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Are *you* mentally divergent, friend?

 
 
Lurid Archive
13:23 / 12.07.06
I've been meaning to post about this for a while, but Natty Ra Jah's link to Jane Meyerding's site has prompted me to actually do it, since it is so interesting to delve into. I guess I've been interested in autism for a long time, and there is an element of wondering how closely I fit the profile - not *that* closely, since I function pretty well, but that isn't the end of the story.

As I've said elsewhere, I've actually met quite a lot of people suffering from some kind of autism - when I say quite a lot, I mean about a dozen or so, which seems atypical to me, but correct me if I am underestimating the numbers here - and this is largely due to meeting lots of people in math flavoured environments. Now autism is partly about not reading non-verbal social cues well, nor displaying them appropriately, and I'm really curious as to how different people experience and have experienced the development of their social skills. For instance, I was talking about this to someone else who is also fascinated by autism (another mathematician), who described the process of having watched people very carefully, observing their body language so as to learn it quite deliberately, which definitely struck a chord with me.

So I'm interested in how much people can relate to some of the stuff on Jane Meyerding's site, and how much of it seems alien. For myself, I find that much of it resonates, but only ever so slightly. For instance, I still haven't quite got the hang of group conversations and I am well known for becoming unusually fatigued by company after some time - I *need* to be alone rather a lot, and so on. So tell me about yous.
 
 
netbanshee
13:59 / 12.07.06
At work on a busy day, Lurid, so I can't comment too much at the moment. Autism spectrum disorders seem to be the topic of this day though.

I came across this article in the Telegraph about an autistic savant by the name of Daniel Tammet that wrote a book recently and is known for reciting pi to the 22,514th digit. Some interesting reading there.

My brother has Asperger's and I trend just a tad in that direction myself. I'd like to talk about this, so I'll see if I can pick up on this later...
 
 
Ticker
14:34 / 12.07.06
Off of JM's site I went to the link Getting The Truth Out.

Holy crap was that an amazing site to progress through. You really have to go through the entire thing not just a few pages deep. Impressive in revealing my own prejudices.
I then went back and read a bunch of JM's articles which I'm still mulling over.
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
14:45 / 12.07.06
I'll read the site and potentially comment in more detail later, but: as I seem to be saying a whole bunch lately, I had to 'learn' social behaviours by observing and emulating the behaviours of people around me, which turned me from very introverted to reasonably extroverted in execution. I have never, however, considered myself to be, even remotely, autistic, or to have qualities of the spectrum of autistic conditions. I'll have to look into it more.

I'd hesitate to associate myself with the autistic disorder spectrum (despite having some personality aspects while younger which might seem to mach in retrospect), simply because I'm nowhere near it anymore (if I ever was), and to do so would suggest, on some level, that these autistic folk could simply 'get over it' if they could be bothered turning their weirdly-focused attention towards the interpersonal system, which I don't think is accurate or fair (also I'm not using 'weirdly-focused attention' as my own shorthand for autism here, it's something that I've noticed from a few of the people in and around Sydney University who look into these areas, and it's always struck me as a bit ... incomplete, and possibly straight up wrong). But, again, I don't know, and I'll look into it later and find out.
 
 
grant
15:18 / 12.07.06
From this page of Meyerling's: What's more, I must assume that most or all of the people around me are NT (neurologically typical), and I therefore feel compelled to hide or disguise ways in which I am different from those norms.

I've had a few of the symptoms/behaviors Meyerling discusses, but I've also met, like, real autistic people (not "high-functioning" at all), and I know the differences between me and "neurologically typical" people are miniscule compared to the difference between me and autistic.

To the point where I don't believe there really is a "neurologically typical," actually -- I think everyone "hides or disguises ways in which they are different from those norms." Some are better at the disguising than others. "Typical" = "well-disguised."
 
 
Chiropteran
15:28 / 12.07.06
Since my son was identified as autistic (with the flurry of research that inspired), I have come to realize that many of the previously "anomalous" things about my own life, headspace, behavior, and day-to-day "issues" are rather strongly suggestive of Asperger's Syndrome*. It is unlikely that I would receive a diagnosis in the US, according to the DSM-IV criteria (which emphasize "clinically significant impairments," more on that below), but the broader profile suggested by people like Tony Atwood do place me on the spectrum - specifically, what Atwood has called "residual Asperger's" - which doesn't mean that the Asperger's has "gone away," but that it has been accomodated to the point that any impairments are no longer "clinically significant" (e.g. learning, through careful observation, the basics of body language or to recognize figurative speech).

