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Art is Dangerous

 
  

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*
23:16 / 23.07.06
Triggered by this article on the BBC website:

Two people have been killed and 13 injured after a giant, inflatable sculpture blew free from its moorings.

Many were inside the artwork, which consists of connected rooms, when it lifted 30ft into the air at Riverside Park, Chester-le-Street, County Durham.


Well, this piece itself, prior to the accident, didn't seem to me to have much to say— it's big, inflatable, colorful, and you can walk in it. It's rather nice to look at. It doesn't say much, as I might have hoped, about the potential for alternative forms of housing. It might say a little something about space, public vs. private, and how we enclose it... or not.

But now that this very upsetting thing has occurred, it's made me think about whether art, to be successful, needs to be dangerous in some way— hopefully not in terms of costing human lives, but somehow threatening to other social structures, or in violation of a feeling of safety and comfort many people have with the status quo. I think that a sculpture which people could walk around in or on which suddenly relocated itself, without that being expected by the people experiencing the art, would convey a really interesting message about the relationship people assume with art— that they're entitled to experience it in particular ways, that it's just an object, and that they are supposed to be in control of how they experience art. But obviously that message is less important than the lives of the people who died in this accident.
 
 
unbecoming
00:27 / 24.07.06
I think that it is very difficult to propose an ethical judgement on art i.e. "art should be.." because if you're not careful you end up mired in a discussion of the myriad potential functions it can take.

That said, for me, one of the most valuable avenues for art is to challenge and critique the existing societal structures of any given time. my opinion is that art should push the boundaries of what people are used to and force us to reconsider our casual assumptions. In this way the structure of the art world can provide a space for some pretty unique individuals to produce subversive gestures which, although challenging, are disseminated through a legtitimate channel.

I would say this is true of the Vienna Actionists, later american artists like Paul McCarthy and, i geuss, the Chapman Bros.

but i suppose there are different forms of challenge to the existing structure; I'm not really up to providing an exhaustive list at this precise moment but some ideas that immediately spring to mind for discussion would be:

stomache churning body art such as Chris Burden shooting himself in the arm link or Orlan's bizzare surgery work link

Then there's the aesthetics of shock such as The Chapman Bros. or that Dali painting that featured excrement when that was a major taboo in painting.

There's also work which shocks because of the nature of the work itself, (the "I could have done that" factor) such as Tracy Emin's bed.

Or work that shocks the art institution itself (The impressionists' depiction of prostitutes, Duchamp's Fountain)

Sorry for the ramble, i think this an interesting subject, will try to cohere my thoughts more.
 
 
astrojax69
03:24 / 24.07.06
as keats said,

beauty is truth, truth beauty
that is all ye know and all ye need to know



for mine, perhaps the most profound lines in [english] literature.

art should at once be both truth and beauty. and truth can be dangerous, of course. often is. even if it can also be simply self-evident and so merely beautiful.

i know it wasn't meant literally, but the unfortiunate incident with the inflatable rooms isn't the kind of danger art should thus instantiate. that's just occ health and safety..!

but great art deals heavily in great ideas [as well as great craft] and, of course, great ideas can bring great change. cultural shifts. we define, in part, our cultures by their art, but not all art need be paradigmatic or we'd forever be in flux!
 
 
*
07:47 / 24.07.06
I don't think Keats really has it. There's plenty of room for the beautiful in art, of course, and I even value things I think are beautiful for the sake of their beauty. I also like to see truth in art, but the truth isn't always beautiful and the beautiful isn't always true. It would be beautiful if the US were currently a peaceful and altruistic nation putting its resources towards ensuring justice for all on a global scale, but that isn't true, and a piece of art uncritically echoing that lie would not be something I would value or enjoy. What I value as "good art" is certainly not going to be universal, nor should it be, but I think everyone makes distinctions as to what kinds of art they value more than others, and I think there are good (in the sense of reasonable, useful, informed) criteria on which to make those distinctions and criteria which are not good (in the sense of reasonable, useful, and informed).

