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"FWD:" my "red-state," religious family blues

  
 
alas
13:56 / 11.07.06
As some of you know, I have a big, conservative, religious, mostly midwestern US family. Many of them know I'm politically liberal and religiously ... suspect, but, mainly I'm polite and quiet about my politics and my religion because, first, it's like we're on different planets, and, second, I really hate being proselytized to, myself, and, finally, the big question: where would I begin?

But I'm on their mailing lists. And, to their credit, usually my relatives just send me recipes, family pictures, and christmas letter type updates of family happenings, invitations to potlucks, and maybe the odd "inspirational story" involving dear departed dead deaf mothers hearing their piano playing waifs from heaven, tears (de riguer), veterans, American flags, the Power of Prayer, and about 337 exclamation points.

But the following is a representative sample of something that shows up in my mailbox about once a month:

"Subject: Thought Provoking


How Long Do We Have?!!

About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy;

7. From apathy to dependence;

8. From dependence back into bondage .."

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:

Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million; Bush: 143 million;

Square miles of land won by:
Gore: 580,000;
Bush: 2,427,000

States won by:
Gore: 19
Bush: 29

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Gore: 13.2
Bush: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom."

So, I repeat: Where do I begin? I would actually like to take some kind of stand--but to do so in some way that has a snowball's chance of actually being heard by my relatives. If I just insult them and sneer, it might feel good for a few seconds, but it will probably only succeed in reinforcing their ideas about the ugliness of the outside world. The big problem is, they don't THINK before they hit send, they just hit send (and my Mom is one of the worst offenders).

Should I bother? Is there even the remote possibility of a "quick" reply that might be effective in this context?

I'm depending on you, barbelith, and the powers of your collective wisdom.
 
 
Thorn Davis
14:07 / 11.07.06
Well, I guess they're entitled to agree with the information in that forwarded email - I mean, if those statistics are accurate you can infer what you want from them. You could argue til you're blue in the face that the high murder rate in states that voted Gore are people voting Democrat because the Republican rule has failed them, but it's just another interpretation, like using it to suggest that Decmocrats are a bunch of murderers.

You could always forward it to a bunch of Democrats saying "Look at the kind of guff the Republicans are passing round as propaganda; look at how close we are to letting apathy grant them another term in power."
 
 
illmatic
14:11 / 11.07.06
Alas: is part of the problem appealing across the religion barrier? I'm guessing that you're atheistic, if not an outright non-believer? I am also assuming (perhaps a big assimption, perhaps not) that they won't listen a damn to anyone who's not a professed Christian? Perhaps appeals using the argument or authority of the more liberal wing of Christianity might help?
 
 
Jack Fear
14:14 / 11.07.06
Someone is trying to lure you into a fight. Don't take the bait. It'll only end badly.

Ignore the e-mail. Delete it. Delete all future unsolicited forwarded e-mails, unread.

If anybody in your family asks you if you read that forwarded e-mail, inform them that it is your policy to delete such things unread. Stand your ground.

Worked for me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:21 / 11.07.06
The statistics aren't accurate. Possibly it would be worth responding with something along the lines that this did make you think, about how much we take on faith and how much we just pass along to other people, with the impression that we believe it and that it should be trusted, when a similar email with different statistics and a blue-state bias would be deleted at once.

Maybe direct them here, or just pull a couple of handy facts out. Point out maybe that that Rome was the preeminent Western civilisation for getting on for 500 years (you may not want to tell them that things only started going really wrong when the Romans embraced Christ - might rile them up). That the Athenian democracy was ended not by the voting of generous gifts but by the crushing of the state of Athens by the armies of Philip of Macedon in 322. Muse on how funny it is what you find out when you start looking at things you're expected to take for granted.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:23 / 11.07.06
I occasionally get round robin emails of this sort from my Parentals (who're rather more conservative/Little Britain in their thinking than I am).

I have to admit I normally just delete them. But occasionally I throw together a counter-argument with a request that it get sent back up the chain.

