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Paying the Gas Bill

  
 
EvskiG
21:12 / 01.08.06
"This is all very well, but how is any of it going to help me pay the fucking gas bill!"

This comment from Gypsy Lantern got me thinking.

Seems to me that the most critical issue every magical practitioner has to face is simply Getting and Keeping Your Shit Together.

I'll take it a step further: even if you can step onto the astral plane like the local bus, conjure spirits to visible and material form, and find a parking spot in San Francisco, you're not really much of a magician if (barring an extraordinary crisis) you can't get your everyday life in order.

Some occult systems say that before toddling off into the ether you have to stabilize your existence on the material plane. In raja yoga, before beginning mental practices the practitioner first builds stability through yama and niyama (ethical and moral precepts), asana (postures), and pranayama (breathing exercises). In the A.'.A.'., one of the Neophyte’s responsibilities is to "obtain control of the nature and powers of my own being," including by "in every way fortify[ing] [one's] body." Even in psychology, Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs states that individuals need to take care of "deficiency needs" (physiological, safety, love and belonging, and status needs) before moving on to "being needs" (self-actualization and self-transcendence).

Seems to me that, ideally, a magical practitioner should ask and continue asking the following questions (and other related questions) throughout his or her practice, and, to the extent there are problems, should direct his or her practice to fixing those problems before worrying about camping out in Kether.

* Am I physically fit and healthy?

* Do I have any mental health issues that affect my ability to function on a day-to-day basis?

* Am I satisfied with my personal and romantic relationships?

* Am I satisfied with my relationship with my family?

* Do I enjoy what I do for a living?

* Am I happy where I live?

* Do I have enough money to get by?

Seems to me that a lot of cases of magical burnout come from getting into the realms of weirdness when the practitioner isn't functioning effectively in the real world.

Any thoughts?
 
 
Ganesh
22:16 / 01.08.06
I think there's maybe some overlap with this thread. One way of defining "maladaptive" in the context of my thread might be in terms of using magic as a way of avoiding addressing marked 'deficiencies' in the Maslow hierarchy.
 
 
EmberLeo
22:29 / 01.08.06
My mom summarizes this concept as "The Mundane is Sacred"

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:00 / 02.08.06
I have reflected on this long and hard including the other thread, i think it comes down to what you personally find acceptable, not what society finds acceptable or maslow, if your lifestyle keeps you happy, that is the only important part, that it keeps you happy.

I have slowly but surely begun to learn that what keeps me happy is being self centred and catering for my own needs. To even try to contemplate what society wants from me is futile, because first you have to define what society is, and its far more than i or anybody else is capable of imagining. I have also learnt the hard way that a community has no obligation to me nor i too it.

I can really only say that my needs are not maslows as presented in this post, they may overlap in places but they are not the same. i would go with somebody elses sentiment, there is no difference between magic and the mundane, same thing.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:14 / 02.08.06
You might want to look at this thread, which touches on some of the same issues.
 
 
Quantum
16:38 / 02.08.06
Not to get sidetracked by the heirarchy but it might be better to see it as a web or net of needs instead. Yes, you need food more than enlightenment, but people often give up 'lower' more fundamental needs to pursue 'higher' needs e.g. quitting your job to write a book. Maslow's pyramid is a bit 1950s psychologist-oriented if you see what I mean.
I say this because usually when one area is messed up they are all affected, at least in my experience.
 
 
EmberLeo
16:47 / 02.08.06
That's a really good point. I didn't realize we were addressing the specifics of the hierarchy, rather than the concept that there IS one.

Is it safe to generalize physical needs and then recognise that things like having a job are a couple of steps removed from the physical needs themselves?

That is, jobs get you money (and emotional satisfaction, hopefully). Money gets you food. Food is a physical need.

But there are other ways to get food, other ways to get money, etc.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
19:53 / 02.08.06
Maslow's hierarchy, check it out. The basic concept is that the higher needs in this hierarchy only come into focus once all the needs that are lower down in the pyramid are mainly or entirely satisfied. Growth forces create upward movement in the hierarchy, whereas regressive forces push prepotent needs further down the hierarchy.

