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What wouldn't you eat...?

 
 
ADe
00:00 / 13.07.06
Simple question... Where would you stop...? What wouldn't you eat...?

Personally, i'll practically eat anything put in front of me... It would be rude not too if someone has made the effort to prepare it for you... yeah...?

Well no...

I myself really hate egg (ok in cakes it's fine) but other than that it's just still-born chicken babies isn't it...?

The reason I can't eat eggs is that it used to be a family thing every Sunday when we had a hard boiled egg each and one Sunday I got a bad one and was forced to eat it... My mum did eventually taste my egg and realized how bad it was but the damage was already done by then... I will never eat another egg...!!!!

Apart from eggs i'd eat anything... I have a cat and used to have hamsters, giniepigs and obviously dogs as pets as a kid... I still own a cat too who, as many cat owners do, love very, very much...

Well, if you hurt my cat then i'll break your legs but this won't stop me eating a meal of cat (provided it's not my one), dog, or any mouse like pet so long as it's presented in an edible way...

We kill and eat "Cows", "Pigs" and "Sheep" in the UK but why is it ok to eat them and not other animals...?

Anyway, what wouldn't/don't you eat and "why"...? Thats my question...
 
 
Lugue
00:40 / 13.07.06
If you want to explore the ethics behind eating habits in whatever way, then it's probably a good idea to present some actual thoughts as to the topic yourself and clear up the general issues you'd like the thread to be dealing with on that theoretical level. A latent issue in your post (which a) could and should have been more clearly phrased as one to explore and b) should really be its focus) seems to be how one justifies killing some animals for comsumption and not others.

A thread along such lines would be this one. You might want to give it a read and understand the perspective that is expected of you within the Head Shop section of the forum, and in comparison, how this thread doesn't match its criteria - in fact, you seem to utterly lack a bare understanding of them, and it's advisable that you look around a bit more and read the Wiki to gain a better understanding of how to engage with the site, as a newbie (though your confusion is understandable).

So, two options: either reformulate your entire opening post to approach some of the issues that, on reflection, might be behind the practices you approach in your post, or recognize that this is indeed a purely anedoctal thread at best, in which case you should contact a moderator to move it into the Conversation forum (which is where such threads belong). It's up to you (unless, of course, a moderator decides to start the process of immediately moving it).

[Headshop posters and moderators: I don't mean to meddle in any way, I just thought that I could save someone the trouble of approaching this. I hope I'm not in any way out of line or failing to provide the correct info.]
 
 
*
01:55 / 13.07.06
Actually, this would be a good time to bring in some of the classic anthropological research in this area, starting with Stanley J. Tambiah's famous article "Animals are good to think and good to prohibit." Unfortunately I haven't been able to find this online, only references; I think JSTOR may have it. This paper, "Meat is good to taboo," builds on Tambiah's work. And I haven't read this thesis, on disgust and morality, but I think it may also be relevant.

The central thrust of Tambiah's research was that food taboos, many of them, have to do with what categories we put animals into. Ethnoscience is one name for systems of categorization and understanding the world which vary among different groups of humans. For instance, mistletoe, in my book, is a parasitical herb, but according to ancient Celts it was said to be a tree, because tree meant something more like "symbologically important plant" and less like "woody-stemmed, bark-encased plant with a particular kind of root structure that normally grows taller than some arbitrary height." Tambiah found that understanding classifications of animals in a given culture is vital to understanding food taboos. For instance, wild animals which are predators may be grouped into one category which might be considered inedible, and wild animals which are not predators into another which might be considered edible. If a wild animal sometimes is a predator and sometimes is prey, it may be considered edible, but unclean or dangerous to eat in some way. Perhaps in a given system, domesticated animals are almost all considered food animals, and wild animals are usually not. Cats, with their borderline domestic-wild status, might be regarded as unclean to eat, or too sacred to eat. This scheme Tambiah famously applied to kosher laws, to interesting effect.
 
