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Tao Te Ching verse 81

 
 
foolish fat finger
12:01 / 13.06.06
Tao Te Ching verse 81
True words are not beautiful.
Beautiful words are not truthful.
The good do not argue.
Those who argue are not good.
Those who know are not scholarly.
The scholarly do not know.

The wise do not hoard.
The more they give to others, the more they have.
The Way of heaven benefits and does not harm.
The Way of the wise accomplishes without striving.


I lost my equilibrium lately. I was looking for the verse within myself but I had forgotten it, due to my restless mind. now I found it again. perhaps I will remember it this time.
I have posted it here in case anyone else has forgotten this verse. also, because I think a friend here will find it of interest. peace.

as always, ideas and thoughts are welcome.
 
 
Smoothly
12:09 / 13.06.06
It's balls, innit.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:16 / 13.06.06
The second half isn't so bad. The first is utter rot, every line of it, as Keats would tell you. Perhaps this is where you've been going wrong, wnf?

"Those who argue are not good. / Those who know are not scholarly." = "lalala I'm not listening!" for the just-been-PWND set.
 
 
Smoothly
12:33 / 13.06.06
Beautiful words are not truthful.

BB Grace’s mantra.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:38 / 13.06.06
The first verse is like Yoda. At the end it should go "Seeee? you do"
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:47 / 13.06.06
Those who argue are not good

Which makes Barbelith the biggest collection of evil-doers since Lex put The Society together.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:54 / 13.06.06
This isn't an unfamiliar idea: debate and discussion being bad, illusory, worldly distractions crops up in various forms of worldview...
 
 
illmatic
13:02 / 13.06.06
People slagging off the Tao Te Ching the little jade Taoist in my heart cry. That’s what you get for posting it in Conversation, WNF. Mind you if you posted it in The Temple, Gods only know if you’d get a better response (I’m really bored with that forum right now).

In my readings of Taosist stuff, both the good and the bad are often two sides of a polarity the author is trying to nudge you past. Don’t think that holds for this verse but it’s worth bearing in mind.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:07 / 13.06.06
You're right that doesn't hold for this verse - if it did, then perhaps it would go:

True words are not beautiful.
But beautiful words are truthful.
The good do not argue.
But those who argue are good.
Those who know are scholarly.
But the scholarly do not know.


Aha! Do you see? Contradictions which one must think past! As it is, the first verse could be summarised:

I don't trust.
Those fancypants smartarses.
With their big words and their 'thinking'.
 
 
illmatic
13:19 / 13.06.06
Wise words then.

There are some other verses which do contain this kind of suggestion- of-something beyond dual oppositions – the fact that the text isn’t internally consistent is part of the case for it not being written by one author/Lao Tzu being a mythical figure. I think one interesting thing in that verse as it stands is it brings up is what is the “good “and the “truthful” in our experience and how often do we see or feel ourselves to be acting from that? Not often when timewasting on the internet!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:26 / 13.06.06
I feel myself to be acting from the good and the truthful when I attempt to debunk anti-intellectual claptrap wherever I find it!
 
 
illmatic
13:31 / 13.06.06
Well, how I read it is that there's a lot of areas of our life which aren't covered by our verbal formulations, and we can get tripped up by said formualtions quite frequently. YMMV.

Anyhow, I'm curious as to wwhy WNF was quoting it. I hope it wasn't with reference to arguements elsewhere on the board.
 
 
illmatic
14:39 / 13.06.06
... or rather: I don't think he meant it in an annoying "HA! All argument is stupid! Stupid Barbelith!" sort of way.
 
 
foolish fat finger
14:41 / 13.06.06
thankyou to everyone for their posts.

Illmatic, thankyou. I posted because after a week where I felt caught up in my own ego, or trying to prove something, this one verse turned out to be the answer I was looking for. It has allowed my mind to rest; if others find something useful here, then that is good.

from many positions down to one; I often find the Tao te Ching puts a full-stop to my ever-restless, ever-grasping mind.

Blessings to all.
 
 
illmatic
14:53 / 13.06.06
I think you and Flyboy should do a taoist mind meld. I got thte idea from this great new book I got. Where's it gone? It's by Barefoot someone....
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:40 / 13.06.06
Wow, aren't belief systems that put a stop to your mind great!
 
