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When my head goes bad

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

15:45 / 07.07.06

I know I'm not the only one that does this.

But often -- not TOO often, I hope -- when I get in a contentious thread, I find my brain starts working triple-time on Proving I Am Right, and not so much on really thinking things over.

Which gets exceptionally frustrating, especially when you're dealing with people that have much stronger debate skills than you.

But there's no codified way of saying "say, I think I'm turning into an ass here," and bowing out of a thread without looking like you've totally capitulated. Which shouldn't bother me, but by golly, it does.

I'm wondering if those cleverer than I have already puzzled out a good way of calling a "time out" when you just need some time to think things over for a bit. Not just for my benefit, but maybe for those of others as well.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

15:57 / 07.07.06

A stunning example of this in "The High Society" thread in Convo right now, where I think I started talking out of my butt, and am faced with

(a) just not posting, which makes it look like I'm not taking comments engaging mine seriously, or

(b) posting that I need to think about it all more, which I think makes me look like an ass.

16:05 / 07.07.06

Go for the second option. Do it sincerely, without a hint of blame or petulance, and people will respect you for it.

16:34 / 07.07.06

It's the internet. Not posting at all is always an option.

Although I don't think looking like an ass is really as much of a thing as you think it is.

16:54 / 07.07.06

Actually, MS, my first thought when I read that you were going to step back and think things through was "good on you for being willing to say so." You did seem to be somewhat painting yourself into a corner where you might have soon found yourself arguing for positions that weren't quite what you really wanted to say (or at least that's how it looked to me, having been in that corner myself, many times). Best, in that case, to call a timeout.

Take the time to work it through and regroup, then come back prepared to either support your earlier statements with more fully considered arguments, or possibly disavow them (with a sincere apology, if necessary), and go from there.

It's not fun, but the alternative is worse.

17:25 / 07.07.06

Although I don't think looking like an ass is really as much of a thing as you think it is.

an intersting exercise to help make that clear is to try imagining another poster doing it.
how do you judge them?
i'll wager less harshly than you fear you will be judged.
would i win?

i reckon i agree with grant.
most folks fear is way out of proportion.

18:05 / 07.07.06

toksik is right, you know. One of the great things about Barbelith is that it doesn't put a great deal of stock in sticking to your guns and not backing down from a fight. I think that pretty much everyone who's been here for a while has, at some stage, thrown in a hand they were chancing their arm over. And I don't think any of us was made to feel weaker for doing so.

A rigorous assessment of your own arguments is as valuable and admirable as a rigorous assessment of other people's. And saying that you're wrong is the quickest route to being right again.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:17 / 07.07.06

Indeed. I really don't think someone backing down is making themselves look an ass. At least, I fucking hope not, anyway, otherwise I and many others would be somewhat asstastic. Which, y'know, I could well be, but I don't think that would be the reason.

18:21 / 07.07.06

well, you wouldnt.
ass.

18:24 / 07.07.06

i'm sorry.
i was wrong, and i realise that now.
stoatie isnt an ass any more than i am.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:34 / 07.07.06

You're a bigger man for saying that, toksik.

18:48 / 07.07.06

Did you just say his ass was big?

I'm so, so sorry for doing that to this thread.

*

21:12 / 07.07.06

Hey, Matt—

Thanks for starting this thread, actually. I'm going to come back to it whenever I feel too invested in being right, or having the right answer, or doing the right thing. It's something going through my head a lot lately, since a whole huge part of my self respect is bound up in whether I'm doing right or being right in some way. Sometimes that's productive— it makes me want to keep improving— but since no one can ever be right 100% of the time, and there are a lot of situations where there is no definitive right, it makes for a lot more heartache and stress than it's worth, I think.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:32 / 07.07.06

I agree entirely. There is no shame in realising and stating that you need to go away and think more about something, or in admitting you were wrong. I think the "High Society" thread is actually providing something of a masterclass in different ways to cope with posting too early.

In this case, too early in the morning. Night, all.

10:09 / 08.07.06

this thread may be of useful overlap.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:39 / 08.07.06

Matt, I think bowing out of a thread when one becomes unsure of one's own position is a really respectable thing to do, and people probably don't do it, let alone then admit they said something they're not sure is true, often enough.

