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Music should never be nostalgic: The music industry and the cult of the new

 
  

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sleazenation
16:38 / 23.06.06
In the Sandy Thom thread Flyboy expressed the opinion

Music should never be nostalgic: it can invoke the past, learn from the past, be inspired by the past, rip off the past even, just as long as it never does so with reverence.

This was further to a previous post where he noted the tendency that many music fans develop over time to idealize music of the past. As each generation grows that little bit older, so the goalposts of where ant particular golden age began, or ended, shift, but never enough so that people believe that they are living in a golden age.

Of course, the corollary of this nostalgia is a cult of the new whereby whatever music that is being released right now is privilidged by the virtue of its novelty. It need not actually be novel, it can refer to the past in any number of ways, but its key selling point is that you couldn't buy it last week, or last month.

And newness is not some single unified entity, as with any fetish, their are levels of newness, each more rarified and sought after. In the cult of the new, everyone wants to be first, no one wants to be second. Or rather, everyone wants to claim to be first.
(Actually being first is neither easy nor financially rewarding.) Throughout the empire of the new, there are many explorers, but few new territories being explored.

Record companies and music promoters and distributers kind of have a stake in the cult of the new. Their business model is to shift as many units as possible, and what better way to energise their efforts than to appeal to the fetish for newness. After all, newness as a quility is refreshingly free of bagage. It can promise much, but doesn't have to actually deliver anything and is free to evaporate over the course of a week or month.

So, what do people make of this cult of the new? Do you think it exists? Is it a good thing? A necessary evil? Something else?

What do you think?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:00 / 23.06.06
I'm not sure... but I like Wagner. Does this mean I shouldn't like music by people who treat Wagner with reverence? Laibach? In The Nursery? What's actually wrong with venerating the good shit from the past?

I think I need to have a think and come back to this one.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:26 / 23.06.06
I think perhaps the Flyboy was making the mistake of conflating the broad church of "Music" with the teeny-tiny subset more commonly called "Pop."

Which wouldn't be a typically Flyboy thing to do. No. Not at all.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:55 / 23.06.06
No, Jack, I wasn't. Music, of any kind, can be interested in the past, in investigating it, bringing it to light, all kinds of fascinating things like that. Nostalgia is a specific mindset that relies on ignorance, rather than knowledge, of the past.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:40 / 23.06.06
I should also clarify that I wasn't trying to say that people shouldn't treat particular pieces of music from the past with reverence - of course, treat the music you love with reverence, whenever it was made. However, when you either a) extrapolate from that that the particular time when that music was made should be treated with reverence (77 and 69!), or b) make music that treats the music of the past with such reverence that it contributes nothing else, then that's fucked up.

Going back to sleaze's original post... Obviously relentless neophilia can be just as harmful as nostalgia. However, a lot of the time I think the drive to hear something new is a very positive thing. It's not if it becomes dogma, or if you abandon stuff just because it's been out a few months or refuse to listen to stuff that was made a certain length of time ago. But it's natural for people to seek out things that have just been created - it's exciting, isn't it? - that thing of beauty didn't exist a month ago, and now it does! It's no different from wanting to read a new comic or watch a new episode of your favourite show...

Of course, that gets twisted by the music industry, because it's an industry. What can you do? Dismantle capitalism. But it's a big ask.

I'm not worried about a "cult of the new" because as sleaze says, genuinely new things tend to be scary, a lot of the time, to the music industry. What is hyped most tends to be the newest band that sounds like an old one rathet than new stuff, which is often initially treated as an 'unmusic' - just people shouting! - just repetitive beats! - just bits of other people's records cut up! New music often needs someone to stick up for it, rather than being "privileged".
 
 
sleazenation
22:22 / 23.06.06
But it's natural for people to seek out things that have just been created - it's exciting, isn't it? - that thing of beauty didn't exist a month ago, and now it does! It's no different from wanting to read a new comic or watch a new episode of your favourite show...

This is a bit that I find interesting. Is listening to a newly released single or a new comic or a new episode from a favourite TV show different from listening to a old track that you had never heard before, or an old comic you had never read, or an old episode of TV show you missed when it first came out?

I guess another way of putting it is to what extent is newness overt and arbitrary and to what extent is it relative to the person who is listening to it for the first time.