Hester: Thanks for those links. I thiiiink what I'm getting out of them so far is that even if "danger" of some sort helps, it's insufficient by itself.

Also, just to reemphasize, yeah, although this accident got me thinking about the place of risk in art, it's definitely not something I would like to see more of.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:44 / 24.07.06
Although I agree it's good when art makes us think and defies the boundaries of what is acceptable, and I also agree that pretty art is more pleasant than ugly art (in general), to me art is everything that expresses the artists' inner feelings, their souls and minds, shwoing them to the world through some sort of craft. The audience "likes" it, or "gets" it when they are to some level in tune with the artist sensibilities. So, a distressed or engaged or revolt artist wil produce distressing or engagins or revolting art, ans so forth.

Dangerous art, thus, is reserved for those in the most extreme ends of the spectrum. It is necessary (and, given the Bell Curve of healthily distributed systems - including, hopefully, human culture - it is also innevitable) that there's at least some of it, but it's good not to exagerate, specially because to much dangerous art it would be, I imagine, the result of a society with some very big problems and in serious need of some therapy.

Which, one might argue, is exactly the case of Western culture in general now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:08 / 24.07.06
Could you provide examples of dangerous art and/or dangerous artists, DM?
 
 
astrojax69
22:13 / 24.07.06
i dunno, id, i think that truth is always beautiful; though of course not in the sacchrine 'pretty' sense of the word... beauty won through hard truths are often the most beautiful.

i defy you to nominate a work of art you think is great, that is a great truth, which you yet think is not beautiful.
 
 
Dead Megatron
01:46 / 25.07.06
Could you provide examples of dangerous art and/or dangerous artists, DM?

This is completely besides my point, which is fully theoretical and generical. You decide for yourself what art you find is dangerous...
 
 
*
08:27 / 25.07.06
Hm, I don't know what Haus meant by his question, but I'd be interested in hearing what art or artists fit your definition of "dangerous," since that's something I'm wrestling with myself. Don't feel constrained to classic hanging-on-a-wall-in-a-gallery type art by any means.

An artist of my acquaintance performed a piece where he handed strangers a razor with which to shave his head. I feel like that was dangerous; certainly I would have felt at risk in some way. Even if people weren't inclined to take liberties with him because they tend to view people who are performing art as something akin to an art object, an accident with a razor could be nasty and scalp wounds bleed a lot. But he felt otherwise. He said that going outside every day was more risky; in the panopticon of the gallery, people were less likely to cause him harm than they would otherwise be.

And astrojax, at the moment I'm not sure the word "beautiful," unmodified, has any meaning at all. I don't think I can respond to your challenge. You have a very valid point— if "beauty" is whatever is valued, and "truth" is valued, then maybe they are interchangeable.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:44 / 25.07.06
I don't think Keats really has it. There's plenty of room for the beautiful in art, of course, and I even value things I think are beautiful for the sake of their beauty. I also like to see truth in art, but the truth isn't always beautiful and the beautiful isn't always true.

It would be beautiful if the US were currently a peaceful and altruistic nation putting its resources towards ensuring justice for all on a global scale, but that isn't true, and a piece of art uncritically echoing that lie would not be something I would value or enjoy.


And of course we lie to ourselves and propagate all sorts of myths all the time, to get money and power. But if a piece of art destroyed that myth in some way, would there not be beauty resulting from truth? Is that not why we describe a poem or painting as beautiful, when it uses the "magic"- the vibrations, feedback loops and rhythms- of words or colours to reveal a truth to us that is normally hidden by the status quo?

When you say you can appreciate something as beautiful even if it isn't true, I find it hard to beleive that that noptional something is not true in some way or other. For example, one finds a film or pop star "beautiful", even though we know that is not what the everyday human being looks like, or even what the actor looks like everyday- we know that Johnny Depp as Cap'n Jack is not Johnny Depp himself, he is a fictional character. Yet, does he not reveal a fundamentally truthful "alive-ness", comedy, sexuality, whatever, which is in each of us? And this could be Nancy Sinatra or Anita Ekberg or Gwen Stefani or Sid Vicious or anyone, the point is the same.

