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Modern chemicals and magical realisation

toughest, fastest, fatest

03:56 / 28.07.06

I have always found that I find magical thinking easier to 'use' after getting out of it on mushrooms or mescaline - I don't subscribe to any particular shamanic belief system, it's just what seems to work for me.
Has anyone tried to do the same with drugs like MDMA and acid on here? what were the results? Also what about cocaine, even caffeine, after all they lead to altered states as well.

when using pure MDMA in particular I have often found myself hallucinating incredible occult imagery, even when I had been in a totally unmagical frame of mind beforehand.
Cocaine on the otherhand may not induce hallucinations as such (although when combined with extreme sleep deprivation it can add a crystal clarity to hypnogogic states)but it does of course induce feelings of intense self confidence, it could be used for overiding any weaknesses of ego?

I'm just thinking aloud really...

15:49 / 28.07.06

I have a few problems with your opening post, specifically the implication that mushrooms/trips = shamanic visions. I'm not saying that forcing altered states with chemicals isn't useful, but there's a context, a relationship, and a ritual procedure to establish before you'll begin to approach anything that could be called "shamanic". Just necking a few tabs or whatever isn't sufficient.

And "incredible hallucinations"? They're fun, sure. The question is: Do they impart anything useful to you? I'd be careful about attributing too much to them unless and until you've got a statement of intent behind them at the very least.

18:07 / 28.07.06

I will disagree a little bit with monk here. A fistful of mushrooms eaten in a forest will, in all likelihood, induce a typical shamanic state. Though maybe I should back up a bit and suggest that we try to converge on some common definition of just what constitutes a traditional shamanic experience. Is it the prelude - the chants, rituals, invocations, IE the context? Or is it the content of the visions? What defines a "shamanic" vision versus a profane one? Or is it the resultant interpretation and subsequent social communication and efficacy of the information retrieved from the experience? Are all of these necessary for a "shamanic experience", or is it enough to have your head blown open, communicate with nature spirits, FEEL the interconnectedness of all things, pass into hell and be revealed unto heaven, then come down and try to figure out what the hell just happened?

20:28 / 28.07.06

Well, I think the addition of 'in a forest' does add a context to the proceedings, and had padraig mentioned that I probably wouldn't have piped up. I do think there needs to be some intent accompanying the ingestion of whatever. I've taken mundane(?) trips, and I've taken trips when I've specifically asked the drug of choice, "What do you have to teach me today?" I'd count the latter as "shamanic", but I will admit the former had their moments. Those moments weren't near as powerful, tho if I'm honest, I'll admit that I didn't really apply the tidbits or consider them relevant outwith the trip experience. It took me asking for it and getting it shoved right in my face to make me stop and realize something had, in fact, given me something of great and lasting value.

So yeah, I'd argue that there does need to be a prelude even if it's only a "please may I...". I think if we're going to do these things, we need to prepare ourselves and treat the substances we're using with respect. But I do agree that interpreting what's happened and bringing it back to the community are important. Hell, it's necessary, especially if we're defining what we do as "shamanic".

02:38 / 29.07.06

What came first - the shaman or the shroom?

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05:57 / 29.07.06

Something about this thread is making me headdesk, and I can't articulate it yet.

But here are some other threads that might be of use:

Club Magick (E, mention of Acid)

Shamanism help

DMT (a lot of good drug info here too it looks like)

Suggest-a-psychedelic

Smart drinks although sadly, the thread doesn't seem to have much info.

_+&*: Nimbus Fool :*&+_

06:42 / 29.07.06

One time I proposed to a 'dyrad' after taking a large dose of acid and smoking DMT earlier in the night. I was sitting there under these vines and I swear I could hear them growing and it was pleasant. The subtle breath of the interconected universe washed over me. Then lo! This gorgeous tree seemed to call to me and I put a ring of twigs around its branch. I had seen this woman kind of super-imposed over the tree.