 
Smoothly
15:43 / 13.06.06
Instilled in the right people, they could be a boon.
 
 
*
16:34 / 13.06.06
There's a lesser-known verse in the Tao Te Ching which says:

Those who pervert true wisdom
for lame-rabbit ends*
have left the Way.
The Superior Man
does not need the words of a Sage**
to feel superior.
When seeking the Source
cast your eye within
and not without.


*Lame-rabbit, according to its context in a few other verses of the period, seems to mean something like what we would today call "passive aggression," but as yet we don't have the background story to account for why this is.

**lit. tao-ren or person of the Way.

Thoughts?
 
 
illmatic
18:34 / 13.06.06
I'll look that verse up tonight, entity, and come back with some thoughts tomorrow.
 
 
illmatic
18:47 / 13.06.06
What verse is that? Can't find it on first hunt.
 
 
*
02:33 / 14.06.06
Verse 3.141592654... left out of most translations because the editors couldn't figure out how to squeeze it in between 3 and 4 where it belongs. Also it is of dubious authenticity, as I just made it up to take the piss.
 
 
grant
03:41 / 14.06.06
Here's a few translations of ch. 81 -- as you can see, the "good do not argue" bit can also be taken as a condemnation of advertising & propaganda -- it's not arguing in the sense of debate, but in the sense of using pretty words to persuade, rather than speaking plainly. (Think of televised political debates, perhaps.)

This is also probably a critique of prior philosophers (I'm guessing Legalists, but I'd have to look it up to be sure -- they were pugnacious, dogmatic book-burners).

Here's yet another translation that seems like it'd be closer to the Chinese:

1. Sincere words are not fine; fine words are not sincere. Those who are skilled (in the Tao) do not dispute (about it); the disputatious are not skilled in it. Those who know (the Tao) are not extensively learned; the extensively learned do not know it.

2. The sage does not accumulate (for himself). The more that he expends for others, the more does he possess of his own; the more that he gives to others, the more does he have himself.

3. With all the sharpness of the Way of Heaven, it injures not; with all the doing in the way of the sage he does not strive.


And here's one more that purports to be "simple", as in taking each Chinese word and translating it, rather than relying on a presumption about what Taoism is to create whole paragraphs. (And if you want to do your own, knock yourself out.) :
True words are not embellished
Embellished words are not truthful
To be right is not to be argumentative
To be argumentative is not to be right
To be knowing is not to be sophisticated
To be sophisticated is not to be knowing
Wise ones do not accumulate
Though intending to act on behalf of another
The more they themselves have gained
Though intending to give to another
The more they themselves are increased
Heaven’s way is to benefit, but without doing harm
The wise ones’ way is to work, but without competition


It's also notable that this is the last chapter of the Tao teh ching/Daodejing, and probably Laozi's way of saying he was just this guy who didn't want to make waves and didn't see himself as a scholar (but was probably better off than the scholars anyway). (The story goes that Laozi wrote his book for a border guard on his way into a self-imposed exile, so it's tempting to read the whole thing as a big "fuck you" to everyone who done him wrong. There's another persuasive story that goes there was actually no such person as Laozi, who was just a useful composite like in New York magazine.)
 
 
grant
03:44 / 14.06.06
More on the dangers of translation.
 
 
iamus
03:51 / 14.06.06
Okay, while I'm certainly of the opinion that no text, no matter how sacred, should be exempt from harsh scrutiny, I think it's being a little premature to declare this as bollocks, especially since you're going from only one translation. Since a lot of the words used can't be directly translated, I think the least amount of work you can do before making judgements is to compare against another interpretation in order to triangulate what's intended. I think that's doubly important in a text as riddled with hidden meaning as the Tao Te Ching. Also bear in mind this is only one verse, being looked at out of context with the rest of the work.

Here's another translation anyhow (Ursula Le Guin):

True words aren't charming,
charming words aren't true.
Good people aren't contentious,
contentious people aren't good.
People who know aren't learned,
learned people don't know.

Wise souls don't hoard;
the more they do for others the more they have,
the more they give the richer they are.
The Way of heaven profits without destroying.
Doing without outdoing
is the way of the wise.



Here's how I'd interpret. I ain't no Taoist scholar.