I think it was either Ibis or Alas who pointed out that crafts have been wrongly seen as incapable of reaching great truths- they are beautiful "only on the surface", or "as objects". I disagree: a nice vase reveals to us the truth of the line of beauty, the truth of which particular forms humans find appealing.

Likewise, are the Mayan carvings 100% truthful depictions of real historical events? You would have to ask the people who built it. Is that what Lady Xoc actually looked like? Did the Serpent really rise up and open it's mouth to her, and did the ancestors really appear in the jaws? Even though we can't be sure if the depictions are "true", do they not speak to us about a fundamental, general truth of the old "human condition"- that is, the truths of Mythos as opposed to the truths of Logos?

(pretentious)Is beauty a static thing, or is it an event, a revelation that exists as part of an animated network of revelations?(/pretentious)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:54 / 25.07.06
Hm, I don't know what Haus meant by his question

Well, I pretty much meant that it's very easy to make statements about art without actually having any knowledge of artworks, in the same way that I could say that all hip-hop was misogynistic without having anything I could cite to support that viewpoint. A "totally theoretical and generical" comment about art is also likely to be one of limited utility, because art is not only a classification but also a body of works. In the same vein, Astrojax's claims seem to be unmoored to any reference to actual pieces of art. It's like talking about football without any reference to specific instances of football being played or footballers - there's not a huge amount you can meaningfully say.

So. Can we find a piece of art (let's skip the "great", which is subjective) that is true but not beautiful? I'd say yes. How about Damien Hirst's One Thousand Years. It's a cow's head covered in maggots. The maggots spawn, become flies, lay eggs and are killed by an electrified ring. Is it beautiful? I'd say no. Is it true? Inasmuch as it makes a true statement, yes. Ergo, if we take these statements to be correct, then the status of truth as beauty and beauty as truth is not in fact all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know - quod erat demonstrandum.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:14 / 25.07.06
Hm, I don't know what Haus meant by his question, but I'd be interested in hearing what art or artists fit your definition of "dangerous,"

Yeah, I'm not sure if "dangerous" is the best term for us to use because it implies some sort of physical damage can fall upon the artist or the audience. Maybe "risky" or edgy" cam work better, I don't know.

And we don't have to be go very far to find examples of "edgy" art: I find Edvard Munch's "The Scream" edgy as hell, for instance, as well as sculptures made out of human cadavers also count. But I'm no expert

Well, I pretty much meant that it's very easy to make statements about art without actually having any knowledge of artworks, in the same way that I could say that all hip-hop was misogynistic without having anything I could cite to support that viewpoint. A "totally theoretical and generical" comment about art is also likely to be one of limited utility, because art is not only a classification but also a body of works. In the same vein, Astrojax's claims seem to be unmoored to any reference to actual pieces of art. It's like talking about football without any reference to specific footballs, games of football or footballers. Without reference points, you find yourself uncritically recycling a debased form of R.G. Collingwood's expression theory, as DM has done.

Well, i have never heard of Collingwood until you mentioned, but after checking wikipedia for him, I have to say I agree with him that "any artwork is essentially an expression of emotion". Is that so bad? And although art is indeed a body of work, I was in this instance talking about art as a classification.

Oh, and for the record, I never said all hip-hop is mysoginistic, nor do I think astrojax is some sort of monomaniac who only understands football analogies.

So. Can we find a piece of art (let's skip the "great", which is subjective) that is true but not beautiful?

Isn't beauty also subjective? I know I personally find scarification as a form of body art really "not-beautiful", but many people like it very much, the same way other people dislike tattoos, which I like. It's all too iffy to pinpoint specific instances without being subjective. So, "beauty is truth"? I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:25 / 25.07.06
Shockingly, on this one I agree with you. "Beauty is truth, truth beauty" is about on a par with "Morality is humidity, humidity moraility" in terms of overall comprehension. I'm sure that if you looked about a bit you could find sombody who thought a load of maggots on a cow's head was beautiful, or more easily somebody who would say that it was not true, for whatever value of true is required.