Reframing my "problems" in terms of Asperger's/Autism has really (really) helped me to understand and manage them. First and foremost it has helped me to make sense of them: one common feature of Asperger's/Autism is an unusually uneven distribution of abilities, so that typically-reasonable assumptions of "I can do A, therefore I can (or should-be-able-to-goddamit-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-me) do B" don't always apply. In a conventional educational setting (and, occasionally, in intimate relationships), this can lead to trouble when it's not understood. I have also come to appreciate that my capabilities on one day are not always a good predictor of my capabilities on any other day, or under different conditions. This is true of everybody, to a certain extent, but for people with Asperger's/Autism, the changes can sometimes be profound (sometimes I can't actually communicate verbally at all, and find myself relying on prelearned stock phrases or echoing exactly what others say around me).

I can ramble on about Asperger's for hours, but I'm going to stop for now so I can get some work done before lunch.

*this is apparently a fairly common phenomeon, as many people with Asperger's make it to adulthood undiagnosed until they come into contact with autism specialists, etc., on behalf of their child (there seems to be a strong hereditary component to spectrum conditions). Stephen Shore calls this APHID - Autistic Parent Heavily In Denial.
 
 
Chiropteran
15:52 / 12.07.06
There's a good autism blog - "Processing In Parts" - here. The focus is on living as an (employed) adult with Autism, with special emphasis on accomodation and "disability rights."
 
 
Chiropteran
16:30 / 12.07.06
Three in a row! Sorry, but...

but I've also met, like, real autistic people (not "high-functioning" at all)

I'm sure you didn't mean that to be offensive, but the common perception that "real autism = low-functioning autism (often accompanied by 'you can't really be autistic, you're not rocking in the corner pulling your hair out' = 'what special needs??')" thing is a real hot-button in the autistic community.

A "high-functioning autistic" is no "less" autistic than a "low-functioning autistic" (I'm using the scarequotes because those designations, while still in common use, are considered by many to be inadequate and misleading) - they have a different constellation of symptoms and abilities (with the difference often hinging on the ability to speak or the presence of co-morbidities), but even these often blur the line between "high" and "low" functioning (that "unusual combination of abilities," again). The excellent Getting The Truth Out site linked above gets into this, both in its content and by example (i.e. the intelligent, articulate, and politically active woman who created the site cannot speak, often needs to wear a helmet to prevent self-injury when she's overstimulated, and wears diapers). Anyway, not jumping on you - like I said, I'm sure you didn't mean it "like that," but since it came up I wanted to point it out.
 
 
grant
19:07 / 12.07.06
Actually, that's good to know.
 
 
Chiropteran
19:42 / 12.07.06
Doing a little review reading prompted by this thread, I (re)learned that, apparently, the "official" distinction between "HFA" and "LFA" is an IQ above or below 70, respectively. That distinction is, or should be, very obviously flawed, and common usage tends to be broader/fuzzier.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
20:13 / 12.07.06
I should post here, since it was my link that inspired this thread, and almost certainly will post here properly, but am very tired (and hence not very good at being coherent) and don't have a massive amount of time right now, so it might be a few days before i contribute properly...

However, to add a few more links, Wrong Planet is a fairly large and popular community site focused on AS issues, and with regard to bits of writing i've found, in addition to Jane Meyerding's site, there's also autistics.org, which has links to quite a few bits of writing (some very well written stuff on Amanda Baggs's "non site") and the blog BallastExistenz (which may be by Amanda Baggs, who may also be behind "Getting The Truth Out" (which I also urge people to go all the way through, not just the first few pages), but i'm not certain)... possibly oddly, most of the good first-person bits of writing about AS on the web seem to be by autistic women, despite autism spectrum disorders affecting roughly 4 times as many males as females - it's theoretically possible that perhaps women affected are more likely to have the combination of abilities heavily weighted towards articulacy in writing...

anyway, i'll definitely be back with more later...
 
 
Twice
22:32 / 12.07.06
I’m not sure that divergent is entirely appropriate as a description for AS folk. NT (or perhaps Neuro-Normative people) sometimes forget that diversity (or here, ‘divergent’) is in fact normal. Being AS is not ‘out of the ordinary’: it is perfectly ordinary.
Concentrating on ‘extremes’ (it is hard to find an extreme end to this particular ‘spectrum’) is not terribly helpful, when Neuro-Normative is considered to be one end of it.