Would it be wrong of me to ask you to post again in the thread or otherwise contact Dead Megatron to explain to him that you were not "yielding to peer pressure"? I wouldn't normally ask, but it seems that, since he can't be bothered to read the bell hooks piece in question, DM is basing his argument (in the loosest possible sense) on an interpretation of an interpretation which you have subsequently disowned...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:45 / 08.07.06

(ducks in advance of THIS thread turning into a "people thowing stuff" one as well)...

Fly, I am in complete agreement... but maybe a PM or something would have been better than bringing the inevitable fight into a thread that's by definition about not having it?

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

15:02 / 10.07.06

This is kind of my point, really... I said I might be bringing external baggage to the subject and "needed some time to think," and suddenly I was "disassociating" myself from things and "yielding to peer pressure" and have the feeling that I have to be on one "side" or another.

But I wasn't disassociating myself from my opinions, nor yielding to peer pressure, nor taking anybody's "side." When I think I'm wrong, I say I think I'm wrong -- in this case, I felt deeply unsure, so I just wanted to back off.

But backing off became a polarized thing, as much as continuing to post would have become a polarized thing. Had I kept going, I would have been engaging in a very wobbly argument that I didn't really whole-heartedly support but had sort of gotten myself fenced into. But by not continuing, I seem to have generated the opinion that I've essentially said "I was wrong." That's exactly what I didn't want to do.

I engage in these conversations as part of a growth process. Sometimes, I feel like I need to step back and take some space and reconsider things, but when I do that, there's an assumption -- as there was in that thread -- that I've abandoned ship on what I was saying and have leapt into the dark churning waters of I Was Totally Wrong.

But I just wanted some time to take a look at the map and the stars and pull out the ol' sextant and see if I really had the foggiest clue where I was going.

I want calling a "time out" to be a neutral space, not a "I was wrong" space. It's a subtle difference, but it's a real one.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:21 / 10.07.06

I said I might be bringing external baggage to the subject and "needed some time to think," and suddenly I was "disassociating" myself from things and "yielding to peer pressure"

Yeah... thing is, matt, Dead Megatron was the only person to talk about peer pressure, and you probably don't want to be reading him as the arbiter of what Barbelith feels, if such a thing there ever is.

Honestly, nobody enjoys saying "I was wrong", or having people think they were wrong, but am I on crack for suggesting that if you say "I need to go away and think more about this", and then somebody else says "so, anyway, now that Matt has admitted he was wrong...", the logical thing to do would simply be to come back with the refined argument and either say "Well, I didn't actually admit that I was wrong at all, but as it turns out I think I _was_ wrong, at least about x, y and z, but I think that this time away has helped me to firm up my thoughts a a, q and Uncle Maurice" or "Well, actually, I didn't admit I was wrong, and as it happens my time away has convinced me that I was in fact right, at least about a, b and c, and here's why"?

*

21:05 / 10.07.06

It's a bit harder to do that if you're still thinking, sure.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:29 / 11.07.06

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, id, but if it is pointing out that I'm stipulating an ideal set of behaviours that it is very hard to follow in anything like real life, you're bang on. This is ideal, and I doubt I could do it. Point taken.

*

00:39 / 11.07.06

Just saying that if one needs to take time out to think, that time might well allow others to say things or make assumptions about one that one does not feel prepared to correct in a timely manner without getting drawn back into a discussion one might still not be ready for. Assumptions once implanted are harder to get rid of than if they had been challenged immediately. It's a difficult situation, and I'm not quite sure what I'd do about it. Perhaps: "Hang on, I haven't said I was mistaken. I'm still thinking about it, and I'll let you know the minute I decide one way or another." Still not terribly satisfying, and people will still make their assumptions— and unfortunately those are more likely to be along the lines of "Well, there ze goes, still unable to admit ze was wrong and just trying to get out of backing up hir point..."

So, I don't know precisely.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

00:50 / 11.07.06

I think id's nailed it... I didn't want to post in, or even read, the thread until I'd had a good 24-36 hours away from it, and in that span of time all sorts of things had happened, including people drawing assumptions about what I was thinking about and why. And I'd already done the "I need time to think" dance twice, once initially and then replying to some things that people said about what I'd said before I said it the first time (take that, past tense!), and didn't want to repeat that whole thing again.

I don't know if there's a real "solution" or not, but id has nailed the situation that I found frustrating: taking time out, having assumptions made about why I was taking time out, and not wanting to "time in" to respond to the assumptions, because then that wouldn't be "time out" any more.