Consider a band that you loved as a teenager and that your friend has just discovered. He is completely blown away by them - is your reaction to this band the same as it was when you discovered them? Has your opinion changed over time? If so, does a lack of newness, from your own perspective, force you to judge the music by other criteria?

I guess another area that interests me is on the industry side. What is the average cost of an album? Are the back catalogues of a relatively small number of artists discounted or do the newer works of artists carry an extra premium surcharge on account of their nouveau nature? Are you better off waiting a few months for the newness to dispell and prices to drop (drastically if stock is being cleared)? Or does that just not happen?
 
 
sleazenation
22:26 / 23.06.06
What is the role of the 'champion' of new music?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
00:01 / 24.06.06
Can we talk about pop nostalgia, how people try and paint the past as a golden age, in some more detail?

I've been thinking about this. "Youth" is an interesting factor here- how the whole point of pop music was and is it's youth and energy, it's body and not it's thinky, but someone like (say) Bob Dylan, or even Mick Jagger, is revered now in 2006 for being not young, not energetic, being clever, wise- intellectualised in a way totally out of sync with the original Dylan from the 60s- because let's face it, he was a sex bomb, that's why he sold records- and something like Girls Aloud are lambasted for being young, physical, unintellectual (they don't write their own songs*!)- for being about just wanting to dance and get off with people- for being, in other words, the whole point.

If we look at Hendrix, who died in his prime, even he gets this treatment- he was important, the nostalgists would have us beleive, because he invented this or that guitar thing- this is bollocks, isn't it? Again, he was a sex bomb: the point wasn't that he fiddled with his guitar, the point was that at the time it sounded hott. Whereas GA in this case would get lambasted for not playing any isntruments, for not having learned "craftsmanship**".

So is that a fair model of how it works: young, sexualised, physical performer is gradually turned into intellectual figure?

*Even though Dylan et al are all famous for their covers.
**Even though the singing and dance routines they perform require near-constant rehearsal and input.
_______

I also think I've found something that proves Flyboy's point where he noted the tendency that many music fans develop over time to idealize music of the past. As each generation grows that little bit older, so the goalposts of where ant particular golden age began, or ended, shift, but never enough so that people believe that they are living in a golden age. Ladeez and Gents, I give you Phillip Larkin on Jazz, circa 1970:

"I felt I was in some nightmare, in which I had confidently gone into an examination hall only to find I couldn't make head or tail of the questions. It wasn't like listening to a kind of jazz I didn't care for-Art Tatum, shall I say, or Jelly Roll Morton's Red Hot Peppers. It wasn't like listening to jazz at all. Nearly every characteristic of the music had been neatly inverted: for instance, the jazz tone, distinguished from 'straight' practice by an almost-human vibrato, had entirely disapperaed, giving way to utter flaccidity. Had the most original feature of jazz been its use of collective improvisation? Banish it: let the first and last choruses be identical excercises in low-temperature unison. Was jazz instrumentation based on the hock-shop trumpets, trombones, clarinets of returned Civil War regiments? Brace yourself for flutes, harpsichords, electronically-amplified bassoons. Had jazz been essentially a popular art, full of tunes you could whistle? Something fundamentally awful had taken place to ensure there should be no more tunes. Had the wonderful thing about it been its happy, cake-walky syncopation that set feet tapping and shoulders jerking? Any such feelings were now regularly dispelled by random explosions from the drummer ('dropping bombs') and the use of non-jazz tempos, 3/4, 5/8, 11/4. Above all, was jazz the music of the American Negro? Then fill it full of conga drums and sambas and all the tawdry trappings of South America, the racket of Middle East bazaars, the cobra-coaxing caphonies of Calcutta".(From "All What Jazz, Faber and Faber, London, 1970)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:14 / 24.06.06
Of course, that gets twisted by the music industry, because it's an industry. What can you do? Dismantle capitalism. But it's a big ask.

Sorry, but balls to that. And "ask" IS NOT A FUCKING NOUN!!!


Do people actually care whether stuff is "new" or "classic"? Do they really? Shouldn't they care more about whether it actually sounds good? Whether they enjoy it?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
00:22 / 24.06.06
Balls to what?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
00:53 / 24.06.06
To Monty?
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:16 / 24.06.06
Is listening to a newly released single or a new comic or a new episode from a favourite TV show different from listening to a old track that you had never heard before, or an old comic you had never read, or an old episode of TV show you missed when it first came out?