Being ‘just a bit autistic’ is not something which one should try to seek out in oneself. The application of ‘IQ’ as a measure of capability in this sense is far too simplistic. It creates an image of a vertical scale where ‘more autism = more stoopid’ is not only incorrect but is socially discriminative.
 
 
Ticker
22:46 / 12.07.06
I've spent the day thinking about the 'Getting the Truth Out' site and realizing that it really did knock some heavy ill informed perceptions outta me.

My brain's been doing over time thinking about gender assumptions people make all the time (thread over in the Head Shop) and reading these articles on autism just plopped the dunce cap on me.

I haven't ever interacted with a self identified autistic person. Rather I've only gotten media fed Hollywood versions of their experiences. Now I'm realizing how much that's like believing all women wear aprons and spend their days baking.

I tell you the articles on JM's site made me want to go volunteer and not in a cheesy pity-party way. More like "hellya, this shit* is tough. How may I be of assistence?"



*the demands of our society
 
 
astrojax69
22:50 / 12.07.06
another interesting site is temple grandin's site - she is a very high functioning autist, is a neuroscientist and has made profound contributions to the field of animal welfare and their slaughter, oddly enough!

her books are excellent.

will have a read of the sites mentioned up-thread and get back to this topic, but it is one close to my area of employ... the strategy that the autistic mind (and aspergers) employs is critical to how we have come to understand NT (neurotypical) minds.

and yes, there is a lot of misinformation on autism and aspergers. lepidoptrean is quite right that the autistic community is very sensitive to its perception in the wider community. there appears to be a spectrum of these disorders and autism is unfortunately very often accompanied by other psychpathologies or brain lesions/impairments. our centre uses the abstract concept of 'classic autism' to study the brain and mind, we don't often interact with actual autists - occasionally some rare savants, including daniel temmet and stephen wiltshire - extraordinary individuals! (and boss had a wondrous three hour one on one chat with temple just a week or so ago; so sad he forgot to take the voice recorder...)

i am actually developing a theory about behaviours relative to this spectrum, but more on that as it develops.

in some experiments my work research centre has done i have shown a few savant-like abilities but overall i am, i think (and in classic autistic spectrum tests), toward the other end of that spectrum. mind is malleable. or can be. and the behaviours attributed to autism spectrum disorders, well some of them, seem to be similar to beahviours in people patently towards the other end of any spectrum...

if you want a little more info, check out this lab thread.
 
 
Ticker
22:52 / 12.07.06
I haven't ever interacted with a self identified autistic person.

I should add:

who elected to inform me of this fact.
 
 
Red Concrete
22:59 / 12.07.06
Re: the low/high-functioning autism distinction. I was under the impression that there was quite a clear distinction between what you might call Kanner's autism, and the broader/milder range of autistic-like "syndromes".

By clear distinction I don't mean a well defined set a clinical or other measures that can separate "autism" from "everything else". I mean that the psychiatrists I have worked with (who are well trained in using measures like ADI and ADOS, and extremely experienced in that they have seen and interviewed many patients and their families) can see, subjectively mind you, that autism proper is qualitatively a different thing.

I'm probably opening a can of worms here. Are there any child psychiatrists/psychologists on?
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:01 / 12.07.06
The title is meant to be tongue-in-cheek and is a (probably slightly misremembered) quote from Twelve Monkeys, and not meant to establish preferred terminology. If someone feels it is suspect, I'm willing to change it.

Being ‘just a bit autistic’ is not something which one should try to seek out in oneself. - Twice

I'm interested, amongst other things, in the existence or otherwise of an autism spectrum amongst people who would never actually be classed as autistic. It isn't meant to be disrespectful, if that is your concern. I'm also fascinated when reading about autistics, especially in their own words. Lets have more links, quotes and anecdotes.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
23:07 / 12.07.06
I've spent the last hour reading Getting The Truth Out and I'm just sitting here with my jaw hanging open. I had ... no... idea. I heartily encourage everyone to read that site, and don't stop until it's done.
 
 
netbanshee
00:24 / 13.07.06
Yeah... that link is absolutely spectacular and so glad it was posted. Certainly helped nudge me along towards a better perspective.

Lurid: I picked up the quote and understood it as such. In fact it got me in the door since I was curious about the content.