On Collingwood - the thing about expression theory is that it's expressly unconvincing, and does not actually engage with the creation of the work of art - again, it's not that you are talking about art as a classification, but that you are talking about art as a classification without any non-user-defined properties. In this case, the artwork is portrayed as some sort of conch or conduit, with the emotion of the artist at one end and the emotional receptors of the audience at the other. If you can look at the artwork and decide based on it accurately what the artist felt when they made it, it's good art, otherwise it isn't. This actually serves to remove the nature of the art object as object completely - hence the problem with not talking about artworks when talking about art.

As soon as you actually start looking at art works, expression theory fallls apart. First, because as it turns out a lot of art does not reflect a particular emotional or mental state. For example, Holbein's Ambassadors. What does that tell you about the artist's soul or mind? Looking at it, do you think that he clearly really liked bald men? Richard Dadd produced colourful, intricate scenes of woodland populated by sprites and fairies. He also killed his father in a public park in the belief that he was Satan. Henry Darger lived a quiet life as a janitor despite filling his pictures with violence, explosions and girlls with winkies. Munch, on the other hand, managed not to take his own life despite regularly having pints with Ibsen and Strindberg.

So, the idea of the artwork as a kind of wormcast left by the artist's emotional state - something the perfection of which can primarily be determined by how accurately you can judge the shape of its former occupant - suffers from the fatal sins of being both simplistic and inaccurate - one can usually work around one, but not both.

id: Your friend's approach reminds me of the work of Marina Abramovich, as I imagine it is supposed to. Which leads us back into the idea of "dangerous" art - personally dangerous, dangerous to how people perceive art and dangerous to how people think outside art. Thhe exhibit I'm thinking of in particular is Rhythm 0, in which the audience were invited to use 72 objects provided on the body of the artist. If I recall aright, the exhibition was called off when somebody pushed a loaded pistol into her mouth - a loaded pistol that she had provided, lest we forget, and a mouth that she had made available. Somebody walked away from that exhibition having put a loaded pistol in another human being's mouth, and everybody present saw that happen and had to understand it is a piece of art, as an interaction between a spectator and an artwork, as an act of transgressive violence... that strikes me as physically but also conceptually dangerous artwork. She was probably actually in more danger in Rhythm 5, when she lay in the centre of a burning wooden star and had to be rescued by her audience when she passed out, but that doesn't strike me as saying quite such awkward things... so there's a balance there between physical endangerment and the endangerment of the "space" that allows for the handy relationship of art and not-art, art and artist, body of artist and body of work...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:49 / 25.07.06
Haus, what do you think about my comment? I'm interested...
 
 
Dead Megatron
13:32 / 25.07.06
In this case, the artwork is portrayed as some sort of conch or conduit, with the emotion of the artist at one end and the emotional receptors of the audience at the other. If you can look at the artwork and decide based on it accurately what the artist felt when they made it, it's good art, otherwise it isn't.

I agree with you in part. You assess my core argument correctly, but you simplify to much its practical consequences. The art, although being the end result of the artist emotional state, it is flitered by many layers or gates of control: the artist rationalization of his feelings, his general philosophical and/or political approach of life and society, his tecniques, the art industry, the presentation venue (museum? gallery? the streets?), and media, to name some but quite possibly not all. to say a piece of art is "good" or "bad" depending on its ability to expose correctly the artist emotional state is to underestimate greatly the complexity of the art, the artist's, the audience's, maybe all humankind's, not to mention it is also a subjective parameter. The artist, for instance, may not wish to make his emotional state clearly known, as well as his rational intents, so the final piece is cryptic, and still be "great" art. And there are, of course, cases in which the emotional component is diminished, as it may be the case with portraits, such as The Ambassador, a kind of art that is often associated with made in exchange for payment. In those cases, tecnique prevails, and it can make some very pleasant to see pictures, but with very little meaning (thus, certainly not "edgy" or "dangerous").