Yeah, it's different, especially with comics and TV. In a comic or show you like, part of the pleasure you get from a new episode is finding out what happens next (how will Batman get out of this one, etc.) But if you watch an old episode you haven't seen, you get a different kind of pleasure, i.e., reconstructing the chain of events that get to the new stuff you like. I think the music analogy is pretty clear (meaning, I need to have a coffee now and won't bother explaining properly).
 
 
sleazenation
10:00 / 24.06.06
Jackie - can you please come back and explain it properly once you have had your coffee?

I'm on sound foundations with comics and TV, but less so with music, so if you think they work in different ways, I'd like to know how.

This is a vague and indistinct thread in which I am grappling around with as much as anyone else.

Having said which, i'm not entirely sure this is the place to be talking about nostalgia itself as much as new stuff, and how its very newness effects our interactions.
 
 
Seth
13:14 / 24.06.06
I’m an unashamed Cult of The New zealot. I’m proud to be. It’s practically a moral imperative for me. This is for a few reasons.

Firstly, what is new can be worked with and experienced now. I can meet people who are working on it or who are fresh faced from doing it. I can talk to them and share ideas about what is now. I can go and see a band performing those songs. I can sometimes hook up with them and make music with them, they can make music with me.

I mean, I’m sad that I never got to see Company Flow or that gig where Mogwai and Godspeed jammed together onstage. But I have to balance that with having played with Aids Wolf and Afrirampo… it’s no contest really. As much as I love Co Flow they only exist in memory and archive now. They’re gone, they’re past, they can no longer be accessed fully and completely, only as a what they recorded to disc before they split. The sensory-in-the-moment of being there when it happens is not just some chasing after novelty, it is partaking at the point of creation, or as close as its possible to get.

Secondly, people creating music that’s new (don’t misread as innovative) probably won’t have backing. They don’t have money behind them, they sleep on floors or in cars when they tour. People haven’t heard of them, and most people won’t come to see a live band unless they’re already familiar with the music they make. Venue owners set prices so high for the hire of the space that you can’t afford to pay them very much when you put them on for a show. Almost every event runs at a loss.

If I have a spare space on my floor I can offer it up. If I can get a song on the radio or added to a DJ playlist then if it’s a choice between an old favourite that I know people love or something new that I believe people will love if only they got to hear it then I’ll do the latter. If I can buy someone a drink, or talk about their band, or play someone the discs, or hand out flyers, negotiate with venues, try to persuade people who profess to love live music to take a risk on something they’ll have never heard… it’s all valuable stuff and all easily done. It makes a difference.

Yes, it’s still exciting to partake of the archive if you’ve never heard it before. For example, I’m hopelessly addicted to Bailey and Feldman. But I can’t meet up with Bailey and make music with him, or play Feldman my music that was inspired by him to hear what he thinks of it.

Thirdly, a lot of old music has had a lot written about it. You’ll overhear your mates debate it down at the pub, it’ll be talked over on telly or in the papers. You’ll read interviews with bands that you love who will talk about how influential it all was for them growing up (and chances are they’ll have been there at the time for it to have had that influence). And a strange thing starts to happen…

After a while you’ll have a working model of what these bands were like. How they sounded, how they dressed, what they believed… and then when you actually encounter them they’re horribly disappointing. I’d take my mythologised David Bowie over the real thing any day. Same with Led Zeppelin. You know, I won’t disrespect the influence they’ve had and how much other people love them. That’s all cool and good. I just prefer the version of them I had in my head to actually listening to the archives of the real thing.

I love music, but what’s happening now is imperative. There are elements of the enthusiastic archivist to me as well, but given an impossible choice between the two there really isn’t a choice.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:52 / 24.06.06
I have absolutely no idea which part I was saying "balls" to, to be honest. I appear to have lost a couple of hours last night. I've reread the whol post in question, and still have not a clue. But "ask" is still a verb, though.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:24 / 24.06.06
That's okay, Stoatie, I mean I was compressing some fairly long and contentious paragraphs into about three words there. But "big ask" was used, um, ironically.

The other thing I meant to say was that being into "new" music is a very relative thing. There are music forums and people I know who consistently make me feel like a hapless, slow-witted Jonny-come-lately, and there are also people I know who have told me they consider to be a bleeding-edge neophile. The same can be said of the Barbelith Music forum in general - it all depends on your perspective.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:41 / 24.06.06
As a soundtrack to balmy summer evenings, 'Figure Eight' by Elliot Smith is very good.
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:17 / 25.06.06
Sleaze, I'll give it a go.