It most likely achieves nothing, but it makes me feel a little better. I always argue that my family can't really complain about recieving it considering they saw fit to chuck the original email at me.
 
 
Quantum
14:27 / 11.07.06
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government."

Jeez, where to start. I'd challenge some of the assumptions rather than the conclusion, try referring them to wikipedia The 1707 Act of Union brought England and Scotland together under the Parliament of Great Britain so there's 300 years right there. Then maybe try tackling some of the other obviously ridiculous assertions, let the doubt creep in, hopefully your family will start to see your point of view and hopefully become a bit more resistant to crap propaganda.

I love the way that email shows that landowners voted for Bush so poor people are murderers leeching off the state.
 
 
electric monk
14:33 / 11.07.06
You could always forward it to a bunch of Democrats saying "Look at the kind of guff the Republicans are passing round as propaganda; look at how close we are to letting apathy grant them another term in power."

Doubt that's really going to solve anything, Thorn. I think alas is trying to put out fires, as opposed to starting new ones.

alas, I'm in a sorta similar situation here at work. In my case, it's the office libertarian who enjoys loudly proclaiming his wrongheadedness to the entire office. As soon as I showed my liberal liberal hand by debating him in the forum he chose, he pounced and hasn't quite let up. Around once a month, I'll get an intra-office email from him, usually with the subject line "Read" or "Article". My favorite so far was the one singing the praises of Geno "ENGLISH ONLY" Vento as a martyr for property rights and free speech. In that case, I dug around for some articles that contained quotes from the martyr in question (I remember specifically the one about how Mexicans are filthy and full of disease) and relayed them to him with a link to the article I'd read and a note from me to the effect of "Maybe this isn't the best guy to hold up as a shining example of, well, anything."

In short, there are always flaws and logic-holes you can drive the Enterprise through in these types of emails. If you have the time and the inclination, look into the stats in that email. Maybe check Snopes.com for more info. I've lost count of the number of emails I've batted down as bullshit thanks to Snopes. I tried checking there for this one, but couldn't find anything. Also, any unsourced quote or stretched attribution is suspect, obv.

Best of luck if you decide to engage.
 
 
Quantum
14:34 / 11.07.06
I love my folks, their idea of religious indoctrination is to send me things like this;

There’s a beautiful couplet from India that says the topic of the infinite is not a topic of conversation. All you can do is feel it, experience it, and then you will understand. The whole world wants to talk about what is infinite, about what is God, about what is life. But you cannot talk about life. Life needs to be felt. Do you feel alive? Prem Rawat
 
 
ibis the being
14:34 / 11.07.06
I have a big, conservative, religious family too. I have to confess I'm a little jealous that you get annoying forwards from yours, because I'm not even close enough with my family to get those. But that's not really helping you.... I guess the way I would look at it is that most people who send forwards like those barely even think about them - and neither should you. As casually and automatically as they hit send, so should you hit delete. If you felt they were really trying to convince you of anything than it might be worth arguing - but they probably just have you on a mailing list for annoying forwards, don't you think? In an odd way it's almost heartwarming in the way it demonstrates that they're not cordoning you off as "other" or different from the rest of the recipients. But maybe I'm just too biased from the other direction... I would love an annoying forward from my mom, she barely talks to me (boo hoo wah wah).

As far as the content of the email goes I'm a little confused... isn't it saying that by virtue of garnering a majority it's Bush who's hastening, or at least at the forefront of, the demise of the country? And isn't it also saying that this is an inevitable process built into the structure of the form of government? I don't get it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:38 / 11.07.06
Quantum, it's good that you still love your parents in spite of them sending you guff like that.
 
 
electric monk
14:38 / 11.07.06
Or to put it another way: Pretty much What They Said.
 
 
alas
14:39 / 11.07.06
Someone is trying to lure you into a fight. Don't take the bait

Actually, I'm sure it's not this--it really is my mom. My mom is sweet but kind of clueless. She's not evil, and she actually hates confrontation, she's just...poorly informed and doesn't think before hitting send.