This actually serves to remove the nature of the art object as object completely - hence the problem with not talking about artworks when talking about art.

I'm not sure that I concur that it is a problem. It certainly is a cartesian, non-holistic form of approaching the arts, but so what? It is a method. Why can't i talk about the art object as art alone, and not an object? Do I have to talk about everything everytime? I though the idea that there's always a "bigger picture" to be considered in any theory was implied.

As soon as you actually start looking at art works, expression theory fallls apart. First, because as it turns out a lot of art does not reflect a particular emotional or mental state. For example, Holbein's Ambassadors. What does that tell you about the artist's soul or mind? Looking at it, do you think that he clearly really liked bald men? Richard Dadd produced colourful, intricate scenes of woodland populated by sprites and fairies. He also killed his father in a public park in the belief that he was Satan. Henry Darger lived a quiet life as a janitor despite filling his pictures with violence, explosions and girlls with winkies. Munch, on the other hand, managed not to take his own life despite regularly having pints with Ibsen and Strindberg.

As said above, there are many other factor to be considered, and many subleties as well. You seem to assume that everybody acts straightfowardly according to current state of mind, without reflection. That people don't repress some feeling in real life that they express through art. That other people may live violent lives, but may not have rich inner lives that don't seem to fit. You seem to undermine the complexity of reality in favor of theoretical clarity. That too doens't hold water under close scrutiny.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:39 / 25.07.06
I don't seem to assume any of that, or rather I only seem to assume it to you. I'm saying that your statement - So, a distressed or engaged or revolt artist wil produce distressing or engagins or revolting art, ans so forth - is toss. As it turns out, you now appear to agree that it is toss, and I'm glad that I helped you to realise that.

Back ASAP, Legba.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:03 / 25.07.06
Yeah, it was a toss. A bad attempt at crafting a maxim, I guess.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:22 / 25.07.06
MAXIMUM TOSS!

On the plus side, I did very much enjoy being accused of undermin[ing] the complexity of reality in favor of theoretical clarity in the same post that I was criticised for asking you to relate your sweeping statements about art to any actual art experienced by human beings. Comedy gold, dude. Comedy gold.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:35 / 25.07.06
I aim to please
 
 
unbecoming
15:00 / 25.07.06
do you think a thread about truth and beauty in art would be valuable at this stage?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:15 / 25.07.06
Quite possibly. I think we're in danger of getting sidetracked...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:42 / 25.07.06
And of course we lie to ourselves and propagate all sorts of myths all the time, to get money and power. But if a piece of art destroyed that myth in some way, would there not be beauty resulting from truth? Is that not why we describe a poem or painting as beautiful, when it uses the "magic"- the vibrations, feedback loops and rhythms- of words or colours to reveal a truth to us that is normally hidden by the status quo?

When you say you can appreciate something as beautiful even if it isn't true, I find it hard to beleive that that noptional something is not true in some way or other. For example, one finds a film or pop star "beautiful", even though we know that is not what the everyday human being looks like, or even what the actor looks like everyday- we know that Johnny Depp as Cap'n Jack is not Johnny Depp himself, he is a fictional character. Yet, does he not reveal a fundamentally truthful "alive-ness", comedy, sexuality, whatever, which is in each of us? And this could be Nancy Sinatra or Anita Ekberg or Gwen Stefani or Sid Vicious or anyone, the point is the same.


OK. I think, from my POV, there are a couple of things going on here. Whereas the original posit was "beauty is truth, truth beauty", you seem instead to be aiming for "something of beauty and something of truth can coexist in the same object". So, Captain Jack is beautiful, but there is also a quality of truthfulness in the performance - it resonates with our inner pirate, in effect.