Having a sibling that has Asperger's and being in close quarters to him for a good part of my life has been a rewarding experience. He's a good guy and has been having a better go at things as he pushes on towards adulthood. I've learned a lot about myself and others by growing up and interacting with him.

It tears at me how often those physical cues, responses and behavioral patterns can be jumped upon by so many people (schooling years can be dreadful at times) since they're not seen as neuro-normative. It certainly doesn't make it easier for those in the autistic spectrum to express the things they'd like to.

I'm also a bit interested in behaviors that are similar to those of in the autistic spectrum that you might find typically placed outside of it. I do notice some tendencies that are similar between my brother and I (also my Dad) and since we come from the same gene pool and I wonder how it plays out in day to day tasks and social interactions. Qualities like being technical and detail oriented, absorptive of large amounts of information, not as social an individual as those in the social circle, having deep focus at times and attracted to and using patterns, etc.
 
 
*
01:24 / 13.07.06
I've spent the last hour reading Getting The Truth Out and I'm just sitting here with my jaw hanging open. I had ... no... idea. I heartily encourage everyone to read that site, and don't stop until it's done.

Seconded. Fourthed. Twentyfifthed. Whatever. Don't stop while there's still a "Next" to click, or I'll beat you senseless with a funoodle in an unfun way.
 
 
stabbystabby
02:11 / 13.07.06
um, yeah. wow.

If you're reading the site and feel a bit uncomfortable, keep going. you must.
 
 
grant
02:12 / 13.07.06
Might be useful to post the DSM criteria for autism here. It's classed as a "developmental disorder".

My direct exposure to autism was with someone who had the "total lack of the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime)." He knew a couple words in sign language, but barely, and only after a lot of effort from his parents.

I could kind of tell there was thinking going on in there, but we couldn't do much besides share space (I stayed in his room during a family trip). We seemed to get along -- he seemed to enjoy my company. The hand-flapping thing from the "Truth Out" site rings a bell.

I'm afraid this isn't much of an anecdote.

Well, I do remember walking down the street with him, his mother and younger sisters, and an older woman with an ample bosom stopped to admire the cute little kids. He must've been 12 or 13, I guess. Anyway, she said hello, smiled, and then he poked her right in the breast. He was really into touching things in his environment -- always poking walls or touching faces. She just reared up, said, "That's very rude!" and walked off in a huff. It's hard not to laugh, remembering it, but I don't think he found it very funny. Just sort of mystified. And the lady, I doubt she ever realized there was anything different about that "rude" boy.
 
 
*
02:38 / 13.07.06
I get to thinking that it could have been a lot worse, though. And it's difficult to know how to communicate with someone who communicates differently when they're crossing a real boundary that many NT people rely on to feel safe*. I mean, somebody who has been sexually assaulted may operate under a reasonable expectation that strangers won't touch them in intimate ways without permission, and someone who is autistic may see and intend nothing inappropriate by poking someone in the tit. But if these two hypothetical people have the interaction you've just described, grant, both people will probably walk away upset and maybe with some degree of emotional harm. So not to suggest that autistic people need to be controlled lest they do something inappropriate, but how to navigate both people's needs so everyone is okay? It strikes me that people's expectations that strangers will not touch them in ways they feel to be violating is perfectly reasonable and should be supported, and autistic people should also be able to have the reasonable expectation that when they're trying to communicate people will not freak out and hit them for no reason that is apparent to them.

Examples of my own not-so-useful reactions to similar situations, found here.

* as opposed to "Don't flap your hands, that's weird."
 
 
Quantum
02:57 / 13.07.06
xk is absolutely right, Getting The Truth Out- everybody should read it. What is that amazing woman's name?

I consider myself to be pretty hard hearted but that was absolutely amazing, inspirational and enraging at the same time. It literally brought a tear to my eye. I hope other people sign the guestbook, the creator of the site should be published immediately in my opinion.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:44 / 13.07.06
And it's difficult to know how to communicate with someone who communicates differently when they're crossing a real boundary that many NT people rely on to feel safe*.

For the people I've interacted with, the problems are more subtle than that. You can explain to an autistic person, the concept of personal space and in my experience, this actually works. Its an easy, if arbitrary, rule that is fairly simple to observe. What is much harder is explaining the totality of sucessful social interaction. As in one of the scenarios in Getting the Truth Out, it is a real barrier if a person's body language is too...odd.