FWIW, I'm comfortable with my relationship to Christianity, which is that it is a powerful myth (in the strongest, most positive sense of the term although it makes my relatives quake because they can only hear "false" in "myth"), and specifically one that has shaped my life, my culture, in many ways, and which is therefore still a significant part of who I am-- although I'm very skeptical of many things about it, esp. the way many believers frame it in terms of "belief" "truth" and "personal realtionship with Christ." ... I can use the language of liberal Christianity, and that's a possibility here.

I'm very tempted simply to focus on the whole bit about "good tax paying Americans" vs. "tenement dwellers" ... To, in my most diplomatic way, reply at least to my mom some of the statistics on the levels of government subsidies for farms (they are farmers) vs. cities (pretty sure I can find good stats on that), and to explain how rent-payers actually pay more in taxes than do property holders, as I did over in the headshop's "national language" thread re: immigrants.

As I have said, I do usually ignore these, but, for a variety of reasons, I think I need to engage her, specifically, on the ideological differences between us, at some level, at some point. Not so much to persuade her, maybe, as to get her to be more aware of, and possibly respect, my position a bit more. (I think. But I wonder how possible that is?)

I'm not willing to just cut off from her; I think I'd like to be in a more honest relationship with her. I'm trying to work out a) how, and b) timing.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:40 / 11.07.06
hmmm. Never thought I'd be glad that the only forwards I get from my dad are awful jokes and 'spread the joy' junk.

I'd lean towards not engaging. Or engaging very minimally. Is it appropriate to respond with:

'I disagree profoundly with the substance of this, and if you are interested in a discussion about why this is so, I'm happy to. If, however, you aren't going to take my counterpoints seriously, I'm not inclined to reply'

Would that be of any value? Registering your disagreement, and inviting an engagement, which you don't have to follow up if you're not going to get heard in any useful way?
 
 
alas
14:46 / 11.07.06
GGM--that's not a bad possibility for this. I might just do something along those lines--just maybe worded in a way that's tailored to my mom's sensitivities...and she really is a sensitive person when she's called on stuff. Must have a think. I like Haus's "musing" suggestion, too...hmmm.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:47 / 11.07.06
Well, since we're talking about religious Christian people, I suppose, you can always throw back at them some quotes from the Son of Man Himself:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them

But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee

Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops

Unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth

The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same.

The Kingdom is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish. Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear.

If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits. When you go into any land and walk about in the districts, if they receive you, eat what they will set before you, and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you

An other quotes that support a view that to help others is the key to the Kingdom of Heaven. You can always say, after Douglas Adams, that Jesus is "[A] man [who got] nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change".

And finish with this little jewel: What would Jesus do? He would help out those in need

(some refining may be necessary. I got all those from Wikiquote, btw)
 
 
Thorn Davis
14:50 / 11.07.06
"'I disagree profoundly with the substance of this, and if you are interested in a discussion about why this is so, I'm happy to. If, however, you aren't going to take my counterpoints seriously, I'm not inclined to reply'"

Bit formal for an email to your mum?

I'd go with other people's suggestions of ignoring it. I dunno. My mum often comes out with crazy stuff I don't agree with but I've never seen the value of getting stuck into an argument if it's likely to turn sour. Just know you disagree and maybe leave it at that.
 
 
Ticker
15:00 / 11.07.06
my dad sends me neo-con crap emails all the time. Especially the weird NRA paranoia stuff...yeesh. He even got me a membership to the NRA one year for my birthday which resulted in more junk mail than ever slushing into my house...and a Tom Selleck silver bullet! JOY!

I once sent him a very nice email that stated if he was going to send me things that expressed his views I would then send him things that expressed mine. If he found any of my emails offensive and asked me to stop sending them I would of course respect that...*ahem*

So I send him notes from my organic-produce watch dogs and from my pro-choice (he is pro-choice too just a die-hard republican) watch dogs.

I especially send tasty emails when he has forwarded me some blatant christian flavored claptrap. BECAUSE WE'RE NOT CHRISTIAN. The bad joke emails I tend to ignore unless they are out right bigoted in which case I send him nice emails explaining why that's bad.