"Wahba and Bridwell (1976) found little evidence for the ranking of needs that Maslow described, or even for the existence of a definite hierarchy at all."

If we're characterising magical practice as Actualisation then the first four levels need to be satisfied first, and I just don't think that's the case. Anyway, sidetracking, sorry.

I think I'm more likely to listen to someone who seems sorted and competent. If you can't manage simple things like laundry then that's not a good sign for your practice which is IMHO much more complex.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:10 / 02.08.06
I am going to take each point and try to answer it as best i can

* Am I physically fit and healthy?

Yes pretty much, but i have learnt through doing exercise that you can be fit without being healthy, so while doing kung fu i became very fit, but parts of my body became unhealthy, especially my knees. needing physio in the end. i wasnt burning fat but glucose at some points, looked very fit, but i wasnt very healthy, rectifying that at present with a good diet water based foods fruits and vegetables with some fish and light aerobic exercise, walking. Have picked up a copy of alexander lowdens the way to vibrant health which i am going to start work with also. From what i have noticed from the martial arts i have done alot of people are fit but not healthy. i am concentrating on the health part, from my experience of fit i would rather be healthy. Also noticed a pranyama class today which i will take up, as this form of breathing is noted for burning fat as well as having mental health benefits.

* Do I have any mental health issues that affect my ability to function on a day-to-day basis?

Somedays somedays not, i could argue that i have had mental health problems for the last 30 years, but it is only within the last year that they have fully come to my attention, yet since i have applied myself to group therapy i am beginning to get alot of confidence and generally good energy running through me, along with having to face alot of negative experiences and learn to transmute them. I would say my mental health is becoming more healthy.

* Am I satisfied with my personal and romantic relationships?

Yes to an extent and NO!

* Am I satisfied with my relationship with my family?

This is a tricky question because it depends on alot of factors, i am satisfied, but if you asked them i would imagine they would say no towards me. But then family means alot more than just blood relatives. Families are very complex things in these times i am living in.

* Do I enjoy what I do for a living?

Yes, i currently do nothing but fulfill my own intrests and lifestyle, i enjoy that alot. Having said that i am currently looking into opening a small business as i have had an idea kicking around for the last 6 years or so which i would like to have a go at. So while i enjoy it i feel as if i should be involved in the wider community, offering others enjoyment who share my intrests.

* Am I happy where I live?

Most certainly, the place i live in is very much alive, so many estates i walk through these days seem DEAD calm, they are mostly new housing developements,where i am the walls in places read like books and so does the pavement, but the place is thriving and heaving with all the many coloured varietys of life. I wouldnt give this up for the clean innoculated housing areas i am starting to see pop up all over the place.

* Do I have enough money to get by?

Yes. but i would like more so can you all pay more tax please. thank you.

Its very easy for the real world to take a backseat and as noted in other threads for magic to become a form of escapism rather than transformation, but sometimes a person needs to escape to make the journey back. Until society is once again magical many people will seek all means of escape because they find it hard to find magic in the everyday, which somedays is very difficult, other days not so. Society and the dominant philosophies of western society have in a sense rejected magic, that can lead to magical practitioners feeling or constructing a rejected identity, a way to overcome this is to reintroduce magic back into society in as many ways as possible. I think this process has started but has a long way to go as of yet.

There is in me an immediate reaction of frustration at the notion of magic having to conform to another philosophies expectation. As it reinforces a sense of magic as a body of knowledge being rejected because it doesnt meet a more dominant ideaologies standards. Which in turn reflects on me as a person. It can feel as if a part of society is cracking a whip at you, with threats of punishment if you dont conform.
 
 
LVX23
03:07 / 03.08.06
Getting your shit together is part of balancing the spheres around tipareth (to use the GD/Thelemic vernacular). This seems pretty typical to western paths where there's less emphasis on abandoning your worldy possessions to live in a cave and more emphasis on integrating your magickal life with your mundame one. As Evski notes at the beginning of this thread, ya still gotta pay your bills.
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:49 / 03.08.06
I wouldnt mind seeing other people answer the points given if they would, it would be intresting to see how other people react to them other than myself and what conclusions they may come to in regards to there usefulness and application. For example has anybody ever created a hierarchy of happiness for themselves, sat down with a sheet of paper and thought about what makes them happy and then listed those activities as a document that can be refferred when feeling down, ways to pull yourself out.