Your previous example - in which a piece of art shatters an illusion - you see as truth existing as a result of beauty. First up, I'd want to sort out what truth means here. 2+2=4 is true in the sense that the proposition its elements contain are irreducibly correct in that relationship. "London is the capital of England" is true in another way. "I hate you" is true in another way (assuming I do hate you). I think art can be true, or make people think true things, or make people want truth, in a number of different ways. On the other hand, I don't think that this si truth _being_ beauty, so much as something which may be beautiful (or may not - see the maggoty cow's head) inclining people to seek truth, as two separate things. Of course, it depends how far you're prepared to throw your definition of truth and how closely you want to be able to interrelate it with beauty before you accept that x=y. Put another way - the truth of a baobab tree sculpted from shell casings is different from the truth of a picture of Myra Hindley made up of children's handprints.

Then there's danger. Both the above might be dangerous, inasmuch as they make the viewer less able not to think about or more aware of an uncomfortable truth/datum/sensation. Is this the limit of danger?
 
 
*
17:38 / 25.07.06
I'd like to continue this discussion, but I don't actually know anything about art. Is that okay?

Assuming it is— Yeah, Haus, Marina Abramovich, whom I'd never heard of before, seems to embody exactly the type of thing I'm thinking about. But I think Rhythm 5 also has something potentially dangerous to say about art— it says the audience has to make a choice between whether they value the art or the artist more, because they had to destroy the piece to save the artist. I can imagine there was some hesitation and uncertainty (probably of the "is this real? is this art? is this both art and real?" variety), and showing the audience their own hesitation to save someone's life probably had a pretty emotional effect. On the other hand, she may not have intended for any of that to happen. Is art still being effective when its core message is unintentional?
 
 
unbecoming
18:02 / 25.07.06
Is art still being effective when its core message is unintentional?

I think it can be effective, as art can have a wide variety of different effects on society and can be recieved in a variety of effective ways.

I would say that most art usually fails to communicate the definitive core message of the authorial intention 100%. Alot of recent art takes a more pluralistic approach to engender different possible readings, this is what the YBA in general were very good at; they often combined some aesthetics or harvested cultural citations to provoke a variety of different reactions in the viewers, dependant on their (the viewer's) cultural positioning. I think in these cases the skill of the artist lies in their control of this body of possible readings and the way in which they keep these readings reigned in.

For example, in The Marina Abramovich piece, the end result and effect of the work could not have been predicted by the artist since the work was entirely dependant on the actions of the audience, therfore it was their intent that formed the artwork as they came in and used the different impliments available to them to participate in the work.

However, the piece was reigned in by the limitations the artist had set on possible gestures through the limitation of the different components she had made available to the audience. i.e. a loaded gun could not have been put in her mouth as part of the art work if she had not made it available in the first place.

In terms of dangerous art i would say that this is manifest in artists who create work which engender readings of culture which illuminate neglected discourse or puncture the casual acceptance of dominant discourse
 
 
unbecoming
19:35 / 25.07.06
Is this the limit of danger?
I don't think this audience reaction is the limit of danger in art because art can be dangerous to political institutions and ideologies. i'm thinking of that Langlands and Bell piece in a recent turner prize show that depicted a trial in afghanistan. (the video was censored for being too current)
 
 
*
20:16 / 25.07.06
It occurs to me that another example might be the Jyllands-Posten cartoons, which triggered protests which killed 139 people, among other negative consequences. That's dangerous art, I suppose, although the mere fact of its danger does not necessarily make it worthwhile.
 
 
astrojax69
22:54 / 25.07.06
well legba, i liked your comments...

and on your comment, haus:
maggots spawn, become flies, lay eggs and are killed by an electrified ring. Is it beautiful? I'd say no., as you foreshadowed, some people might say, yes. which of you, then is right?

at some level, the magic of life spawning from some mechanism right before our eyes, and the fragility of that life, demonstrated by hirst's perhaps overly demonstrative use of electicity [itself perhaps a beautiful mystery of our world], is all a thing, or things, of real beauty. and i use 'real' advisedly here.

i understand that the art uses imagery that is seemingly and deliberately un-beautiful. but this is played out against our cultural assumptions of beautiful, rather in the sacchrine pretty sense i used above, rather than in the abiding sense of beauty as we assign to universal beauty, like sunsets, planets, the majesty of nature. kant wrote on beauty, i must re-read it...