 
Quantum
11:56 / 13.07.06
"Animals are my friends. I don't eat my friends." Shaw

(I am adding a thread summary)
 
 
ADe
14:09 / 13.07.06
@Franca Folia!: I apologise if you felt my post was ill conceived or if it was in the wrong place... I am new and will read more before posting next time... If a moderator would like to move this then please feel free to do so...

@id's an entity thing: Thought your post was interesting... I shall go read up on it... Strange that almost any kind of sea creature, predator or not is considered edible...
 
 
*
14:22 / 13.07.06
By whom? In Kosher laws, I believe, sea creatures with scales and fins are edible, being obviously members of the category "fish." A sea creature without scales and fins, being possibly members of a category "slimy things that crawled with legs upon the slimy sea" or possibly not, would be unclean. A sea creature with legs is a classic illustration of this principle, because an ethnoscience might describe aquatic animals as using fins rather than legs, and something that lives in the water but has a characteristic of something that lives on land is weird and therefore not eaten.
 
 
Lugue
14:55 / 13.07.06
(Off-topic:

@Franca Folia!: I apologise if you felt my post was ill conceived or if it was in the wrong place... I am new and will read more before posting next time... If a moderator would like to move this then please feel free to do so...

And I apologise if I came over as a complete condescending prick... I just thought the absence of summary and general looseness of that initial post might be a sign that, as new to the board, it'd be best if you rethought how you were doing it and read up so your conduct in the future is Lith-appropriate (though I'm no expert! I mostly lurk, for foock's sake). But since a discussion seems to be growing out of it, it matters not a bit anymore. Happiness for all!)
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:24 / 13.07.06
I've been a vegetarian for about three years now - almost four, in fact. This was for several reasons, both economical and personal-moral, although I still eat seafood and generally classify myself as a "peschetarian" (however you'd spell that) on those grounds. Generally, I suspect that I could stomach most meats if I was to choose to go back the other way, except for pork. Bacon and pork cooking smells too much like I would imagine people being cooked would. It's the only meat smell that actually bothers me. I'm not sure where the psychological connection was made, but the smell of the grease...

I'm not sure I can justify eating the seafood, actually, on the grounds that it's mostly that I'd miss eating sushi too much. And with the exclusion of land-going meats I have a pretty broad range for eating.

Now, the question always strikes me ... can I not stand the smell of pork because I've conditioned myself since going vegetarian to make the connection? And why does it only extend to pork and not, say, beef or chicken?
 
 
ADe
16:46 / 13.07.06
Obviously a choice there with the vegetarianism but I think you're right that it's a "mind thing" with your particular dislike of pig meat (same as my egg problem)...

I've tried many times to overcome it as hate the idea that in this respect I’m a "fussy eater"... The thought of a big egg oozing yoke all over a full English breakfast makes my mouth water but I try to eat one every so often in the hope my taste buds will have changed but no luck... One bad egg seems to have been enough for me...

I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks insects are fare game...? I might be able to eat a hand full of fried ants or maybe a meal worm (I believe they eat them in the US) but I wouldn't be happy about it... Certainly any kind of beetle can get lost...!
 
 
grant
18:37 / 13.07.06
Tambiah found that understanding classifications of animals in a given culture is vital to understanding food taboos.

Did Tambiah mention China at all? Southern China is famously omnivorous (SARS from civet cats and all), and with growing wealth & cultural openness, there's been a growth in dogs-as-pets. People know which dogs are eating dogs and which dogs are pet dogs, but the difference isn't immediately obvious to someone used to thinking of all dogs as not-food.

----

I suspect a lot of the kosher laws had to do with what the "unclean" animals ate -- mainly because fish without scales tend to be bottom feeders, but also because part of the prohibitions have to do with animals that chew the cud (that is, regurgitate food to re-ingest it). I have no idea if this is a kosher reading; the Bible just lists categories for animals in a kind of spotter's guide way.

----

Oh, and eating bugs/mealworms is a no-no in the States (except among freaky folks). Among the Boers, flying ants, locusts and mopani worms are fair game, or were.
 