I think, i may be wrong, that some of the above is focused on social obligation rather than attending to the self, actually learning to make yourself happy, love yourself, be yourself and enjoy yourself for yourself is helping me heal and deal with whom i am, part of this is paying bills on time, seeing friends occasionally, going to therapy, learning about healthy practices, but and its a big but, this isnt done to somebody elses standards or societys standards but mine, they are my choices not to be dictated by others or society. I have to live with who i am and my experiences at the end of the day, not maslow or anybody else. so the the hierarchy of needs isnt maslows its my hierarchy of needs that i attend to as they are needed.

A healthy society is built on a foundation of healthy individuals, not a set of principles or formulas, but healthy human beings who feel good about themselves.
 
 
razorsmile
11:18 / 03.08.06
LVX says, and I think rightly, that getting your shit together is "pretty typical to western paths where there's less emphasis on abandoning your worldy possessions to live in a cave". My own experience is that there is perhaps too much emphasis on this idea, that in some ways the need to be solvent to be perceived as sane is too dominant in wetsern magical practice. not that I mind being solvent, just that there are a whole range of situations in which I have come across magicians bemoaning this or that aspect of their life and have often had to bite my tongue for want of saying, well why don't you pack in the job/relationship/house that you're so obviously stuck in and which is causing you to feel like shit. not least because that's only ever my perception at work and I'm loathe to give advice to anyone on how they live their life, lest they take it...

the point that interests me, however, is that the idea that a magician needs to 'have their shit together' is something I hold to but just what that shit is can vary widely, so widely as to beyond prescription. a couple of very good experienced and well-known magicians I know have regular 'straight' jobs, others have left high powered jobs to take a path that precarious financially, others have shifted sideways entirely to become travellers for example. the issue is not money, health or even sanity but more importantly a centredness of purpose (even if that purpose is a kind of purposelessness). illness can be a kind of health at times (witness nietzsche, artaud), poverty a kind of wealth, confusion a kind of clarity.

the biggest sign of a poor or bad magician, as far as I can tell, is not their lifestyle but whether they moan a lot...those who moan, whine, whinge and berate life as though it somehow is not giving them something it should are so far from magical, indeed personal, competence as to be plainly existentially illiterate. those are the ones to worry about i think, to avoid perhaps, unless you have the energy to assist. not that moaning should always be forbidden of copurse, I'm talking more about 'on the balance of things' does this person embrace life, or reject it. affirm the mundane as well as the magical and those that cannot affirm the mundane cannot affirm the magical.
 
 
EvskiG
15:38 / 03.08.06
I just used Maslow as an example, but I see nothing in his hierarchy that requires conformity to societal demands. While he does address "status needs," obviously these vary from person to person. One person may be satisfied to have a few casual pals on the Internet who respect her, another might need to have his wedding as the lead item in the "Vows" section of the New York Times.

Obviously, a magician doesn't require a straight job or a lot of money to have his or her "shit together." Even the questions I posed above don't require (or presume) conformity with society's expectations -- just a certain degree of stability and satisfaction.

And some people, bless 'em, can be stable and satisfied in the middle of a whirlwind.
 
 
Quantum
18:43 / 03.08.06
I've been mulling this over because I was reminded of something from Tales of the City, where Maupin said that you had home, heart, health and career but you could only have three of them going well at once. Or something similar to that at least.
Let's look at the list-
* Am I physically fit and healthy?
* Do I have any mental health issues that affect my ability to function on a day-to-day basis?
* Am I satisfied with my personal and romantic relationships?
* Am I satisfied with my relationship with my family?
* Do I enjoy what I do for a living?
* Am I happy where I live?
* Do I have enough money to get by?
I can honestly say I don't know a single person, magical or otherwise, who could tick all those boxes, and I think if someone did they'd probably turn out to be the smuggest bastard in the world. I mean, can you imagine what that would be like? I'd be suspicious all the time that some catastrophe was just around the corner.