and i am curious, why do you think beauty/truth themes don't belong, indeed 'sidetrack', this discussion? hirst's deliberate use of culturally offensive maggots; this is confronting for pretty well every londoner perhaps - but would an indigenous papuan, maybe, who might come across this aspect of nature in their environment all the time, have the same reaction? the 'danger' of the work is the same aspect that is the truth, and the danger is a cultural statement. the truth would be there anyway.
 
 
astrojax69
02:56 / 26.07.06
without too much time to delve further, here is kant's definition of beauty:

Definition of the Beautiful derived from the First Moment.

Taste is the faculty of estimating an object or a mode of representation by means of a delight or aversion apart from any interest. The object of such a delight is called beautiful.


(excerpted from critique of judgement)


rather seems to me that, for kant, our 'beauty' is something that resides in the thing itself. so for us, the questions are: did we put it in the art work? or is it inherent in the nature of what we use to construct a given artwork? and is it dangerous of us to put it in? do we have a choice?? [i mean 'we' as the creator of the 'art'; that can be artist and/or viewer - questions remain the same]


happy to move this to another thread if anyone thinks it better suited elsewhere... id? your idea kicked us off...
 
 
*
03:43 / 26.07.06
Hester was kind enough to start one, astrojax. It's right under this one currently.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:55 / 26.07.06
Right - so for Kant beauty cannot be dangerous - so, Kant is basically denying the logic of your first statement, right? That truth is beauty, and that truth can be dangerous, therefore beauty can be dangerous.

So, from Kant's point of view, something would need to be intended to be a "subject of aesthetic experience", kind of thing, to be beautiful. Is A Thousand Years a subject of aesthetic experience? Probably, yes, but I'd say in a different way from, say, a portrait by John Singer Seargent. For those who haven't seen A Thousand Years, it looks like this:

Picture link

Personally, not an object of aesthetic pleasure, but possibly a functional item the function of which is the creation of an aesthetic effect, which is something Kant wasn't really dealing with...
 
 
unbecoming
10:25 / 26.07.06
The Jyllands-Posten cartoons are an excellent example of dangerous art to consider i think. They definitely challenge the status quo and violate taboos but the consequences that arose from this were terrible. I find this causes an ethical quandry; on the one hand i feel that an artist should have freedom of expression but on the other i can't condone work which causes such a violent reaction.
In this case should art push the boundaries of the acceptable instead of trying to blow them away?
 
 
alas
00:22 / 27.07.06
I need to read this thread more carefully, but the topic immediately reminded me of this NYTimes book review, by Barry Gewen, entitled "State of the Art," (11 Dec 2005)* in which Gewen provides an extended review of recent books by several key art critics, some of whom are skeptical of the claim that art must be "dangerous."

The reviewer himself uses the review to suggest, in fact, that the argument "art must be dangerous," and its pal "it's all individual expression," are ultimately shallow and simplistic. Not only have they resulted in much bad art that has little else than shock value going for it, but they have undermined the ability of art to speak to a broader audience, thereby limiting at least its direct influence on the culture.

Here's the heart of his argument, as I see it, and I've italicized what I take to the sentences that seem most essential to his thesis:

Anthony Julius is both a culture critic and a lawyer, and in his recent book "Transgressions: The Offences of Art," he examines the blurry boundary between art and law. Art, he says, has long been the beneficiary of a set of pieties that grant artists an "exalted status," allowing them to behave in museums, auditoriums and galleries in ways that would be unacceptable in other contexts. A Viennese artist, Günther Brus, performed a now-famous - or at least notorious - work in which he urinated and defecated on a stage, then masturbated while singing the Austrian national anthem. (Other aspects of this piece cannot be described in a family newspaper.**) When he was arrested for degrading state symbols, he argued that he was challenging taboos, and that his actions should be protected as a work of art.

