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What's good about The Libertines?

 
 
Jack Vincennes
16:58 / 30.07.06
Alex's Grandma in the Lily Allen thread: Kirsty Wark, Jonathan Ross and so on make a certain amount of sense, but surely the judiciary isn't buying into the idea of Pete as a poet?

This reminded me of something I've been meaning to ask for a bit. Why is Pete Doherty hailed as a superb poet, and the last of the Romantics, and so on and so forth, and not that dude from (for example) Razorlight? I am not especially familiar with The Libertines -it's pretty much been limited to hearing their singles on the radio a lot and not wanting to buy the albums on the strength of that -so maybe that's the problem. However, they still sound a bit like any other indie band. Can you, Barbelith, explain what it is that makes them more lauded than any other indie band?
 
 
uncle retrospective
17:04 / 30.07.06
*insert bile here*
 
 
The Falcon
17:45 / 30.07.06
Pete Doherty won some literary prize (my friend said it was the Pushkin, but given that's apparently only available in Russia and Scotland, it seems unlikely) when he was at school, so there is a bit of ingenue history there, I suppose.

He's going to publish a novel, you know.
 
 
The Falcon
17:47 / 30.07.06
At least, so I'm told about the prize thing, but given she got the name wrong, it just could all be nonsense. I can't find anything about it on the internets.
 
 
The Falcon
17:49 / 30.07.06
A-ha, click on more details on Pete's birthdate, to receive:

Aged 16, he won a poetry competition and travelled to Russia sponsored by the British Council.
 
 
johnny enigma
19:58 / 30.07.06
What's good about Pete Doherty and The Libertines?
Songs like "The Boy Looked At Johnny", "Can't Stand Me Now", "Don't Look Back Into The Sun" and "Fuck Forever".
However, it's a matter of personal taste as to whether you find these preferable to the songs of say, Razorlight.

Another answer to why they are hailed as better than others of their ilk is that they have better PR people. My best advice is to check out the tunes and make your own mind up, but then again, you sound like you may have done that already....
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:18 / 30.07.06
Well with the exception of the Babyshambles record, which was not so good, the music's ... all right, I suppose. There are a few genuinely good songs spread across the two Libertines albums, I'd say ('Radio America,' 'I Get Along,' 'What A Waster,' etc, although almost everyone I know IRL would disagree with that statement, forcefully,) and even their weaker stuff seems to chug along quite pleasantly in the background if you're doing something else, be it the dishes, the garden, or, er, 'horse.'

But, and this I think is at least part of the problem that people have with Pete and co, a lot of the appeal seems to be to do with something other than the music, per se. What The Libertines, and especially Pete D and his crazy antics arguably hark back to is a time, pre Napster, pre I-pod I guess - how I hate those things - when pop was a lot more personality driven, when you, as a fan, wouldn't just worry about what a band sounded like, but what they looked like, what they said in interviews and so on. What they *stood for,* in other words, although it is a bit suspect in the case of The Libs. It's no good dealing with a crack person at four in the morning, for example, and that's why my grandson is where he is.

So the way music is consumed these days is possibly a lot more healthy, in that I suppose a lot of the time, with the declining influence of the NME and such, and the sort of pick'n' mix approach that the new technology purportedly facilitates, bands tend to get judged on the last good thing they did, and don't seem to be able to inspire the same amount of brand loyalty that they could at one point - As late as the very late Nineties, you'd go off and buy the new 'band X' album out of a sense of obligation almost, even though you knew it was probably going to be awful, and it usually was. And you'd feel like a fool for being suckered again.

Nowadays that seems to happen far less often - if you can download the best tracks on an album off of the internet, and use them as a soundtrack to your own personal movie, why bother with all the extraneous detail? Similarly, if you're not going to have to read about 'band X's' bird-witted opinions, or worse still, look at the photos in the music papers (this, I appreciate, may seem very strange to people under 25, or from the States,) everything else becomes secondary to the songs.

In Pete's case though, and really, that's who we're talking about - I'm not sure if anyone's interested in Carl from The Libertine's new album - the music itself seems a bit by-the-by. I suppose a relevant comparisson might be Shane McGowan. In spite of sixteen years of glaring evidence to the contrary, and a reputation, in any case, that's only based on five or six songs, at least one of which was a cover, McGowan is still feted about the place as a poet and a genius. I doubt he's stood his own round since the early Nineties, and he certainly hasn't recorded anything all that, all that, since, but it doesn't seem to matter. There was that indefinable essence of poetry, I guess, to a few of the tunes on Shane's two decent albums, in spite of all the filler, and the same seems to apply to Jim Morrisson, and also to Pete, it appears. God only knows how he managed it really, but Doherty seems to have got to the point where he's Chatterton-esque, (sp, poss) and I suppose everyone loves that.