Now, my point is that by prioritising these things and putting magic at the bottom of an unattainable list you risk never fucking doing any. I would answer 'No' to probably all of those questions, and took a bit of a break intending to try and sort my life out, but I've realised that really these things are just a set of very convincing excuses not to practice. "I'll start my practice when I get a girlfriend", "I'll get right on it after I've made my first million", "I can't practice right now, I've got a cold". Bollocks. Magic is often supposed to help *get* the things you want, like money or love, so jump to it! Crack open your wand case and dust off your athame, never mind that your hayfever is playing up and you owe your credit card company money, just get on with it!

I think it's just another example of the different views of magic, the mystical finding your inner self versus results by sorcery. Yes, you can't camp out in Kether without making a map of Malkuth, but by practicing the techniques of sorcery you attain understanding that leads toward enlightenment/knowledge and convo of the HGA/headsex with the flying spaghetti monster/becoming a boddhisattva/whatever. Start with the sorcery, the mysticism will take care of itself I reckon.

So, yes you have to take care of the gas bill, but it doesn't take precedence over your magic. They are as important as each other, which is why I was saying it's a web or net rather than heirarchy.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
19:03 / 03.08.06
Start with the sorcery, the mysticism will take care of itself I reckon.

And yet my OTO friends would happily tell you about a former running buddy of theirs who tried crossing the Abyss (whatever that actually entails) and ended up a homeless crack addict. I think there's a real danger in getting getting caught up in your magic and forgetting to take care of mundane life/your sanity. I mean, this is an extremely well-documented phenomenon, and I don't think there's really much contesting it.

On the other hand, I do agree that you don't need to be a well-groomed triathlete/investment banker in a fulfilling relationship with a sexy physicist who likes threesomes to feel "ready" to do magic. As I see it, the emphasis should be more on your trajectory than on your coordinates, so to speak. Don't ask where you're at, or if you've reached the heights; ask which way you're heading. Are you on your way up, towards greater stability and/or happiness? If so, magic away. Or are you spiraling downward? If so, maybe you've got some things you should work on first.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
20:07 / 03.08.06
Hi people. First of all i would like to apologyse from my moronity in past posts, and the moronity it will follow in future posts. Call it late-adolescence syndrome, call it spiritual emergence, or wathever.

Having readed these posts and the others on maladaptative behavior. Well, yes. I'm a maladaptative guy, and i have some interest in this areas: occultism, magick, psychedelics. But i don't feel guilty about it: I think it comes with the pack. Surely with time i'll overcome it, maybe not, but i've arrived on stage in wich I don't care about it anymore.

I don't get Maslow hierarchy of needs, and it's because it focuses exlusively on an extreme individual thinking. When i think about it I tend to think on shamanic practices and stories, in wich the top of the pyramid was connected on it lower part. You have all that stories of shamans previewing facts on tribal wars, or negative facts in the future of the tribe members, etc. And yes, supervivence depended on them.

I'm living in social *isolation* (yes, now i live on my mom house, but i've tried what is living on my own for two years). I have started to study this year, but i have no social life. But i don't care. It's part of the pack. When i feel weak, i do tend to think that i'm trying to do is IMPORTANT to society, in the way I'm trying to heal me, and health is important to society. Shamans have done it through centuries. And yes, a lot of them died on the way.

But the most isolated i've become, the most healing energies i've felt on my body. I have the intuition that it is due to the lack of sex. I mean, i have had girlfriends, but i realized that, in some way, I was parasitizing her. So, maybe, one of the stages of maslow is actually a game of parasitysm (called society). Maybe, when you don't have no one to parasytize, you learn to connect to another energies (inner, outer, or whatever), and learn to get the food from nature, from the earth. I must say that Chi-kung has tripled the success on that proccess. And that's because the shaman archetype is depicted like a lonely one.
I've been surfin' lately on concepts of parapsychology and bioplasm, and maybe it has something to be with all this.