 
ADe
19:45 / 13.07.06
That's massively interesting... Which dogs are "good eatin'" and which aren’t...? Any examples...? I imagine the smaller ones are considered good eating because you might be able to finish a whole one lol...

Then again didn't the Chinese begin the development of the shitsu breed which was the pet of choice for emperors (according to a book I browsed of my sisters who obviously has one of these dogs)... Maybe it works the other way around and bigger dogs are considered a better meal or more palatable...? Or nothing to do with size at all...

Ok, see what you think about this…?

Out of the following dog breeds, which would you eat (if you had to choose one or all dogs would no longer exist)… Hypothetical question obviously…

  • Shitsu

  • Poodle

  • Pit Bull Terrier

  • Labrador

  • Saint Bernard

  • Wolf


For me it would have to be the Wolf because it’s a wild animal and takes it’s chances and could even be considered “good hunting”… Most of the others have put evolutionary effort into being "a mans best friend"... This kind-of contradicts id's an entity thing’s earlier post about predator animals being considered “inedible” though…? What do you think…?

Sorry to post so much here but I’m waiting for this dam script to finish (working late) and have nout else to do...
 
 
Quantum
15:26 / 14.07.06
ADe, I think you would have more fun in the Conversation forum. We don't normally discuss which breeds of dog you would eat here in the Head Shop (Philosophy, Cultural Studies and Identity Politics), more the philosophical implications of eating companion animals, or the theological or moral basis for dietary restrictions. If you see what I mean.

So I'm proposing a move to the Conversation, hope that's fine with you.
 
 
*
16:36 / 14.07.06
The point of my argument is that this categorization system, and what is considered a violation of it, varies from society to society. Tambiah's article compared Kosher laws to a Pacific island society I cannot now recall, which wasn't China, and where dog was not eaten. (It may have been Sri Lanka, as that is where Tambiah is from.) So in a society where "dog" is classified as "predator," and "predator" is classified as "inedible," most likely dog would not be eaten. Just as in a society where "dog" is classified as "pet/person" and "pet/person" is classified as "inedible," dog would most likely not be eaten. However, other societies may classify dog as livestock.
 
 
stabbystabby
01:54 / 15.07.06
I myself really hate egg (ok in cakes it's fine) but other than that it's just still-born chicken babies isn't it...?

noooo.... the eggs aren't fertilised (usually, except possibly if they're free range) so really, it's chicken menstruation rather than chicken babies.

which is so much more appetising....
 
 
maneki neko
08:01 / 15.07.06
I stopped eating meat about 12 years ago because I started to feel increasingly guilty and hypocritical.I've always liked animals since I was a child and I never made a distinction between pets or wild animals, I always felt quite attached to all of them. But at the same time I really liked to eat meat and it was only when growing up that I became aware of the contradiction in this.

I think what I'm trying to say is this - my rationale for not eating meat is based on slightly vague, personal beliefs - as I can't imagine myself killing a cow, a sheep or a cat for example, I will not eat it.
 
 
Triplets
11:29 / 15.07.06
I'll eat most meat. Meat is boss. Buuut I'd probably stop at stuff I've heard is sentient/sapient like dolphins, primates, whales. Not dogs, either, dogs are great.

Or insect/arachnids. I mean, gyhahhauhhuhuh. Why not just put a fucking alien in your mouth?

Anything else, though: yum.
 
 
Triplets
11:37 / 15.07.06
it's just still-born chicken babies isn't it...?

No, not really, not if it comes from a battery farm, anyway (usually). Let me ask, before you stopped did you ever crack an egg to find a gooey, doomed ovinaut inside?

Think of eggs as nature's spaceship.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
12:01 / 15.07.06
I have quite a "disgust-free" approach to food ethics, in that I find it very easy to distinguish between "food that I won't eat because I think it's disgusting, but that I have no problem with other people eating, if they want to", and "food that I won't eat because I think it (or, more accurately in most cases, the process of obtaining it) is morally wrong". (for instance, I can't even look at baked beans without wanting to puke, and the thought of eating them for me is about on a par with eating dogshit, but there's no way i'd consider eating them morally wrong...)