Brus was right: the spectators present had freely chosen to be there. But what if he had physically attacked the audience as a way of breaking taboos? André Breton once said that the "simplest Surrealist act" would consist of "dashing down into the street, pistol in hand, and firing blindly . . . into the crowd." In fact, art may exist in what Julius calls "a privileged zone," but it is a zone within the confines of society. To believe that everything is permitted in the world of art is to suffer from a failure of the imagination about what human beings are capable of. For social beings, even artists, the idea that anything goes is a fiction.

It's understandable why the fiction arose, and why so many art critics bought into it. It would have been difficult to predict that dripping paint on a canvas would conclude with someone squirting paint from his anus or worse. Similarly, it has taken time to recognize that granting artists a privileged zone eventually undermined their seriousness. The Greenbergers thought they were protecting art by removing it from the materialistic workaday world, but by restricting it to what goes on in museums and galleries, or transforming it into a conversation solely among artists, they were actually converting it into an irrelevancy. Art made no claims on the "nonartistic," except as a source of amusement. And the artists, for their part, were given permission to behave like unsocialized children.

Harold Rosenberg had said that art was "a space open for the individual to realize himself in knowing himself." Today, after decades of narcissistic and exhibitionistic spectacles, when it's possible to grasp the limits of Rosenberg's libertarian ethos, we can see that he should have said art was not only a space for the individual to realize himself in knowing himself, but also a space to enable others to know themselves, as well as a space to evoke the bonds that exist between artist and spectator in their common self-awareness, which is to say in their common humanity. It's a definition that understands art is necessarily a social interaction, communication between people, dialogue, not merely the unfettered expression of the boundless ego as has been the case with so much work over the past few decades.


He then goes on to argue for the value of a specific piece of performance art by Marina Abramovic--one in fact which might seem, given this position, to be simply "shocking," but which instead, he argues, offer[s] her viewers a gift of spirituality without the doctrines, rituals or consolations of religion, and, thus, he says, fits his understanding of entering into a significant "dialogic" relation with the viewer.

*Now, NYTimes book reviews, even archived ones, are free, but you do have to register. If you want the entire thingy sans registering with the jack-booted corporate spies at the Times--sarcasm alert!--please feel free to pm me and I'll zip it to you in a PM.

**this is just to say that the term "family newspaper" puts the aloo saag I ate for dinner on an elevator to my esophagus.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:28 / 27.07.06
Cheers for the thoughts, Haus.

Hmm, this may be over-simple, but if we take the abstract question:

Is it true that, to be good, art should be somehow challenging? threatening? dangerous, even?

...I suppose that "challenge", "threat", and "danger", as words, could all be tagged as forms of "arousal" or "excitement". Isn't even the most conservative definition of art "that which excites"?

I guess the idea that art can be dangerous, and that it's being so would be a good thing, seems to be definitely true. I suppose, though, it doesn't have to be dangerous to be good, as "arousal" or "excitement" could include "love", "empathy" and so on.
 
 
gingerbop
20:43 / 30.07.06
I do like to see dangerous art. For example, I tend to be bored by a lot of dance, whereas if the dancers start being thrown around, I become more interested.

I see it as a cheap layer on top, which makes it more edible. I disagree with it being better art as a result.
 
 
astrojax69
21:53 / 30.07.06
i think any tendancy to say that art should be 'so and so' is getting toward hyperbole. art can be, and is in instances, dangerous [ie threatening to extant social mores], but some really wonderful art is not.

and legba has a good point about arousal, inthink. response to art is emotional, or is in a great part, and this innate response guides our reasoning and fuller apprehension. if we find something confronting, or arousing in any way, we naturally tend to investigate that - don't we? - and not always is it 'danger', but other emotions. watch some comedy and think about this.

i also think there needs to be a distinction between art works that might be 'dangerous', or better 'edgy', through challenging the boundaries of their circumscribed lot; effectively challenging the form of that artform itself. and then distinguished from art that expresses danger to an apprehension other than the form of the artwork. trends in art form extend and develop all practices, but not all this radical envelope pushing stuff need be 'dangerous' in the sense above?
 
  

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