We've gotten into a few email tussles over the exchanges but I feel he knows me better now and is less prone to send this crap out to the world.

Plus every once in a while I educate him about forwarding spam in the form of internet hoaxes and shoddy research.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:02 / 11.07.06
and a Tom Selleck silver bullet! JOY!

What, in case the Werewolves turn Tom Selleck and send him against us? But... but... Selleck is our champion!
 
 
Triplets
15:10 / 11.07.06
Rage Across Hawaii!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:35 / 11.07.06
sorry, I know the language is a bit formal (doing work writing, obviously overspilling!). I meant more, something that carries that message, but in ways which work for crossovers between Alas and her mother's forms of communication.
 
 
alas
16:42 / 11.07.06
xk--that's actually very helpful. Plus every once in a while I educate him about forwarding spam in the form of internet hoaxes and shoddy research. & This I have had to do repeatedly with my mother--Moms today! Will They Ever Learn!...

GGM--I gathered that you didn't intend a simple cut&paste. It's the idea of making it clear that I have some things to say, but I'll only get back to you with them if you really want to engage on this topic...that I like. There's possibly a way to make it an act of politeness...
 
 
Ticker
16:48 / 11.07.06
What, in case the Werewolves turn Tom Selleck and send him against us? But... but... Selleck is our champion!

He is indeed. This is his endorsed special bullet so you may strike down people afflicted by degenerative diseases with style!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:11 / 11.07.06
alas: you did, other people seemed not to have done. Although, it's a thought:

______________________
MEMO
______________________
To: Mother
______________________
From: Alas
______________________
Further to your correspondence of July XX, I would like to make you aware of certain divergences between your agenda and that of my organisation.

I am happy to faciliate a discussion of these divergences, but should perhaps inform you that simple refutation will result in a cessation of dialogue.

Looking forward to moving forward on this with you.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:16 / 11.07.06
seriously though, the 'act of politeness' was where I was trying to go...
 
 
grant
17:24 / 11.07.06
I get more or less the same stuff from my mom. Mostly I take the Jack Fear approach, but when it gets a little too much, as Haus and monk suggest, Snopes, Snopes, Snopes.


And here's why: Snopes doesn't call names. Snopes evaluates facts. Snopes gently, firmly points out the errors and those holes in logic large enough to drive a truck through. And Snopes also suggests places to read further -- often, they cite sources.

So when mom writes to me about the 10 Commandments being on display at the Supreme Court building, I can write back and say, well, yeah, but they're next to Confucius and they're on the back, not the front, because the idea was that they represented the legal tradition of the Eastern World, and that the front door had Solon over it, who wasn't exactly a Christian now, was he?

This can be time consuming, but parents hang on your every word regardless, and if you do it a couple times (and do it with kindness, like "well, that's very interesting, but this is damaging your case because..." as monk suggests), then thought happens.

Or, you know, you can start CCing everyone else on the fwd list, too.
 
 
whistler
11:06 / 12.07.06
xk I find your response really helpful because it gives me an insight into how 'difficult' contact with family-people can be engaged with creatively as a way towards more positive and honest ways of being family. This makes me think about new ways I might handle my next encounter with my fiercely Thatcherite bro-in-law.
Cheers!
 
 
Ticker
13:11 / 12.07.06
glad you found it useful, whistler!

..this AM I was greeted by 10 emails worth of forwards from my Dad, all of them slightly problematic jokes. Though last week he sent the chain mail about the tigeress raising piglets.
 
 
grant
15:02 / 12.07.06
I used to be horrible with the email forwards until a friend started filing all mine in a single folder, which he then showed me one day. It was... really full.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
06:20 / 13.07.06
I have an uncle who sends me every right wing chain e-mail. I see him once a year, and he asks if I'm still a hippie after reading "the truth" and I smile, nod and ask him about his local sports team.

Right now, most people see politics the same way they see their local sports team: They support them no matter what, and aren't really interested in hearing anyone else's opinion. Kind of like how you can get a crowd in Minneapolis to boo by mentioning Green Bay.
 
  
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