('Up The Bracket' is polly worth buying, Vincennes, it's more than the sum of it's parts, but, on the other hand, you have to listen to it for a while.)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:42 / 30.07.06
I think the narrative of the Pete 'n' Carl love/hate relationship may have a lot to do with their appeal. I don't know if this thread is supposed to be about finding things we can say we like about the Libertines, or putting forward theories as to why they're popular. But the only song of there's I've ever had time for is 'Can't Stand Me Now', and apart from the fact that musically it's less irritating than a lot of their other stuff, this has a lot to do with an admittedly prurient interest in the whole sorry story of housebreaking and betrayal and multiple sackings from the band and "why won't you return my calls?" etc. Add a frisson of perceived homoerotic tension/undertones and Bob's your nuncle. The Libertines have inspired NME readers to start writing/reading slash, or possibly slash writers/readers to start buying the NME (that seems more likely given the gender balance that seems to be involved). They've had other, less pleasant influential effects too...
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
09:34 / 31.07.06
As far as I'm concerned, the only bad thing the Libertines ever did was get bands like Razorlight/The Others/The Paddingtons a record deal just for being bezzy mates with Mr. Peter Doherty or Young Carlos Barat.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:01 / 31.07.06
I suppose a relevant comparisson might be Shane McGowan. In spite of sixteen years of glaring evidence to the contrary, and a reputation, in any case, that's only based on five or six songs, at least one of which was a cover, McGowan is still feted about the place as a poet and a genius. I doubt he's stood his own round since the early Nineties, and he certainly hasn't recorded anything all that, all that, since, but it doesn't seem to matter. There was that indefinable essence of poetry, I guess, to a few of the tunes on Shane's two decent albums, in spite of all the filler, and the same seems to apply to Jim Morrisson, and also to Pete, it appears.

MacGowan's reputation as a poet is based on the critical and public reaction to the five albums he did with the Pogues and the two well-received solo albums he's done since (sixty-odd songs, not five or six, and that's not including any of the traditional stuff or the stuff that the other members of the Pogues wrote). There's also the many and varied stories of visitors to his flat being gobsmacked at the amount of partial and complete songs and lyrics, none recorded or published, stacked in heaps and under dirty crockery. Nick Cave estimated that MacGowan still writes several songs a week and has done for years, he just can't be arsed to play them to anyone. The last album (The Crock Of Gold) was admittedly around nine years ago, but the rest of your statement is based entirely on your opinion that MacGowan isn't 'all that', which is highly arguable and not particularly useful.

Doherty? MacGowan in the 1980s but with indie kid good looks (skinny, pasty, indie-style dress sense etc). He's won a couple of songwriting awards, and got a lot of critical attention, so he's certainly not universally thought to be shit, as a survey of the Barb might lead you to believe. I don't really like the songs I've heard (except for Can't Stand Me Now), but give him another ten years, and you never know.

What's good about the Libertines? Barat and Doherty's relationship, combined with their looks and various self-mythologising antics and ideas that differentiated them from the usual indie swagger. While bands like Razorlight, Kasabian and (years ago) Oasis always seem to be drunk and coked out of their heads, The Libertines always seemed to be tripping, dreaming. It made them stand out for a certain kind of disaffected teenager, in the same way as the Manics' heavily politicised and angry glamour made them stand out in 1992.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
11:04 / 31.07.06
Flyboy: I don't know if this thread is supposed to be about finding things we can say we like about the Libertines, or putting forward theories as to why they're popular

It's the latter, mostly -and and well as why they are so popular, why they are so popular in a particular way. I mean, around the time Up The Bracket was released one of my friends told me they were 'fun' and 'had good swearing', and the same person told me, earlier this year, that Pete was a 'genius' and that the whole sorry affair was a 'tragedy' and that I shouldn't laugh quite so hard at his prison diaries. I suppose I was wondering by what means someone can go from 'a fun pop star who writes songs with good swearing' to 'a misunderstood genius tortured by the weight of his own brilliance'. I suppose the idea of wasted potential might have something to do with it as well -there's always a chance that a band with good songs are going to develop into something amazing, but that isn't going to happen if the band (and people in same) are falling apart.

Alex's Grandma: As late as the very late Nineties, you'd go off and buy the new 'band X' album out of a sense of obligation almost, even though you knew it was probably going to be awful, and it usually was.