Part of the pleasure of, to pick a pretty random example, the new Ciara/Chamillionaire single (Get up - it's awesome, if you haven't heard it) is that you haven't heard anything quite like it before - it reworks a set of musical elements and conventions that are familiar and that (if you like the genre) you enjoy, but it organises them in a way you haven't seen before - it takes them somewhere new. To me, the analogy is that a new episode of (say) the Sopranos takes a familiar cast, set of situations, etc., but ends up somewhere new.

Whereas the pleasure of, say, um, I am actually struggling to think of an old track I've heard for the first time recently. For the sake of argument, I'll go with Gangsta Gangsta by Beanie Siegel, because I can at least remember the first time I heard it. I was already a Beans fan, so I got some of the first-time-new-song pleasure, but another part was 'Here is Beanie, who I love now, earlier in his career; this is part of his development, how we got to where he is now; I can hear things in this that only developed more fully later on, but also things that are now only echoes of what he was doing then'. This is probably more true at the generic level (i.e., if I listen to an early 90s rnb tune I haven't heard before) than with ref. to particular songs. But I think it holds, as a general rule.

(That said, I did hear an old Kardinal Offishal song (Bang Bang, sampling Nancy Sinatra) the other day, and it was much more like the first kind of pleasure than the second. But it was only a couple years old - there may have to be a longer delay for my theory to hold.

On the other hand, it's also exciting to hear something new because you're getting it first. You get to share it with your friends and know your enemies have yet to experience it's glory. That's a petty kind of pleasure in some ways, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
 
 
rizla mission
11:53 / 26.06.06
I've been thinking about this. "Youth" is an interesting factor here- how the whole point of pop music was and is it's youth and energy, it's body and not it's thinky, but someone like (say) Bob Dylan, or even Mick Jagger, is revered now in 2006 for being not young, not energetic, being clever, wise- intellectualised in a way totally out of sync with the original Dylan from the 60s- because let's face it, he was a sex bomb, that's why he sold records- and something like Girls Aloud are lambasted for being young, physical, unintellectual (they don't write their own songs*!)- for being about just wanting to dance and get off with people- for being, in other words, the whole point.

Hang on a minute;

The modern day Mick Jagger is revered for being 'clever'..?

Bob Dylan sold records primarily through sex appeal..?

Not a very constructive point to make here I'm afraid, but I fear Legba Rex is living in mad-world.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:29 / 26.06.06
As a sidenote - Def Leppard, interviewed recently, pointed out that, as aging rockers, they have learned a trick from Mick Jagger - that if you run around in the last five minutes of your concert, people will go away thinking that you were doing it for the whole gig.

More generally, I think I sort of see the point, although I'm not sure about the examples - musicians want to keep making money, so after a point they have to find reasons other than those for which they were originally marketed, which often have to do with youth. So, U2 were angry young radicals, then became ironists, then became elder statesmen. Bowie was androgyny and dangerous sex and is now a connoisseur of modern art and thoroughly decent bloke. Rod Stewart was young and horny, and is now a kind of nostalgia experience of what it was like to listen to Rod Stewart the first time around. All of these things possibly deform what you might want popular music to be, which is neophilic, or possibly the pressure to be in some way new forces these changes of presentation. This is not, i think, though, a hugely new concept, although it is probably accelerating as people have more disposable income and less willingness to move on to other forms of music - Elvis, after all, had a whole mess of comebacks in various forms.
 
 
rizla mission
13:11 / 26.06.06
And now to make a possibly more constructive point. I'm chasin' these ideas like the proverbial hound, so apologies if it's inconsistant and makes no sense;

To what extent is it the case that the conceptions of 'nostalgia' vs 'innovation' used in this thread express a mindset that has maybe only been prevalent amongst Western music fans since about the advent of punk (which here I use as shorthand for the various explosions of self-consciously New music that took place across the board in the late 70s / early 80s)...?

It seems to me that the current thinking of yr average smart music fan - a front-loading of innovation as a prime virtue and an immediate disdain for generic classicism - had it's genesis around this period, and prior to that things were donw a little differently.