Returning to maslow, is like that sentence, wich says: "First of all, you have to love yourself in order to love the others". I don't get it too. Because it is confusing, and creates the idea of an ego. And yes. Having an ego is important, i don't doubt it. But i think that in order to love the others, you have to understand the interconnexion of all things. The other form of love is, to me, i kind of parasytism.

So, in some way, being an maladaptative, half-ill person is a shit. But maybe it compensates you with flashes of wisdom that help you to live with illnes. Because illnes is a part of life, and our concept of living a full-healthy live is pure shit, or at least, is pure shit in the state of things now.

But adaptation comes, slowly, step by step. And when i also get deeper in that experiencies, magical or spiritual or whatever, i gain more serenity. And it fills me.

And yes. You have to pay the bills, go to the job and all mundane shit. But watch all that geniuses who have made humankind advance. Pure shit on lower levels!!
 
 
EvskiG
20:27 / 03.08.06
Now, my point is that by prioritising these things and putting magic at the bottom of an unattainable list you risk never fucking doing any.

No argument. But what I originally proposed was that:

a magical practitioner should ask and continue asking the following questions (and other related questions) throughout his or her practice, and, to the extent there are problems, should direct his or her practice to fixing those problems before worrying about camping out in Kether.

Obviously, there's nothing wrong with practicing magic before all of one's critical (and not-so-critical) deficiency needs are met, or before one feels stable or successful.

What I'm saying is that it's ideal to build one's magical practice upon a stable foundation, and that if there are practical needs to be met, perhaps some of one's magical practice should be directed towards meeting those needs before seeking more amorphous or long-term goals like enlightenment.
 
 
EmberLeo
22:27 / 03.08.06
I wouldnt mind seeing other people answer the points given if they would

I will happily take up that meme - hopefully I won't bore you with it.

Am I physically fit and healthy? Well, on the one hand, my immune system is doing just fine. I generally don't get sick. On the other hand I weigh considerably more than I should, don't get enough exercise, and am under enough stress that I don't always feel well despite my lack of infections.

I recognise that my weight problems are an area where I'm being irresponsible. The problem is that my stress levels from all the other balls I'm trying to juggle gets WAY worse when I start depriving myself of the foods I love to eat. What I need to do is find the time to exercise more, and find a way to effectively cut back on the sugar without feeling deprived.

Do I have any mental health issues that affect my ability to function on a day-to-day basis? Hypersensitivity - technically that's not a mental health issue, but that's where it shows the most. And Seasonal Affective Disorder. On the one hand, both of these seem to be amplified by my religious/magical practices. On the other hand, I find I'm happier this way. Is that weird?

Am I satisfied with my personal and romantic relationships? Mostly. I'm worried I'm not a very good girlfriend to my primary. I'm delighted with my secondary relationship. But there is a hell of a lot of stress coming from his other girlfriend, who is also a dear friend of mine. That issue by itself responsible for a lot of my health and emotional issues right now. I'm doing everything I can to fix it, but I'm kind of at a loss.

Am I satisfied with my relationship with my family? Yes, very. I'm even on improving terms with my StepMom after all these years.

Related question: Am I satisfied with my friends? Yes, but I'm not satisfied with *myself* in this area. I don't seem to have enough time. I didn't know it was possible to have too many friends, and I'm afraid I'm letting people down because there's not enough of me to go around. I'm having to learn new standards of time-management to get it all done, and I'm exhausted!

Do I enjoy what I do for a living? Well, I don't currently make a living, actually. I wouldn't say I enjoy being a college student, since I really don't like school, but I am proud of the progress I've made and am making.

Related question: Do I enjoy what I spend most of my time doing? Yes. I enjoy working with my religious community, and am currently studying for ordainment. It's doubtful I will ever get paid for the services I am learning to provide. It's pretty clear this is my vocation, however, and I am reasonably satisfied with that.

Am I happy where I live?

Mostly. I love my house, and hometown, and my friends and family are here, but lately I feel like nowhere I have to sleep really belongs to me. I have some ideas why I feel this way, but no ideas how to fix it right now.