There wasn't any 'probably' about it if you'd already bought the two CDs with the first single on them. It was, in many ways, a grim time.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:02 / 31.07.06
MacGowan's reputation as a poet is based on the critical and public reaction to the five albums he did with the Pogues

Not the last two, surely? I don't know if either exactly set the world on fire.

In terms of songs McGowan actually wrote, rather than covered, remove 'A Pair of Brown Eyes,' 'A Rainy Night In Soho,' 'The Fairytale Of New York,' 'The Old Main Drag,' and maybe one or two others from the oeuvre (I've always liked 'Misty Morning, Albert Bridge') and it starts to look a bit less illustrious, in my humble. Not that I've got anything against the man, and five or six great songs (admittedly, I've never been a fan of 'The Fairytale,' but still ...) is much better than nothing. His rep as a poet however, does seem based as much on who he is, really, as it is on what he's done.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:14 / 31.07.06
and that I shouldn't laugh quite so hard at his prison diaries

Your friend is not your friend. Just saying.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:09 / 01.08.06
In all fairness, Vincennes, Pete's prison memoirs were better than Archer's. They weren't as good as Oscar Wilde's musings on the same subject, but, well there you go; if Archer is black and Wilde is white, Pete occupies the grey territory in between.
 
 
johnny enigma
06:54 / 01.08.06
Ok Viv, I think I get what you are getting at now (I can call you Viv, can't I?

I think a big part of Pete's appeal (especially to teenagers) is that we haven't got many traditional rock star types in today's music scene. In the sixties or late seventies there was loads of them, nowadays it seems like all the big faces on the music scene are either mindnumbingly dull (ie James Blunt) or studiously anti-rockstar (ie Radiohead).
He's an old school boozey, druggy bad boy and there will always be a market for that.
 
 
johnny enigma
07:04 / 01.08.06
Oh, and I just realised that your name is "Vincennes" not "Vivienne". I apologise.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:46 / 02.08.06
Pete Doherty's mother has apparently accepted an advance for her 'autobiography.' It's provisionally going to be called 'The Prodigal Son,' and Pete admits to being 'a little bit scared.' And I can't say I blame him. The 'early promise' stuff will be fine, I suppose, but sooner or later it's going to get round to the 'heartbreak' material, and I imagine she'll be doing the talk show circuit fairly extensively. Poor Pete.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:29 / 04.08.06
That didn't make me wince as much as when I saw "Young Blood: The Story of The Killers" or something, in a bookshop, once.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:55 / 04.08.06
Alex's Grandma: As late as the very late Nineties, you'd go off and buy the new 'band X' album out of a sense of obligation almost, even though you knew it was probably going to be awful, and it usually was.

Vincennes: There wasn't any 'probably' about it if you'd already bought the two CDs with the first single on them. It was, in many ways, a grim time.


Strong truth.

I always found the Libertines' music too annoying to listen to (I think it was their weedy voices plus constant 'uh-uh-oh-oh's) so can't really proffer an opinion worth anything. However, as others have said, mutually destructive homoerotic relationships are always a draw.
 
 
Janean Patience
21:06 / 07.08.06
It's the relationship between the frontmen and the capturing of that on record that makes them. It's slightly disingenuous to say they're no better than Razorlight etc musically; The Libertines wrote wonderful punk/pop songs, at once rebellious and perfect for singing along to while you clean the bathroom.

The first album made their name with the hardcore fans, and I think it was that determination to have a relationship with the fans that made them honest. Which in turn led to the second album, where the creative splits that fuel rock mythology were caught on record. Can't Stand Me Now is well known, Music When The Lights Go Out is kind of elegaic, and What Became Of The Likely Lads? is at once bitter and funny, kind of like Kesey's Merry Pranksters singing "We blew it!"

It's a combination not much more unique than Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, or the Manics' Holy Bible. Good pop songs and painful dissolution.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
15:45 / 09.08.06
Um. It's not disingenuous if you actually believe it...
 
 
Janean Patience
17:18 / 09.08.06
It's not disingenuous if you actually believe it...

Yeah, fair enough. Hard, though, to argue with something as subjective as music. What's good, catchy pop? What's better catchy pop?

Pete Doherty's high profile is, in the main, because of his media-friendly antics. The music press loved him because he was an indie kid who did crack (just like Ol' Dirty Bastard!) and in the national press, he was a crack in Kate Moss's tabloid-proof fortress. That's partly why he's so lauded; everyone knows who he is.

I do find this thread's title disingenuous, though. To ask, "What's good about the Libertines?" conceals the subtext: "because it sure ain't their music..."
 
  
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