Can a reverence for GENRE be seperated from 'nostalgia' for a specific time or social context?
eg, can a damn good blues record be said to be a damn good blues record or a reggae record a good reggae record, and enjoyed as such, regardless of when / where it was made or whether or not it throws anything new into the mix?

Chances are, a lot of people who listen to said record aren't going to give a damn either way; they like blues or reggae, the record in question will kick some ass and provide a whole lot more of it and everyone's a winner, and in what way is that a bad thing?

Of course I'm playing devil's advocate here to a certain extent as I'm raised n' baptised in the same 'post-punk' consensus as everyone else, and am guilty as anyone of holding forth at great length on who was doing what FIRST, and why they were thus BETTER than whoever's doing it now. So regardless of their objective virtues or lack thereof, Primal Scream piss me off by persisting in sounding exactly like the Rolling Stones, probably much in the same way that the Rolling Stones pissed off the world's folk scholars and black music fans back in the day by sounding exactly like Mississippi Fred McDowell, Chuck Berry et al. I guess whether or not Fred McDowell pissed anyone off by sounding like the natural continuation of of a complex lineage of documented and undocumented folk performers stretching back into venerable antiquity remains unrecorded, but... er, where exactly am I heading with this? I dunno, I forget.

Anyway, back on track; the post-punk innovation-lovin' paradigm is far from a bad thing and has helped drive things forward into all manner of awesome, crazy, unguessable directions in terms of both performance and critical perception over the past few decades.... but nonetheless it's important to recognise it as a mere mindset - map not territory - and to bypass it when, as in the past few years, it becomes the mainstream and starts propagating the same pitfalls and lazy cliches of the rockist classicism it supposedly superceded.

At every given time, 90% of new music exists as a collage of different varieties of old, and in their quest to celebrate what they want to believe is new & exciting, many lazier/dumber writers simply end up promoting one brand of 'old' over another. If a group roll up sounding like the Groundhogs, they'll be laughed off as a retrograde joke. If they sound like the Fire Engines, they'll be on the cover of NME and allowed to speak of noise and sparks and riots and what have you. This is all basically historical stuff, so why is revisiting 25 years ago so much more palatable than revisiting 35 years ago...? I'd tempted to say: because of the inbuilt tastes and prejudices of the generation who are currently editing the magazines and writing the cheques.

They fought their battles for scratchy guitars, reappropriated funk rhythms, white working class polemic and generalised rock primitivism, and now they're in the bosses chair they can push it on the public, 20 years of slow-building acceptance having nullified it's shock and awe.

Maybe sometime in the future we'll have a changing of the guards and the Flyboy blogosphere generation will take hold, allowing various varieties of self-assured, socially conscious populist party music to rule the roost... here's hoping!

Meanwhile, thew vast majortiy of people around the world who make, listen to, dance to and love music continue to do what they do and not give a fuck about any of the above, and good for them.
 
 
Proinsias
13:31 / 26.06.06
Whereas the pleasure of, say, um, I am actually struggling to think of an old track I've heard for the first time recently

I think, I hope, the point sleaze was making was relating to an old track or artist you have never heard before. It can be just as powerful, if not moreso, than hearing new music. Like being blown away by guitar solos of 69/77!, thinking this was free, new music and then hearing Charlie Parker wiping the floor with them 20/30 years before. Or seeing Bob Dylan as some kind of revolutionary god only to hear a Woody Guthrie record years later and realize he wasn't that unique. Yeah new music can be groundbreaking and fresh but that can also be to do with not being familiar with the influences of the band - ignorance is bliss.

I've never herd seths band before, I've also never listened to Morton Feldman. Not to take anything away from Seth but if I heard his band live knowing nothing about them or Feldman it may be the case that the areas which really blow me away could be ascribed to the influence of Feldman or someone else more so than the originality of the band.

Does everyone who listens to Dre realize they are listening to someone rapping over a George Clinton album?* Does hearing the roots of a 'new style' of music and realizing it ain't all that new cheapen the initail OMG!!! WTF!!! you got when first hearing it?

*Perhaps a bit harsh
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:38 / 26.06.06
It's not a question of it being harsh or not, is it? It's a question of it being hyperbolic rhetoric designed to emphasise the point that you think either Dr Dre, Andre 3000 or possibly another Dre is heavily influenced by and/or reminiscent of George Clinton.
 