True words aren't charming, charming words aren't true.

Truth is the essence, the actual thing/concept you're trying to describe. Language, as an abstraction of that Truth, should exist only to point the way to it. A word that is charming/beautiful in and of itself is serving two masters. It is declaring itself when it should only be declaring the thing it describes.

The Truth of a table is not the intricately-carved dragons or the lovely acid-etched phoenix. The Truth of a table is the flat bit you put stuff on and the four legs that stop it from crashing to the floor.

Economy of language. The more florid and complex it is, the further it gets from its intended fuction, the more it exists to serve itself.


Good people aren't contentious, contentious people aren't good.

NOT saying that you shouldn't express contrary viewpoints, just that to do so through argument is to put yourself in a position of weakness. To enter into argument is to allow the expression of your own viewpoint be defined by the other through opposition. There are more effective ways to propogate your ideas than through direct confrontation. Confrontation increases visibility, which escalates defences. Wiser birds go round the corner (as I heard Ian McKellen say once). The softest thing in the world shall lead the hardest.

People who know aren't learned, learned people don't know.

Cultivated Taoism encourages a different way of thinking. The favoured method of learning in the world, narrows the scope of knowledge the further you go. Primary school gives an overview of everything. High School moves from overview to more selected subjects. College and Uni narrow the field of study even more until the scholar commits to specialist fields. Knowledge builds like a pyramid, getting smaller the further you go.

Taoist thought grows through the workings of the body, how that relates to the world and how that relates to the universe, increasing exponentially in scope as it goes. It is a holistic way of thinking that does not see knowledge as something to be aquired and filed, but as a habitat to be lived in. For a Cultivated Taoist, knowledge flows in and out like water, and should not be grasped. This is a harder concept to get, but has a wealth of writing and methodology backing it up.



That's the jist of what I get from it anyhow. Can't be arsed doing the rest 'cause it's six in the morning, but that seems to be the bit that's causing the most trouble.
 
 
iamus
03:53 / 14.06.06
Ah......


What grant says.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:37 / 14.06.06
The softest thing in the world shall lead the hardest.

Are we talking about Steven Seagal's penis? If not, can we?
 
 
iamus
07:55 / 14.06.06
I can't think of any situation that wouldn't be enhanced by doing so....
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:34 / 14.06.06
For a different perspective, here's my horoscope for this week:

Aries:
You will have valid reasons for unleashing vigorous critiques in the coming week. For best results, however, I suggest that you dress them up in fine language. Your complaints will be more likely to have a cathartic effect if you make them witty and even a bit florid. To get in the right mood, spend some time with the Random Shakespeare Insult Generator. Here are a few, all lifted from the work of The Bard. (1) "Thou jarring motley-minded pignut!" (2) "Thou cockered beef-witted measle!" (3) "Thou unmuzzled dismal-dreaming scut!"
 
 
foolish fat finger
16:23 / 14.06.06
thankyou everyone, I am finding this thread very interesting. thankyou for the different translations, Grant and Iamus- I actually prefer them to the one I found. I knew a guy who had at one time, 11 different translations of the Tao Te Ching- which may be considered to be overdoing it... but it is interesting (for me) how different translations bring certain verses into sharp relief...

I like Chuang Tzu as well, especially the essential teachings.. (inner chapters?) I find him most amusing...
 
 
Ticker
16:42 / 14.06.06
sort of thread rotty, pardon me.

Illmatic says:
Mind you if you posted it in The Temple, Gods only know if you’d get a better response (I’m really bored with that forum right now).


Perhaps if you post a thread regarding something that interests you we can jump start the forum? Go on, wheel out some topic that you've always wanted to talk about but didn't because of politeness or some other restraint. Get your weird on!
 
 
illmatic
20:18 / 14.06.06
/moany rot

I don't know, xk, I kind of feel I've talked about everything I'm going to talk about in the Temple. Some posters in Headshop has expressed frustration with having to re-explain stuff to new people over and over again, and I feel the same way. Also, people tend to post just to chat or show off how clever they (think they) are without having any experiential assimilation of experiences to back it up with. See Jihadreflection.

You are a rare exception to this rule and I think you're contributions there have been really excellent.

Cheers for your concern!

end/moany rot
 
  
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