OK, that sounds like we should all just be a bit more tolerant, but that isn't the end of it. Everyone's life relies on a certain amount of networking, and the formation of social bonds, even if they are shallow things in the workplace that means someone will be inclined to cover for you if you need it. I've seen the problems that autistic people face, and they are made rather more difficult by the fact that the person manages to get very little help for themselves from others. Even an autistic person who is disposed to being sociable has a difficult time, since they can often be hard to interact with - other people find can them irritating and generally hard work. This isn't necessarily intolerance - just as Jane Meyerding describes being around others as tiring, it can also happen that being around someone who is autistic can be tiring - and sets up barriers that are hard to break down.
 
 
Quantum
13:29 / 14.07.06
In the news today, "Autism could affect twice as many children as previously believed"
 
 
Twice
15:33 / 14.07.06
I consider myself to be pretty hard hearted but that was absolutely amazing, inspirational and enraging at the same time. - Lurid

Enraging, yes, particularly when you consider that many social workers in the UK still describe autistic peoples’ functionality in terms of IQ, for example ‘Full Scale IQ 58, Verbal Scale 46 but (my italics) Performance Scale 71’. Getting the Truth Out certainly makes a mockery of this tendency. Thankfully, there is a growing trend toward efforts to allow autistic people to define their own needs.

The consensus diagnosis of autism and in particular other autistic spectrum disorder cases could be associated with the broadening of diagnostic criteria over time, which might be responsible for the rise in reported prevalence, but other explanations cannot be ruled out. - From the Independent, link above.

While many may consider this as evidence of increased prevalence of ‘abnormality’, it may also be viewed as evidence that the line between autistic/not autistic is so blurred that it may as well not exist. I feel that ‘high’ and ‘low’ functioning distinctions should be viewed similarly. Of course, ‘other explanations’ might also include the likelihood that if you send a bunch of people out to look for something, they’re sure as hell going to find it.
 
 
grant
19:47 / 22.08.06
Anybody catch this interesting "This I Believe" essay by autistic inventor Temple Grandin?

When I was in my 20s, I thought a lot about the meaning of life. At the time, I was getting started in my career, designing more humane facilities for animals at ranches and slaughterhouses. Many people would think that to even work at a slaughterhouse would be inhumane, but they forget that every human and animal eventually dies. In my mind, I had a picture of a way to make that dying as peaceful as possible.

I believe that doing practical things can make the world a better place. And one of the features of being autistic is that I’m good at synthesizing lots of information and creating systems out of it.


Links at the bottom to more stories about Grandin. Very interesting stuff.

Mod hat: any objection if I whisked this thread off to the Lab?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
20:41 / 22.08.06
Wow, synchronicity. I was just thinking about how i should have, but didn't, get back to this thread, and here it is on the front page again...

Unfortunately, i'm insanely knackered right now, due to the fact that i'm working this week (i can work an 8-hour day or keep up with intellectual conversation on a Barbelith kind of level, not both), and thus am about to go to bed, so i can't really get back to it now, but i will, maybe next week or so...

I do have things to say on this subject related to Ganesh's thread in the Policy as well, which i might be able to muster up the coherence to respond to a bit sooner...

Cal Montgomery's writings at Ragged Edge (one of the best resources on the web for anything to do with disability theory/politics in general) are also highly challenging (even for me, despite my complete and passionate agreement with them), but/and very much worth reading on this subject...
 
 
astrojax69
22:37 / 22.08.06
i linked a lab thread from an earlier post, grant, and maybe it'd be good to have this kind of discussion as a general one to keep everyone involved? just a thought...

and on an earlier post, someone suggested Being ‘just a bit autistic’ is not something which one should try to seek out in oneself. - Twice

well, we are all of us more than a 'little bit autistic', it seems. the neural strategies, especially well elucidated by temple grandin, also linked several times upthread, are common to us all, while the autistic spectrum has varying degrees of the neurotypical domination of the over-riding concept part of our brains, down to almost none at all. and research into creativity, understanding what it is and how it might be effected, includes turning off the dominat part of the brain and allowing momentary autistic-like literalness.

and if you try yourself to sit quietly in an open space and try to hear every sound coming at you equally, not one thread of noise dominating what your brain is processing, it is rather like an autistic spectrum state and one empathises with autists screaming in a corner with the hands on their ears - to be like that all the time must be a difficult existence. but in other ways, it expands ones understanding of being in the world. so i disagree - twice...

so i suggest maybe this thread stay in convo as a means to understanding?
 
  
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