I'm very loosely vegetarian (will clarify below), but one thing that troubles me about a lot of vegetarians is that they seem to have an almost religious/superstitious/"magical" (in the sense implying irrationality) taboo about never eating certain categories of foods (without examining that beyond a non-negotiable taboo level), rather than examining for themselves the morals involved in each case (and developing an individual position on this)...

Personally i don't think eating one type of animal can really be considered fundamentally morally different from eating another type of animal (I don't see, for instance, how someone could consider it immoral to eat dog, but not to eat cow or pig), but i do think useful-but-not-absolute distinctions can be drawn... for me, for instance, it's not actually the killing of animals for food that i object to (since, well, all sorts of animals do that, and if we are not fundamentally different from other animals, i don't see how one could be a consistent vegan without also trying to "veganise" the cat and the wolf), but the idea of keeping animals in captivity, totally manipulating their whole lifestyle, and genetically/physically manipulating the animals themselves to make them less "wild" and more designed purely for eating (and the environmental impacts of this)... thus, i don't have a problem in theory with eating animals that have been hunted/trapped/fished (sustainably) from the wild, or free-range animals whose living conditions approximate those of wild animals, but due to a) my own total lack of knowledge or competence in doing so myself and b)the sheer expensiveness of game or free-range/organic meat from commercial sources I'm therefore a vegetarian by default...

The one area, of course, where i'm a *big* hypocrite is dairy products, given that, by my (tentative) ethical formulation as stated above, dairy farming is probably even more wrong than meat farming... I do buy organic milk, but don't usually buy organic cheese, simply because I eat so much cheese (it's my main source of protein) that paying twice the price for organic would simply be unaffordable for me (and there are so few types of cheese available in organic)... I do know people who are sucessfully vegan, but i don't think i could, just because i love cheese so much...

I also do feel that, even if food is what i consider to be ethically unacceptable (non-free-range meat, stuff that's farmed in very ecologically destructive ways, or products of companies such as Coca-Cola or Nestle which i try to boycott), but a) I didn't pay for it and b) the choice is between me eating it or it going into a landfill, then it's probably morally better for me to eat it... I might not actually do that with meat tho, because after about 3 years of not eating any meat (except on very rare occasions, such as when visiting my parents at Christmas and it would be simply too much fuss to insist on a vegetarian option), eating it actually does very weird things to my head and stomach (weird feelings of "heaviness", nausea and hyperactivity)...
 
 
stabbystabby
09:05 / 18.07.06
Let me ask, before you stopped did you ever crack an egg to find a gooey, doomed ovinaut inside?

yeah, i did. grew up on a farm though. Certainly cracked a few eggs to find a tiny beating heart inside.

personally, i don't eat cat or dog - don't like eating carnivores. tried horse, not very nice. had kangaroo sausages recently, a bit gamey but not bad.
 
 
nixwilliams
00:07 / 19.07.06
i've been vegetarian for almost 10 years (yikes!), and my rationale was, "if i don't kill it, i won't eat it". obviously this logic would result in me having to grow all my own food and 'kill' the plants myself, so i soon changed to, "if i can't kill it, i won't eat it". which is ok, but i can easily kill shellfish (for example) but i didn't want to eat them if i didn't do it myself. perhaps now i will just say, "i won't eat anything that comes from a dead animal", and if they just chop the leg off the sheep, i'm up for a roast...

the places where my vegetarianism zigzags are: fertilised eggs, and when we kept chooks and roosters i ate them; gelatine, which i do not eat; and cheese made with animal rennet, which i do eat. because cheese is a food group in itself and i will not deny my taste buds its creamy goodness.

also, i have some fine print on my contract of vegetarianism: "i'll try anything once". so, since i've been vegetarian i've eaten snake and snails, black pudding and jellied eel and haggis. i've yet to be offered chocolate coated ants, frogs legs, crumbed brains and deep fried spiders. i'm interested in squid ink pasta, too (do they kill the squid to get the ink?).

strangely, since becoming vegetarian i am less squicked by the thought of eating a particular bit of animal (except eyeballs). i wonder if this is just because i've matured, or because i think it's ethical to eat as much of the dead beastie as possible?

and human flesh... well, at least humans are able to give consent to be eaten...
 