 
Proinsias
13:39 / 26.06.06
whoops, crossposted with someone who thought a little more about about it than me.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:11 / 26.06.06
The modern day Mick Jagger is revered for being 'clever'..?

Bob Dylan sold records primarily through sex appeal..?

Not a very constructive point to make here I'm afraid, but I fear Legba Rex is living in mad-world.


No, I'm not, although I didn't put my points across well. In the mainstream music press, who gets more respect as a creative, thinking individual, and who gets credited with being a "revolutionary"? Mick Jagger or Girls Aloud? I mean, come on.

My point about Dylan needed to be more subtle. What I'm saying is that he would not have got where he was if he was a tubby geek, that yes, sex appeal, as with all pop stars, is a large part of the package and that again the press discount this part of Dylan and slag off GA for being "just about sex" etc. Surely you've seen thus in action, I mean Flyboy's talked about it loads...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:19 / 26.06.06
Eh, I think the problem is that rizla has interpreted "that's why he sold records" as "that's PRIMARILY why he sold records". I think very very very few people have ever bought a record primarily because they fancied the artist. It just adds a bit of spice - and Dylan's cheekbones probably didn't hurt (unless you bumped into one).
 
 
rizla mission
14:50 / 26.06.06
My point about Dylan needed to be more subtle. What I'm saying is that he would not have got where he was if he was a tubby geek, that yes, sex appeal, as with all pop stars, is a large part of the package and that again the press discount this part of Dylan and slag off GA for being "just about sex" etc. Surely you've seen thus in action, I mean Flyboy's talked about it loads...

Fair point, yes - apologies for being snidey.

(Not sure Dylan's the best example tho... if anything I'd imagine he's possibly the LEAST immediately sexy '60s recording star I can think of, but, er, I'll quit now before going off-topic too much..)
 
 
Proinsias
15:17 / 26.06.06
It's not a question of it being harsh or not, is it

No, just put the star there incase any Dr.Dre fanatics though I was trying to discredit his genius.

you think either Dr Dre, Andre 3000 or possibly another Dre is heavily influenced by and/or reminiscent of George Clinton

Well yes, and that an awful lot of music that I considered original sounding turned out to be, sometimes an inferior, rehashing of something I'd never heard of. As Rizla said:

At every given time, 90% of new music exists as a collage of different varieties of old

I enjoy listening to older influences and versions - my hate for Fatboy Slim increased condsiderbly after hearing Praise Yo' Self a few years ago.

I just never got the excitment generated by new music and see very little difference between new music and old music I've never heard - aside from perhaps the obvious sound of advancements in technology, producing etc.

Perhaps I'm just to lazy to keep up to speed with music

I think very very very few people have ever bought a record primarily because they fancied the artist

Does my copy of the Britney DVD count - as a secondary justification my SO does appriciate Brineys' music.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:21 / 26.06.06
Your SO has excellent taste.
 
 
illmatic
15:23 / 26.06.06
Can a reverence for GENRE be seperated from 'nostalgia' for a specific time or social context?

eg, can a damn good blues record be said to be a damn good blues record or a reggae record a good reggae record, and enjoyed as such, regardless of when / where it was made or whether or not it throws anything new into the mix?


Bit of a tangent to what you posted, Riz - for me, a side effect of being into certain genres has been a fascination with the society and culture that produced it, both today and in the past. For me, any "nostalgic" feelings for periods of music I might have collapse as I realise the continuity between musicians/studios/producers over years and different sub-genres, and have more of an understanding of the changing social conditions which have fed it. This is perhpas the opposite of the ahistoricism that Flyboy's mentioned previously. (And yes, I am talking about reggae again, surprise, surprise).
 
 
Proinsias
15:23 / 26.06.06
As do I
 
 
Seth
17:37 / 26.06.06
I've never herd seths band before, I've also never listened to Morton Feldman. Not to take anything away from Seth but if I heard his band live knowing nothing about them or Feldman it may be the case that the areas which really blow me away could be ascribed to the influence of Feldman or someone else more so than the originality of the band.

You probably would be blown away by some of the stuff that's been an influence in a lot of bands if you'd never heard it. I mean, Coldplay are all huge Flaming Lips fans. It doesn't show in their sound, but if I'd encountered the Lips for the first time from Chris Martin's recommendation I'd be a lot more impressed by the influence than then influenced.

