I see it, Golden Dawn-style western occultism incorporates elements from Egyptian magic, Neoplatonism, Greek mystery religions, Enochian magic, Rosicrucianism, Kabbalah, Christian mysticism, Alchemy, Astrology, Hindu magic (e.g., the tatwas), Tarot, and (if you include Crowley, or even Alan Bennett) Yoga.

(I'm sure I missed a few.)

Of those elements, seems to me that Rosicrucianism, Kabbalah, Christian mysticism, Astrology, Hinduism, Tarot, and Yoga remained living traditions at the time of the Golden Dawn -- in some cases for centuries beforehand.

True, the Golden Dawn tweaked them and added quite a bit, but I imagine Vodou practitioners in the New World did, too.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
20:20 / 09.08.06
Yeah. The Golden Dawn syncretized things that had been around forever... the break in Western magic was the Enlightenment (created by Dee's Rosicrucian cultural engineering), during which magic went underground in the various secret brotherhoods. Before that, though, it was indistinguishable from science and goes straight back. You can probably at least argue that the Western Esoteric Tradition has been consistent throughout the second millenium.

As far as Crowley... I'm going to go out a limb here and state that Crowley wasn't actually as concerned with magick as we think. It can be argued that it was just one tool he used in service of finding the True Will—but that he wanted it to self-destruct upon that attainment. His "magick" was a self-created scaffolding meant to be eventually discarded and overcome, like training wheels...

In many ways, it was just one more world he sought to prove himself by conquering.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
20:21 / 09.08.06
That is, most of his rituals are anti-magical, for stripping magical forces and outside influences away, so that you can see the inner genius more clearly.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:00 / 09.08.06
Very similar to the notion of the raft to cross the sea or river in buddhism, Boy inner suitcase. You reach a point where you have successfully constructed your own raft, or learnt to breathe the water.

Some of crowleys writings draw directly from what appears to be buddhist ideaology. One of the pieces he wrote that left a lasting impression on me was the soldier and the hunchback, his deconstructing tendencies shine through very strongly in that piece.
 
  

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