 
The Falcon
01:08 / 19.07.06
Like that German manny off the news the other year. Man, I couldn't stop talking about that story - Armin something? - and he arranged to meet a guy and share his penis fried with garlic and onion as I recall. I don't much fancy human, anyhow, but I certainly wouldn't want to chow on my own organ.

I'll eat most meat. Meat is boss. Buuut I'd probably stop at stuff I've heard is sentient/sapient like dolphins, primates, whales. Not dogs, either, dogs are great.

Or insect/arachnids. I mean, gyhahhauhhuhuh. Why not just put a fucking alien in your mouth?

Anything else, though: yum.


That's pretty much my diet - if I had any strong ethical backbone whatsoever, I'd not eat meat because I think vegetarians are, basically, right. There's no moral highground really for a carnivore, is there? Fortunately, I don't have such problems, because I love meat. I do hate chicken though, as it's - unless flame-grilled - the most boring meat of all time. Still eat it sometimes, but it tastes of nothing.

Reckon I could chow an insect, too, as I love prawns and they're pretty insecty. My mum says locusts are pretty decent.
 
 
The Falcon
01:10 / 19.07.06
Pets are basically right out; horses, cats (I don't even like cats much, but still,) hamsters...

I probably could eat rabbit though. And maybe that Ecuadorian Guinea Pig specialty, if it has some nice spices.
 
 
nixwilliams
01:33 / 19.07.06
I love prawns and they're pretty insecty

i think every vegetarian has one meaty temptation, and prawns are mine. WERE mine! if you sat me downbefore a platter of fresh prawns, my willpower would be truly tested!

yeah, the german cannibal. it's really interesting, that case - as is consensual cannibalism in general. it's odd that as a culture, we have no qualms about killing non-consenting animals for food, but consenting humans - no way! although we can bomb the shit out of hapless citizens of the world for whatever reason, we can't eat MANFLESH (i feel the uruk-hai in me coming to the fore!)
 
 
sorenson
21:24 / 19.07.06
I just can't give up meat. I was raised vegetarian and I have never got over the sense of deprivation. But at the same time, I think I should be able to respectfully kill the things I eat (and Nix, I do grow a lot of my own vegies). But I couldn't - I know there is no way that I could even kill a chicken or a rabbit that I raised. I've been fishing a few times and am always relieved that I never catch anything (but I think I could kill a fish, even though it would be hard). So I try to deal with this inconsistency by insisting on eating what I call 'happy meat' - that is, I don't eat meat that I don't have at least some idea what kind of conditions it was raised in (free range, preferably organic, humanely killed). Because this kind of meat is really expensive, this means I eat less meat, which is less resource-intensive for the planet etc. So it's a good outcome I think, though I still carry around a lingering sense of guilt. As for types of meat, I am a slave to taste and my version of ethics rather than to cultural taboos - I will try anything once (but I don't think I could eat even consenting human - my girlfriend says she would though).
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
23:44 / 19.07.06
As mentioned above, vegetarians do most definitely occupy the moral high ground and I wish I had the will power to defy the satanic urge to scoff meat, but I don't.

At least I don't anthropomorphise animals; I'll eat pretty much anything without discrimination.

I think my worst example was once when I was visiting a friend in Annecy, France; he took me to a French restaurant for a complicated meal with many unfathomable courses, where I ate foie gras (which I am still actually wracked with terrible guilt about).

Then, as the pièce de résistance, I was served a small tumbler full of warm, spiced hare's blood, which in my inebriated state I downed in one and actually quite enjoyed.