Do I have enough money to get by? Not of my own accord, no, and that does bother me. What I have is enough support from other people who have enough money to get us by. I could theoretically stop what I'm doing and try to get a job, but that would be short-sighted of me. My progress in school is for the purpose of establishing financial solvency on my own long-run, and that's far more important.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:32 / 04.08.06
I think i over reacted a little Evski, apologies.
 
 
Ticker
02:05 / 04.08.06
I've been reading a lot lately about how interaction with the Other directly causes breaking down of structure. There seems to be a great deal of information on how the occult/supernatural/mystic is a primarily deconstructive force focused on increasing lines of liminality.

I suspect the magic/spirit workers who truly have their shit together are just people who accept the fact that they must tend to what they can and release what they cannot. This flexibilty of perception gives rise to an increased ability to adapt to the weird ass shit that shows up on your doorstep.

Having my shit together can only be measured by how far it can fall apart and still leave me able to haul it back up into a bundle. For as divination is derived from the tumble of random objects perceived in a meaningful way, so to is lot of magic about letting forms slip so they might reform.

If one is afraid of losing things and clings to structure one will most likely end up in a dogmatic religion that barracades the door to the random whirlwind.
 
 
EmberLeo
06:43 / 04.08.06
The whole control/release question is one I've been fighting on several fronts within myself for the last few years. Especially in trance related work. Even just learning how to let go enough to really get into the proper state of conciousness and still have enough control to return is really damned hard for me a lot of the time.

I've noticed that the folks I know who seem to find letting go easy don't seem to have the ability to hold on when they need to, and vice versa.

I periodically worry that if I ever do really learn to let go enough to ... well I don't know, really... that I won't be able to come back, or that my perception of what most folks call "reality" will change enough, and permanently, that it will interfere with my ability to keep the mundane shit even remotely together.

I want kids, and certain other things that require an ability to keep mundane shit together. I'm not willing to sacrifice that entirely... at least not yet.

How much is that going to keep me from making progress? I suspect the fear, more than the legitimate limitation, will hold me back.
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:27 / 04.08.06
I have experienced periods of breakdown, being blown away by winds of change, i dont think it comes down to control so much of yourself, but trusting yourself, no matter how 'altered' you become if you have that trust and faith in yourself, knowing no matter where and how you find yourself that you are ok, letting go of yourself becomes easier. realising that there is no you to let go of in the first place can be a useful perspective.

Each time you dissolve you gain insight into what you felt and thought you were, its better imo to engage with it as a conscious process rather than have life throw it in your face, although if that happens often its needed no matter how much i may complain about it.

The key for me is not trying to keep the conscious control, utilising it to begin the process, but then submitting to a deep felt unconscious trust in oneself, the unconscious( and i am still not sure thats exactly what i am talking about) seems to be governed more by emotion and imagination than logic and rationality, letting go of the forces that attempt to regulate and order the consciousness at the tip of the iceberg and engaging with emotional trust makes the process far easier.

Self compassion becomes a very useful tool to develope.
 
 
EmberLeo
09:40 / 04.08.06
I'm not sure if this will make sense, but...

I'm not afraid of losing myself, as such. At least not in a context where it helps to think there's no me to lose. I'm me, I'll be me. If I wander off, I'm who I'm with.

It's reality I'm afraid of losing contact with, not my sense of self.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
10:37 / 04.08.06
Evskig, I was just musing really, I agree with you. A good illustration of this is in the the Tarot, the two of Wands. One staff is held aloft, representing the power you're able to risk or invest, the other is bolted to the castle parapet representing the essential grounding element in life. Like walking, you need one foot on the ground or you fall down.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:26 / 04.08.06
Realities and your sense of self could be considered to be very similar things, and occasionally if your lucky or highly aware/focused the same thing. Its the idea that somehow i can be seperate from reality that creates the fear of losing touch with reality. social reality and consensual reality are different constructs in my body space to natural reality, yet they are all realities and reality.

The more you can submit to letting go, the wider your notion of reality and the many realities it contains becomes. As my realities grow into the reality that becomes me the greater my level of tolerence becomes as my perception of reality and its realities expand.
 
  
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