But I made the distinction between "new" and "innovative." Pretty much all of my post is about celebrating what is new for the simple reason that it's about what's happening now (rather than it being innovative), a point of time that can you can experience and interact with now rather than listening to the recordings that were made of what was happening then. The artist is making, talking about and performing the music at a point in time when you can go and see them do it, possibly even talk to them about it, meet them and get involved. What is now is participatory, if you want to participate.

The references I made to Bailey and Feldman were largely because they're dead. They will produce no new works, although we're likely to get releases from them for a while yet because of the glut of recorded works of the latter that have never seen release and the number of the latter's compositions that have never been played. And that's awesome. But it's not going to be possible to have fresh interaction with the people themselves. They're gone, and what we have left is interview transcripts, archive recordings, and in the case of Feldman fresh interpretations and recordings of his scores.

So I mention them not to belittle them - or pretend to "better" them - but to illustrate that they're lost in the sense of what is bought to the table by a living artist who is currently producing the work that most interests and inspires you. In a sense, artists like Bowie who are still alive and working have the same issue. You can't interact with the Bowie who made Station to Station. The guy can't even remember recording it! That's not to ludicrously take the stance that Station to Station doesn't exist: it clearly does. But it exists as an archive, not just as an album but the photos and interviews from that period.

To enthusiastically explore that archive is cool and I'm not knocking it, but access to the man at the point of creation is gone. I can't walk up to the mixing desk and boost the drums in the mix and have interacting with Bowie at that point potentially shape the way that album is heard by millions. I can with the bands and artists who are around in my vicinity today. I can't have a "Why not do it that way?" conversation with Station to Station era Bowie. And crucially, I'd prefer the creative input of the Bowie of that era into my music than the input of Bowie now.

My argument isn't about creating new sounds that have never been heard before. It's about celebrating the now as the point of creation, about being able to participate and help shape what is now. Perhaps it's an irrelevant argument if the extent of your experience of music is buying a few records each year. It becomes relevant when you find an artist who's new to you, at the specific point when you sigh to yourself and say, "I wish I could have seen them perform those songs live."

(As an aside, if you can hear Feldman in Hunting Lodge I'd be slightly curious about how you developed such strange powers of discernment... it's the anti-Feldman. HL are all about ripping of Kelis and MIA beats, and I'd celebrate both Kelis and MIA as just as good, if not better, than us. It's not a question of what's better or worse as music, it's a question of wanting to experience what is there to experience now.)
 
 
Seth
17:50 / 26.06.06
To put it another way: music isn't just about albums. Recorded music hasn't been around that long, and it's only a tiny fraction of the tip of the iceberg in terms of the music that is being made. The concern of the "now" being most important are vital when you consider that only a minute portion of music ends up in a form that you can pay your £12.99 for and have sitting on your shelf.
 
 
SteppersFan
19:13 / 26.06.06
Seth is right, what is happening now can be important. Too many artists are only valued in retrospect. That's why I'm trying quite hard to support the dubstep scene and, frankly, make some money for the artists. It's a given that all their records will be seen as classics in five years. It is not a given that they will make any money at all out of music while they are doing it.

The thread is oscillating interestingly between discussion of nostalgia per se and newness versus innovation. I guess it's obvious that most musical innovation isn't - you can almost always trace supposed innovators' antecedents - hence the sub-po-mo value attached to curatorship and contextualisation in pop and rock. However, I'd have thought that a discussion of nostalgia would focus on the current UK rock scene, which many people seem to think both nostlagic and derivative, and often judged "conservative". I'm thinking of Franz Ferdinand, the Killers and Arctic Monkeys being seen as nostalgic, intelligence-free retreads of Gang of Four, A Flock of Seagulls and The Clash. Do these bands represent the pejorative "nasty-algia" described by FlyBoy? Does their popularity imply that "the kids have gone soft, gone straight, gone Tory"?

And another related tangent: "scenius" as opposed to genius. Maybe it's a given that artists are rarely if ever doing something new - but that when "scenes" generate, when fans come together and create a buzz around artists or groups of artists, it is always as if it is for the first time. Certainly it is if you are "inside" it - especially if you're seventeen. Is nostalgia in the pejorative sense vanishingly unlikely when viewed from the point of view of the fans?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:43 / 26.06.06
Would anyone inside the scenes that have had the term "scenius" applied to them recognise the term?
 
  

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