I know - it's not big and it's not clever, but at least I know I'm never going to sink any lower in my career as a carnivore.

And my apologies to those of a more sensitive, less French nature.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:24 / 20.07.06
a small tumbler full of warm, spiced hare's blood

You made that up. Go on, you must've made that up!
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
00:39 / 20.07.06
I only wish I had, Mordant.

My only defense is that by the time I reached that 'course' I was well and truly wined up to the eyeballs.
 
 
Spaniel
06:48 / 20.07.06
Fuckin' 'ell, metal, that's mental.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:25 / 20.07.06
I had snails the other night. They were very nice. Sort of chewy.
 
 
Spaniel
09:46 / 20.07.06
People make such a fuss about eating snails. I reckon they're well nice.
 
 
specofdust
11:51 / 20.07.06
As mentioned above, vegetarians do most definitely occupy the moral high ground

Do they? I'm not so sure. Vegans, yes, if you want to call that the high ground then they most certainly do occupy it. But vegetarians by not being vegans use animal products, and therefore are surely at least partially to blame for the slaughter of cows for their leather and hooves and sheep for their wool etc. The animals are still kept in a life of captivity and either are left to die at the end of their life or are eaten at some point in that life by the omnivores. So aren't vegetarians just as low groundish as omnivores, but just avoiding consuming one of the many(and I'll admit main) products we keep animals for, while enjoying the rest?
 
 
nixwilliams
22:41 / 30.07.06
i'm just wondering - is there anyone here who is vegetarian, eats eggs and dairy and honey etc, but doesn't use leather, fur and bone? because that would probably be the extension of my vegetarianism - i'd use wool because it doesn't kill the sheep, but not leather because it comes from a dead thing.

bone is interesting, though, because i've met a few craftspeople who make buttons and jewellery out of bone, but only from bone they find - animals aren't killed for their bones. (or so they say!)

i don't think of vegetarianism as a moral high ground, as such, though i personally sleep easier for being vegetarian. too lazy to be vegan, though. and, as i said, the CHEESE!
 
 
Mister Saturn
02:22 / 31.07.06
I actually have a bracelet from my fave cousin's treks in the Nepal - apparently the beads are carved from various bones found on the base of Mt. Himalaya. I like to think that perhaps one or two of the beads are actually human bone.

Anything goes once, for me, as I've tried various organs and feet, steamed jellyfish (tasted TERRIBLE, like bland chewy lard), right down to a scorpion, which tasted like very crunchy peppery chips with a gooey centre.

However, I would rather eat human flesh than eat crocodiles, lizards, snakes, and other reptiles. Reptiles has always been in my heart and mind since I was born, and the thought of eating their flesh makes me retch - after all, they are my totem, given to me by my sister when I was born.

Reminds me of a strange dream recently: I had a plate of lightly sautéed chunks of what looked like pork, but I knew they were human flesh. I tasted some, and I remarked to a strange woman sitting before me, that humans tasted just like crocodile.
 
 
Slate
05:49 / 31.07.06
I am a devout carnivore so to steer the topic a little over this way...

In Queensland, Australia, there is a debate raging over the merits of drinking recycled sewage water. The politicians say that in Europe people have been drinking recycled sewage for years? Is this true? Would you drink recycled sewage water? I think I would, I know how drought can knock a community around, and if this could extend overall water supply then why not? Oh, I would have to be shown the details of the filtration process first...
 
 
nixwilliams
01:45 / 04.08.06
it's strange that we australians are so against drinking (or even using) 'recycled' water, though water is constantly in short supply. and all water is recycled anyway.

i found the whole 'feminisation' argument odd, though. i imagine all the flannel wearing bogan queensland rednecks (i admit, i only know two people from queensland who fulfil this stereotype) starting to 'feminise'... whatever that means...

oh, yeah. i ate steamed chicken feet once, and they were pretty yick. bland and flabby and crunchy and they were chicken feet!!!
 
  
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