Understandably the state of mind I was in of course was fried out of control. Walking around was like swimming as if my body noticed the 'weight' of the air surrounding me. I was more than content before being disturbed to simply melt, and enjoy melting.
From all my experience with cocaine I haven't found any value in the effects, other than some possible sexual uses to prolong estatic orgasm. It really should be something that you won't crave, the spirit of cocaine is wanton!

MDMA - depends on what it is cut with?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:55 / 29.07.06

Also some useful stuff in this thread.

16:18 / 29.07.06

Thank you both for those links. I'm lovin'.

id, you've piqued my curiosity. Looking forward to your input here.

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17:19 / 29.07.06

I guess I'm just really frustrated with loose use of the word "shamanism" right now. Which is odd, because I tend to use the word pretty generally myself. And it really seems in this thread as if shamanism is all about psychoactive substances, when I'm pretty sure that, by the same loose way we're using the word shamanism, much of shamanism has nothing to do with that.

Not, of course, that there's anything wrong with using psychoactive substances for trancework, but there's nothing "unshamanic" about not doing so.

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23:21 / 29.07.06

if you mean bridging a gap - yes
I think a lot depends on the the " intent " though of the person involved what you say is little vague..

I know someone who has used chemicals to heal if that counts but they were / are very experinced so to say that some regular joe could emulate him is prob unlikely -

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toughest, fastest, fatest

23:55 / 29.07.06

I have a few problems with your opening post, specifically the implication that mushrooms/trips = shamanic visions. I'm not saying that forcing altered states with chemicals isn't useful, but there's a context, a relationship, and a ritual procedure to establish before you'll begin to approach anything that could be called "shamanic". Just necking a few tabs or whatever isn't sufficient

Yes, I'm fully aware of the trappings that actually constitute shamanic practice, and I'm aware that psychoactive substances are not the be all and end all of the experience.

I left the question open ended however so that people replying could automatically 'cut n paste' their own outlook to their answers, sort of to avoid the thread becoming an argument about what 'shamanism' actually is. I should have made that clearer in the opening post.

toughest, fastest, fatest

00:09 / 30.07.06

I will disagree a little bit with monk here. A fistful of mushrooms eaten in a forest will, in all likelihood, induce a typical shamanic state

Hmmm, I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're saying here. I agree with monk and the other contributers that there probably are certain actions and intents that are required for a full experience. But I'm not sure that going into the forest or getting close to nature is a nessecity. I live in urban north London - and I think an important and sometimes misunderstood element of magic is not the need to get close to the wilderness, but to get close to your environment. For me that means Broadwater Farm estate, turkish supermarkets and Downhills Park. I think you need to be comfortable with your location and to develop a sense of place whether you're in the country or the city.
Psychogeography (just to derail a little) is a useful tool imo to both disorient yourself and familiarise yourself with your surroundings - that is surely an element of shamanism.
Just think if those beliefs were still prevelent we could be seeing transit van loads of blindfolded adolescents being driven to Shadwell and challenged to make it back on foot to Walthamstow or somewhere...

Cheers for the replies anyway they've given me a lot to think about.

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00:37 / 30.07.06

Hmmm, I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're saying here. I agree with monk and the other contributers that there probably are certain actions and intents that are required for a full experience. But I'm not sure that going into the forest or getting close to nature is a nessecity. I live in urban north London - and I think an important and sometimes misunderstood element of magic is not the need to get close to the wilderness, but to get close to your environment. For me that means Broadwater Farm estate, turkish supermarkets and Downhills Park. I think you need to be comfortable with your location and to develop a sense of place whether you're in the country or the city.

Well it depends the setting might also play a part in the experince also , i noted for me positives during the day usually as opposed to night..

What do you mean by your enviroment ?

Are you talking powerspots here or just places you are climatised too ?

I agree feeling comfortable is important , sometimes unpredictable things can happen and having something you can get a fix on certainly helps if the experince is a bad one..

Sitters can also be plus there too

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